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X250 Engine earth fault


euroserv

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Hello Campers,

 

We have had some strange electrical faults over the last few weeks and I would like to bring the symptoms to your attention, and a fix for it!

 

Our X250 vans dating from 2007 have now covered betreen 150 and 200,000 miles and while your vehicles will probably never reach that sort of mileage (unless adapted for space exploration) I think that the fault is just as likely due to age as mileage. It could potentially affect any X250 with any engine fitted.

 

Symptom.

 

Engine idle speed alters from normal 850 to 900 rpm to 1400 to 1500rpm. Engine management light may come on. Often the fault will only appear when the headlights are on.

 

Cure.

 

This is a typical sign that the alternator output is too low and the engine is increasing revs to counter this. Many vehicles do this, but with the X250 it is not the case unless the battery warning light is also illuminated.

What is actually happening is that the earth strap to the gearbox is offering too high a resistance and is not allowing the ECU enough power, particularly when other devices are pulling more current (such as the lights), and this causes the ECU to try to overcome the problem while also going into protection mode with engine output.

 

We have removed and cleaned several of these earth straps and have not been able to improve things. The only solution has been to fit a new earth cable, which we have had made up for us by a local auto electrician. The original Fiat cable is of poor quality braided cable; exposed to the elements. Our new ones are plastic coated and have solved all of the problems encountered so far. (6 out of 20 vehicles of that age)

 

In summary:

 

If you think you have a problem, seek out an auto electrician and have the earth cable replaced. Do not waste time and money going to Fiat dealers or anywhere else for that matter because they will try all manner of tests and fixes before arriving at the same conclusion.

 

This is not intended to scare you, but I did promise to keep you up to date with problems that we encounter with our fleet.

At worst the problem is inconvenient and could prevent starting of the engine and blown battery fuses. There are no safety implications that we have been able to identify.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

Nick

 

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scramblers - 2010-12-02 12:45 PM

 

Hi Nick,

 

An extremely useful post which embodies the essence of a forum like this.

 

Do you know if the Transit have this type of problem?

 

Don't know and frankly don't care. Ford's have plenty of issues but I avoid them like the plague. Had a Transit in yesterday for a new door mirror. Needed a drill to remove old screws! They use shear bolts to fit them for some obscure reason.

 

I don't work for Fiat or Ford, so accept no responsibility for their respective failings. Do I still think the Fiat Ducato is the best van on the road? Definitely. Do I wish there was an alternative that was as well designed with none of the faults? Of course. Is the Merc Sprinter worth twice the money? Of course not. I am about to order another 16 Fiat's.

 

Nick

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spospe - 2010-12-02 12:33 PM

 

Nick

 

Thank you very much for an informative and helpful post. From what you say, it may be as well to replace this strap as a matter of course even before any symptoms appear.

 

Michael

 

For the average camper owner I would say not. We will be modifying all remaining 07 and 08 vans at next services but I really do not think you need to be alarmed; just aware. You will undoubtedly get warning signs before any failure. It is an easy enough job to do with pretty good access from above, so even AA patrols would be able to do something with it. (if you give them a hint!)

 

Nick

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euroserv - 2010-12-02 1:40 PM

 

Ford's have plenty of issues but I avoid them like the plague. Had a Transit in yesterday for a new door mirror. Needed a drill to remove old screws! They use shear bolts to fit them for some obscure reason.

 

 

The reason for the shear bolts is to make it difficult for the light fingered to steal the mirrors.

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Many thanks for the info Nick - it is due to the posting generosity of guys like you on this forum that news/knowledge gets spread around our community for the benefit of others.

 

Well done that man!

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Now, about the weeping crankshaft oil seal on my 1992 Peugeot J5: when can you pop over and replace them...........?)

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spospe - 2010-12-02 4:17 PM

 

euroserv - 2010-12-02 1:40 PM

 

Ford's have plenty of issues but I avoid them like the plague. Had a Transit in yesterday for a new door mirror. Needed a drill to remove old screws! They use shear bolts to fit them for some obscure reason.

 

 

The reason for the shear bolts is to make it difficult for the light fingered to steal the mirrors.

 

There's been a fair amount of discussion about this on the Ford Transit forum, mostly wondering how best to remove the damn things. The explanation given by Nighthawk (probably the ultimate guru on that forum) is that the bolts are one of the design features that allow the Mk 7 Transit to meet Thatcham Category 1 security criteria.

 

The Transit forum can be a surreal and mysterious realm. This is a good 'un...

 

http://fordtransit.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=43405

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We had some electrical problems with our old motorhome on the previous Fiat chassis including only being able to start it with jump leads. Having checked the battery was OK it had all the signs of being an earthing fault. It was a bugger to find but in the end it turned out to be a bad positive connection on the big distribution board that is located on the top of the battery. Took all the connectors off (one at a time) cleaned them up and put some contact lube/cleaner on them. Problem solved and has not come back.
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euroserv - 2010-12-02 1:40 PM

 

scramblers - 2010-12-02 12:45 PM

 

Hi Nick,

 

An extremely useful post which embodies the essence of a forum like this.

 

Do you know if the Transit have this type of problem?

 

Don't know and frankly don't care. Ford's have plenty of issues but I avoid them like the plague. Had a Transit in yesterday for a new door mirror. Needed a drill to remove old screws! They use shear bolts to fit them for some obscure reason.

