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Been reading an article and watching videos on youtube regarding Battleborn batteries, made in America. they are Lithium instead of lead acid. An 100AH 12V battery wil lset you back around $950 approx £750.00 however unlike conventional leisure batteries there DOD is 100% of the capacity so on a 100AH battery you can use 100AH. And this will provide you with 3000 cycles, more impressive is the fact that if you only use 50% of the DOD you will get at least 5000 cycles, they claim to have exceeded this in their lab test.

 

https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/12v-lifepo4-deep-cycle-battery/

 

I for one would surely purchase one if they were available in the UK as yes expensive upfront cost but compared to the recent Varta LFD 90 battery which I purchased for just over £100 recently with 200 cycles. And this is one of the best available I know there is one on Alpha Batteries for £139.99 with 360 cycles at 50% at DOD

 

12V 100AH EXIDE ET650 SEMI TRACTION LEISURE BATTERY

 

So even this one you would possibly change 14 times compared to the Battleborn one at a cost of £1960.

so price wise £750 is not so bad. And they claim to be able to lower that price as there production becomes higher, bringing down the price to around the £500 mark.

 

Just wondered what others views are of these batteries on here.

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I think you need to read between the lines on the advert you have seen.

If a 100Ah battery takes 10 hours to discharge and 10 hours to recharge with a 4 hour rest in between (at present the method for testing Leisure batteries cyclic ability) then you are talking of one day per cycle.

If you divide their 5,000 cycle figure claimed to have been achieved in the 'Lab', by 365 that is 13 years 'continuous' testing.

 

Something tells me that that isn't likely when the technology is so new? I bet the company hasn't been involved in Lithium's for more than a few years?

 

 

I have a Lithium Ion powered Moto G phone that is about 2.5 years old. It started off giving me about 4 days on each charge, After about 18 months I was getting just 2 days. I now get just under a day.

 

That means it is down to a quarter of capacity in that time. Equate that to a Leisure battery delivering just 25Ah out of it's rated 100Ah and you can see that it ceased to be anywhere near useful a long time ago but I put up with it because you can't change the battery.

It has probably averaged less than 130 cycles per year, just 95 in the first year, so at about 180 cycles before it reached useful 'End Of Life' is actually way off the mark of the claims for Lithium Ion.

 

My previous phone battery degraded the same way, as did the the one before that and my Laptop battery, etc.

 

I know Lifepo4 uses slightly more advanced technology, but so far, in my experience, no Lithium technology has achieved any where near the exaggerated claims made. Even Lifpo4 batteries in a Dewalt gun didn't last long.

 

Those companies with more integrity tend to claim 'just' 1,500 cycle life, but say that discharging it to a true 100% will damage the battery. Deep discharges and higher temperatures can drop those 1,500 cycles dramatically.

 

 

Tesla Cars Lithiums are Water cooled and while there have been problems with battery lifetime, they seem more reliable than most. Nissan Leaf batteries that are air cooled with lots of reports of capacity dropping below 80% before they should.

20% loss of range/capacity when it isn't great to start with is significant and is regarded as 'End Of Life' of a Lithium battery.

Imagine how well cooled the Lithiums will be in that battery casing in your advert?.

 

The experts say that dropping a Lithium to 100% will spell disaster.

When you consider the essential battery management systems built into the good batteries constantly draw power, they self discharge quite quickly.

So left unattended for a month or two will cost dear, and what do motorhomes spend a lot of time doing?

£2,000 for two 100Ah Lithiums is a lot of money to lose because you 'forget' to put them on charge.

 

Note that LifePo4 really, really don't like being constantly charged by Solar or Mains.

All the good info we have seen says to disconnect the charger completely once charged, see the NDS PDF's for examples..

 

 

Auto Express reported a drop of about 15% capacity/range when the the first bit of Winter cold weather arrived as most battery technologies have the optimum capacity around 25 degrees. At zero degrees some capacity is lost.

 

 

You will also note that the advert you have found talks about their 'fairy tale' 3,000 cycle rate being achieved at 0.5c, which is a very low charge/discharge rate, yet the blurb also claims a really, really high 100Amp discharge capability.

