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Yet another battery question
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userOcsid
Posted: 2 September 2018 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Now should that inverter be PSW or can you get away with a MSW, just a bit concerned about my rather delicate Schaudt Elektroblock?
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Good point.
Never anything other than Pure Sine Wave in a modern Motorhome where sensitive electronics might be installed, and suggest you go for medium pricing not cheapest.

Generally, PSW Inverters are much better made, even the better ones are not expensive in 650watt sizes and a typical charger takes 300w and a Fridge up to 180w'ish so it shouldn't get overloaded.


No recommendations but something like this 600w (continuous not just peak) 12v :
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Transformer_Index/Inverters/index.html#Inverters_Pure_SineA

It has 1amp USB charging as well.


Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 6:18 PM
useraandy
Posted: 2 September 2018 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Those tests certainly put my "switch things on for a few hours every day for a week and see what's left at the end" approach to shame.

I survived six days off grid, with the batteries down to 12v at the end. The lowest I have previously seen is 12.2v. After a four hour drive home I left the van on hook-up until the readout on the ECU was showing 13.6v and 0amps, at which point I switched off at the socket in the garage and on the ECU. That is my usual routine and, without fail, the reading after 24 hours is always 12.6v. On this occasion the reading was 12.8v and it remains so after a further 24 hours. Is it possible that a slightly deeper than usual discharge has somehow had a beneficial effect, or is it more likely to be a brief rally before they finally give up?

Apologies in advance for what is probably a stupid question, but all I know about batteries is what I've picked up on here (thanks again Allan) and I only understood about half of that.

Andy
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Aandy, that is good going, 6 days shows what can be done if you need to.
.
12v is quite deep for most batteries but you probably have not stressed that particularly battery that much.

While it needs really careful TLC, if it does get the ideal care, they are capable of deeper discharging than many.

In most cases a lead battery will not benefit from being discharged and recharged, it will always lose a little bit of capacity.
Ni-cad batteries can have a memory effect, but Lead batteries always benefit from shallow discharging, unless they have been standing a long time and suffered acid stratification.

However, your 'charging regime' may be relevant? You might not be leaving it on charge long enough. See our web page on how chargers work, http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/how-does-a-charger-work.php because most won't have got 2 big batteries fully charged by the time they drop to 13.8v.
That is how car chargers work.

Motorhome chargers 'boost' for x hours, typically 4, before dropping to 13.8v float, regardless of how 'full' the battery is. It's a safety thing.

Leave it on mains charge at least 4 days after use like you have given it.






Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 6:22 PM
userplwsm2000
Posted: 2 September 2018 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Sorry to put a spanner in the works to an otherwise good idea, but the thought of running an inverter and EBL charger while the vehicle is in motion is quite scary. It invalidates the EMC testing and certification that would have been considered when the vehicle CofC was produced.

Obviously EBL chargers would have been designed to operate on EHU and not when the vehicle is in motion. These chargers and inverters contain high power and high frequency switching electronics that can generate quite a lot of electrical noise if not designed and connected up properly. There is a small chance these could interfere with ABS, Airbags or other safety critical electronics on the vehicle.

I believe many British vans have an "EMC relay" to disable the habitation electrics when the engine is running for this very reason. Using an inverter to the EBL while traveling will bypass these safety measures.
IMO, the chance of anything going wrong maybe quite small, but the repercussions could be catastrophic.

useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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plwsm2000 - 2018-09-02 6:36 PM

Sorry to put a spanner in the works to an otherwise good idea, but the thought of running an inverter and EBL charger while the vehicle is in motion is quite scary. It invalidates the EMC testing and certification that would have been considered when the vehicle CofC was produced.

Obviously EBL chargers would have been designed to operate on EHU and not when the vehicle is in motion. These chargers and inverters contain high power and high frequency switching electronics that can generate quite a lot of electrical noise if not designed and connected up properly. There is a small chance these could interfere with ABS, Airbags or other safety critical electronics on the vehicle.

I believe many British vans have an "EMC relay" to disable the habitation electrics when the engine is running for this very reason. Using an inverter to the EBL while traveling will bypass these safety measures.
IMO, the chance of anything going wrong maybe quite small, but the repercussions could be catastrophic.




