tyres...again

[Guest Keith T]

Need to replace front tyres shortly, have done 26k miles, so quite happy with this. The motorhome was fitted new with Michelin 215/75 R16C XC Camping tyres. Spoke to ATS locally, and they quote £112.99 +VAT fitted each. Is this a good price? They also suggest Michelin Agilis (?) as they usually fit these (£103.99 +VAT), or Kleber,at £74+VAT both same spec/ 8 ply . Any experience of either of these? I know there have been various posts in the past about typres, but updated info and comments will be appreciated. . Thanks.

[Guest PeteC]

Hi Keith I have Agilis fited by the manufacturer Ours is a van conversion They have done over 20,000 miles & look like they still have a few thousand left in them. Ours are 225 /whatever As a van driver for the last 15 years I have no problem with this type of tyre They are made for full oad operation - most delivery vans are used on full load with periods of no load Camping tyres as used on caravans were supposed to be able to take being stationary for lengthy periods When we did caravan & went to rallies every weekend the van still did more time standing than running I always run mine at full pressure The weight unladen (as a MH) is about 1/2 full load (as a van) Personally I would go for the agilis at £103.99 + VAT

[Guest Mike Chapman]

Hello Keith, To answer your questions. The quoted prices for both the Agilis 81 and the XC Camping are about average fitted but you may be able to source either from mail order on-line. I am not sure if Micheldever Tyres are now supplying van tyres but they may be worth a try as they normally quote a competitive price. Remember delivery charges. Most tyre dealers will fit customer supplied tyres but will charge for this service. It's a case of working out the total and comparing to ATS. The Michelin XC Camping is 10 ply rated against the Agilis 81 which is 8 ply rated. There is a new spec XC Camping available from the end of this month. Kleber are a Michelin company so the tyres should be good. They usually come out good in various tyre road tests. Personally I usually try to have one tyre make/type/spec all round as this overcomes any problem with the spare. If the tyres are different spec is the spare tyre compatible with the tyres fitted? There is a wealth of postings about tyres on the forum but for peace of mind it is better to speak to the Manufacturer(s)Technical Help-line before committing to any solution. Regards, Mike Chapman

[Guest RonB]

Mike - I hope that you mean Tyre Manufacturers and not Motorhome Manufacturers! The later are clueless when it comes to tyres (and a lot of other things, do I hear someone say?). I've had motorhomes weighing under 3500 to 5000kg which all recommended 80lb pressure with Michelin Camping. I know the reason why but it's just not good enough.

[Guest mike.T]

There appears to be a lot of people running around with these tires on there pride and joy! Over inflated!! According to the Technical dept of Michelin the max 80psi is only to be used when the camper is parked up for any length of time !! Not running on the roads I have just spoken to the man at Michelin on 0845 355 1535 concerning Michelin Camping XC Tyres . I gave him my axle weights as 1800kg, Front and 2020 Rear (3850 mgw) he came back with the optimum pressures as 58psi FRONT & 61psi REAR . I said that I carry a 100kgs scooter on the back and he said 65psi on the rear sound about right . I also told the man at Michelin that some people are running at the 80psi pressure he said this is far to high and hard . The phone Nº is there to use but you must have your axle weights to get an optimum pressures it's up to other people what they run there tyres at but “this 80psi” is miss leading and should be rectified ASAP

[Guest Stuart]

I've just had 2 Avon tyres (same size and 8 ply)fitted by my local independent garage for £72.85 each.