A 100amp charge and discharge when 0.5c is the 'ideal' for long life is set for a very short life and clearly misleading.

 

But can you imagine a 100amp discharge through the existing wiring in your vehicle?

Come to that, how about a 100amp Alternator charge?

 

 

Lithiums are brilliant and have revolutionised our technology, but they have some issues that are at odds with Motorhome installation, and I haven't even started on the special chargers and Alternators needed.

 

I would wait until motorhomes have the infrastructure in place, a 300amp, 14.8v Alternator, fat wiring, timers to enable Solar/mains charger to operate efficiently, alarm systems that warn of low battery to avoid a potential £2,000 cost, etc.

 

Even then you should expect the Lithiums 'realistic' 1,000 cycles at £1,000 to be bettered by 10 Varta LFD90's installed one after the other to deliver 50 year lives and 2,000 cycles for the same £1,000 outlay.

 

I read the other day that Lithiums achieve maximum life when charged to only 85% and not discharged below 20%, which makes a mockery of being able to draw out 100Ah in each cycle.

I don't know how true that is but wouldn't be surprised judging by my phone batteries.

 

Lithium give shorter life £ for £ than the best wet acid technology, are intolerant of errors, need special wiring and chargers, temperature issues, very careful management to achieve any reasonable lifetime, are a fire risk as Lithium is highly combustable, etc.

 

And we haven't even compared them to the very special Victron Energy batteries that are GUARANTEED to discharge down to 100% and still give long life. Or the Victron Gels that give 2,500 cycles, all without needing special attention or mods?

 

 

 

 

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Personally I wouldn't touch lithium batteries for a motorhome as I too, but as a total non expert, consider the technology unproven in the long and even for the medium term.

That said I have a cordless drill with lithium batteries and at 4 years old it still seems to work well and charge and hold it's charge, or maybe I am just lucky?

I have run petrol electric hybrid cars for many years and have not noticed any fall off of battery performance or mpg over the years, but then with a hybrid the petrol engine does most of the work, but mpg is definitely lower in the winter than the summer so it does not like cold. Then again I have never owned one more than 4 years old, so maybe I have just been lucky?

How long do you intend keeping the van? A twenty year battery life, even if it were true, is far longer than most people keep a van and if you changed vans you would either lose your very expensive battery or need to change it and it's charging regime to suit your new van.

Far easier and probably better vfm methinks to stick with well proven lead acid at least for the immediate future?

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In essence, what I've found out so far regarding LiFePO batteries is cycle them between 20 & 80% (SOC or DOD, doesn't matter), store long term at 50%, never ever charge when cold (below freezing) or use in any way when hot (say, desert in the summer).

 

So, in reality they give you 60% usable capacity, are more tolerant to large currents and give a somewhat longer cycle life...but at what cost? No doubt there are situations when it makes perfect sense, but not for most people.

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  • 5 months later...

Well I am from a electronic engineering background, having in the past established a repair business and then a manufacturing business. Having taken an extended break from work I am back and have just started as a distributor for lithium phosphate batteries, initially targeting the leisure industry.

 

http://www.ksenergy.co.uk

 

This is great as I am a keen motorhomer, and practice what you preach as they say! Having invested an awful lot of money, I can assure you I ensured I knew a thing or two about them before I did and tested all the pre-production samples to destruction too!

 

These batteries do not contain any lead, the chemical elements they do contain are easily environmentally dispersed. (listed here https://files.uk2sitebuilder.com/44/76/4476414d-f45d-4b43-aaa0-f1fd907a2b79.pdf ) Most of the benefits and specifications dramatically improve the manufacturing carbon footprint too. I cannot really explain the chap who is so consistently negative on them and he is stating opinion as if it is fact which is never really very clever. So just to counter some of his miss information I'll add some facts.

 

The 100% DOD I'm quoting and most reputable brand should quote would not be fully discharging the cells to zero volts, but rather discharging to its minimum voltage (2.65V). When this voltage is detected within the cells the battery management system shuts down, safeguarding further discharge which could cause longer term damage. Note also, from fully charged to discharged within this, the entire quoted capacity is measured!