Sorry to disagree, but this whole area is just full of so much inaccurate garbage.
The UK do not do ANY EMC testing AT ALL, they rely on installing kit that has approval before it is fitted.
Ask to see the EMC certificates!!!
It was based on 'legislation' that was out of date before it was even written.

German, Italian, French, Dutch, U.S, etc. built vans do not disable ANY 12v electrical items, it is purely a British thing that is a pain in the neck for everyone, particularly those who WANT/NEED to see how rubbish their Alternator charging is!!!

It is this same terrible adoption by the UK of this phoney EMC 'needing' to disable 12v that has hidden poor alternator charging so long. My pet hate,



12v vehicle electrics on cars and motorhomes have to be SO RESILIENT to all manner of electrical disturbance in the air waves ( like driving past Police radio masts with ultra high power 60 mile power operation, Cell masts, etc) that they have been designed to be bullet proof.

Sorry but that is just scare mongering and it is about time the UK moved with the rest of the World.


Now, being concerned about the Electrical energy from a Nuclear Blast disturbing my ABS is something we should all worry about.....................



Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 6:59 PM
useraandy
Posted: 2 September 2018 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Thanks Allan. It was at 14v+ and around 4 amps for several hours so when it dropped to 13.6 and 0 I assumed it had finished. I had been wary of leaving it on float after reading (and no doubt misunderstanding) one of your earlier posts. I'll put the charger back on now.

We were not in the van very much while away so did not use a lot of power, and with a low consumption Avtex TV (no more than one or two hours a night) and all LED lights I had expected 2x100ah batteries to do rather better. Evidently I was expecting too much of them, so perhaps replacement is not as imminent as I had thought. While I can guestimate the usage on things like TV and lights, high consumption in short bursts items such as water pump and cooker and boiler fans are probably where my calculations fall down.

Andy
userarthur49
Posted: 2 September 2018 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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aandncaravan - 2018-09-02 4:21 PM

In many vans, just as Welted did, you will need to augment the mains charge for optimum performance, I think he bought a Victron, which also had 13.2v long term float charging to further preserve battery life again.



I wondered about this Allan. My van has the basic EC155. I implemented your 'beefed' up wiring and split charge relay recommendation months ago, and now get 14.34v at habitation batteries with engine running, fridge off or on gas.

Now how to beef up charging on EHU? Is the Victron charger above in addition to standard van charger or instead of?

Edited by arthur49 2018-09-02 7:11 PM
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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aandy - 2018-09-02 6:51 PM

Thanks Allan. Evidently I was expecting too much of them, so perhaps replacement is not as imminent as I had thought. While I can guestimate the usage on things like TV and lights, high consumption in short bursts items such as water pump and cooker and boiler fans are probably where my calculations fall down.

Andy


Andy, Only reliable way we have found to test a Motorhome battery, is listed at the bottom of this web page :
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

If a battery has been 'exhausted' yet has no faults in the plates, i.e no shorts, no sulphation, etc. it can hold a steady voltage for weeks, yet not have any real capacity.



useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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arthur49 - 2018-09-02 7:10 PM

aandncaravan - 2018-09-02 4:21 PM

In many vans, just as Welted did, you will need to augment the mains charge for optimum performance, I think he bought a Victron, which also had 13.2v long term float charging to further preserve battery life again.



I wondered about this Allan. My van has the basic EC155. I implemented your 'beefed' up wiring and split charge relay recommendation months ago, and now get 14.34v at habitation batteries with engine running, fridge off or on gas.

Now how to beef up charging on EHU? Is the Victron charger above in addition to standard van charger or instead of?



Arthur, perfect timing because it shows how few wiring changes you actually need to make to make a big difference,

As you know your EC155 normally has a fixed 13.8v (no variable voltage rate at all) but does vary the current from it's peak 10 or 20 amps downwards depending on spec.


The EC155/160 usually has a charger inside the big metal case, but a standalone Victron mains charger can be wired directly into the EC155 housing so that all functionality remains exactly as before, including switching between the two chargers.
The new Victron charger can be wired so BOTH the existing charger (but mains 230v plug pulled if required so it is temporary non operational) or the Victron can be used.

