irish hymer Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 hi everyone im a newby on here hope your all well and enjoying life B-) mi question is i and any advise please, i have put a new pair of 85ah deep cycle leisure batteries in the hymer and i am thinking of putting a 150w dual controller solar panel charging system on to it i have messaged SHAULDT about the ebl unit and the advise was not to put the solar power through the units solar plug space but to go direct to the batteries so will the 150w solar panel be enough for charging i understand about power taken and recharge from HU and alternator i just want to help recharging pressure off the ebl unit any advise please many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJB Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 It seems to be perfectly normal practice to connect directly to the batteries. I'm having a panel fitted and my expert suggests that method....apart from many on this and other forums. No doubt a search will give you hundreds of answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartO Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 If you have taken advice from Schaudt then you should follow it, but normal practice with Schaudt installations is to feed the solar output into the EBL rather than directly to the batteries, so that the EBL can monitor the ebb and flow of electricity and the correct battery state can be displayed on the DT display, which is how it works (very well) on my Hymer. Read the pages on the A&N webiste, which are very informative: http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/solar-power.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 irish hymer - 2019-01-11 11:05 PM hi everyone im a newby on here hope your all well and enjoying life B-) mi question is i and any advise please, i have put a new pair of 85ah deep cycle leisure batteries in the hymer and i am thinking of putting a 150w dual controller solar panel charging system on to it i have messaged SHAULDT about the ebl unit and the advise was not to put the solar power through the units solar plug space but to go direct to the batteries so will the 150w solar panel be enough for charging i understand about power taken and recharge from HU and alternator i just want to help recharging pressure off the ebl unit any advise please many thanks It is very strange for Schaudt to advise you not to take advantage of displaying the Solar current on the Schaudt EBL display unit nor to take advantage of the easy to wire Solar socket setup? It is just 'plug and go' simplicity and can be done in 10 minutes, literally, once the Solar cable is in place. Wiring direct to the batteries on a Schaudt equipped motorhome can add up to two hours extra labour, because of the complication of accessing the Starter battery from the habitation area battery which is where you would be advised to site the Solar Regulator. Using the normal Hymer advised method you are able to access both the Habitation and Starter battery through the Elektroblock EBL front sockets, really simple and quick. It is the same on all the quality manufacturers kit, even Sargent supply £14 'plug and go' cables for almost all their units now, as it's both more efficient, simpler and retains all existing functionality. Some units even have Solar regulators already built in ready to use once the cable is fitted and they charge both habitation battery and Starter battery simultaneously. We don't know any quality manufacturer who advises 'direct to battery'? Almost all modern Charger/Controller units are now designed to control ALL charging, be it from the mains charger, Alternator or Solar. Schaudt have been doing it since 1999, it's taken a while for the rest of the World to catch up, but most have now. Only the fitters who don't understand the workings of a motorhome wire to the batteries. Some of the newer Sargent Caravan systems will even inform you remotely on the phone what the Solar charge rate is, provided it uses approved cabling into the charger/controller and isn't wired to the battery directly. I am puzzled why you were advised as you were, who did you speak to at Schaudt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 It is probably due to the current rating of the Mate-N-Lock connector used to connect the solar controller to the EBL, combined with the potential use of a large solar setup. The MNL connectors are only rated at 14-17Amps depending on wire size but this is for a 30degC temperature rise and probably not under realistic vibration conditions in a typical motorhome. A limit of 10A is more realistic I think. 10A is only about 140W of solar power so anyone with panels rated above about 200W might be approaching this current limit on a good day (depends where you are of course). As mentioned previously, connecting directly to the batteries is not only a pain to do, it will also bypass the EBL current shunt so your remaining capacity readings will be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJB Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Thanks for the various comments...I certainly stand corrected :-S Will now confer with my installation 'expert'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 plwsm2000 - 2019-01-13 10:01 AM It is probably due to the current rating of the Mate-N-Lock connector used to connect the solar controller to the EBL, combined with the potential use of a large solar setup. The MNL connectors are only rated at 14-17Amps depending on wire size but this is for a 30degC temperature rise and probably not under realistic vibration conditions in a typical motorhome. A limit of 10A is more realistic I think. 