CC versus C&CC

[Roy]

I often hear people asking which is the better of the two main clubs. We were members of both at one time but we dropped the C&CC in favour of the (now anti motor caravan) CC, mainly because we thought their CL network was better. Now we wonder. It seems to me that a lot of the 'original' CL's are closing down because they don't want to update (we don't want them to!). If you notice in CC updates, new CL's are providing toilets and showers as well as electric hook-up and charging camp site prices to suit. This is not what we want, but it seems to me that the CC are almost making this a requirement to get them fill;ed up with tuggers. They would be better encouraging the original CL's to remain open as 'motor caravan aires' as I have suggested before. We have a toilet and shower on board and we can manage nicely without hook-up. Anyway, what I would like to know is how does the C&CC fare in compariison these days? Perhaps those of you who are members of the C&CC could give an opinion. Maybe they are the club to join but again we would be mostly interested in the CS's and would be interested to know if they are going the same way as CL's. I wonder if a mass exodus from the CC would give them a shake up? What do you think? Roy.

[mom]

Roy,

I can't comment on C&CC CSs as I have never used them, but like you I am growing very annoyed at the CC CLs becoming mini CC Sites.  All my wife and I want is a big field with no signs, no modern distractions and enough room between us and our neighbours to feel both together and apart.  We don't want electricity, hot showers or a toilet. 

Are the good times over?

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]mom - 2006-07-31 5:52 PM

Roy,

I can't comment on C&CC CSs as I have never used them, but like you I am growing very annoyed at the CC CLs becoming mini CC Sites.  All my wife and I want is a big field with no signs, no modern distractions and enough room between us and our neighbours to feel both together and apart.  We don't want electricity, hot showers or a toilet. 

Are the good times over?

[/QUOTE]

But surely it doesn't matter if these other things are available, provided you aren't asked to pay for them if you don't want them. 

Toilets and showers are more difficult to treat in this way, but the Clubs' policy on paying for the electrical hook up whether or not you use it, on the pretext that it is "illegal" to sell on electricity, is iniquitous.

However, I don't think the "good times are over"- yet, its just that a growing proportion of (what are we, campers?) want the facilities and if site owners don't provide them they loose too much trade.  A recent Prime Minister used to call this market forces.  It's not an elegant term, and not a particularly elegant outcome, but I guess it will just carry on spreading nevertheless!

[Frank]

[QUOTE]Roy - 2006-07-31 5:45 PM Perhaps those of you who are members of the C&CC could give an opinion. Roy.[/QUOTE] My limited experience of using both CL's and CS's is that there appears to be a mixture in each of the clubs with offerings along the lines of the 'older' ones that you describe and those with more facilities. I still feel that there are plenty about that offer good value for money such as a CL I recently stayed at on the N Yorks moors which was a working farm with really good toilette and shower facilities which cost £6.00 per night with electricity. If you didn’t want the electricity it was a pound or two cheaper. I don’t think you can beat that for the price and so well situated for walking. Regards Frank

[david lloyd]

Roy I agree with you and would love to see the CC and C&CC fill the void by developing their small 5 van sites as 'aires'. We have been with the CC for a number of years and didn't join C&CC after a not so pleasant response from one site warden when we called in to see if they had a pitch available - we left without doing as we intended and joining. However, the attitude of the CC is getting worse toward motorhomes and some of the CL owners are being pressured to toe the line. We recently wanted to stay at a CL right in the middle of Pickering (North Yorks) just behind the North Yorks Moors Railway station. The chap had a CL site and also held rallies every so often for the North Yorks branch of the CC in an adjacent field. He was told by CC head office to cease holding the rallies (even though they were for CC members!) as the CL users were being affected when they were on. Instead, he changed to the C&CC as a CS and still holds the North Yorks CC rallies!! I am still a bit unsure about changing to C&CC though so, for the time being, we will continue to seek out suitable CL's. Regards, david

[spartan3956]

