Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 July 2008 6:49 PM
Subject: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


This is a new thread concerning these matters after the original one ran out of 'server space'.
It had been running since January and had nearly 40,000 hits in that time with 800 postings. If, after viewing this update and precis, you want to review the whole sorry saga, it commenced on January 17 under the title of 'Major Fiat/Peueot/Citroen problems. I spelt the 'Peugeot' bit wrong. Bad typing mainly, I hope.

Briefly for those of you who aren't aware of the issues it appears that a significant proportion of the new X250 base vehicles manufactured at the Sevel plant in Italy and being marketed as Fiat Ducatos, Peugeot Boxers, and Citroen Relays have a defect which manifests itself in a severe juddering in the transmission when the vehicle is reversed uphill. The steeper the hill becomes, and the worse the juddering gets. Many owners have also complained about this occurring on level grass surfaces. Smoking clutches has also been another regular occurrence when the vehicle has been reversed up an incline.
The complaints data, gathered by myself and MMM magazine, also highlighted that whilst all models seem to be affected the vast majority are from owners of those models equipped with the 6 speed gearboxes. They range from medium wheel base van conversions right through to tag axle giants.
When owners have complained to the suppliers Fiat have described the juddering as a 'characteristic' of the vehicle, and then told them things like 'it is working within operating parameters' or 'as designed'.
This juddering however has caused gearbox failures (reverse gear coming into contact with the synchromesh cone on 2nd gear whilst juddering up steep hills) and many many clutch failures.
Bearing in mind that some owners will not be faced with these situatons very often the implications for long term ownership and out of warranty failures is worrying considering the extra stresses put on the drive train components by the juddering.
Several hundred owners have complained to Fiat and Peugeot (Citroen aren't really a signifcant player in the motorhome market) and both manufacturers have simply ignored these complaints.
There are rumours of an imminent fix being made available by Peugeot (who have now conceded to some owners that there is indeed a universal defect) but we shall have to wait and see which models are affected and whether these rumours turn into action.
Fiat meanwhile are still denying everything.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-07-24 6:51 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Hi Andy pleased the van ran well and hope you had a good trip. Look for ward to some reports and pictures in the future. I have now done 5000 miles in my new Fiat and it to has run without fault and sorry still no judder. Have done various weeks in UK and a five week trip to Europe, just got back from the Royal Welsh show and am off to Scotland in a week for around five weeks. Hopefully things will continue to run as they should, the judder thing has been a little quiet with you away and most postings really just 'bumps' or daft comments mainly from people who have never driven or owned a new Fiat or similar. Keep up the good work and hopefully one day something may happen.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Folk are still attempting to put posts on the long running thread, but it will will now have to be treated as defunct as they will not show up.
Please use this one instead.
If regular users can keep this one above the other until it disappears we (the Fiat/Peugeot owners would be grateful.
Many thanks.
usercolin
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


My post that got lost on other thread

There are reports of some salesmen claiming a fix, this is not so according to a local dealer
userClive
Posted: 24 July 2008 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Welcome back Andy and Marrion, Hope to see you at Malvern? Or are you still en route to Turkey, Greece or whatever?

Just use the forward gears OK!
C.

userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 July 2008 4:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Clive, nope we're back, that Wifi thing isn't all its cracked up to be if you're poor, tight, and naturally northern like us.

We await a confirmation from Peugeot that they are intending to fix the problem on 5 speed models with lower ratio reverse gear being sent out to dealers early next year, plus as an interim measure a remapping of the ECU to give a bit more torque at low revs.
However the 6 speed gearbox (which is the worst affected) is sealed unit which has to be returned to the factory for any modifications - and there are doubts (from more learned folk than I) that the reverse gear can be changed in the 6 speed box due to the internal layout - without a different casing. If so this is a serious problem for Fiat and the rest of us.
Which means (we think) that Fiat will still be very reluctant to sort existing owners out with 6 speed versions, and that until we get a definite commitment, in writing, to either extend the warranties or or fix them, the campaign to erode public confidence in this vehicle must be maintained.
usermike 202
Posted: 26 July 2008 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Andy thanks for all of your efforts. I was scared to take my van 130/6 speed/low profile out and in the end after 6 months I gave up. Although it cost more I sold to a dealer ( would not sell privately as I could not in all concience lumber someone else) and bought another coachbuilt on Ford. Will still follow the Saga and hope that it gets sorted. When talking to current/future owners I always mention this forum so that they can make an informed decision.
Regards
Mike
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 26 July 2008 8:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


