x2/50 2.3 2000miles with a duff EGR valve

[colin]

Well it's been an 'entertaining' time :-S

Question is, was it my service using fully synthetic 5-40 oil (no semi available at time), was it the mice, or was it just co-incidence?

 

First sign was just before we went away, going around roundabout on A1 low power, thought I had changed up to 5th instead of 3rd so did some box stirring, but then hit trafic and by the time road cleared all was well, so just put it down to 'one of those things'.

First day in france, engine just getting up to temp and power drop for 1 min(? ), then all ok.

Over the next week this was a common occurrence, on first start up and warm up it would drop power just as it got warm then clear but if stopping (say for lunch or sight seeing) it would be perfectly ok on warming up.

Then last sunday whilst climbing out of Tarn Gorge it went into 'limp home' mode, and engine manegment light came on. RAC where called and breakdown truck took us to a 'peugeot assistance' garage, (well they do have x2/50's if not 2.3 as fiat). Monday morning and plug in the bosch diagnostics and as I guessed it showed EGR problem. Next came the fun, my poor french and a garage owner who spoke no english at all would not speak slowly and liked to use a dozen words where one would do. After much ringing around for parts it was decided to clear the fault codes clean the EGR valve and cross our fingers.

Late monday afternoon saw us on our way, ten miles down the road the engine management light came back on, but the engine seemed to be running ok and had been warned this might happen, so we pushed on. For the past week as we worked our way back up france it was a lottery as to if the light came on and at what time the engine would lose power, although it would only be for a minute. Eventually found it best to either keep power on or to coast on tickover, using engine braking would inevitably lead to a power loss.

So now the decision, do I take it to mates garage who has no experiance of x2/50's, or take it to a Fiat garage knowing that previously they have been found wanting, or do I just strip it down myself and get the oven cleaner out to the valve?

 

[hallii]

Mines a Transit, but it doesn't matter what make the vehicle is, if it has an EGR it will fail at some point. Mine lasted 30K.

 

I swapped it myself, a couple of bolts and a plug and a borrowed code reader to reset the fault codes |(although that is not actually necessary).

 

They have to be considered as a routine service item I am afraid, a long term one but nonetheless they only last a finite time.

 

Like all modern "improvements" to engine management systems they introduce a further level of complication.

 

DPF, Cats, ECU, DMF, Common rail, MAF, MAP, and ad infinitum, they are all there to improve fuel consumption and cut down on emissions which they do very well. They do nothing for reliability and ease of servicing though!

 

I would either just get a new one fitted or fit one yourself, then get the codes read (or better still get the codes read first) cleaning EGRs only works short term.

 

H

[euroserv]

Hello Colin,

 

I think I recall that you have a Euro4 2.3?

If this is the case; your problem may be the EGR solenoid valve, which on late 2.3's is more often an issue than the throttle body which after 2009 was a much more reliable design.

 

If you are having a series of malfunctions it would be worth removing the rubber pipe from the right hand side of the valve and see if this cures it. It does affect the emissions slightly so you can't leave this pipe off indefinitely but it will probably identify a cheaper and easier fix for you.

 

I also recommend getting a second earth strap fitted at the gearbox end cover to chassis rails. This can help with all kinds of little (and not so little) electronic faults.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[snowie]

hallii - 2013-06-24 10:50 AM

 

Mine lasted 30K.

They have to be considered as a routine service item I am afraid,

Like all modern "improvements" to engine management systems they introduce a further level of complication.

 

H

 

Interesting comments Geoff; Colin's experiences are pretty worrying I think.

 

I've had a "whistling EGR" for at least 5K miles now, including our last trip to Croatia. (mileage now approx 37K I think)

No power loss and fuel consumption not affected as far as I can tell.

 

If I'd read of Colin's experiences before we left on that trip I think I'd have thought twice about going. I've had no loss of power or other symptoms, and the engine management light hasn't come on.

Sounds like I'm on borrowed time though?

 

When the whistling started I thought I read something about an electrical problem that might be linked to EGR failure, in which case the solution could involve considerable other work. Being a Fiat, that uncertainty of diagnosis and cure doesn't surprise me. It also makes me wary of a trip to the Fiat garage.

Have other people resolved this problem recently?

regards

alan b

[BGD]

Sorry to hear that, but ain't it just the wonder of technical progress.

 

Thank heavens there's no EGR valve to go wrong on the much simpler earlier Ducato engines.

[Guest JudgeMental]

BGD - 2013-06-24 11:42 AM

 

Sorry to hear that, but ain't it just the wonder of technical progress.

 

Thank heavens there's no EGR valve to go wrong on the much simpler earlier Ducato engines.