 

The battery management system typically uses a maximum of 50 micro amps (50 millionths of an amp) so it could consume 0.00005A. So that's going to eat half an amp (0.5% of a typical KS-100 lithium leisure battery) of your batteries capacity every 10,000 hours or 1 year and 50 days! And what about 0.5C, jeez that 50Amps on one of our KS-100's! Unless your permanently drawing huge amounts of current (unlikely even with an inverter), how an earth can you claim 0.5C is so little? ...strange.

 

Then there is that thing about the charger. Lithium chargers do not require complicated float charge and bulk charge algorithms so in fact would be simpler (and cheaper) than lead acid. A conventional charger or alternator holds the batteries at 14,4 Volts when fully charged, this is fine for our batteries as we have more cells than the quoted capacity to help achieve our quoted capacity and the cells cannot overcharged at this level and can be permanently left at this level. There is no requirement for complicated timers or chargers, on the contrary!

 

Then we have this life cycle argument, ie. how does one state a life of thousands of cycles as you would need 13 years of history! Well that's pretty simple, one can model it along with your confidence levels based upon several months of data in most decent statistical packages such a "R" We therefore have a an excellent idea how these get used in the real world and how they age, which is why we can offer a 10 year warranty!

 

I think i've covered most of his miss information, other than safety. Lithium phosphate batteries rarely if ever achieve thermal runaway (unlike the lithium polymer which I assume where that incorrect statement came from). So although the lithium powder inside will burn at high temperature, its not going to self combust in the case of a fault. In Fact we have crushed these and put nails through them! On the contrary, your lead acid battery can vent and will produce nasty explosive gases in the event of a fault or accident.

 

I do not really want to make the post to long, however when you look in the mane, at all of the combined benefits as a whole, they really make a sensible choice, given the fact that manufacturing processes have led to a significant falls in retail price, a trend that's unlikely to reverse and given the environmental benefits too, I suspect he had better get used to them because he will be seeing a lot more of them in the future!

 

Think that covers most things, hope that helps.

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Neal Morris - 2019-06-19 2:15 PM

 

Well I am from a electronic engineering background, having in the past established a repair business and then a manufacturing business. Having taken an extended break from work I am back and have just started as a distributor for lithium phosphate batteries, initially targeting the leisure industry.

 

http://www.ksenergy.co.uk

 

This is great as I am a keen motorhomer, and practice what you preach as they say! Having invested an awful lot of money, I can assure you I ensured I knew a thing or two about them before I did and tested all the pre-production samples to destruction too!

 

These batteries do not contain any lead, the chemical elements they do contain are easily environmentally dispersed. (listed here https://files.uk2sitebuilder.com/44/76/4476414d-f45d-4b43-aaa0-f1fd907a2b79.pdf ) Most of the benefits and specifications dramatically improve the manufacturing carbon footprint too. I cannot really explain the chap who is so consistently negative on them and he is stating opinion as if it is fact which is never really very clever. So just to counter some of his miss information I'll add some facts.

 

The 100% DOD I'm quoting and most reputable brand should quote would not be fully discharging the cells to zero volts, but rather discharging to its minimum voltage (2.65V). When this voltage is detected within the cells the battery management system shuts down, safeguarding further discharge which could cause longer term damage. Note also, from fully charged to discharged within this, the entire quoted capacity is measured!

 

The battery management system typically uses a maximum of 50 micro amps (50 millionths of an amp) so it could consume 0.00005A. So that's going to eat half an amp (0.5% of a typical KS-100 lithium leisure battery) of your batteries capacity every 10,000 hours or 1 year and 50 days! And what about 0.5C, jeez that 50Amps on one of our KS-100's! Unless your permanently drawing huge amounts of current (unlikely even with an inverter), how an earth can you claim 0.5C is so little? ...strange.

 

Then there is that thing about the charger. Lithium chargers do not require complicated float charge and bulk charge algorithms so in fact would be simpler (and cheaper) than lead acid. A conventional charger or alternator holds the batteries at 14,4 Volts when fully charged, this is fine for our batteries as we have more cells than the quoted capacity to help achieve our quoted capacity and the cells cannot overcharged at this level and can be permanently left at this level. There is no requirement for complicated timers or chargers, on the contrary!