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Mike.T: Obviously I don't know who you spoke to at Michelin but, whoever it was, he/she has given you some very strange advice (either that or they were having a laugh at your expense!). If you search the forum using the term "XC Camping" (omitting the quotes) you'll retrieve many past postings about this particular tyre pattern including references to the 'recommended' 80psi inflation pressure. RonB: It's not just the motorhome converters. What follows is an extract from of a letter of mine to Ford (UK) Customer Relationship Centre about my Transit-based Hobby that I collected from Germany last July. (Non-techies read no further!!) "When I took delivery of the motorhome its tyres were inflated to 72psi (Front) and 80psi (Rear) - this was despite the wheels having 'normal' tyre-valves and the Continental Vanco-8 215/75 R16C tyres having a sidewall-stated maximum pressure of 70psi. The German motorhome dealer's phone call to Hobby produced revised figures of 71psi Front and Rear, conflicting with Hobby's own User Guide recommendations of 61psi(F) and 70psi(R). The motorhome's FWD 3500kg platform-cab chassis does not specifically appear in the Transit handbook, but Ford's recommended inflation pressures for 3.5t chassis with the same maximum axle-loads (1665kg(F) and 2250kg(R)) and 215/75 R16C tyres are 47psi(F) and 67psi(R). To confuse matters further, there is a Ford data-plate on the driver's door-pillar specifying 43.5psi(F) and 79.8psi(R). I believe Ford began making this special Transit platform-cab chassis available to motorhome builders in early-2004 and it is currently used by four major manufacturers (Chausson, Challenger, Eura Mobil and Hobby). Until recently, every motorhome I've seen that employed this chassis had Michelin XC Camping tyres as original equipment and this factor doubtless explains Ford's data-plate figures. For 215/75 R16C XC Camping tyres, Michelin's technical data booklet indicates that 43.5psi would be the inflation pressure appropriate for a 1665kg axle-load. For a 2250kg axle-load a pressure of around 63psi would be suitable, but Michelin's booklet adds a footnote to the XC Camping data-section that says "For maximum load conditions when used on mainland Europe it is recommended that the rear tyres are inflated to a pressure of 80psi". I've had protracted correspondence with Michelin about XC Camping. My understanding is that it is essentially a 10 ply-rated tyre marked as 8 ply-rated. This offers certain side-benefits - it meets homologation requirements for the light commercial vehicle chassis on which most European motorhomes are constructed and it provides a potential 'safety factor' for motorhome owners who overload their vehicles beyond the maxima shown on their tyres' side-walls. The latter practice is claimed by Michelin to be commonplace in mainland Europe (though my experience suggests it's little different in the UK), hence the recommendation to use 80psi in order to exploit the tyre's ultimate load-carrying capacity. Michelin acknowledge that XC Camping's design-capability of being operated at high inflation-pressures can lead to misunderstanding amongst motorhome owners, but it's very plain that chassis and motorhome manufacturers can be equally misled. When XC Camping tyres are fitted to rims with metal tyre-valves and inflated to 80psi, the consequential effect on relatively lightweight motorhomes is an appallingly harsh ride and degraded road-holding, braking etc. - but there is no actual safety impact on the tyre itself. The trouble begins when XC Camping is inflated to 80psi but metal valves are not used (this was the case with all the Transit-based motorhomes I've mentioned above) and the situation worsens when a 'genuine' 8PR tyre (like Continental's Vanco-8) replaces XC Camping but the 80psi pressure is not reduced to match the substitute tyre's lower design-maximum pressure. Personally, I'm no fan of the XC Camping pattern - it's expensive, regularly unobtainable and (as confirmed by independent tests) offers comparatively poor performance in wet weather. Even Michelin recommend their Agilis pattern as preferable for owners of motorhomes that are not operated beyond their legal weight limits. So I was delighted to see that Hobby were now building Transit-based motorhomes with Continental Vanco tyres as original equipment. It was predictable approaching inevitable that the tyre pressures recommended by Hobby would be unsuitable (which is why I took my pressure-gauge with me to Germany!), but it's worrying that Ford has compounded the error. It's also a mite concerning that none of the motorhomes built on this Ford chassis appear to have been fitted with metal tyre-valves, but (presumably) have recommended tyre inflation-pressures that really need them. The Hobby has an EC Certificate of Conformity that provides technical information about it. This certificate confirms the vehicle's maximum permitted axle-loads as 1665kg(F) and 2250kg(R) and the maximum authorised mass (MAM) as 3500kg. It also gives the distribution on the axles of the MAM - 1444kg(F) and 2056kg(R). Continental(UK) has provided me with the following inflation-pressure recommendations for the 215/75 R16C Vanco-8 tyre pattern: 1444kg - 44psi 1665kg - 47psi 2056kg - 62psi 2250kg - 69psi On this basis, any tyre pressures beyond 47psi(F) or 69psi(R) will be inappropriately high. And, as a Hobby T-600 FC weighs in at around 3000kg in ready-to-drive condition (including weight allowances for a driver and 90%-full fuel, fresh-water and LPG reserves), it is very likely that significantly lower pressures could be employed safely even when the motorhome is normally loaded. (Naturally, this assumption would need to be confirmed by taking weigh-bridge readings and seeking advice from the tyre manufacturer.) Apologies for going on about this, it's one of my pet subjects. As things stand, it appears that Ford is recommending rear-tyre inflation pressures for Transit-based Hobby motorhomes that are at best unsuitable and at worst may result in tyre failure. It also seems reasonable to assume that the same pressures will have been recommended for all motorhomes using this chassis, not just those built by Hobby." (Subsequent checking of a variety of different motorhomes has proven my final assumption to be correct - all coachbuilt designs (whether LHD or RHD) constructed on the Transit FWD platform-cab chassis carry a Ford data-plate specifying 43.5psi(F) and 79.8psi (R) tyre-pressures.) Ford (UK) Customer Relationship Centre phoned me later and offered the following advice: 1. The inflation-pressure data on a tyre's sidewall don't count - the information only applies to the USA market. 2. It's a motorhome, so the motorhome converter is responsibility for tyre-pressure recommendations not the chassis manufacturer. 3. It's a German motorhome, so it's nothing to do with Ford (UK). I argued that the rear-tyre pressure recommended on Ford's data-plate was clearly excessive and possibly unsafe. If a motorhome owner had an accident where this sky-high pressure was considered to be contributory I anticipated Ford would be in the firing-line for providing wrong guidance on their data-plate. I emphasised that writing to Ford about this had been an altruistic gesture on my part, but if Ford believed my observations were irrelevant and chose to ignore them then that was fine by me.

