BruceM Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 I’m at a time when I need to consider replacing my rear tyres due to their age. Rather than sticking standard van tyres on the (16”) wheels I’m contemplating fitting 3PMSF tyres and then next year replacing the front tyres with 3PMSF to allow us to use the van out of season in some of the countries that have winter tyres regulations (see https://www.continental-tires.com/transport/knowhow/european-winter-regulations ) . The advantage of using this spec of tyre is self evident. I’d be interested in knowing though if there are any downsides I should be aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Continental, Vredestein and Nokian make 4 season tyres with 3pmfs marking. Unless you're an avid skier in constant search of fresh snow dumps, that's the tyre to get. A proper winter tyre is overkill for you brits and will also be destroyed in the summer. *Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear, Uniroyal, Falken and a few others also make all season tyres but looking at their thread patterns they're more summer tyres with a few extra sipes. The ones above reverse the logic and wouldn in theory be better on snow. I don't have personal experience with any of them as I'm one of those who look for performance on snow above all else in a winter tyre so use two sets and change with seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 On my 4x4 I now use Michelin 'Cross Climate', they are a very good tyre for all seasons and have the rating you require, I'm considering them for the van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 15, 2019 Author Share Posted October 15, 2019 Any views on Hankook? I see that I can get the correctly spec’ed tyre (size, loading, 3PMFS etc) for £103 fitted each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Presumably the RW06 model? That would be a winter tyre and as such would not be advisable for use in the summer. If you use a winter tyre at high temperatures you will wear it out very fast and also sacrifice any potential benefits in the following winter season as the rubber hardens. Based on my experience with using winter tyres all year round (they were too worn out to be winter legal next season), a winter tyre used during summer will wear out about twice as fast as a summer tyre. Not to mention the substantially inferior driving characteristics. Also, it seems the model has been around since at least 2010 and was rated as satisfactory in Promobil test: Snow: 7,8 / 10 pointsWet: 7,3 / 10Dry: 6,1 / 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 15, 2019 Author Share Posted October 15, 2019 spirou - 2019-10-15 3:46 PM . . .Based on my experience with using winter tyres all year round (they were too worn out to be winter legal next season), a winter tyre used during summer will wear out about twice as fast as a summer tyre. Not to mention the substantially inferior driving characteristics. Hmmm . . this brings up my original question – ie what are the disadvantages. So taking Germany as an example, 3PMSF tyres will be required on all wheels. So what do other motorhomers do? Are people actually using two sets of wheels (Winter/Summer) or are they accepting that their winter tyres will wear quicker in the summer and if so by how much over an annual mileage of say 6,000 miles? And yes - it was the Hankook RW06 I Iooked at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 I drive quire a few miles each year in the van, typically 15k miles, and now use all seasion/winter tyres all year round, hot and cold countries.Tyres used, Toyo HA9 winter, Nokian Weatherproof all seasion, Continental Van Contact 4 seasion. These tyres will wear faster than summer tyres and they cannot be considered as winter tyres once down to 4mmCompared to the summer tyres used, for one year,, Michelin Agilis ( summer tyre), there was no noticeable difference in summer conditions on normal road surfaces between the summer and winter tyres. On wet grass, mud, snow the Mitchelen tyres were poor performers.With a set of winter/all seasion tyres you should see around 20k miles before reaching the 4mm limit.Of the 3 makes I have used I rate the Nokian Weatherproof as the best performer and the Continental the worst. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 In the alpine countries those of us who use their MH in winter, will most commonly have two sets. Those who only drive around when there's no snow forecast and don't care at all about skiing, use all season tyres. I would guess the latter category is most applicable to you as well? Unlike in a car, you're likely not being forced to drive around when there is snow on the road. You can just stay put for a few hours or days. But, since the temperatures are still low, there's possible icing and the occasional snow/ice covered parking lot to negotiate around. Since you asked about downsides of a winter tyre during summer... substantially worse wear, substantially worse stopping distance, substantially worse cornering. The rubber compound is simply too soft for summer temperatures. A winter tyre in summer is about as bad as a summer tyre on snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 mikefitz - 2019-10-15 5:16 PM I drive quire a few miles each year in the van, typically 15k miles, and now use all seasion/winter tyres all year round, hot and cold countries. Tyres used, Toyo HA9 winter, Nokian Weatherproof all seasion, Continental Van Contact 4 seasion. These tyres will wear faster than summer tyres and they cannot be considered as winter tyres once down to 4mm Compared to the summer tyres used, for one year,, Michelin Agilis ( summer tyre), there was no noticeable difference in summer conditions on normal road surfaces between the summer and winter tyres. On wet grass, mud, snow the Mitchelen tyres were poor performers. With a set of winter/all seasion tyres you should see around 20k miles before reaching the 4mm limit. Of the 3 makes I have used I rate the Nokian Weatherproof as the best performer and the Continental the worst. Mike You state that Michelin Agilis are 'Summer Tyres'. The Agilis Camping are actually Mud and Snow rated, the plain Commercial variant is not M&S rated however. I believe there is also the Agilis 'Alpin' variant which is a Winter tyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 15, 2019 Share Posted October 15, 2019 Agilis camping are m+s, however they are not winter legal (in some countries) as they don't have the 3PMFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 We don't have a van at the moment, but I have Michelin Cross Climate tyres on the family car because we