tonyg3nwl Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 A friend of òurs was telling us yesterday about their recent breakdown, in france . It seems that they had injector problems, and eventually had to replace all 4. it sounds like an expensive problem what is rhe cost of replacing them in uk at a bank holiday weekend, and how long could it take.. they were stuck for 5 days, being French bank holiday may weekend, and another french holiday the following weekend. is it a service requirement at regular intervals, and if so , at what interval.. tonyg3nwl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Tony, What make, model and year is the chassis/engine? This will make a large difference to the cost. Keith. PS And they should not be a regular service item. Some USA Sprinter owners report over 200,000 miles on original injectors! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 Hehas a ford engine 2.2 litre and van is autocruise having covered about 40k miles dating from 2008. tonyg3nwl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Fiat and Merc injectors should cover big mileages, although there are known issues with the Injector wiring/plug where it connects to the Injector. The Ford injector problem is a known issue, even on 2018 vehicles. They have also been blamed for holing pistons on the Ford Puma engines. The Merc injectors are particularly known for being hard to change due to corrosion, and sometimes the Head needs to be removed to drill them out, Fiat less so but can still be a pain to remove.. I think Nick of Euroserv recommended removal of fiat Injectors at low mileages, before corrosion sets in, then greasing with a special,paste to make removal an easier option in the future? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 tonyg3nwl - 2018-10-25 12:33 PM Hehas a ford engine 2.2 litre and van is autocruise having covered about 40k miles dating from 2008. tonyg3nwl. The 2.2litre Ford-built “Puma” diesel motor was fitted to a wide variety of vehicle makes, including (where motorhomes are concerned) models based on Ford Transit, Fiat Ducato, Peugeot Boxer and Citroen Relay chassis. There is a lot of on-line discussion about ‘injector-related’ problems with this motor, though the suggestion here https://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053 is that the true culprit is the ECU rather than the injectors themselves. Either way, the result can be catastrophic. As far as I’m aware injector replacement will not be part of scheduled servicing whatever the make of vehicle and - wherever and whenever it would be done (France or the UK) - it won’t be a cheap procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 aandncaravan - 2018-10-25 4:06 PM ...I think Nick of Euroserv recommended removal of fiat Injectors at low mileages, before corrosion sets in, then greasing with a special,paste to make removal an easier option in the future? What Nick Fisher (euroserv) said was "To answer the question about preventative maintenance; When we fit new injectors we smear ceramic grease over the bodies before inserting them and we use the same grease on the new securing screws. It helps a lot. In addition, if your vehicle did not have a plastic cover from new; you should get one and the two or three items needed to secure it. I can't stress this enough; it's not so much the removal of the injectors on Fiat engines that is the problem. It is the likelihood of the screws that retain them breaking while being removed even if every possible precaution has been taken.” Nick’s advice was in this forum thread https://forums.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/Motorhomes/Motorhome-Matters/rusted-injectors-ducato/48451/ It needs to be highlighted that removal/greasing/replacement of the bolts that secure in place the injectors of a Fiat Ducato 2.3litre motor is not a ‘preventive maintenance’ task to be taken lightly. The bolts are long, with a short threaded section at their lower end that connects deep down inside the cylinder head. As Deneb mentions in his posting of 30 January 2018 4:34 PM in the above link, it’s likely that removing/greasing/replacing the securing bolts on a newish motor should be straightforward (as long as you have suitable tools!) However, if a bolt snaps (which Nick warns about) it will almost certainly snap at its threaded end where reaching the broken-off part will be impracticable without major disassembly of the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsbc Posted October 26, 2018 Share Posted October 26, 2018 Re injector bolts if they seem tight,before you break one find a drift and a large hanmmer give the bolts a good wack on the heads this usually loosens the bolt (shocks the thread to alloy head interface) should help removal.I once watched a fitter? destroying a very expensive alloy blow moulding die breaking off high tensile cap screws showed him how to do it never broke another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 The attached photo shows a current-model Ducato’s injector securing bolts and clamps. They are said to have been removed from a brand-new Ducato and (as will be apparent) already show signs of corrosion. More nightmare pictures here: http://www.injectorsremovals.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Ahhh, Injectors. Let's talk about that..... We had to replace a couple of injectors one winter. We had two vans with similar problems where an injector appeared to be leaking when the engine was switched off and this was causing the oil level to rise. On one it got so bad as to stop the engine and on the other the pressure was so great under the pistons that oil was leaking from every engine seal. The end result was the same and the offending injectors had to come out. These were 120,000 mile plus '07 2.3's at about 3 years old. In both cases the securing bolt snapped and in both cases the bolt snapped outside the cam cover, not deep inside the head where the threads are. They had to be drilled out and helicoiled which requires all of the injectors to be removed and the cam cover too; and that means that more screws will break! The injectors themselves had to be dismantled and specialist pullers attached to get them free. The reasons for these problems are quite obvious. 1. Steel screws into aluminium is always a stupid idea. The fact that they are not greased during assembly is even more stupid. 