 

Then we have this life cycle argument, ie. how does one state a life of thousands of cycles as you would need 13 years of history! Well that's pretty simple, one can model it along with your confidence levels based upon several months of data in most decent statistical packages such a "R" We therefore have a an excellent idea how these get used in the real world and how they age, which is why we can offer a 10 year warranty!

 

I think i've covered most of his miss information, other than safety. Lithium phosphate batteries rarely if ever achieve thermal runaway (unlike the lithium polymer which I assume where that incorrect statement came from). So although the lithium powder inside will burn at high temperature, its not going to self combust in the case of a fault. In Fact we have crushed these and put nails through them! On the contrary, your lead acid battery can vent and will produce nasty explosive gases in the event of a fault or accident.

 

I do not really want to make the post to long, however when you look in the mane, at all of the combined benefits as a whole, they really make a sensible choice, given the fact that manufacturing processes have led to a significant falls in retail price, a trend that's unlikely to reverse and given the environmental benefits too, I suspect he had better get used to them because he will be seeing a lot more of them in the future!

 

Think that covers most things, hope that helps.

 

Nice advertisement. Do I believe someone who is selling or do I believe a trusted independent. I think I will go with Alan

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Guest pelmetman
ChrisD - 2019-06-19 8:00 PM

 

And me. I'm sticking with Allen's advices.

 

Me too ;-) ........

 

I've used rechargeable tools for decades :-| ........

 

They rarely lasted a few years regardless of being expensive or cheap *-) .........

 

 

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Well... Allan did miss the point on fire risk regarding LiFe(Y)PO chemistry used in such applications compared to Li-ion batteries in mobile phones, which does undermine the credibility of the rest of the text somewhat. However, much of the rest is hard to deny.

 

Long term real life experience in MHs is still very limited and quite often somewhat disappointing or at least far removed from the claimed benefits or with many caveats.

 

Yes, they are (far?) superior in certain cases, but also a likely headache for many when released to the mass market because they add several levels of complexity to a population that is known to abuse the far less problematic and cheaper lead batteries, mostly due to ignorance of everything electric.

 

 

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Guest pelmetman
spirou - 2019-06-19 8:12 PM

 

Yes, they are (far?) superior in certain cases, but also a likely headache for many when released to the mass market because they add several levels of complexity to a population that is known to abuse the far less problematic and cheaper lead batteries, mostly due to ignorance of everything electric.

 

 

As in folk should just expect stuff to work as advertised? ;-) .......

 

 

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I’m with Neal on this one. Lithium clearly has so many advantages over lead-acid. There are many really good research papers available on the internet that compare lithium to lead-acid, all of them favouring lithium over lead-acid.

 

Lithium batteries are no longer the future - they are the present. It’s time to put those old lead-acid batteries in the recycler like we did with the old wooden wagon wheels from the same era.

 

A

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ageingandrew - 2019-06-20 10:04 AM

 

I’m with Neal on this one. Lithium clearly has so many advantages over lead-acid. There are many really good research papers available on the internet that compare lithium to lead-acid, all of them favouring lithium over lead-acid.

 

Lithium batteries are no longer the future - they are the present.

 

"""It’s time to put those old lead-acid batteries in the recycler like we did with the old wooden wagon wheels from the same era""".

 

 

A

 

Then why is Tessla trialling Lead batteries in it's new charging stations?

 

 

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There are new battery chemistries nearly every month. The question is what becomes commercialy viable. There's a chemistry institute a few minutes from my house that announced new, revolutionary, etc. new technology some years ago. They were talking going industrial scale with Renault, Honda and others yet I haven't seen anything real yet. Not even a mention.

 

Point being, anything announced now will take at least a decade to appear in first real world prototypes and probably another decade before you can buy it. And some that do appear in production just quietly disappear, like zync bromine flow batteries that sound great for large energy storage systems, but haven't caught on.

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In reply to fjmike, aandy, ChrisD, and pelmetman, Mickt:

 

That's fine, however like myself, Alan is posting for two identical reasons, 1) He has a business to promote 2) He is clearly like myself interested in all things electrical and electronic (although I do not want to put words into his mouth) and perhaps his is not!