If a 12v, 2 pin plug is used to wire in the Victron, it can be just pulled from the installation to return it to standard when you sell up.

It is not hard to do, just open the case (watch for ridiculously short cables) and trace the charger 12v output. Splice the Victron output into this.

Take the 230v plug from the 'old' charger and make up something like the photo, with a Surge/Spike 13a Adapter to create a 'Double' 230v socket. See photo.


Control of which charger is operational at a time, is done by juggling the 230v mains inputs. We have seen a Spike/Surge 13a adapter with switches which makes this easier.


That advice also applies to most of the Sargent ECxxx range with a separate/standalone charger.


Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 7:54 PM




(13a adapter small.jpg)



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userarthur49
Posted: 2 September 2018 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Thank you Allan. Thats my next 'project' sorted then

Edited by arthur49 2018-09-02 7:50 PM
userplwsm2000
Posted: 2 September 2018 7:57 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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aandncaravan - 2018-09-02 6:46 PM


Sorry to disagree, but this whole area is just full of so much inaccurate garbage.
The UK do not do ANY EMC testing AT ALL, they rely on installing kit that has approval before it is fitted.
Ask to see the EMC certificates!!!
It was based on 'legislation' that was out of date before it was even written.

German, Italian, French, Dutch, U.S, etc. built vans do not disable ANY 12v electrical items, it is purely a British thing that is a pain in the neck for everyone, particularly those who WANT/NEED to see how rubbish their Alternator charging is!!!


12v vehicle electrics on cars and motorhomes have to be SO RESILIENT to all manner of electrical disturbance in the air waves ( like driving past Police radio masts with ultra high power 60 mile power operation, Cell masts, etc) that they have been designed to be bullet proof.

Sorry but that is just scare mongering and it is about time the UK moved with the rest of the World.


Now, being concerned about the Electrical energy from a Nuclear Blast disturbing my ABS is something we should all worry about.....................




Unfortunately it is not complete garbage but I do think there is a lot of scare stories about and that that British manufacturers are being over cautious.

The reason why UK manufacturers do not do any extra EMC testing is because they don't need to if the habitation electronics is off when the engine is running. As I say, I think they are being over cautious and I would be surprised if German/French manufacturers do any EMC testing either but they probably do a better assessment of the risks (it is not always compulsory to do the testing as a detailed technical assessment can sometimes be done instead)

There are fundamentally two types of interference - radiated and conducted. The police radios, Radar, mobile phone masts etc all radiate RF at high levels and are above 30MHz and are external to the vehicle. Conducted interference is more to do with noise propagated on internal wires and cables and as they are at lower frequencies, they behave quite differently. The noise is generated by electrical devices connected to the internal wiring. When Fiat/Ford etc. ran EMC tests on their base vehicle, they would have used a typical or worse case equipment level, and I am fairly sure they would not have included an inverter, charger, fridge etc. in the test vehicle.
The way that electronics are protected from these two sources use different principles and it is quite possible (and very common in my experience with EMC work) for electronics to be immune to radiated interference and be very poor at conducted interference (and vice versa).

Maybe British motorhome manufacturers should take advise from some EMC specialists and hopefully do away with these "EMC relays". I also think there is no need for them but I am not the one going to jail if they don't do it properly.

https://interferencetechnology.com/toyota-issues-vehicle-recall-due-to-electrical-interference/#
http://www.autoemc.net/Papers/Other/EMC&CJ50_PP_AM.pdf

Edited by plwsm2000 2018-09-02 8:06 PM
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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I think the number of people who start their motorhome engine while plugged in to EHU and the ECU lets the engine run ok is pretty much proof just how how robust motorhome 'chassis' 12v are. No CANBUS errors yet, about as sensitive as you can get.


I also think the number of people running a myriad of different TV's, ultra sensitive Sat systems, laptops, WiFi's, microwaves, etc in motorhomes while on EHU or Inverter, etc. are also testament to the lack of interference from standard devices shows it isn't a risk.


Sorry, but the 'Going to jail' just reinforces the scare mongering approach taken.




Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 8:44 PM
userspirou
Posted: 2 September 2018 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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I probably won't be doing this dual charger modification but I'm just trying to figure this out. If I understand correctly you just wire them in parallel on the output and input side but how do you switch the inputs other than manually unplugging one, hoping you took out the one not supplying the sockets with 230V but the one wired only to battery? Also, won't they be interfering with each other?

Lets say one has a 2h timer, the other 8. One a 13.8V float, the other 13.2V. It seems a bit convoluted. I know Schaudt makes extra chargers for larger battery banks so those are trully plug&play if your base EBL is already a Schaudt but I'd be a bit hesitant to mix them up across brands. Just a feeling, nothing else.

I've noticed that thread with starter battery inverter as pseudo EHU before but haven't really looked into it. At first look seems quite an undertaking to make that conversion if you don't plan for it in the first place. While doing the test today I tried, but couldn't figure out an easy way to upgrade to heavier wiring and that's not even my first priority on the list of things to fix. Batteries at opposing ends of the van pretty much include ripping out some furniture and trim, or wires stuck somewhere midway as you try to pull them through.
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 8:37 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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spirou - 2018-09-02 8:25 PM

I probably won't be doing this dual charger modification but I'm just trying to figure this out. If I understand correctly you just wire them in parallel on the output and input side but how do you switch the inputs other than manually unplugging one, hoping you took out the one not supplying the sockets with 230V but the one wired only to battery? Also, won't they be interfering with each other?



I don't think anyone in the world would run a 1980's design charger alongside one designed last year, but keeping them both in place keeps everything original which is important to some, and easy return to a single charger.

It allows them to be tested in isolation once in a while and gives future flexibility should one fail.

You don't need to switch inputs/outputs, if it has no 230v going in, it's just dead.

It also means that Sargent won't kick off if you have to send them the ECxxx housing for repair and there is a Cuckoo in there.

You are fortunate to have a 'real' charger, one of the best, not everyone in the UK is.

So if it easier to leave both 'operational but controllable, it's silly not to.


Sorry if I sound grumpy, I am.
In a lot of discomfort tonight,


Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-02 8:52 PM
useraandy
Posted: 2 September 2018 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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aandncaravan - 2018-09-02 7:16 PM

aandy - 2018-09-02 6:51 PM

Thanks Allan. Evidently I was expecting too much of them, so perhaps replacement is not as imminent as I had thought. While I can guestimate the usage on things like TV and lights, high consumption in short bursts items such as water pump and cooker and boiler fans are probably where my calculations fall down.

Andy


Andy, Only reliable way we have found to test a Motorhome battery, is listed at the bottom of this web page :
http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/battery-technology.php

If a battery has been 'exhausted' yet has no faults in the plates, i.e no shorts, no sulphation, etc. it can hold a steady voltage for weeks, yet not have any real capacity.





That's pretty much what I did a couple of weeks back. Resting voltage dropped by 0.4 after taking around 60 amps so, with 60-70% of their nominal capacity remaining, the batteries would appear to be knackered. From what you've said about my charging regime it may be that they were not fully charged at the start of the test, but as I've been doing it that way for some time that in itself has probably damaged them.

I have no problem replacing anything that needs replacing, but really hate waste and was reluctant to dump them until I was sure they were past it. I'll be replacing them with EFBs, so as I invariably use EHU in winter I can hang on to them until the spring, by which time, hopefully, EFBs will be more readily available.

Andy
userspirou
Posted: 2 September 2018 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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Everyone gets grumpy, most others without a proper excuse so don't appologize.

Lets for example say I'd want to add a victron bluesmart charger on top of the schaudt EBL and I want to keep all the existing functionality of the EBL, except ability to charge the battery on EHU. I just don't see if that would work, at least not without manual switching between units? Which wouldn't work for other family members, it would need to be failsafe. Or would it be as easy as just unplugging the 230V input to schaudt and hooking it up to victron? I suspect the 230V sockets around the van don't go through the EBL?