 

You mean the ones that sound and drive like a tractor? 8-)

[colin]

hallii - 2013-06-24 10:50 AM

 

 

They have to be considered as a routine service item I am afraid, a long term one but nonetheless they only last a finite time.

 

 

Whilst I agree these things will have to be factored in in this case it's 2 and a bit years and 11.000miles so a bit early.

[colin]

BGD - 2013-06-24 11:42 AM

 

Sorry to hear that, but ain't it just the wonder of technical progress.

 

Thank heavens there's no EGR valve to go wrong on the much simpler earlier Ducato engines.

 

Whilst the limp home mode was a bit disconcerting, the power loss made it drive like our 1980's works transit, but still returned much better fuel consumpsion. :D

[BGD]

JudgeMental - 2013-06-24 12:46 PM

 

BGD - 2013-06-24 11:42 AM

 

Sorry to hear that, but ain't it just the wonder of technical progress.

 

Thank heavens there's no EGR valve to go wrong on the much simpler earlier Ducato engines.

 

You mean the ones that sound and drive like a tractor? 8-)

 

 

 

 

Yep, that's the ones. ;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

colin - 2013-06-24 12:13 PM

 

hallii - 2013-06-24 10:50 AM

 

 

They have to be considered as a routine service item I am afraid, a long term one but nonetheless they only last a finite time.

 

 

Whilst I agree these things will have to be factored in in this case it's 2 and a bit years and 11.000miles so a bit early.

 

yes mine the same age and milage :-S a google search seems to indicate this a common problem...

[colin]

euroserv - 2013-06-24 11:09 AM

 

Hello Colin,

 

I think I recall that you have a Euro4 2.3?

If this is the case; your problem may be the EGR solenoid valve, which on late 2.3's is more often an issue than the throttle body which after 2009 was a much more reliable design.

 

If you are having a series of malfunctions it would be worth removing the rubber pipe from the right hand side of the valve and see if this cures it. It does affect the emissions slightly so you can't leave this pipe off indefinitely but it will probably identify a cheaper and easier fix for you.

 

I also recommend getting a second earth strap fitted at the gearbox end cover to chassis rails. This can help with all kinds of little (and not so little) electronic faults.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

You are correct left production line early 2011, was not present when some of the work was done, they where goong to replace top valve with one off iveco that was in yard, but don't know if it happened, when on test drive lost power, manager spoke on phone then we stopped and he did something which improved matters, when we got back to garage mechanic lifted bonnet and replaced rubber pipe on top valve.

[euroserv]

I am with BGD on this one; give me an ultra-reliable 2.8idtd or JTD any day!

 

The earlier (from 2006 to 2008) throttle bodies used to break at the butterfly valve. The solenoid that operates it becomes detatched from the butterfly and sticks in one place. Later ones do not break like that but still are prone to sticking. NONE of our 2007 vehicles that had new bodies during the first 2 years and 1000,000 miles have needed another one since.

 

I am working on a 2009 right now with the usual symptoms and have tried everything except the throttle body. It seems inevitable.

 

Nick

[colin]

As a little aside, asked gf several times if she could see any black smoke(exhaust exit is on passenger side on ours as SLD is on drivers side) but none was apparent, but was following a Murvi on L3 x2/50 base for an hour or so and noticed at one stage that it was emitting black smoke on inclines then seemed to clear up, so I'm guessing they where having problems.

[colin]

euroserv - 2013-06-24 11:09 AM

 

 

If you are having a series of malfunctions it would be worth removing the rubber pipe from the right hand side of the valve and see if this cures it.

 

Nick

 

Update, not had much time to investigate fully. One thing that started happening during the later stages was the tickover became eratic, it would drop off allmost like it would stall, then the engine management would bump it up to 1000rpm, so on tickover it is constantly 'hunting', pulling off the rubber pipe from the righthand side (or both sides for that matter) has made no differance to this. Unfortunatly I've not had any time to give it a good run, but this doesn't look good to me.

[euroserv]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad new Colin. It's going to need a new throttle body.

[colin]

euroserv - 2013-07-01 12:59 PM

 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad new Colin. It's going to need a new throttle body.

 

Yes that what i feared would be case, looks like it might be a trip to MK when I have the time.

[colin]

Well bit of an update, been to Fiat dealer and it's mixed messages from the diagnostics. The fault codes show EGR, but symptoms are as Nick says throttle body. Mechanic was fairly certain it wasn't EGR and as Nick's experiance had never had one go wrong on this year, just to make sure checked it out with vacuum gauge, this seems to show it working OK, so just checked the pipes,one way vavle and conections on top solenoid which is the other common fault and somewhere along the way the the tickover decided to start working correctly, the first time for several hundred miles. So at this we where slightly thrown, the diagnostics where now showing everything working correctly and engine was running perfectly.