 

spirou pointed out the safety aspect which undermined the credibility of Alans comments, however I still think its the 0.5C. What he is suggesting is in a typical set-up drawing around 50 Amps is hardly a lot ! Really? I mean REALLY ! That would blow the fuse in just about every motorhome master battery fuse out there ! That aside I still cant really explain why he is so biased, perhaps it is just fear of progress and change?

 

Back in the real world where people actually do research rather than voice opinion, I thought I would write a blog entry about Lithium cell life under extreme conditions which you should of course not consider following, however the research does at least give some confidence I believe:

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/blog/consequences-of-abusing-your-lithium-lifepo4-leisure-batteries

 

Enjoy

 

 

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Neal Morris - 2019-06-22 7:34 PM

 

In reply to fjmike, aandy, ChrisD, and pelmetman, Mickt:

 

That's fine, however like myself, Alan is posting for two identical reasons, 1) He has a business to promote 2) He is clearly like myself interested in all things electrical and electronic (although I do not want to put words into his mouth) and perhaps his is not!

 

spirou pointed out the safety aspect which undermined the credibility of Alans comments, however I still think its the 0.5C. What he is suggesting is in a typical set-up drawing around 50 Amps is hardly a lot ! Really? I mean REALLY ! That would blow the fuse in just about every motorhome master battery fuse out there ! That aside I still cant really explain why he is so biased, perhaps it is just fear of progress and change?

 

Back in the real world where people actually do research rather than voice opinion, I thought I would write a blog entry about Lithium cell life under extreme conditions which you should of course not consider following, however the research does at least give some confidence I believe:

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/blog/consequences-of-abusing-your-lithium-lifepo4-leisure-batteries

 

Enjoy

 

 

I suggest you read some of Alan's posts, unlike you he doesn't sell batteries . Don't insult people when trying to promote your business it tends to backfire ??

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Neal Morris - 2019-06-22 7:34 PM

 

In reply to fjmike, aandy, ChrisD, and pelmetman, Mickt:

 

That's fine, however like myself, Alan is posting for two identical reasons, 1) He has a business to promote 2) He is clearly like myself interested in all things electrical and electronic (although I do not want to put words into his mouth) and perhaps his is not!

 

spirou pointed out the safety aspect which undermined the credibility of Alans comments, however I still think its the 0.5C. What he is suggesting is in a typical set-up drawing around 50 Amps is hardly a lot ! Really? I mean REALLY ! That would blow the fuse in just about every motorhome master battery fuse out there ! That aside I still cant really explain why he is so biased, perhaps it is just fear of progress and change?

 

Back in the real world where people actually do research rather than voice opinion, I thought I would write a blog entry about Lithium cell life under extreme conditions which you should of course not consider following, however the research does at least give some confidence I believe:

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/blog/consequences-of-abusing-your-lithium-lifepo4-leisure-batteries

 

Enjoy

 

 

Wow Neal, you appear out of the blue to flog your batteries / knowledge and then insult a long standing (terminally ill) stalward of this forum. Not the best marketing strategy.

 

Allan has no vested interest in sharing his experience and opinion. Technically I can't challenge either of you, and I'm sure Allan is not right 100% of the time, nobody is, but I respect someone who has stuck with this forum for years and offered good advice in good faith, for nothing .......

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Neal Morris - 2019-06-22 8:34 PM

 

Back in the real world where people actually do research rather than voice opinion, I thought I would write a blog entry about Lithium cell life under extreme conditions which you should of course not consider following, however the research does at least give some confidence I believe:

https://www.ksenergy.co.uk/blog/consequences-of-abusing-your-lithium-lifepo4-leisure-batteries

 

 

Thanks for the link to the study. Real world use seems to suggest the high temperature degradation could be even worse: https://www.technomadia.com/2015/02/living-the-lithium-lifestyle-3-5-year-lithium-rv-battery-update/

 

They have observed that a 10C (18F) temperature increase over a baseline room temperature of ~23C (74F) results in the number of lifetime cycles being cut in half. This means at 33C (91F) usable battery life will be cut in half, and presumably to a quarter at 43C (109F). This is VERY substantial.