I used a basic CC CL until the CC decided to get tough with the farmer regarding the chemical elsan dump. Which i thought basic but functional Guess what, we lost another good site. I only want a place to park i dont want showers toilets electric. Ive got all those things on board thats why i bought a motorhome. Its hard enough for these people to lay pipes for water into fields without having rules that make it harder for the owner to make a bit of pocket money. Pete

[JohnP]

Out of the twelve new CL's advertised in this months CC magazine ten are advertising electric points. Its a pity but some of these may not see a return on their considerable investment. Yes David the CC is trying to cut down rallying on premises which have a CL on site. They stipulate that you should not use the same entrance, ground, water and elsan points because it upsets the CL users. I don't see how the CC can dictate to a land owner what he/she does with their own property. n the magazine some months you will see more CL's closing than new ones opening. Is this dictatorial attitude contributing to these closures? If it is, it's working against the interests of the members.

[colin]

I would not join C&CC again, but I do use CSs. Next van will have onboard facilities so I will be able to use more CSs.

[Guest starspirit]

You can't blame the CC for concentrating of the needs of tuggers as that is after all their prime function. However you can fault their sheer bloody minded arrogance in enforcing a 'one size fits all' policy when clearly one size does not fit all. You can also fault their attitude to Motor Caravans in general as being short sighted and typically arrogant but as everyone knows the CC is NEVER wrong and even when it is it isn't in it's own eyes. So I left when they lied to me about the law and compulsory elecricity charges. The CCC is not quite so bad but it's CSs are also becoming more upmarket for the primary needs of tenters and tuggers. However the CCC does have lots of cheap holiday sites and weekend meets all over the place where one can usually just turn up without booking and just stay one night if that is all one wants.

[Guest starspirit]

Perhaps it's just me but I do find the CC sites book and directions far easier to use than the CCC book when it comes to finding a CL or CS. On the other hand whilst driving in ever decreasing circles down leafy lanes one often finds a super little overnight spot to hide away in, so it ain't all bad news - unless your loo is full and your water tank empty in which case you are in deep doo dah.

[Clive]

We joined the C&CC club several years back by default. At the time the RAC who had previously covered our long old and heavy DIY motorhome changed their rules. BUT if we joined the C&CC then we could get RAC Arrival which would cover us. Plus there is a discount on the RAC fee which equated roughly to the C&CC annual membership. So we did In 9 years we have used one C&CC site and one CC site. We don,t book anything other than ferries. We find that Club sites provide far too many facilities that we just do not want, but have to pay for. i.e. all we want is a safe pitch, water and somewhere to empty the loo. Hookup sometimes maybe but not mandatory. But these Clubs seem hell bent on raising the standards to a point where we feel positively like lower mortals. Who the heck wants to take a dinner jacket or a posh evening dress when camping. I like being relaxed and un-organised when on holiday. (The wife calls me scruffy) But at the end of the day money will win and to justify the continually increasing fees the clubs will keep adding more "attractions". But worse of all is the thought of what the C&CC will do with the New Forest camp sites now they are to run them and others. Vive le wild camping. Brothers to the revolution. Where is that aire?

[mom]

[QUOTE]Brian Kirby - 2006-07-31 6:37 PM

But surely it doesn't matter if these other things are available, provided you aren't asked to pay for them if you don't want them. 

[/QUOTE]

I think that's sort'a what I'm saying.  I want to be camped in a field, and am willing to pay a few pounds for safety and surroundings, but with every added unwanted facility I have to pay increasing amounts of money, directly or indirectly.  Some CLs are now up to £9, one step short of Sites.  I know I can choose cheaper CLs, and that's what I do, but it is the trend that disappoints me.  I really do feel that the future years will see CLs turn into expensive mini-sites, with those CLs that I currently love disappearing, and unless the campaign for aires is stronger than the CC's campaign against, then true wild camping is the only option for people like me. 