10A is only about 140W of solar power so anyone with panels rated above about 200W might be approaching this current limit on a good day (depends where you are of course). As mentioned previously, connecting directly to the batteries is not only a pain to do, it will also bypass the EBL current shunt so your remaining capacity readings will be wrong. Plwsm2000, The MNL plugs sockets used by Schaudt are better quality than the 19amp ones normally available online, see this example of an online version rated at 19amps : http://www.te.com/usa-en/products/connectors/power-connectors/rectangular-power/intersection/universal-mate-n-lok-connectors.html?tab=pgp-story So we think the Solar socket will take an easy real Solar 250 watts of Solar Panels which will actually deliver fewer amps to the sockets than the Solar Panel watts equivalent because of the inefficiencies of the regulator and Panel. Few Solar Panel regulators deliver the number of amps you would expect from the Panel 'wattage' rating and don't forget some of those amps may go to the Starter battery via the Fridge power socket. That the Schaudt LRM1218 Solar charger, designed to use the Schaudt Solar sockets, is rated to handle 270 watts of panels re-inforces what we say above, so I don't think it will be because of a 150 watt Solar Panel? Even if what you say could be true, it is still way easier to split the Solar Regulator output across the Solar and Auxillary charging MNL ports than going to the batteries direct. So I would have expected Schaudt to suggest that as an option, which they have done before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plwsm2000 Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 aandncaravan - 2019-01-13 12:20 PM plwsm2000 - 2019-01-13 10:01 AM It is probably due to the current rating of the Mate-N-Lock connector used to connect the solar controller to the EBL, combined with the potential use of a large solar setup. The MNL connectors are only rated at 14-17Amps depending on wire size but this is for a 30degC temperature rise and probably not under realistic vibration conditions in a typical motorhome. A limit of 10A is more realistic I think. 10A is only about 140W of solar power so anyone with panels rated above about 200W might be approaching this current limit on a good day (depends where you are of course). As mentioned previously, connecting directly to the batteries is not only a pain to do, it will also bypass the EBL current shunt so your remaining capacity readings will be wrong. Plwsm2000, The MNL plugs sockets used by Schaudt are better quality than the 19amp ones normally available online, see this example of an online version rated at 19amps : http://www.te.com/usa-en/products/connectors/power-connectors/rectangular-power/intersection/universal-mate-n-lok-connectors.html?tab=pgp-story So we think the Solar socket will take an easy real Solar 250 watts of Solar Panels which will actually deliver fewer amps to the sockets than the Solar Panel watts equivalent because of the inefficiencies of the regulator and Panel. Few Solar Panel regulators deliver the number of amps you would expect from the Panel 'wattage' rating and don't forget some of those amps may go to the Starter battery via the Fridge power socket. That the Schaudt LRM1218 Solar charger, designed to use the Schaudt Solar sockets, is rated to handle 270 watts of panels re-inforces what we say above, so I don't think it will be because of a 150 watt Solar Panel? Even if what you say could be true, it is still way easier to split the Solar Regulator output across the Solar and Auxillary charging MNL ports than going to the batteries direct. So I would have expected Schaudt to suggest that as an option, which they have done before. Allan, My figures also originate from the manufactures (TE connectivity) data. The 19Amp maximum is for 10Awg wire to the contacts (10AWG is approx. 6 sqmm wire) and with 2 current carrying circuits per connector. The bigger wire acts as a heatsink to draw heat away from the actual contact so smaller wires mean lower current handling. Using a probably more common 12AWG/4sqmm wire the max. current drops to 16A and this is for a 30C temperature rise. At an ambient temperature of 40C say, the connector will be more like 70C which is quite hot to touch. Although this will survive for a fair while, it will heat up /cool down each day and thermal cycling a connector that relies on a spring contact force is not a good idea for long term reliability (I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the reason you see so many EBLs with burnt connectors). That is why I think it is a good idea to derate the connector to more like 10A. Some suppliers also rate these connectors at 10A That said, I take your point that you will never get the full power from a solar panel into the battery in real conditions but 200-250W should give 10A easily in southern Spain etc. If I were to install a large solar setup, I would also use the auxilliary charger input on the EBL instead of direct to the batteries (On my EBL, these are Molex minfit sr. connectors and are rated at 50A). In fact on my EBL223, there is a switch for the number of aux.chargers. I have not understood before what this does except that it open circuits the normal MNL solar charger input if set to "2". Now it is clear (to me at least!) that this is intended to deal with the larger solar setups. I have never seen any explaination of this switch in any documatation