silverback Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 hi all, i had fitted an extra earth strap to my previous van X250 fiat as suggested on here by various people, so the question is..... should i fit one to the new van X290 ? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 I notice that you asked about earth straps in 2013 https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/-Le-Weekend-marooned-in-Calais-/30484/ and, in a 2016 forum thread, advised someone as follows ...when your van goes in tell them to replace the original earth then tell them to put in another earth strap to a differant part of the chassis, this takes minutes and the cost of 2 earth straps £10 may be... Assuming that the earth strap itself and how it is factory-fitted are the same for Fiat Ducato X290s as for earlier Ducato X250s (and I think that’s the case) then earth-strap-related problems that afflicted X250s are potentially just as likely to afflict X290s. Your Ducato is a 2019 model, so the chances of earth-strap corrosion affecting it in the short term seem pretty small to me, but - if you want to ‘future proof’ yourself - fit an extra earth strap now. After all, if the task only takes minutes and costs no more than a tenner, as you believe it’s a valuable preventive measure, why should you NOT do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spirou Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 The engines are now quite different so who knows if the same issue persists? Earlier X290 (Citroen & Peugeot at least) were 2.0 Euro 6c engines, now they're introducing brand new 2.2 EURO 6d temp. I think FIAT is also introducing new engines. But if you can do it yourself with a tiny amount of money and effort then "why not" seems appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted August 30, 2019 Share Posted August 30, 2019 When the term' fit a new earth strap' is suggested its wise to clean the area its going to be attached to 'down to bare metal' to ensure the best contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 1, 2019 Share Posted September 1, 2019 The early earth straps were plain copper cable and terminals. This is not good practice because copper corrodes. Better quality is tin plated copper (and best is gold plated) So the bad connection was between the cable and the terminal. Tightening the terminal would only solve the problem if it disturbed the connection between the cable and terminal to make contact again. So you could look at the cable and see if its tinned copper. If not,fit one. You can get tinned copper earth straps on ebay. They don't go to the expense of tinning the copper cable and terminals for no reason.. PS: 25mm sq cable is adequate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 John, I've worked with copper all my working days and and after and never known it to 'corrode'. It does tarnish and can become etched if certain acids come in contact with it. Will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Will86 - 2019-09-02 8:57 AM John, I've worked with copper all my working days and and after and never known it to 'corrode'. It does tarnish and can become etched if certain acids come in contact with it. Will So why do they go to the expense of tin (or gold) plating it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Maybe so it doesn't tarnish? B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 When a batch of copper straps are stored for a long time they discolor and can reduce (minutely) their surface conductivity and can look ugly, the conductivity of tin doesn't vary regardless of its shelf life. Gold is a better solution and surprisingly can be cheaper but its unnecessary. At one time I worked with the producers of domestic taps and fittings ... where the facts are that gold plated items are cheaper than standard chrome to produce. I'm only going by my own uses of copper, tin, lead, and gold, search online for better information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 corrode/tarnish call it what you like, the point is that unprotected copper surface can lose its conductivity. Thats why a tinned copper strap is more reliable and I suggest replacing it with one if it isn't fitted already. I would have thought FIAT would have got some better earth straps by now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I thought the issue with the Fiat earth straps was dissimilar metal corrosion between the copper braiding and the steel? end fittings which are crimped on (ie not soldered) resulting in high resistance at the crimp? Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Will86 - 2019-09-02 12:06 PM When a batch of copper straps are stored for a long time they discolor and can reduce (minutely) their surface conductivity . This can be accelerated in certain conditions. In the kitchens of historic houses the National Trust have notices asking visitors not to touch the copper sinks. Even human hands can accelerate the 'corrosion' process, necessitating more frequent cleaning which scours away a bit more of the surface every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Keithl - 2019-09-02 12:22 PM I thought the issue with the Fiat earth straps was dissimilar metal corrosion between the copper braiding and the steel? end fittings which are crimped on (ie not soldered) resulting in high resistance at the crimp? Keith. That may be so. But they work when they are new so it must be some sort of 'corrosion' that will be solved by a tinned copper strap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 John52 - 2019-09-02 12:28 PM This can be accelerated in certain conditions. In the kitchens of historic houses the National Trust have notices asking visitors not to touch the copper sinks. Even human hands can accelerate the 'corrosion' process, necessitating more frequent cleaning which scours away