[Guest Mike Chapman]

Hello RonB, Yes I did mean the Tyre Manufacturer(s). My (poor) opinion of the information given by the Coachbuilders and Vehicle Manufacturers is well documented in other threads on this forum. Derek Uzell and I have been regular contributors to this subject and have both followed the same course of action in regular correspondence to coachbuilders and vehicle manufacturers. I have nothing further to add to Dereks' posting except to say I am not sure why he thinks that the information given to Mike T by Michelin is wrong. May I add to the information by pointing out that serious under or over inflation can lead to prosecution under Construction and Use Regulations, Condition and Maintenance of Tyres. "The vehicle shall not be used on the road if the tyre is not so inflated as to make it fit for the use to which the motor vehicle or trailer is being put" A vehicle that should have a correct tyre inflation pressure of say 58 psi being run at 80 psi (Approx 38% over inflated) will be deemed to be unfit. The Police and Vehicle Inspectorate seem to work to an allowance of 10% to 15% for over inflation but may not look kindly at any under inflation especially on a heavily laden vehicle. Apart from the legal aspects a seriously over inflated tyre is far more likely to pick up punctures than a correctly inflated one and far more likely to break away under heavy braking and cornering. Regards, Mike Chapman.

[Guest Keith T]

Hi all, and thanks for these postings. Re Mike's statement about the police view of over/under inflation, I wonder whose pressure advice they work on. My rapido ststes 80psi, my local garage recommend 74psi which is what I nowe use, and this gives a much more comfortable ride, and handling is excellent. ATS certainly recommende the Agilis, but add cost is not great so will consider these when I have to change, probably anothere couple of months. Motorhome went through MOT okay today and fornt tyres show 7mm, so technically well OK, but don't kinow wheterh they would do the 2/2500 miles I need for France. Any views?

[Guest Mike Chapman]

Hello Keith, I am a bit confused, you posted that your front tyres needed replacing but they have 7 mm of tread. Is the replacement due to the age of the tyres? If the sidewalls are good and the tyres were passed as OK at the MOT then 7 mm should easily do another 2500 miles if the tyres are correctly inflated. Tyre pressures should be set according to the tyre manufacturers recommendation for the axle weights of your Rapido measured on a weighbridge. If you keep the weighbridge ticket and the tyre manufacturers recommended pressures, according to those weights, then showing this to the vehicle inspector and/or police at the very least shows that you have taken the matter seriously. The police and inspectors should have enough detailed knowledge to check a vehicle pulled over for inspection. My understanding is that if there is any dispute they will check with the tyre manufacturer. This will be the only valid figure because the tyres fitted may not be those originally supplied with the vehicle. An example of this is the maximum pressure difference between Michelin Agilis 81(65psi) and XC Camping (80 psi). In your example of 74 psi, the XC Camping would be within it's tolerance and the Agilis 9 psi above the allowed maximum and out of tolerance. My recommendation would be to get the Rapido weighed if possible at the maximum weight you are going to use for touring then consult Michelin on the correct pressures to use. If you have time, get their recommendation in writing which they will be happy to provide. Regards, Mike Chapman.

[Guest Keith T]

Hi Mike, thanks for this add info. Prior to MOT I asekd the testing garage to have a quick look to see the front tyres would pass. Yes, they are OK, but as you say with this tread another 2500 miles should be OK. But before I go to france the van is likely to do at least 1/1500 mils in UK ( we live in Cornwall and any trip away seems to be 750+ miles!) My concern is that they are not on the edge of technical or safety limits before i get back from France, as I prefer to have them changes in UK where at least I can understand the language better. I suspect that not many of us will have a weight/trye cerificate through a weighbridge, I'm happy that I am not anything like moverweight even when fully loaded. I assume that under normal situations the police would use the manufacturers/converters stated figure for tp as the 'correct' ones!