before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 thanks for reply yes thats what i thought about the battery state and drain gauge the guy from schaudt only said recomended to go direct to the batteries because of the age of the wiring in the vehicle which is a 1995 b564 may i add that it is in very reasonble condition the wiring and the camper alike. do you think that 150w solar is enough ? i see your hymer is a more modern than mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 aandncaravan - 2019-01-12 9:43 PM irish hymer - 2019-01-11 11:05 PM hi everyone im a newby on here hope your all well and enjoying life B-) mi question is i and any advise please, i have put a new pair of 85ah deep cycle leisure batteries in the hymer and i am thinking of putting a 150w dual controller solar panel charging system on to it i have messaged SHAULDT about the ebl unit and the advise was not to put the solar power through the units solar plug space but to go direct to the batteries so will the 150w solar panel be enough for charging i understand about power taken and recharge from HU and alternator i just want to help recharging pressure off the ebl unit any advise please many thanks It is very strange for Schaudt to advise you not to take advantage of displaying the Solar current on the Schaudt EBL display unit nor to take advantage of the easy to wire Solar socket setup? It is just 'plug and go' simplicity and can be done in 10 minutes, literally, once the Solar cable is in place. Wiring direct to the batteries on a Schaudt equipped motorhome can add up to two hours extra labour, because of the complication of accessing the Starter battery from the habitation area battery which is where you would be advised to site the Solar Regulator. Using the normal Hymer advised method you are able to access both the Habitation and Starter battery through the Elektroblock EBL front sockets, really simple and quick. It is the same on all the quality manufacturers kit, even Sargent supply £14 'plug and go' cables for almost all their units now, as it's both more efficient, simpler and retains all existing functionality. Some units even have Solar regulators already built in ready to use once the cable is fitted and they charge both habitation battery and Starter battery simultaneously. We don't know any quality manufacturer who advises 'direct to battery'? Almost all modern Charger/Controller units are now designed to control ALL charging, be it from the mains charger, Alternator or Solar. Schaudt have been doing it since 1999, it's taken a while for the rest of the World to catch up, but most have now. Only the fitters who don't understand the workings of a motorhome wire to the batteries. Some of the newer Sargent Caravan systems will even inform you remotely on the phone what the Solar charge rate is, provided it uses approved cabling into the charger/controller and isn't wired to the battery directly. I am puzzled why you were advised as you were, who did you speak to at Schaudt? hello first and thanks for reply and advise i emailed a, ( udo. lang ) at schaudt , it may be that you are familiar with the 1999 ebl units as mine is a 1995 b564 with a ebl 100 set up i think he was more conserned about the age of the unit and wiring in the hymer more than anything else, i did see the solar plug on the unit and it is why i asked the question i would like to have gone through the ebl unit so as to be able to monitor the batteries but will the unit handle 150w solar ? many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 The EBL 100 was introduced in it's earliest form around 2004, so if you have a 1995 vehicle has one installed it is a retro fit. If that is the case then I understand even less why Udo advised as he did, because the EBL 100 has even better Solar connectivity and capability than the EBL 99 I had assumed was installed? If you send me a copy of the email I can take it up with him, we seem to be disagreeing quite a lot lately, so he won't mind. :-o I would suggest that using a Votronic MPPT charger going via the Schaudt box will save you money, give you dual charging of both Starter and Habitation batteries and be cheaper. You will also benefit from seeing both the Solar charging currents and voltages, for all batteries, on the EBL 100 LCD display. See photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 aandncaravan - 2019-01-21 9:37 AM The EBL 100 was introduced in it's earliest form around 2004, so if you have a 1995 vehicle has one installed it is a retro fit. If that is the case then I understand even less why Udo advised as he did, because the EBL 100 has even better Solar connectivity and capability than the EBL 99 I had assumed was installed? If you send me a copy of the email I can take it up with him, we seem to be disagreeing quite a lot lately, so he won't mind. :-o I would suggest that using a Votronic MPPT charger going via the Schaudt box will save you money, give you dual charging of both Starter and Habitation batteries and be cheaper. You will also benefit from seeing both the Solar charging currents and voltages, for all batteries, on the EBL 100 LCD display. See photo. sorry a typing error i do apologise to you all my ebl unit is a 104 not the 100 as i typed before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 1, 2019 Author Share Posted February 1, 2019 aandncaravan - 2019-01-21 9:37 AM The EBL 100 was introduced in it's earliest form around 2004, so if you have a 1995 vehicle has one installed it is a retro fit. If that is the case then I understand even less why Udo