Andy, as I posted on another thread, the situation has certainly convinced me not to buy on the new Sevel chassis and instead we have gone for a late ('55) previously owned fiat van conversion.

I believe that the complaints made by motorhome owners are just the tip of the iceberg and that many drivers of the commercial van variant are either not aware of the problem or are not concerned enough to report it as it is not their 'pride and joy' and life savings wrapped up into one.

Given the response by Fiat I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them wait out the current storm and then bring out the 'facelift' version in two years time with a modified drive train. Should that happen we will almost certainly look again at the X250 on our next van as there is so much else that is very good about it. However, the watchword for would be buyers of used X250 motorhomes in the future, if that should happen, will be BUYER BEWARE.

My sympathies are with you and all the other owners who are affected and I truly hope that sufficient pressure can be brought about to encourage the manufacturers to accept the problem and inst*tute a universal solution.

Best regards, David
userClive
Posted: 26 July 2008 9:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Hi again Andy & Marrion,
I am sure that all readers will appreciate your update. Thanks

Its noticebale how Renault and Ford are bit by bit taking over the motorhome business previously held by Fiat/Peugeot with durable vehicles.

We look forward to insulting you at the next show.

Best regards to you both

C&J

userAndyStothert
Posted: 27 July 2008 9:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Anyone who really wants to help put pressure on Fiat could consider the following course of action-
Go to a local motorhome dealer, tell them you're thinking of changing the van, but have heard about all these complaints of juddering in reverse, broken gearboxes and failed clutches, then note (exactly) what the salesman has to say. Get his/her name then post the response on here, naming the dealer and salesperson.
It would have to be accurate and truthful to be both legal and helpful, but may discourage the kind of lies presently being told by some dealers sales persons to potential buyers, and reward the good honest ones.
I can't stress enough the need for accuracy, but after a few it would certainly have some effect.
userClive
Posted: 27 July 2008 10:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Perhaps even better would be to have the expression of concerns and responce from the salesperson in the form of en email interchange?

i.e. show lots of interest on the first visit, get salespersons direct email address, then proffer your concerns.

Afterwards copy and paste onto the forum.
Bingo.

userlibby
Posted: 27 July 2008 11:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


A message to Rupert123

Henry,

Just because non Fiat owners make comments about the gearbox problem does not make them worthy of riddicule as you suggest above by referring to their contribution as "daft comments"

I take your wording as very being of a very unpleasant att*tude to those who whilst not being Fiat owners are trying to assist where neccessary those owners in a 'no win situation'

I'm sure most M/H owners would assist any owner regardless of the make of vehicle. Henry's view appears to be that Fiat are gods gift to the industry. No maker is that good.

There have been interesting comments about the M/H industry that can relate to any vehicle and that we should all be aware of. Fiat (at this moment in time) has a problem. It could be another make next year. Lets all be aware that problems can exist.

We all learn from designers errors that are dicussed at forum level and are therefore wiser when making our own choice of M/H. So please don't knock anyone who adds their piece, some forum contributors are extreamly knowledgeable when it comes to business and vehicle engineering.

In closing may we request what industry Henry is or was involved in so we may ascertain his belief that Fiat can do no wrong.