[Guest Mike T]

Derek’ regarding “(either that or they were having a laugh at your expense!).” To day I phoned Michelin again on 0845 366 1535 Please note last thread I gave the wrong phone nº Sorry!! ) the pressure came back 60 psi all round, based on 1820 kg front axle and 2020 kg rear axle (3850kg mgw. and yes I did get the persons name Derek) As a recommended running pressure (Not that far away from my previous thread pressures,) We did get into conversation regarding the 80psi yes the tyre is designed to work at this pressure. But it very hard ride and again I was told the 80psi is the max pressure to use when the camper is stored for any length of time I was told the 80psi was to allow for abuse and overweight situations. He went on to say that Michelin did a survey and found most of continental camper vans to be in overweight situations. Michelin words not mine. I repeat this is the recommended running pressure from Michelin using there XC Camping tires. Not sure what the legal aspects is but a recommended pressure from the makers is what I will go by thanks an over inflated tire’s is far more likely to pick up punctures than a correctly inflated one and far more likely to break away under heavy braking and cornering as Mike Chapman points out. So the bottom line is we have a tire that the makers recommends to use at 60 psi and the tire can safely work up to 80 psi is it over inflated above the makers recommended pressure or not? Over to you Derek

[Guest Derek Uzzell]

Mike.T: My fault for being imprecise. It was your second sentence only to which I was referring, namely:: "According to the Technical dept of Michelin the max 80psi is only to be used when the camper is parked up for any length of time !! Not running on the roads." The primary justification for fitting Michelin XC Camping tyres to a motorhome is if it is anticipated that the vehicle may be overloaded beyond the design-maximum load-carrying capability of same-size 'ordinary' tyres (such as Agilis 81). But to cope with such additional loading XC Camping must be inflated to match - that's why it's maximum load-carrying capability requires a pressure of 80psi. But for Michelin to tell you (as you originally said) that 80psi should never be used when a motorhome is driven on the road, merely being reserved for when the vehicle is static for extended periods, is plainly laughable. Obviously you should follow Michelin's recommendations regarding suitable tyre pressures for your own motorhome (that's just good sense) and I had not intended my remark to apply to that part of your posting. (I'm unsure about your latest statement "I was told the 80psi is the max pressure to use when the camper is stored for any length of time". Did Michelin warn you not to increase the pressure beyond 80psi in such circumstances, or recommend that you set the pressure to 80psi?)

[Guest Mike T]

Hi Derek Regarding ". Did Michelin warn you not to increase the pressure beyond 80psi in such circumstances, or recommend that you set the pressure to 80psi?)” My understanding of the conversation was “recommend that you set the tire to a higher pressure when parked up for any length of time up about to about 80psi’ Maybe I also was a bit at fault incorrectly, worded in my first thread !!

[Guest Brian Kirby]

Sorry to come in so late, chaps, but I was wondering if Michelin had ever quantified the "any length of time" bit above? For instance, if the van is driven every four weeks or so, should the higher pressures by adopted while parked, reduced before driving and then re-inflated back to 80psi before parking again for the next four weeks? Its just that, being a bit of a lazy s*d, that does sound uncomfortably like making a meal of it! I do, as a matter of course, check the pressures before taking off, and correct them if in need, but don't relish that many visits to the filling station. I already get black looks from others waiting to use the air line: seems to be something to do with the size of the van! Does anyone have the authorised version? Also, while on, may I point to my post on weights, tyres and pressures, regarding how axle loads vary as one's journey unfolds. Could I also add that Keith hasn't said how many miles his 'van has covered to date. Isn't the tread depth on a ney XC around 10mm? If he knows the mileage to date, he could get an approximate rate of wear in mm per 1000 miles. That would give a (very) rough guide as to how much further he could expect his tyres to travel, all things being equal! Finally, because he appears not to have done so (apologies if you have, Keith), may I urge him to vist his local weighbridge fully laden? Rapidos are good, but they are fairly heavy, so don't have that generous a load allowance, especially on the individual axles. Remember Keith, its the axles that tend to run you into trouble, before you hit the limit for the whole 'van. The weighbridge is normally used for bulk weighing of trucks. Truck arrives fully laden and is weighed. Truck then offloads and is re-weighed (or vice evrsa). Difference (calculated by the machine) is weight of delivery (or pick up). The operator will be familiar with this process so should be happy to take two weights, the first will be your whole vehicle, value A, then you drive just far enough forward to take the front wheels off the platform and he takes the second weight (the rear axle alone), value B, then the machine does the delivery calculation and arrives at the third value A-B, which, in this case, is your front axle. You thus have the all in weight plus front and rear axles individually, probably accurate to a rounded 10Kg. Local Trading Standards should be able to tell you where your nearest public weighbridge is, usually builders merchant, sometimes scrap yard. It may pay to ring the yard first, though, to find out when is a quiet time to visit - so you don't get mixed up with a load of impatient HGV drivers! Regards Brian