All just academic thought experiment, not considering it in reality.
useraandncaravan
Posted: 2 September 2018 11:45 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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spirou - 2018-09-02 9:29 PM

Lets for example say I'd want to add a victron bluesmart charger on top of the schaudt EBL and I want to keep all the existing functionality of the EBL, except ability to charge the battery on EHU. I just don't see if that would work, at least not without manual switching between units? Which wouldn't work for other family members, it would need to be failsafe. Or would it be as easy as just unplugging the 230V input to schaudt and hooking it up to victron?

All just academic thought experiment, not considering it in reality.



Spirou, Yes that is exactly what happens and Schaudt provide the kit for it.

The Schaudt LAS1218 auxillary charger below is designed as an 'Add on' to the Schaudt Elektroblock range and is designed to be utilised if the battery bank is raised above a single 90Ah battery.
It is this unit that is the bulk of the cost for the 380€ cost of a second battery that Hymer charge if you specify that option.
But because the Dealers fit the second battery they rarely fit the second charger.

It comes with a full cable set to plug into an EBL 208 like your or any EBL 99, etc. but if you don't have a cable set, then make one up, which is what I suggested to Arthur, that allows you to switch manually by controlling the 230v into the chargers.

If you look closely at the UK spec 13a/230v adapter in the second photo (it may not a be familiar in Solvenia so might seem a bit 'odd') that I suggested Arthur make up, you will see it has multiple 230v outlets, but it turns the usual 230v feed into the front of an EBL 208/EBL99 into a multiple feed for 2 chargers.

The second photo below shows one of these 230v Spike/Surge adapters (a sort of OVP01 equivalent) with multiple switches so you can power all or none, etc.

In the case of the standard EBL 208 and LAS128 working together, they do it just perfectly and continuously reducing charge times and loadings.

Using two very different technology chargers can be an issue, but just think about your vehicle. It has Alternator and Solar at the same time, Mains and Solar at the same time, etc


A Schaudt EBL 208 and a Victron coupled into the EBL 208 front 2 pin charger port, just for this purpose, would work really well. When you want to de-activate the EBL 208 inbuilt charger, so the Victron can control 13.2v float, just turn off its 230v at the Spike/Adapter.

The EBL doesn't control 230v power, that is done via a separate RCD, keeping them separate is safer.
One thing I don't understand In the UK we get paranoid about reverse polarity but then put 12v AND 230v distribution wiring all in the same metal Power controller/charger cabinet.




Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-03 12:14 AM




(Schaudt LAS1218 small.jpg)



(13a Plug Surge.png)



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Attachments Schaudt LAS1218 small.jpg (27KB - 74 downloads)
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userarthur49
Posted: 2 September 2018 11:47 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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spirou - 2018-09-02 8:25 PM
While doing the test today I tried, but couldn't figure out an easy way to upgrade to heavier wiring and that's not even my first priority on the list of things to fix. Batteries at opposing ends of the van pretty much include ripping out some furniture and trim, or wires stuck somewhere midway as you try to pull them through.


I'm no expert but to beef up wiring in accordance with Allan's recommendation I found to be a piece of cake. The worst bit was lying flat under the van getting the 25sqmm wiring from front to back (starter to hab battery), because my blood pressure meds make me light headed when I try to get up . No need to rip out furniture etc. Just out through the floor - I used a pre-existing large vent - then in through the plastic box in which the starter battery sits (and convoluted conduit for external wiring)
I did have to figure out a way to disable EC155 split charge relay but that wasn't too difficult

Edited by arthur49 2018-09-02 11:57 PM
useraandncaravan
Posted: 3 September 2018 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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spirou - 2018-09-02 8:25 PM


I've noticed that thread with starter battery inverter as pseudo EHU before but haven't really looked into it. At first look seems quite an undertaking to make that conversion if you don't plan for it in the first place.



People add Inverters to the habitation area battery all the time to power a hair dryer, etc. easy to do.
Bad idea to use the habitation area battery, in my view, but easy.

In it's basic form, Weldteds idea is just a small Inverter connected to the STARTER battery driving the Fridge and mains charger, that is it.

Imagine fitting an Inverter to the Starter battery then run the Inverter 230v output cable to a new 'Inverter only' powered 13a socket (or maybe Schuko socket in your case?) next to the Fridge which you use for the Fridge when driving.
Just pull the Fridge mains plug from the 'EHU' socket and plug into the 'Inverter socket' before you start your journey.