 

To me, that information alone disqualifies LFP batteries (at current prices) from use in a MH for anyone spending summers south of UK. We have temperatures near or well above 30 nearly every day from may to october. Now, lead batteries also experience significant degradation in heat, but the 100-200€ every 2-6 years is much easier to swallow than 900+ in 5-? years.

 

PS you're likely not aware of Allan's health condition so just a suggestion, take it easy. As you can see from comments above you're not making friends.

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Neal Morris - 2019-06-22 7:34 PM

 

Back in the real world where people actually do research rather than voice opinion,

 

 

I hope you are better at the technical aspects of your business than your are on the PR side.

 

I don't know if anyone on here is thinking of switching to lithium, but if they are I suspect you have just alienated a number of potential customers.

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Thank to everyone for posting,

I am feeling quite good today, struggling with the pain, but moving about which is quite good when the Palliative Care team gave me 2 - 4 weeks at the beginning of May. Obviously not long left, but I will keep fighting.

 

 

On the subject of Lithium safety, Most Lithium batteries are stressed by vibration, heat or mechanical damage which can cause them to burst into flames

While the trace elements added to Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries makes them less likely to suffer internal failure and become unstable and break down than Lithium Manganese or Lithium Cobalt, fact is that Lithium is a very high energy density material that when it does combust, it does so with a ferocity and temperatures unseen by any other mainstream battery material.

 

In my post above I wrote, " are a fire risk as Lithium is highly combustable", which I challenge anyone to prove wrong.

 

 

 

Neal Morris, I wrote above, "Lithiums are brilliant and have revolutionised our technology".

Yet you write in response, " I cannot really explain the chap who is so consistently negative on them and he is stating opinion as if it is fact which is never really very clever".

 

 

You also write, "Having invested an awful lot of money, I can assure you I ensured I knew a thing or two about them before I did and tested all the pre-production samples to destruction too!".

 

I find this interesting as the British/European Standard currently used for testing motorhome batteries requires a 4 hour delay between each discharge/recharge cycle, so eight hours total.

Add on the many hours for each actual charge and then many hours for each discharge and that almost certainly takes longer than a day.

So assuming you have only been into dabbling in Lithum batteries for 3 years that would mean they achieved about 365 days x 3 = 1095 cycles?

Or have you been destruction testing them for longer than this period?

 

 

 

I am not against Lithium batteries, as stated above, but I don't think they are suitable for the motorhome environment to which many are being targeted.

 

Some of the adverts, even by motorhome specialist retailers, quote two 100Ah Lithiums can be charged and discharged at 200Amps,

The same retailers are saying they are perfect for big Inverters. All the Lithium installs we saw had big Inverters.

 

There are temperature issues, both at zero degrees (when they should never be charged) and at the 50 degree plus temperatures the cells will run at when the outside temp is just 30.

 

Tessla have had most issues with battery packs where the car has stood unused for months. What do many motorhomes do during the Winter?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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@NealMorris, Neal, you have really opened a can of worms here. I guess your mistake is expecting people to be open to adopting new and better technologies. Instead you have found the uncertainty, doubt, gossip, rumours and downright misinformation abounding. There are some who will never give up their dirty, hazardous, low DoD, poorly cycling wet cells. Still, when was thoroughly logical and objective research ever a substitute for whatever “some bloke down the pub says”?

 

Lithium batteries are probably not suitable to all applications. For example, for a caravan that only ever uses EHU, then lithium will probably be an extravagance until prices drop further. However, for motorhomers intending to “off-grid” for any substantial period; maybe use an inverter to charge laptops, run coffee machines, then lithium probably makes perfect sense unless you have your lead-acid battery supplier on speed dial.

 

The proliferation of lithium batteries supporting solar installations, mobile phone base stations and many more applications is testimony to their suitability as replacement for lead-acid, as is the number of evaluations of lithium battery technology as drop-in replacement for lead acid batteries in military vehicles.

 

For anyone “investing” in LFD or EFB batteries and intending to use an inverter there is video at https://www.vanbitz.com/lithium-batteries/ in which Charles Stirling explains the how Lithium and lead acid perform under certain test conditions.

 

A

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