Having said that, what does happen to ex-CLs?  Presumably the landowner still has that empty land that needs a use?  I am a regular user of France Passion.  After the 27 euro joining fee, all stays are free on France Passion sites throught the country, with the subtle hope that you will buy the evening's produce from the adjacent farm shop or winery.  Interestingly, the landowners also have to pay for the priviledge of allowing you to stay!  The "Passion" is not ours for France, but theirs for their own country.  Often when we stay at a CL in the UK, we buy a half dozen eggs and show interest in any other produce on offer.  Seriously, would "Britain Passion" fly?  If it was like France Passion, the sites would only cater for self-contained motorhomes, often offering nothing more than a safe field or car park for only 2 - 3 vans, advice on the local area and optionally some produce of some kind.  There are no bookings, and only one night's stay allowed, and there is an etiquette that must be followed.  Would any variations on this theme work in the UK? 

[Roy]

There was an effort recently to get a 'British Passion' off the ground but it died a death due, I believe, to a lack of interest by land owners Roy

[david lloyd]

There certainly does seem to be a growing proportion of motorhome users against sites (in particular the two main clubs and their increasingly commercial attitude) and wanting more aire type stopovers. Without wishing to repeat all that has gone before in prev ious threads please go to the one titled First Municipal Aire posted on 4 July to see if you would like to support at least one proposal to get an aire established in this country. There are others also and a search on 'aire' should bring them up. Sorry, I would have posted the direct links to these threads but I haven't got the hang of that yet!! Regards, david

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]Roy - 2006-08-01 9:43 AM There was an effort recently to get a 'British Passion' off the ground but it died a death due, I believe, to a lack of interest by land owners Roy[/QUOTE] Roy, That was not the reason "British Pashion" never got off the ground, I'll explain all at Malvern 8-) Don

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]mom - 2006-08-01 7:08 AM ...............Having said that, what does happen to ex-CLs?  Presumably the landowner still has that empty land that needs a use?  ....................If it was like France Passion, the sites would only cater for self-contained motorhomes, often offering nothing more than a safe field or car park for only 2 - 3 vans, advice on the local area and optionally some produce of some kind.  There are no bookings, and only one night's stay allowed, and there is an etiquette that must be followed.  Would any variations on this theme work in the UK? [/QUOTE]

I think the landowner may run up against planning restrictions.  I seem to remember that the two clubs had some hand in administering the maximum 5 van sites that can be opened without applying for formal planning approval. 

Can't remember the details (although I'm sure someone will, maybe Derek?) but I think the clubs may have won some dispensation that meant that, provided the CLs and CSs were operated within club guidelines, they didn't need any further licensing.

I therefore wonder if, when the CL or CS closes or loses its designation, it has to remain shut until the owner applies for permission in his/her own right.

However, I still think much of this argument is "cart before horse".  I don't think the clubs exert pressure on owners of CLs and CSs to inprove their offerings, I think the owners of the minimal facilities sites just see lower and lower trade while those who provide enhanced facilities (generally) see their trade increase.  This, I think, persuades those with the minimal facilities they must close, or upgrade.  In the latter case, unless they are in an already popular area, they will fail for lack of trade irrespective.  Either way, the number continuing to offer minimal facilities declines.

It's a hard world out there.  No more than 5 vans at any one time, no guaranty of 100% usage, folk like us who dream of being the only camper present, and all for under £9 (it seems) per pitch per night.  You do the sums, and then decide whether you'd incur the cost of developing a 5 pitch site!  I'm sure I wouldn't.

Now, pubs and supermarkets, that's a different story.  They've got something else to sell so stand to make more than just the pitch fee. 

So, here's and idea.  Why don't we approach all the brewers and pub oparators to get them authorise/legalise overnight parking on their pub car parks.  Eat, drink and be merry, and then spend the night in your own accommodation free from any notion of driving over the limit.  Paradise?  Who needs aires when you've got Pubovers?

