refillable gas bottles

[alan]

Am looking for some advice in two areas:

I was originally thinking of putting in one refillable gas bottle (11K) and a small calor gas bottle for emergency, but am now debating whether to put two refillable bottles in. Would be grateful for any comments from this fantastic forum.

Second question, can I refill in Croatia and Greece? As this will be on our agenda sometime in the future.

 

Can I take this opportunity of wishing you all a very Happy Christmas and prosperous New Year!

 

Alan :-> :->

[Derek Uzzell]

A single refillable bottle with an exchangeable bottle as back-up is a perfectly practical arrangement (particularly if your planned gas usage is not excessive), will definitely save money and has certain theoretical advantages. Worth looking at

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14056&posts=18

[panagah]

this is exactly what I have just done. I have an adaptor for the small bottle so when in france if I run out i can use their bottles but only of course if I can not get refilled on my gaslow cylinder.

[Derek Uzzell]

alan:

 

A few links that may be useful:

 

http://www.wildcamping.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3534

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2336&posts=2

 

http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showflat.php?Number=936150

 

http://www.askanowner.com/qa/view.asp?s=1&qid=244288

 

Suggest you ask your question separately about LPG in Croatia/Greece.

 

If you head your posting "Croatia and Greece - is LPG readily available?" and ask "I am considering fitting a refiilable gas-bottle system to my motorhome and plan to visit Croatia and Greece. Is LPG readily available in these countries, please?" you may well obtain up-to-date information from people who have been there recently.

[colinfrier]

I have been trying to reduce weight in my Burstner Solano in which I carry 2 11kg Cepsa cylinders.My plan was to replace with 1 Gasflow cylinder thus reducing weight.

Can you fill these cylinders before they are emptyand is the guage reliable?

When on hook up which is 90% of the time a cylinder lasts 3to4 weeks.

Any thoughts on this???

[bob b]

Hi Colin,

           You can top up the cylinder at any time, irrespective of the contents.

The contents gauge mechanism is situated about halfway in the cylinder, so the gauge is monitoring the last 50% of the contents. When the gauge needle is halfway down the green segment, you have 40% left. When the gauge is in the red segment, you have 18% left.

Regarding usage, who can say, depends on the individual and their use.

I should add, when you have 60% for example, contents the gauge will read full.

[alan]

Hi - thanks all, for your interest.

Derek - thanks for the advice, as suggested I'll put a separate posting out.

Alan

[Brian Kirby]

alan - 2008-12-11 10:25 AM ............Second question, can I refill in Croatia and Greece? As this will be on our agenda sometime in the future. Can I take this opportunity of wishing you all a very Happy Christmas and prosperous New Year! Alan :-> :->

Off topic, I'm afraid, but if your post implies you intend travelling to Greece via Croatia, unless you take a ferry across to Italy and back to Greece, you will have to traverse Montenegro and Albania.  Do please be aware that insurance for these countries is virtually unobtainable in UK, and you may have considerable difficulty. 

Also be aware that if your trip to Croatia is likely to include Dubrovnik, you are liable to have to traverse about 15 Km of Bosnia around Neum, and much the same is true for that.  I believe Saga, and one of the Caravan Club's panel of insurers, will give you the necessary Green Card for Bosnia, for a limited period, but most others won't.  There is a ferry alternative to this stretch of road, but it is not guaranteed to take motorhomes on any given day.  Wind driven tidal surges make embarkation / disembarkation impractical from (unpredictable) time to time.

[Derek Uzzell]

bob b,

 

Do you know, please, whether the 'percentage' gauge-readings are the same for 6kg and 11kg Gaslow containers?

 

I'm just curious as I was once told that the same 80% cut-off valve was used for both bottle-sizes and I was wondering if that were true for the gas-level gauges.

 

I'd guess that the float-mechanism for a 11kg bottle must be located further down from the top of the container than for a 6kg canister in order to provide similar percentage readouts, but it would be nice to know if this is so.

[colinfrier]

Hi bob b

Thanks for the info have tried Gaslow web site twice with the same questio they can't be bothered to answer.

Colin

[bob b]

I fitted a Gaslow Refillable system a couple of weeks ago. In answer to Colin's question, I quoted from the Installation Instructions booklet that came with the kit.