LB
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 28 July 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


AndyStothert - 2008-07-27 9:48 PM

Anyone who really wants to help put pressure on Fiat could consider the following course of action-
Go to a local motorhome dealer, tell them you're thinking of changing the van, but have heard about all these complaints of juddering in reverse, broken gearboxes and failed clutches, then note (exactly) what the salesman has to say. Get his/her name then post the response on here, naming the dealer and salesperson.
It would have to be accurate and truthful to be both legal and helpful, but may discourage the kind of lies presently being told by some dealers sales persons to potential buyers, and reward the good honest ones.
I can't stress enough the need for accuracy, but after a few it would certainly have some effect.


Hi Andy

I think the general idea that effective pressure would be best coming from the dealer network (as the manufacturers and converters are more likely to listen to them and act) is the way that action is more likely to be achieved - especially if they decide not to place forward orders on particular base vehicles.

In my own case I have to say that the dealers I approached did not try to pretend that the problem didn't exist but, in both cases, were attempting to minimise the problem by saying that within the total amount of vans that Fiat produce those that are affected are a tiny, tiny percentage.

My response has been that a) do drivers of commercial derivatives care or even notice that there is a problem? and, b) that this is little comfort if you are the one who does get one of the examples that is affected - and, worse, that the manufacturer (via the dealer/converter network) are doing nothing about it.

However. I shall ensure (now that I have made my decision not to buy on the chassis) that both dealerships are aware of my reasons for not buying. That way, at least, they know that the issue is directly affecting their sales.


Regards, David
userAndy T
Posted: 28 July 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
252525
Location: Chirk, Clwyd, Mooveo 608, 2007. Ducato 100.


Hi Andy,
Interested to see your post about Peugeot possibly sorting the five speed problem by changing reverse gear and remapping the ECU for more torque at lower revs. Do you know if Fiat have the same intention?
Last visit to the Fiat dealer for a "cure" for the incurable water in engine bay issue they did a "software upgrade" which seemed to increase the fuel consumption, but may have reduced the judder.
Apart from that I have to admit that my five speed is better now it has a few thousand miles on the clock and was no trouble in some fairly steep reversing situations in Brittany recently, but as a resale issue it would be good to have a "cure" registered.
Thanks again for your work on the problem.
Andy T
userzulurita
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 155
1002525


Well my 6 speed Fiat 130 multijet is still juddering!

This may be on inclines but also on flat uneven surfaces, as well as flat surfaces. I would say it judders more than it doesn't.

I have great anxieties everytime I have to reverse, especially on grass at campsites or rally fields. One day I guess it will go bang and I will be stuck!!

I wrote to Fiat UK from France as I was very unhappy with the vehicles performance whilst touring there for 3 months. Just received a standard letter to have it checked at my local dealer. That seems to be a waste of time as the dealers cannot do anything at present.

Although I love my new motorhome this issue is giving me great anxiety and stress, not what I need. so it may well be a Ford based motorhome in the near future!
userbognormike
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
25


is there an over-enthusiastic expletive filter in use? I notice two words above - "attitude" and "institute" that have had the i between the two t's starred out
userbognormike
Posted: 28 July 2008 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
25


or maybe they were posted as that
userkelly58
Posted: 28 July 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2173
20001002525
Location: South Lincs


My Peugeot is booked in at Taylors Peugeot Boston in the morning for an 8 point VOSA recall which is to include gearbox and transmission. They did the water ingress scuttle replacement not long after we bought the MH early in 2007 and has been dry eversince.

I will keep you posted with the results although mine doe's not judder much but I am a steady driver especially in reverse ,but i have not had much of an oppourtunity to reverse uphill either. Its a 2.2hdi 5 speed gross weight of 3 tons.

userrupert123
Posted: 28 July 2008 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


libby - 2008-07-27 11:53 PM

A message to Rupert123

Henry,

Just because non Fiat owners make comments about the gearbox problem does not make them worthy of riddicule as you suggest above by referring to their contribution as "daft comments"

I take your wording as very being of a very unpleasant att*tude to those who whilst not being Fiat owners are trying to assist where neccessary those owners in a 'no win situation'

I'm sure most M/H owners would assist any owner regardless of the make of vehicle. Henry's view appears to be that Fiat are gods gift to the industry. No maker is that good.