At this stage we decided that it needed a run to see if it would be OK, the mechanic advised that if it reoccured it might be worthwhile me fitting a new top solenoid which is cheapest option and dead simple to do, but he is still suspicious of the throttle body, but he says although Fiat diagnostics will show this as EGR it has always been a different code (401/402 ?) than the one showing and I think he said EPI?. I think he said he's fitted about a dozen or more of them.

Anyway 20 miles down the road it played up again, although the tickover seems OK, there is a random drop in power, this seems to be when accelerating up throu the gears or when reapplying power after coasting.

Not sure how much a solenoid costs, but he believed about 300 for the throttle body.

Anyway I'm off the sort out a second earth lead.

 

[euroserv]

Hi Colin,

 

The symptoms are indicating that the throttle body is not responding to the change from open throttle to closed quickly enough and this suggests that it is sticking in the fully open position. It's possible that you might be able to get it cleaned out and potentially save some money on parts, but removing it will cost the same as changing it so I am pretty sure I would just put a new one on for peace of mind.

 

NIck

[spospe]

Maybe a daft question, but I have seen EGR cleaner in a spray can in my local motor accessory shop; would this be of any help?

 

I am not too sure on the 2.3 engine if this magic mist would have the cleaning effect Nick has mentioned (i.e. can it get to the right parts and if it can, will it work?). If this stuff does the trick, then it looks to be a simple and inexpensive solution to a potentially expensive repair..

[euroserv]

Hi spospe,

 

It's not a daft question at all but unfortunately it is not going to work.

 

You can remove the rubber hose to the left of the throttle body and this would give good access to the parts that need cleaning. The problem is that the other end of the body curves downwards and connects to a series of mainly metal parts which are very difficult to remove from the body; so the question is.... where does all of the excess cleaner, and the dirt that you are trying to shift end up? The answer is; in the cylinder head and this could cause harm to the injectors, glow plugs or any number of sensors while also resulting in some very strange noises from the engine and potential faults while this concoction is burned.

Bottom line? I would not do it.

Most of the really effective cleaners need to be left in the part concerned for a longer period than can be achieved by just spraying it in there anyway; indeed some supply cardboard gaskets to blank off the ports while it sits in there doing it's thing, so to be effective the part needs to be off the vehicle. The cleaner that we use is wonderful but leaves a residue that is like glue and needs other chemicals to clean it off afterwards!

This is why I suggest that if you strongly suspect that the throttle body is defective, and you have to go to all the trouble (and it's a lot of trouble even though Fiat state that it's only a half hour job!) of removing it; you really may as well replace it.

 

Nick

[spospe]

Thanks Nick, you may have saved me some future grief !

[colin]

euroserv - 2013-07-12 5:24 PM

and you have to go to all the trouble (and it's a lot of trouble even though Fiat state that it's only a half hour job!) of removing it; you really may as well replace it.

 

Nick

 

I didn't want to read that :-S :D

 

It's a bit of a bus mans holiday for me fixing the van, spent a day and half at work this week stripping down a supercharger to find what was locking it, have a lot better things I could be doing on my days off than fixing a two year old van.

I'll have to see what they quote me for labour.

[DJP]

I had a similar experience with our old X250 3.ltr. An EGR valve was diagnosed as the problem but at close on £500 to supply and fit on what a best guess assumption of what the problem was, I did not bother and visited another garage (non Fiat) they said it could be throttle body, but only a guess.

A short time later I noticed the engine battery appeared to be performing at a poor level. A further check revealed the alternator was on its way out. So with a poorly running engine, various diagnosis on a best guess basis and now a duff alternator, I had the alternator replaced (under warranty), low and behold with the new alternator the other problems disappeared!

 

[Guest peter]

JudgeMental - 2013-06-24 11:46 AM

 

BGD - 2013-06-24 11:42 AM

 

Sorry to hear that, but ain't it just the wonder of technical progress.

 

Thank heavens there's no EGR valve to go wrong on the much simpler earlier Ducato engines.

 

You mean the ones that sound and drive like a tractor? 8-)

Yep that's the one. But hey, Bruce likes it, as he continually tells us. (lol) (lol)

[Guest peter]

My wife had the same problem on her diesel Vauxhall corsa. Drove me mad for ages, until I changed the M.A.P sensor in the manifold. It's been perfect ever since. It was covered in oily crud. It was dead easy to change as it is only held in place with one screw. I think it cost about £17.00 off fleabay. Well worth considering owing to the ease and cost. The fault used to shut down the turbo and go into limp home mode. I used to have to take it out for a right good thrashing in third gear at 70>80 mph. That worked for a while until it got crudded up again. It's been fine for over a year now. I think that the corsa engine is also a Fiat. I did strip out the E.G.R valve as the original suspect, (pain in the butt to get at) but it was spotless and the solenoid worked fine.