travel across France and Germany at all times of the year, They are good for about 30,000 miles on the front and about 40,000 miles on the rears. I no longer race or rally so I never drive on the limit, in any case a Skoda Fabia diesel Combi is not the car I'd chose for that, but I have no reason to think that they are in any way inferior to any other tyres I have used over the years, and would recommend them for what they are intended to do. AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefitz Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Perhaps I should have been clearer on the summer Michelin tyres in my post. The tyres were Michelin Agilis + (Green X), summer rated van tyres. Very hard wearing but poor grip in difficult conditions. Link to My Tyres Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 been running on winter tyres all year for the last 9 years on Burstner motorhome Travel to the Alps in March- May and in Autumn . Seldom need to use chains. Change the whole set after 4/5 years and have had no issues on performance or exist wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Michelin “CrossClimate” tyres are now marketed in sizes some of which would be suitable for motorhome usage https://www.broughtyferrytyres.co.uk/Tyre/Details/Michelin/Agilis+CrossClimate A potential disadvantage is that these tyres have a directional tread pattern, so - in the event of a puncture - there’s a 50:50 chance that a spare wheel carrying a CrossClimate tyre will be inappropriate for mounting in place of the wheel that has the punctured tyre. It’s worth being aware that it’s not that unusual for genuine ‘winter’ tyres to have a directional tread pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Mikey - 2019-10-19 12:02 PM Change the whole set after 4/5 years and have had no issues on performance or exist wear. You obviously don't drive much. We go through a set, both winter and summer, in 3 years. The winter tyre especially will be worn out to near legal minimum by end of 3rd winter and thus barely adequate in snow. So over 2mm per year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 spirou - 2019-10-19 12:11 PM You obviously don't drive much. We go through a set, both winter and summer, in 3 years. The winter tyre especially will be worn out to near legal minimum by end of 3rd winter and thus barely adequate in snow. So over 2mm per year What is your current estimated annual mileage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevec176 Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 One thing not mentioned is your van insurance, are you tyres suitable? There was a news article that some insurance companies either wouldn't insure cars with winter tyres or they would increase the premium, best check before doing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 BruceM - 2019-10-19 3:07 PM What is your current estimated annual mileage? We recently changed but the old van went through 145000km in just under 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 spirou - 2019-10-19 8:23 PM BruceM - 2019-10-19 3:07 PM What is your current estimated annual mileage? We recently changed but the old van went through 145000km in just under 5 years. OK, that’s about 18,000 miles a year and I think you indicated that your winter tyres needed changing about every 3 years so that means that you would be getting about 54,000 miles out of them. Consequently, if I cover about 6,000 miles a year, with the caveat that summer usage may cause abnormal wear and a requirement for early replacement, I would expect to get about 9 years out of them. So on the face of it all year winter tyres such as Nokian Weatherproof all Season (3PMSF) may be viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 BruceM - 2019-10-20 3:33 PM spirou - 2019-10-19 8:23 PM BruceM - 2019-10-19 3:07 PM What is your current estimated annual mileage? We recently changed but the old van went through 145000km in just under 5 years. OK, that’s about 18,000 miles a year and I think you indicated that your winter tyres needed changing about every 3 years so that means that you would be getting about 54,000 miles out of them. Consequently, if I cover about 6,000 miles a year, with the caveat that summer usage may cause abnormal wear and a requirement for early replacement, I would expect to get about 9 years out of them. So on the face of it all year winter tyres such as Nokian Weatherproof all Season (3PMSF) may be viable. Couple of points, you have doubled the mileage Spirou gets from each set of tyres, so expect closer to 4 1/2 years, and the Nokians are 'all season' so summer wear won't be too bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 colin - 2019-10-20 4:01 PM Couple of points, you have doubled the mileage Spirou gets from each set of tyres . . . Hmm - what did I miss? 145,000 km in 5 years = 29,000 km in 1 year = 18,125 miles per year which over 3 years of viable usage is 54,375 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 BruceM - 2019-10-20 5:17 PM colin - 2019-10-20 4:01 PM Couple of points, you have doubled the mileage Spirou gets from each set of tyres . . . Hmm - what did I miss? 145,000 km in 5 years = 29,000 km in 1 year = 18,125 miles per year which over 3 years of viable usage is 54,375 miles. spirou - 2019-10-15 3:46 PM Based on my experience with using winter tyres all year round (they were too worn out to be winter legal next season), Plus the tyres where swapped so the three sets of winter tyres where on for maybe half the mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 145000km in 5 years using summer and winter sets. Of the 29k per year, I would estimate 10-15k were made on winter tyres and 15-20k on summer. Round it out to a lifetime of 40k for winter tyres (still enough thread for summer, not legal in winter) and 50-60 for summer tyres. If using winter tyres all year round I would expect 30k would be about max before they are worn beyond winter requirements. Having used winter tyres on the car with 5mm of thread left before the summer, I was left with 3mm by the time I changed them ahead of next winter. That would have been about 1mm/10000km. But it's not just the mm that are a problem. The blocks/sipes were shredded in places, basically falling apart. That would have happened even with new tyres, making them much less useful in winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceM Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 Thanks all. Real world factual information of this type is just what I needed to make an informed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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