a bit more of the surface every time. This is because some people ooze chemicals that tarnish copper and brass surfaces. This is common in the engineering industry and anyone who had these trends is termed as having "Rusty Fingers" One of my past tasks was to silver solder and soft solder brass items together. The items that were etched could not be used. Mrs H is one such person, chemicals ooze from her like steam on a cold day and ... as our young family grew single beds were an emergency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Will86 - 2019-09-02 2:06 PM John52 - 2019-09-02 12:28 PM This can be accelerated in certain conditions. In the kitchens of historic houses the National Trust have notices asking visitors not to touch the copper sinks. Even human hands can accelerate the 'corrosion' process, necessitating more frequent cleaning which scours away a bit more of the surface every time. This is because some people ooze chemicals that tarnish copper and brass surfaces. This is common in the engineering industry and anyone who had these trends is termed as having "Rusty Fingers" One of my past tasks was to silver solder and soft solder brass items together. The items that were etched could not be used. Mrs H is one such person, chemicals ooze from her like steam on a cold day and ... as our young family grew single beds were an emergency. As I recall the bad earth straps didn't cut the supply altogether as the engine would still start. The fault would have been easier to trace if they had. They just created a resistance that made the electronics do funny things. So I guess justs tarnishing the copper would be enough to create that resistance. Could be worse as some people (like me) ooze electricity when wearing or walking over certain fabrics, getting an electric shock when I touch something earthed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverback Posted September 3, 2019 Author Share Posted September 3, 2019 thanks chaps interesting reading, does anyone know where to put it? there is something in my head that euroserve had said there was a better place, but i might be thinking of the x250 Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Depends on your engine. On mine it runs from the side of the gearbox to the nearside box section. Safest advice would be to replace it with a tinned copper strap if it hasn't got one already. The gearbox has a chunk of metal cast into it to fasten the earth strap to - so if it corrodes or comes loose and melts a bit of metal off there it won't matter.. If it corroded or melted a bit of metal off somewhere else it might matter - plus you are loosening a bolt off which might not be long enough to cope with the extra thickness of the terminal under it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 These are what I use: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Engine-Gearbox-Battery-Earth-Lead-Strap-9-to-24-Inch-Choose-Terminal-sizes/322794821937?hash=item4b28121931:m:mxeX3kZ04RCh9mFozvU9dFA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 John52 - 2019-09-03 7:29 PM - so if it corrodes or comes loose and melts a bit of metal off there it won't matter.. If it corroded or melted a bit of metal off somewhere else it might matter John I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that 'a bit of metal' as you put it can be lost by melting off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 Will86 - 2019-09-04 10:28 AM John52 - 2019-09-03 7:29 PM - so if it corrodes or comes loose and melts a bit of metal off there it won't matter.. If it corroded or melted a bit of metal off somewhere else it might matter John I'm curious how you come to the conclusion that 'a bit of metal' as you put it can be lost by melting off. A loose connection could produce sparks that would melt metal - like an electric welder. Like when you connect or disconnect jump leads. So they cast a bit of extra metal into the designated attachment point, instead of just sticking it under a bolt somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47643 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 hi , on another thread. if you search for x250 air filter box removal. i have attached a couple of pics of an additional earth strap.i cant get a hyperlink to other thread. maybe someone here could do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 47643 - 2019-09-04 6:21 PM hi , on another thread. if you search for x250 air filter box removal. i have attached a couple of pics of an additional earth strap.i cant get a hyperlink to other thread. maybe someone here could do it The last post in this thread... https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/Fiat-Ducato-X250-2-3L-removing-air-filter-box-/52957/ Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
47643 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted September 4, 2019 Share Posted September 4, 2019 John52 - 2019-09-03 7:29 A loose connection could produce sparks that would melt metal - like an electric welder. Like when you connect or disconnect jump leads. So they cast a bit of extra metal into the designated attachment point, instead of just sticking it under a bolt somewhere else. Wise words indeed. A spark every day keeps the repair man away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John52 Posted September 5, 2019 Share Posted September 5, 2019 One tinned copper strap is enough. But if you do fit a second for any reason, take care it doesn't chafe on something else. There is probably more room underneath. This photo shows a second earth strap running from the n/s box section to the steel cover plate on the gearbox housing. If it does melt a bit of metal off the cover plate it will be easier to replace than the gearbox casing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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