The diagram detailing how the gauge works is clearly detailed, but does not state the capacity of the cylinder illustrated, I imagine that the system is the same for all capacity cylinders.

It shows two floats. The top one shuts off the supply at 80% capacity, and the lower float (positioned in the middle of the cylinder) operates the contents gauge.

[bob b]

On the matter of refillables, I noticed that Derek states that he removes his cylinder from the vehicle and takes it to the pump to refill.

Gaslow print a statement from the LP Gas Association on the back of the instruction booklet stating:- It is our advice that user owned,portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at autogas refueling sites.

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be refilled at autogas refilling sites provided they:

• remain in-situ for refilling; and
• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and
• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the vessel.

This view has been confirmed in the minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement Liason Group meeting of 7th July 2005 which states " PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas cylinders.

The statement does use the phases  "it is our advice" and "in our view", so it does not appear that the practice is banned as such.

Has anybody experienced any difficulty refilling a 'loose' cylinder ?

[Cloggie]

Hi.....Alan

Have 2off refillable gas bottles installed a 11& 6kg in my van ( buerstner won't hold 2x 11kg ) and there is no problems filling up anywhere in western Europe as for Croatia and Greece can't comment as we haven't been that far yet.

The value is excellent cheaper gas on the continent and they last long.

:->

[Cloggie]

Hi.....Alan

Have 2off refillable gas bottles installed a 11& 6kg in my van ( buerstner won't hold 2x 11kg ) and there is no problems filling up anywhere in western Europe as for Croatia and Greece can't comment as we haven't been that far yet.

The value is excellent cheaper gas on the continent and they last long.

:->

[Derek Uzzell]

bob b,

 

Not unreasonable advice from the LP Gas Association in my view.

 

I bought my composite cylinder as it was Hobson's Choice - the Gaslow canisters weren't available at the time and large Stako steel containers wouldn't pass through the doorway of my motorhome's gas-locker.

 

The type of cylinder I use was never intended for user-refilling; it's target market is the domestic one. The lack of a 80% cut-off valve means that extra care needs to be taken when refilling - accident-prone people should steer well clear of these containers. There appears to be no general legislation preventing user-refilling of 'loose' bottles, though there would be contractual implications if the bottle were hired rather than owned by the person doing the refilling.

 

In the past there were a few reports of motorcaravanners not being allowed to refill composite LPG bottles, but I always felt this was because the owners of the bottles asked for the containers to be refilled rather than performed the complete task themselves. If I were a service-station attendant and somebody presented me with a LPG bottle (whatever its construction) and asked me to fill it, I'm pretty sure I'd tell them to shove off.

[Curly]

I have 2 x 13 kg Gaslow bottles (been thro' this on another topic) and would not contemplate any thing else, where is the emergency to carry a.n. other bottle bottles can be filled everywhere.

We travelled down as far as the Albanian border this year and had no problem with refilling bottles, never wait for the bottles to empty but fill/top up when it is convenient when putting diesel in or maybe just called in to top up fridge in supermarket, easy peezy lemon squeezy.

Crossing Bosnia was no problem except to say they just take their time but Montenegro wanted every bit of document that has ever been printed and you pay 15 Euros for their road insurance-no I did not ask what you get for 15 Euros as I was already covered by Saga.

Croatia is fabulous will go back, no wild camping but has loads of Auto-camps right along the shore line.

[starvin marvin]

Refillable bottles give excellent flexibility, the issue will be the size of the gas locker. We have a 6kg stako and a 6kg calor with 907 as a back up. If you go to Spain for a long time gas supply is a problem the refill stations are well spread out and you could be faced with a long trip for a small amount of refillable gas.

What we have do is buy an empty 13kg Spanish bottle at a flea market for E10, get it exchanged for a full one for E15 , a regulator costs E7.25, just need then to have say a couple of metres of hose so the bottle can stand on the ground. This arrangement will last us around 4 weeks. When we move on we get rid of the bottle to other Brits.

This is a lot cheaper than using 907's at a refill cost of E12 for 3kg of gas. I keep looking for smaller Spanish bottles that would fit into our locker but with no success so far.