advised as he did, because the EBL 100 has even better Solar connectivity and capability than the EBL 99 I had assumed was installed? If you send me a copy of the email I can take it up with him, we seem to be disagreeing quite a lot lately, so he won't mind. :-o I would suggest that using a Votronic MPPT charger going via the Schaudt box will save you money, give you dual charging of both Starter and Habitation batteries and be cheaper. You will also benefit from seeing both the Solar charging currents and voltages, for all batteries, on the EBL 100 LCD display. See photo. sorry im a bit of a pain i know let me try to explain my hymer is a b564 1995 model the ebl unit is a 104 i dont know if is the original one or not as i have only had the vehicle a few months im just trying to bring it up to the moder day and power is the main aim i have tacled leaks and starting problems with the cold starter and bad earths so now its on to the solar power as i said i asked shauldt and udo advised me to go straight to battries not the wa i wanted to go but i have to respect the manufacturers view as they would now best if you think differently then please be my geust (pm me and ill send you the email from udo i have ordered a votronic mppt 250 and a computer s display to go with it but have not purchased the panels and cables as yet but going with 200 watts panels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 The EBL 104 is very different to the EBL 100 and much older. It was only designed to support one battery and the connectors are low power. You are best going direct to the batteries and taking as much load off the EBL as possible. It is one of the units featured on our 'Add a Second Battery' web page as not being that robust : http://www.aandncaravanservices.co.uk/add-a-second-battery.php . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 thanks for the info is it possible to retro fit a ebl 100 is it easy enough to do, i am led to belive that the aternator on the hymer is a more heavy duty one when built for the german market so would this mean the alternator charging side is heavier wiring how would i go about fitting a ebl 100 many thanks paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 If you guys will pardon what may be a non-runner, but my immediate thought once the age of the EBL104 was revealed, was to change the EBL. I think Allan has said in the past that he sometimes has recon EBLs available, thought he may not wish to announce that on here (advertising etc not encouraged), so I thought it may be excusable for me to make the suggestion. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Brian Kirby - 2019-02-03 12:35 PM If you guys will pardon what may be a non-runner, but my immediate thought once the age of the EBL104 was revealed, was to change the EBL. I think Allan has said in the past that he sometimes has recon EBLs available, thought he may not wish to announce that on here (advertising etc not encouraged), so I thought it may be excusable for me to make the suggestion. :-D Brian, very kind, appreciated. While A and N Caravan do stock reman and new EBL's they are on a exchange, like for like basis. In anycase they are not straightforward to swap over, the EBL 100/101 is very different to the EBL 104. The EBL100/101 has a LCD screen and the 104 an analogue unit. Although the Alternator might be uprated, the cabling is usually standard for all the variations, I think that most 'heavy duty' alternator units from around 1995 will possibly be only around 90 - 100amps, so not up to a big battery bank?. I would suggest that you look towards the bottom of the "Add a second Battery page" for ideas on how to install a separate split charge relay to protect the EBL104? Also bear in mind the EBL 104 has only a 10amp mains charger, so in theory supports a 100Ah battery bank, but I assume with all that Solar it will hardly get used?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Someone sent me an email today about a new 'Battery Document' from Roadpro, After all the stick we have taken over the years for things we have said, it was nice to see someone agreeing for a change, Roadpro write - "Charging a battery from a solar panel : Keeping a battery charged up using a solar panel sounds like a great idea but can actually do more harm than good by overcharging the battery. Some batteries are more susceptible to overcharging than others but even good quality batteries can be damaged if they weren’t designed to be on constant charge (like Banner Energy Bull batteries)". Obviously the same applies to any charging of a battery that doesn't need it, such as mains EHU. The best way with Solar is not to charge the batteries when they don't need it by pulling the fuse between the Solar Panel and the regulator. The document also states - "AGMs are sensitive to charging and must be charged according to the manufacturers’ instructions. The maximum charging voltage is usually 14.7V". Not quite true as many AGM's like 14.8v and Victrons like 15.0v, but at least it's better than a few years ago.