[docted]

Are the clubs anti- motorcaravans? I think not they are both prepared to take our money in return for providing their facilities. What the clubs are is they are not clubs but commercial organisations who make the most of their money selling camp site pitches to the public. They are anti anything which intereferes with their trading such as "aires". You don't see any letters in their magazines from members who do not use their sites but instead free camp in a tent or motorcaravan because they do not want this concept of freedom being more widespread and them losing business as a result. This does not make them anti-motorcaravn or tent just commercial operations protecting their share of the market. The provision of additional facilities on "CLs" and "CSs" such as showers and electricity is railed against by tuggers as much as ourselves as is the inclusion of charges for electricity whether needed or not on club sites. Docted

[enrico]

Brian Pubovers,what a good idea.Are you volunteering to approach the breweries/companies or pubs direct seeing as you`ve come up with the idea? Good luck to you and I sincerely trust you`ll get a LOT of assistance (!) (!) (!)

[Guest starspirit]

I will add my support to the 'Pubover' principal even though I am a non drinking anti smoking and rather unsocial creature. However even I need to eat and with more and more Pubs becoming non smoking I would be happy to buy a meal for two in exchange for an overnight parking. I'm not sure how to go about approaching Pub owners or tenants or breweries but no doubt someone out there must have worked in this trade and will have some idea of how to make a start? Perhaps a new thread for 'Pubovers' is justified - I think I'll start one.

[Roy]

There is a draw back to the idea of pubs and supermarkets using their car parks for overnighting - planning permission! OK maybe such businesses would be willing to allow the odd overnight, I think a landowner can so do for a limited amount of nights/vans a year, but I doubt if they would be willing to apply for planning permission to make it official. This is where the Clubs and the Local Authority come into the picture. The clubs can licence selected places for 5 vans only, as they do, and indeed many pubs do have CL/CS's. By the same token, the clubs should be able to authorise 5 van aires (being another name for CL/CS). An idea would be that such supermarkets/pubs would apply to the CC or C&CC to have an area of their car parks certified. I remember hearing about an American idea where Walmart was willing? to try such an idea but it didn't seem to materialise. The biggest drawback is "will anybody listen?" Lets just go to France and Germany et al. Keep trying, Roy.

[chas]

One of the main reasons I have stayed a member of the CCC for over 34yrs is that they accept all types of units and to my way of thinking this gives a true meaning of camping, just like abroad, also the CCC offers every 2yrs one of the best U.K site books available this coupled with very good site fees for the over 55 s in the low and middle season. Also you do not have to have EHU if you do not want it, unless thats the only pitches left. I must admit though that the trend is to improve and add more features to sites, which of course not everybody wants to pay for, but then you still have the option to find a quiet hideaway site shown in the sites book. One thing about full facility sites in the colder winter months is they offer generaly hardstands and if you have ever turned up to a CL site to a sea of mud or soft ground, I for one would not want to face the possibilty of getting bogged down. chas

[Roy]

Hi Chas, Interesting information. I wonder if the C&CC turn their noses up when one wants to stay for just one night? Roy.

[chas]

Hi Roy , I have never encountered that, if there is room then you get a pitch , I have even booked online with them for one night at Folkstone for a ferry the next morning, no probs.

[Brian Kirby]

Roy

Well, yes, but except possibly for Belgium, I still reckon we've got the best beer!

[RonB]

Chas - We tried to book a one night pitch at the Folkstone CCC site in June when going abroad and were told that a 'Two Night Minimum' policy applied. Given its situation near the ferry port we were suprised at this and concluded that everyone sailing was paying for two nights but only using one, and in consequence depriving others of a spare pitch. Do they have a consistant policy, or what? Perhaps it is a seasonal thing. Incidentlly, we ended up overnighting on the Calais port parking area which has now been escurity upgraded and proved ideal. We used to do this regularly in the days before the 'immigration' troubles as it has a lot of advantages. You can cross over late evening, or the middle of the night if you like, and avoid the heavy traffic periods - start out fresh the next morning whilst gaining at least three hours on a similar start time from a UK site - and its free.