[Derek Uzzell]

An interesting conversation yesterday with an Auto-Trail-owning couple who were refilling their motorhome's gas bottles at the Countrywide Autogas facility at Ross-on-Wye.

 

Countrywide Autogas has been mentioned on this forum before. See:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=9741&posts=3

 

Across the UK Midlands the company currently has 36 sites where autogas is available from 24/7 pumps operated by key/code. Apparently there is no minimum LPG limit regarding annual usage. Fuller details and a downloadable application form are on www.countrywidefarmers.co.uk

 

The couple I spoke to had two large-capacity composite bottles that (like my 5kg canister) had been purchased from MTH Autogas. The composite containers' very light weight compared to steel bottles was appreciated and, when the motorhome was on a campsite for an extended period, it was found useful to be able to remove the bottles from the vehicle and take them (by car) to an autogas refilling-station rather than need to move the motorhome.

 

Intriguingly, one of their MTHA bottles had been fitted with an 80% cut-off valve. This is a thing of legend that I thought (if it existed at all!) had never gone beyond the prototype stage. In fact, I suspect their valve was a prototype as they said Richard Cecil (then MTHA's proprietor) had, for more than 2 years, promised to supply a valve for their second bottle but this had never materialised. I mentioned that MTHA had recently ceased trading, something they had not been aware of.

 

Bottle-refilling 'legality' came up and I was told that, at one FloGas-owned facility, refilling had once been semi-prohibited. The service-station attendant, on seeing the motorhome draw up alongside the LPG pump, warned the Auto-Trail's driver that, should the LPG filling procedure involve opening a motorhome's gas-locker (which one must do with MTHA bottles), he (the attendant) had been instructed by FloGas to prohibit filling from taking place. The attendant added "I shall be going for lunch from 1 till 2, so, if you happened to come back when I was away, obviously I wouldn't know whether or not you needed to open the locker."

 

I've read on this forum and in motorhome magazines of refillable-bottle systems' filler-points deliberately being installed within the gas-locker to avoid having to pierce a hole in the motorhome's bodywork. So the FloGas incident might be worth bearing in mind.

[Wills Wagon]

We travel in UK, France, Italy and Belgium and rarely stay on any site longer than 4 nights and only have one refillable Gaslow 11kg bottle. I dont see the need to have two cylinders if you are moving frequently as when yopu go by an LPG pump you can top the cylinder up. After 3/4 months in summer we only need 5-6 litres, even in winter with gas heating a fill up every month only takes about 8 litres. Why have belt and braces and carry the extra weight? We dont have a gauge to say how much is left, just play it by ear.

[Loyal Lion]

I use propane (red bottles at the moment). With the planned trip to France next year in mind..... Would I be better getting one of these LPG bottles?

 

Further questions:

 

1. Where do I buy the equipment

2. Can it be filled easily in the UK

3. Does it freeze in cold climate's

4. Can it work without changing any equipment within my M/H

 

Thanks in advance..

[Derek Uzzell]

Loyal Lion:

 

To assist with answering your Question 4, it would be helpful to know what make/model/year of motorhome you own and whether its gas-regulator is screwed directly on to the gas-bottle, or separately mounted on the gas-locker's wall with a flexible hose connecting it to the gas-bottle.

[Loyal Lion]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-12-21 9:40 AM

 

Loyal Lion:

 

To assist with answering your Question 4, it would be helpful to know what make/model/year of motorhome you own and whether its gas-regulator is screwed directly on to the gas-bottle, or separately mounted on the gas-locker's wall with a flexible hose connecting it to the gas-bottle.

Thanks for coming back Derek

 

Its a Bessacar E785. The regulator is mounted to the locker wall.

[Derek Uzzell]

Loyal Lion:

 

Question 1: Would it be sensible for you to have a refillable gas-cylinder system installed in your Bessacarr in preparation for your planned trip to France?

 

Answer: Too many variables for a firm Yes-or-No reply, I'm afraid.

 

How much gas can your motorhome carry? How long will you be abroad? Will your trip be in hot or cold weather? Do you plan to use campsites with 230V hook-ups or 'wild camp'? Do you anticipate going abroad regularly? Do you see a refillable system being advantageous to you in the UK?