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 ok so i have read the adding an additional battery article and have printed it off i allready have 2, 85ah deep cycle batteries in the cabin and the starter battery under bonnet, if i was to put in a different EHU charger and also the solar ie(200w) on the 250 watts votronic mppt which i belive does not over charge batteries as voltage is capped at 13.2 v charge as 13.8 can damage batteries in the long run also i am thinking of doing the RELAY MOD and fridge wiring upgrade as in the article do you think this will releave pressure off the EBL unit as we are wild camping a lot of the time any help is really appriciated i am capable of doing these changes i just need the info if it works out cheaper in the long run to replace the EBL and usage displays unit then thats wat it needs many thanks paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 sorry i forgot am i right in saying that the starter battery is not charged by the EBL unit only by the alternator and only powers vehicle and not the cabin electrics BTW all three batteries are new cheers paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Sorry I can't remember if the EBL 104-3 charges the Starter battery, got one coming in next week from a Mr Maynard for repair, I will ask Martin to have a look. Yes the Votronic is the best motorhome specific Solar charger by a mile, it will charge fast but not overcharge. That will charge the starter battery better than the EBL 104, if it ever did. A new EBL 101 (better than a 100) will be about £350 and the DT201 display (more reliable than the DT200) about £290'ish. You then need a new cable running between the two, about £30 for the kit? So long as you don't ask the EBL 104 to charge up the batteries from low (use the Alternator or Solar to take the edge of the charge to get them above 12.3v ) and so long as the batteries are not AGM's the EBL 104 should last without needing an upgrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 thank you for that info are the prices for EBL and display inc vat and does the 101 have good solar capability many thanks paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 irish hymer - 2019-02-03 10:55 PM thank you for that info are the prices for EBL and display inc vat and does the 101 have good solar capability many thanks paul They are guesstimate prices, as said above we wouldn't be able to supply them because we need like for like exchange, we don't charge VAT, but most other suppliers will. The EBL 101 dedicated Solar port is only 15amps, with 6 amps for the Starter battery but it also has an auxillary charging port which can be used for any charging up to a further 20 amps. The DT201 has the same Solar display features as can be seen in the photos above. A cheaper option than the EBL 101 that we could supply from stock using a cruder LED display, would be an Elektroblock EBL 119 and LT99 display/controller. We can supply those new with the EBL 104 in exchange at £390 + £13 shipping and the existing cable might still work with this set-up but I would have to check. The solar setup is similar to the EBL101. The EBL 119 is much more suited to a bigger battery bank. You won't need a separate split charge relay, but would need to beef up the Alternator wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish hymer Posted February 4, 2019 Author Share Posted February 4, 2019 Thanks for that. The price seem for the 119 seems fair enough. As a additional battery charger I am looking at is £200 approx. And then still have to do other bits like the bigger relay so adding up cost for cost it's probably easier to change the EBL unit and I have s led computer s. Coming with the votronic unit. Would have to add a wire to the alternator or replace the wire with larger amps altogether. If you could check see if he original cables and plugs will fit. I would appreciate it many thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aandncaravan Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 irish hymer - 2019-02-04 12:02 PM Thanks for that. The price seem for the 119 seems fair enough. As a additional battery charger I am looking at is £200 approx. And then still have to do other bits like the bigger relay so adding up cost for cost it's probably easier to change the EBL unit and I have s led computer s. Coming with the votronic unit. Would have to add a wire to the alternator or replace the wire with larger amps altogether. If you could check see if he original cables and plugs will fit. I would appreciate it many thanks. It is a good price as Brownhills charge £588 for an EBL on it's own. Camper UK were selling equivalent EBL's for £650 last year. We are able to give such a good price because we are selling quite a few new EBL 119's to replace the older slower charging 16 amp EBL 99's, which the EBL 119 is the factory 'plug and go' upgrade for. And a good upgrade it is to as some EBL 99's are nearly 20 years old, which is obviously pretty elderly for electronics these days. Not only testament to the Elektroblock EBL 99's original design but to Schaudt for supporting something 20 years old. We would advise you run a second cable of about 16mm alongside the existing one, it is easier to cable tie to an existing one than run a new cable through on it's own. Also 16mm connectors are easy to find. With the cables you already have plus the new 16mm cable you should end with very low voltage drop and good current carrying capability which will make a big difference to battery life and capacity. Especially if you run them from the Alternator itself. The existing cables will need to be fed into new connector blocks, all supplied free with wiring diagrams of the LT99, EBL 119 and EBL 104. Obviously you will get free email Tech Support from both Martin and myself.. If you want to pursue this it is maybe best done via email to aandncaravanservices@gmail.com Sorry to everyone, about the sales bit, but I am blaming Brian. :-D :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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