2. There is a void between the injector and the cylinder head. The only point at which there is a air tight fit is near the tip and there is a copper washer that makes the seal. The clamp above is secured with a screw and this creates the seal below. When a cold engine is started, the initial differences in heat causes condensation to form on the injector. This moisture has nowhere to go because there is a dust seal above it which also prevents water and debris from above getting into the injector hole. It is this moisture that will eventually lead to corrosion around the injector which will make it difficult to extract. In many cases hydraulic equipment is required to free the injectors and this is both expensive and time consuming. This problem is not unique to Fiat engines although the design of the cam carrier does allow (more than some engines) water to pool around the injectors and their securing screws. While there is a drain hole at the right hand end of the engine it does not prevent the pooling of moisture in critical areas. You would think that any water would evaporate as the engine gets hot but if the vehicle is left standing for long periods; so too is the moisture. The frequency of injector issues has been quite alarming over the last few years. We have only had a couple of issues with vehicles under warranty and this has been rectified for free, and the rest of the problems that we have had came after 100,000 miles but when they do, they have to be addressed. With a Euro4 engine, the vehicle is quite tolerant of a little smoke caused by excessive leak back or over fuelling because there is no DPF and therefore a little smoke can be seen but not enough to cause concern or fail an MOT but on Euro5 engines the smoke is caught by the DPF and causes clogging which the ECU will notice and this will cause a fuss that cannot be ignored. The symptoms that will be present even before the ECU throws a fit will be: Poor idling or lack of throttle response after starting from cold. Warning lights concerning 'Hill Holder' or ABS not available. (Not going to explain that one at this point) When the ECU finally put's the EML on and makes a statement like 'Check Engine', fault codes and descriptions for '1st or 2nd level of clogging exceeded' point directly to a DPF pressure sensor fault or an injector problem. The vehicle is either getting pressure readings that are incorrect due to either moisture in the DPF sensor pipes or a faulty sensor (probably caused by moisture) and thinks that the DPF is clogged when it is not, or there is an actual clogging problem and that will be caused by any of the usual suspects that can cause excessive smoke (turbo pipes, blocked filters, intercooler holed, etc) or an injector that is over-fuelling or under-fuelling. Over-fuelling is normally caused by an injector that is not shutting off when it should or is delivering too much fuel at each actuation because of a nozzle problem. Under-fuelling is caused by a defective leak back seal that is allowing too much fuel to return to the fuel tank and is not allowing enough through to the nozzle. There are simple tests for excessive leak back that can be carried out without removing injectors but over-fuelling cannot be tested for in situ. Unfortunately you just have to check everything non injector that you can and then check for excessive back leak and if there is nothing there to see; you just have to start removing injectors and replacing them until things get better. It is not uncommon to replace a couple that are leaking back first and still have a problem so end up replacing the others. On 2014 (or newer) vehicles that had covered 120,000 or more (out of warranty) i have had to replace at least one full set of injectors on about 75% of the vehicles that we ran. I believe that the reason for the high failure rate is that the same injectors have been in use from Euro3 to Euro6 and during this time the fuel pressure has increased from 300bar to over 2400bar. This has put more and more pressure on seals that just were not designed for this. The Delphi injectors in use on the 2.2 engines (Fiat, PSA and Ford) are one generation later in design so were probably designed with 1000bar in mind and this is why they seem to last a little longer but there have been plenty of cases of over-fuelling causing piston damage; so they are certainly not immune. VW and Mercedes also have injector issues but not normally until over 150,000 miles. As an experiment, when out 2011 vans arrived, we had the injector screws replaced with greased ones and grease smeared over the injectors. When problems arose after the normal time/mileage, they were certainly easier to get out that if we had not done so. We have also experimented with releasing oils prior to removing the injectors which has been helpful but has not prevented some broken screws. If you have the time; blocking up the drain hole and soaking the area for a few days seems beneficial but is no guarantee of success. It also helps if the engine can be run to very hot before trying to remove the screws but if the engine will not run, of course this is not an option and the breakage rate will increase. I do not know when injectors will be a problem on low mileage motorhomes. It is possible that you might never have a problem at all if your total mileage over 10 years does not exceed 50,000 miles. Nobody knows. Injectors have been a nightmare for me though! N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsbc Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 A thought regarding injector bolts they coulght always be replaced with studs and nuts car manufacturers don't do this "extra components". Any leaks into the area around the injector turns into something like coal caused by boiling off the volatile elements (diesel leaks) also check for gassing around the injectors this means seal has failed if left for too long leads to erosionof between seal and sealing face this means a head off job and seat machining. P.S.There are many anti seize products that are far better than any grease, modern greases are a mixture of oil and other compounds and heat means they are not suited to this application "the oil boils off leaving the residue meaning stuck bolts". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 jjsbc - 2018-10-29 8:31 PM A thought regarding injector bolts they coulght always be replaced with studs and nuts car manufacturers don't do this "extra components". Sorry but manufacturers are not using bolts as a cost saving measure. Injector hold down bolts are usually 'Torque to Yield' bolts and are permanently 'stretched' when they are correctly installed and hence must be replaced every time they are removed. You cannot achieve 'Torque to Yield' with a nut and stud in the same manner. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque-to-yield_fastener Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Keith The Ducato 2.3litre motor’s injector securing bolts are as shown in the photo I provided above and their advised torque-setting is a relativel low 28Nm or 29Nm. As far as I’m aware, if the securing bolts are removed there is no requirement to replace them with brand-new bolts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 From a non-users view From Keith's comments any slightly over-torqued bolts may even fail on re-assembly ? Has anyone ever researched a high frequency application through the bolt head ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 jjsbc - 2018-10-29 8:31 PM A thought regarding injector bolts they coulght always be replaced with studs and nuts car manufacturers don't do this "extra components". Any leaks into the area around the injector turns into something like coal caused by boiling off the volatile elements (diesel leaks) also check for gassing around the injectors this means seal has failed if left for too long leads to erosionof between seal and sealing face this means a head off job and seat machining. P.S.There are many anti seize products that are far better than any grease, modern greases are a mixture of oil and other compounds and heat means they are not suited to this application "the oil boils off leaving the residue meaning stuck bolts". You are quite correct about 'grease' per se and that is why i use ceramic grease for this and any other high temperature applications. I first used it in high speed machine spindle assemblies in the 80's and it is far superior to oil based greases. Due to the high compression of diesel engines, you would hear a 'chuffing' noise long before any deposits could form around an injector and in my experience, unless an injector clamping screw is not tight enough, or debris is left in the injector hole before re-installation it does not happen. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 In addition, The injector securing bolts are described as 'stretch bolts' and must be replaced every time an injector is removed. Even if this were not the case, the tenuous relationship between steel screws and alloy threads would suggest that it would be quite foolish to use the same screw again. If they did not need to be stretch bolts i would not hesitate to use stainless steel bolts instead. It is possible to remove most of a broken screw and then helicoil the cam cover, insert a stud and clamp the injector with a nut, and have seen it done but this method means that the injector is clamped into the cam carrier and not the head and although the cover is about 12mm deep it is only bolted to the head itself and i am not completely satisfied that the pressure from the combustion process could not eventually get past the cam cover gasket. It is proper to remove all injectors, then the cam cover and repair the threads in the head before reassembly. The screw threads are very close to water jackets in the head and it is very easy to go of course while drilling out the broken screws and compromise the head. Drilling steel in alloy is only for those with nerves of steel and deep pockets. That is why this type of work can be very expensive and why once or twice i wish i had just bought a second hand engine! N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will86 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 From a web site called Honest John UK All bolts stretch when they are tightened, but usually they stay within their 'elastic limit'. So, when they are loosened, they return elastically to their original length. The normal tightening method is by torque wrench. The tightening torque is calculated to apply the correct stretch, and so put the correct load on the joint. It's not very accurate, and is affected particularly by thread condition, lubricant on the thread etc. Even using a bolt a second time when the thread is polished gives a different load on the bolt. Stretch bolts try to eliminate some of these problems. A steel bolt will extend steadily in proportion to load up to its elastic limit. At that point it yields, and takes on permanent deformation. For a short while the material continues to extend steadily for very small increases in load (the load/extension curve being virtually horizontal), and after that it takes only very small loads to keep stretching it to the point of failure. That is the load/extension curve drops rapidly. Stretch bolts are made of steel which has a relatively long horizontal section of the load/ extension curve past the yield point. In use they are tightened by stretching them a specific amount, by measuring the rotation after the joint is nipped. This is calculated to take them a short way past their yield point, to the point where the load extension curve is horizontal. The load in the bolt and hence the load on the joint is accurately known, as opposed to being at some ill-defined point on the elastic part of the load extension curve. Because the deformation is permanent, and further extension would actually reduce the load applied, it is not possible to check the tightness of such bolts after a period of service. It is also unwise to reuse them, as they would not apply the correct load to the joint. PS a U/tube test procedure site says they never return to their original length. PPS A steel bolt in an alloy setting would also be under additional stress due to the greater expansion of the alloy over steel. Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 On the point about how long the injectors will last the previous owner of our Hobby had a failed injector so, perhaps wisely, had all of them replaced. He didn't say if there were problems getting the bolts or injectors out (other than getting access to them) but the work was done at around 10,000 miles! He mentioned that the garage pointed the finger at water ingress and corrosion as the cause of the failure. The motorhome then was only 3 years old. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Hi, Re the above.... Water ingress and subsequent corrosion cannot cause an injector to malfunction. It makes them very difficult to get out but in no way can it affect the components inside. Even the electrical connectors are far away from any potential issue with moisture even if it were poured directly over the plugs. A failure that early must have been a manufacturing defect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 euroserv - 2018-10-31 1:19 PM Hi, Re the above.... Water ingress and subsequent corrosion cannot cause an injector to malfunction. It makes them very difficult to get out but in no way can it affect the components inside. Even the electrical connectors are far away from any potential issue with moisture even if it were poured directly over the plugs. A failure that early must have been a manufacturing defect. Hi Nick, that's reassuring at least. The previous owner was convinced it had something to do with water ingress - he even put a line of tape along the bottom edge of the windscreen (that had been replaced earlier) as he thought that's where the water may have got into the engine bay! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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