 

I don't work for Fiat or Ford, so accept no responsibility for their respective failings. Do I still think the Fiat Ducato is the best van on the road? Definitely. Do I wish there was an alternative that was as well designed with none of the faults? Of course. Is the Merc Sprinter worth twice the money? Of course not. I am about to order another 16 Fiat's.

 

Nick

 

Thanks for the info Nick.

 

It's good to see someone in support of the X250. I hired a Transit van a few weeks ago after driving an X250 the Trani was horrible, small cramped cab felt claustrophobic with the small windscreen & high dash, imprecise gear change, very heavy stiff clutch, stiff throttle & this was a new van with only a thousand on the clock.

The X250 cab is a far nicer place to spend a day.

 

 

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scramblers - 2010-12-02 12:45 PM

 

Hi Nick,

 

An extremely useful post which embodies the essence of a forum like this.

 

Do you know if the Transit have this type of problem?

 

When I asked this simple question I did not realise the minefield into which I was stepping. It certainly wasn't the intention to stir up out and out warfare between Fiat and Transit owners.

 

To set the record straight, my first motorhome was Fiat based and we enjoyed it for 7 glorious years. During that time we went through Denmark into Sweden and up to the Norwegian North Cape and back down via Finland. Went through Germany and toured through Slovenia during the 2006 World Cup. Countless journeys through France into Barcelona to visit our son. Travelled 1000's of miles without a hitch or fault from the Fiat. Wonderful machine.

 

The reason to change to a Transit, well it could been a Mercedes or Renault. When we looked to replace our beloved motorhome we were after a good second hand unit from 2007/8. This was of course the time when Fiat were having there problems and the better half strictly forbade a Fiat replacement. After many months and several shows we settled on the Transit based Nexxo.

 

Would I go back to Fiat, yes most certainly but not from 2007/8.

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A good tip Nick and one that might save members money, for a simple fix,as most problems are generally something simple its just finding it, and in most cases paying a dealer/garage who might not know the simple fix.

You may have posted other tips on the X250 or if not can you post any other fixs that you have found?

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Hi

I don't have a X250 but I do have a fiat. First I would like to say thankyou to Nic for sharing his wealth of knowledge. It allowed me to do various things I would otherwise not have done so quickly or even, not at all. Secondly, I have had so many fiat cars, 124, 128, Mirafiori TC, Strada, and even the 127 many moons ago. The reason I list these is that four of them suffered a problem of failing to start. The reason was bad earth. On two the earth strap from engine to chassis was plastic covered multi core cable but it broke within the outer cable. An old mechanic told me to put a jump lead from engine to chassis and try it. He then smiled. It worked. The next task was to replace the strap. What I am really trying to say is that you cannot buy experience, people like Nic get years of experience in a year if you know what I mean.

Please keep passing it on Nic, people like me need you. Have a very merry Christmas, you and your family.

Art

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Guest Peter James
urbanracer - 2010-12-04 7:32 PM

You (Nick) may have posted other tips on the X250 or if not can you post any other fixs that you have found?

 

I have used the search facility to go back over euroserv (Nick's) posts, they are all worth reading. But I agree it would be handy to have his best tips picked out and posted on one thread for reference. Just needs somebody with the time to do it. Nick is obviously a busy person. A project for you perhaps?

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spospe - 2010-12-04 2:15 PM I see that we have degenerated into Transit bashing. A pity, as this thread started out sensible and helpful, but then you could not help yourselves could you?

Now, now, boys!  Enough of this mine's bigger than yours stuff!  They are both bleedin' trucks, for gawds sakes, not Rollers.  Carry on like this, and you'll get all the Merc owners in a lather!  :-)

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  • 6 years later...

Hi Nick,

I know this is an old chestnut, but your name keeps coming up and I think you might be able to advise me.

 

Fiat Ducato 2.3 - 2013

I have a wireless OBD2 device and the app tells me the code is P0124 - "Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch "A" Circuit Intermittent", and I clear the error code before each start up.

 

The engine warning light continues to come on despite me adding an additional braided strap as suggested in a number of postings over the years.

 

I'm convinced this IS the issue as there are no other symptoms suggesting poor running, lack of power or reduced revs etc.

 

The new earth strap runs from the -ve earth stud by the bonnet to a convenient stud on the engine (i'm fairly confident it's connected directly to the engine as my meter shows zero ohms resistance when touching the engine stud with other parts of the engine).

However, when I measure the resistance from the -ve earth stud to the engine, I can't get it to zero ohms .. it consistently reads 0.1 - 0.2 ohms. Is this enough resistance to make a difference, that would fool the sensor to think it's voltage is too low ?

Curiously, due to another issue, I flattened the battery recently and had to jump start from my wife Golf. Guess what .. NO warning light illuminated !!!

Once back on it's own starter battery, the dreaded warning light now reappears.

Can you shed any light on these symptoms please ? Is it just a case of finding a better earth ?

 

Thanks in anticipation.

 

Brian Knight

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I also had different but classic symptoms of faulty earth. My problem was --> start engine, leave at tickover, then revs would increase, then battery light would come on. However if engine rev' after starting all was well.

I fitted new strap and did lots of testing 'knowing' it was an earth fault. Turned out to be the alternator.

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