What could be simpler?

Same for the mains charger 230v input.


My 'better way' of running the 'Starter Inverter' 230v output direct to the RCD using 16amp EHU style male female connectors allows all 230v circuits in the vehicle to run from the small Inverter and powered by the engine as an efficient emergency 'generator', that will actually get some decent charge into the battery.

That is all it is. It doesn't alter any 12v control charging, introduce maintenance issues, battery overcharging, or any of the usual problems caused by a B2B installation that can affect long term reliability.


It is an especially brilliant, cheap mod for those with a Camper van using those Amp Hour guzzling 12v Compressor Fridge's.
With a good charger and battery set-up, just 25 mins engine run time can not only get a Waeco Coolmatic 65 down to 'Cold' but put in decent emergency charge into the battery, even in mid winter when Solar doesn't provide any usable power.

For more on this specific problem with 12v compressor Fridges, and how to improve their usability, see the new web page (still under construction) : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/compressor-fridge-12v.php



Spirou and Arthur, there is so much good stuff in this thread, please can I use it on the web site?

You can dictate content, full control.



Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-03 7:46 AM
userspirou
Posted: 3 September 2018 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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Use whatever you wish. I can also supply the raw data logs (CSV) if you want to work on them yourself. My quick annotations could definitely use some work to clarify a few things. Not sure how people understood the different logging intervals, probably better to word it as duration of that particular segment.

So... if you'd like to use the charts, I really want to fix a few things
userarthur49
Posted: 3 September 2018 9:18 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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aandncaravan - 2018-09-03 7:40 AM

Spirou and Arthur, there is so much good stuff in this thread, please can I use it on the web site?

You can dictate content, full control.



Use anything you want Allan. All the best ....
userspirou
Posted: 3 September 2018 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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One comment regarding the compressor fridge page... the thing people seem to forget is that you have to park in the sun to get the most out of a solar panel. But parking in the sun, in temperatures above ~25°C will be a nightmare to anyone inside the MH. Not to mention it will increase the load on the fridge as you increase the ambient temperature even further inside that mobile greenhouse.

Granted, it's not a situation most brits will be familiar with even in mid summer

Essentially, a solar panel has a very similar average yield winter or summer precisely because of the shade seeking nature of summer trips in warmer temperatures. Attached is our solar panel yield chart for the past almost 3 years. The absolute numbers are irelevant so I removed them from the chart, the shape says it all.

In our case with the 120W panel we have an average yield of 64Wh per day. This obviously includes days parked at home, on EHU, driving etc. when solar doesn't need to work and you can see it on the chart how the numbers jump up when the van is in use vs. at home. I'm not feeling up to calculating exactly how the average changes if I include only days on off grid trips but typically it's 10-40Wh when parked and the battery is just being maintained and 100-300Wh when out in winter or summer.

The maximum power chart does show more seasonal variation but also not as much as one might think. Again, I prefer having a cool van rather than maximum power so look for the shade.



(SolarYield.png)



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userweldted
Posted: 3 September 2018 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Seeing my system has come up in these posts, a couple of points to note.

The inverter is a 1000 watt cont 2000 peak pure sine wave. The only circuits on when driving are the inverter to power the charger and 240 volt to the fridge. The habitation electrics are disabled whilst driving same as they have always been from new by the factory fitted relay working on the D+ signal from the alternator. On my Elddis the mains ehu socket is recessed in a locker next to no1 battery. There is room for the fly lead from the inverter to be kept in this locker even when site electrics ehu is being used. When not on hook up the fly lead is plugged into the ehu socket. This system means the two mains power sources cannot be connected at the same time. This inverter easily powers the 800 watt microwave for around ten mins without bringing the starter battery to below 40% DOD if needed for longer just run the engine. I have fitted a latching relay to disable the battery charger when parked up so the engine battery through the inverter is not trying to charge the leisure battery with the engine off when the engine is running there is a signal from the d+ terminal that cancels the latching relay to allow the leisure batteries to be charged.
I would note that I am a qualified electrician and have extensive knowledge of both ac and dc systems.
All circuits a fuse protected if in doubt please consult one before altering any wiring.
userweldted
Posted: 4 September 2018 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Photos of ehu locker with mains supply connected, inverter supply lead disconnected
Sorry had to send two posts.