 

Take a look at my attempt to cover the various options on

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=2819&posts=1

 

 

Question 2: From where can you obtain the equipment for a refillable LPG system?

 

Answer: Gaslow cylinders are the market leaders in the UK. If you GOOGLE 'pages from the UK' using "Gaslow" as the search term, you'll retrieve plenty of Gaslow-related websites including

 

http://www.gaslow.co.uk/

 

and

 

http://www.cmr-limited.com/gas.html

 

a company that provides a mobile fitting service.

 

However, there are alternatives to Gaslow products. For example:

 

http://www.gasrefill.com/index.html

http://www.autogastanks.co.uk/

 

 

Question 3: Does installing a refillable LPG system involve changing any equipment within your motorhome?

 

Answer: It need not.

 

The only critical difference between an 'exchange-only' bottle (eg. a Calor cylinder) and a container designed for user-refilling (eg. a Gaslow bottle) is that the latter has a supplementary fitting, separate from the gas supply-valve, through which the container is filled.

 

Fitting the system is straightforward in principle. In your case - connect refillable bottle to existing regulator with a suitable hose, decide where you want the refilling-point to be (eg. embedded in motorhome's bodywork, on bracket beneath chassis, in gas-locker), install refilling-point and connect its hose to refillable bottle - and that's basically it.

 

Obviously, if the intention is to DIY the task, one needs to be completely confident of one's ability to do the work safely and correctly. Any doubts, then it's much wiser to get the job done professionally. I think quite a few motorhome dealerships will now install Gaslow systems and it would be sensible to shop around for the best price.

 

 

Question 4: Is refilling easy in the UK?

 

Answer: Yes.

 

You might find it tricky manoeuvring the motorhome close to a LPG pump sometimes (and see my FloGas comment in my December 20 posting on this thread), but otherwise you shouldn't have any difficulties. Similarly for France.

 

 

Question 5: Are there freezing problems in cold weather?

 

Answer: Potentially there are: in practice probably not.

 

'Autogas' is intended as a fuel to be delivered to a vehicle's motor in liquid form. Its use in a motorhome for heating, cooking and powering fridges involves the gas being delivered to the motorhome's appliances in gaseous state. In very cold weather butane becomes reluctant to vaporise and this characteristic may be significant when the autogas involved includes a high percentage of butane.

 

Autogas ('GPL') in France is said to be a mix of 65% butane/35% propane (Greece, Italy and Spain apparently have an even higher percentage of butane in their autogas). Consequently, if you chose to spend extended periods in deep snow at the top of a mountain and kept refilling your gas cylinder with French autogas, you'd be getting progressively more and more butane in your bottle as only the propane component would be being burned off. However, I doubt if too many UK motorcaravanners use their motorhomes in that manner, though it's something worth being aware of. No problems in the UK where autogas is near as dammit 100% propane.

 

See the following link for a more in-depth discussion:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=13575&posts=7

[rupert123]

Loyal Lion - 2008-12-21 9:32 AM

 

I use propane (red bottles at the moment). With the planned trip to France next year in mind..... Would I be better getting one of these LPG bottles?

 

Further questions:

 

1. Where do I buy the equipment

2. Can it be filled easily in the UK

3. Does it freeze in cold climate's

4. Can it work without changing any equipment within my M/H

 

Thanks in advance..

 

To me this is a 'no brainer'. The only reason I can see for not fitting refillables is you cannot afford it. Do not fit one get two with an auto change over valve. As Derek has said just Google it for buying. It can be filled easily in most places but I would always get an external filler. Mine has never frozen. Normally no equipment changes although some fridge makers do not reccomend it, see you fridge manual to see if your is one.

[RupertGS]

Agree entirely with my namesake above. The whole point of having refillable bottles is that you don't have to undo a Calor bottle, scraping your knuckles in the process, before lugging it to a dealer to be exchanged.

I fill up both and keep my eye on them. As soon as one empties I know that I have days left before I need to refill the second one. I've never had a problem in Europe finding a supplier.

As he also said, there's only one good reaon for not switching to Gaslow, which is the cost. If you can afford it, go for it.