Edited by weldted 2018-09-04 8:33 AM




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userweldted
Posted: 4 September 2018 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Ehu locker with inverter fly lead connected. With the ehu socket in this recessed locker it enables me to travel with no external leads or additional switch gear required. Also fitted /VICTRON-Blue-Smart-BlueTooth-12V-IP22-BATTERY-CHARGER-15-30A-1 this is fitted with a separate mains socket so either charger can be used in practice the original is off and new one on. But as away for long periods and as not much weight involved original left in place as a back up. By connecting the inverter this way it allows all the 240 volt sockets to be available not forgetting the limitations of the inverter power and battery capacity.
Having had my securimotion regulator fail high up on the way to Andorra we were able to run the Alde heating on 1kw whilst travelling to get a new regulator to protect the boiler -12 c and make a hot drink from the cookers hotplate (not both at the same time) in the several trips away no noticable effect has been noted re fuel consumption.

Edited by weldted 2018-09-04 8:49 AM




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userspirou
Posted: 10 September 2018 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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I took a quick look at our wiring between starter and leisure battery yesterday evening and it might be possible to rip things apart and rewire through existing conduit (hoping wires don't get stuck midway).

The two most problematic wires are already 6mm2 as per Schaudt EBL installation diagram yet there's still a ~0.3V drop in those 5-6m of wire. Interestingly however, the WA121525 booster (B2B) manual has those same connections at 10-16mm2. As it's not an expensive device I might choose to go that route to keep things simple. It would also solve my battery combiner issue as it connects on D+ signal, rather than battery voltage since my leisure battery resting voltage is above the disconnect setting thus keeping them connected until I do it manually with a switch.

There's a caravan show happening this week and I'm tempted to go there armed with a voltmeter and measure a few things
useraandncaravan
Posted: 10 September 2018 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Location: Conwy, North Wales


spirou - 2018-09-10 9:29 AM

I took a quick look at our wiring between starter and leisure battery yesterday evening and it might be possible to rip things apart and rewire through existing conduit (hoping wires don't get stuck midway).

The two most problematic wires are already 6mm2 as per Schaudt EBL installation diagram yet there's still a ~0.3V drop in those 5-6m of wire. Interestingly however, the WA121525 booster (B2B) manual has those same connections at 10-16mm2. As it's not an expensive device I might choose to go that route to keep things simple. It would also solve my battery combiner issue as it connects on D+ signal, rather than battery voltage since my leisure battery resting voltage is above the disconnect setting thus keeping them connected until I do it manually with a switch.

There's a caravan show happening this week and I'm tempted to go there armed with a voltmeter and measure a few things




Spirou, A lot of the batteries taken to the shows are older stock which they sell cheaper to offload them. Get your voltmeter on some of those, you might be surprised how low the volts are on some.






Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-10 11:19 AM
useraandncaravan
Posted: 10 September 2018 11:38 AM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 
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Location: Conwy, North Wales


I should have attached a State Of Charge chart to the above so you can see what the batteries actually are versus what they should be, but only just thought about it, sorry.

So below is a chart from Yuasa showing how different technology have different SOC's, Powerframe, AGM and Gel are generally up near 13v but conventional batteries are about 12.6v.

The second chart is from AtlasBx/Hankook for their more conventional construction batteries, but the figures pretty much match that of Yuasa Yu.

Most of the SOC charts you find are way out of date for modern batteries, and used by Dealers to their advantage!!




Edited by aandncaravan 2018-09-10 11:42 AM




(Battery Yuasa state of Charge Chart.jpg)



(Atlasbx battery SOC small.jpg)



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Attachments Battery Yuasa state of Charge Chart.jpg (13KB - 71 downloads)
Attachments Atlasbx battery SOC small.jpg (79KB - 77 downloads)
userBillggski
Posted: 10 September 2018 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Yet another battery question
 


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MMM magazine today looks like it's going to open up another can of worms, with four examples of lithium ferrous installations!
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