There have been interesting comments about the M/H industry that can relate to any vehicle and that we should all be aware of. Fiat (at this moment in time) has a problem. It could be another make next year. Lets all be aware that problems can exist.

We all learn from designers errors that are dicussed at forum level and are therefore wiser when making our own choice of M/H. So please don't knock anyone who adds their piece, some forum contributors are extreamly knowledgeable when it comes to business and vehicle engineering.

In closing may we request what industry Henry is or was involved in so we may ascertain his belief that Fiat can do no wrong.

LB


OK Bill, no problem. I have an engineering degree and was involved in the motor trade for over twenty years. I admit this was a while ago as since I have been in North Wales have done other things. I am now retired, well sort of, but still buy and sell cars as a part time thing when not on holiday. I keep my motor trade contacts up so do know a little about how it all works. If I give the impression Fiat can do no wrong then my fault but suggest you read my past posts before throwing accusations about. I am well aware that all have problems, I have had to deal with them in the past, but just try and put the other side. The daft comments refered to just that, not to anyone but people like that cornish bloke, although I confess do not know what he is on about most of the time. It was very noticeable that when Andy was away the subject almost died apart from the bump and daft comments bit, nearly zero new complaints. Now I have aways maintained if you have a problem the manufacturer should fix it but this campaign, while it can do no harm, is not the way. Andys latest suggestion that we should all telephone dealers and tell lies about wanting to purchase a van is completely out of order and am surprised the post has not been removed. NOW I WILL SAY IT ONE LAST TIME EVERYONE WITH A REAL PROBLEM I WISH YOU WELL AND HOPE YOU GET IT FIXED.

Edited by rupert123 2008-07-28 7:10 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 28 July 2008 7:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


I think that Andy is right, if the manufacturers/convertors, Fiat and the dealers tell lies then we need to try some crafty round a bout ways of tricking them into telling the truth. The Police call it 'interrogation technique' to eventually get "suspects" to tell the truth. Rupert - confession is good for the soul, so we will be helping all of those concerned who find it difficult to come clean.

So guys and gals make the calls, send the E-mails
userMel B
Posted: 28 July 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


rupert123 - 2008-07-28 7:08 PM

... Now I have aways maintained if you have a problem the manufacturer should fix it but this campaign, while it can do no harm, is not the way. Andys latest suggestion that we should all telephone dealers and tell lies about wanting to purchase a van is completely out of order and am surprised the post has not been removed.


It's called market research ... if there is to be any hope of getting something done, then making the dealers realise that things are not as miniscule as they seem to want it to be, is one of the options.

The dealers are claiming that the problem only affects a "tiny percentage" of vans, but what actual research have they done to check this is really the case? None. They are just taking Fiat's etc's word for it. If they bothered to do a proper check of the situation with a sensible survey sample size where the owners were asked if their van's did this, or the van's themselves were properly tested, then their claim may have some validity, but, as they have not, then it is actually meaningless. It doesn't matter if there is only 0.001% of vans affected or 10% of vans affected, they actually do not know, yet they are claiming that it is only a very small number. What they actually mean is that they 'believe' it is only a small number ... this is not the same thing.

Again, though if you are one of the people with a 'faulty' van, whether it is 0.001% or 10% doesn't matter to you, you are 100% affected!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 July 2008 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Henry,
I wasn't suggesting that people telephone dealers and tell lies - I was suggesting that folk could VISIT them and show an interest in the new stock (something we are always doing) and ask about the current juddering problems. And as you must have noticed I was insisting on the truth being told.
And as for your suggestion that there have been no new complainst since we went away perhaps you could read the editor's comments in this months MMM.
They have had over a hundred since then. Plus I had another twenty waiting on my computer.
And whilst I'm at it, your comments about MMM being small circulation show your lack of undertstanding of the motorhome market. MMM has a circulation of 40,000 plus and it's fact that it gets passed on to other motorhome enthusiasts when digested by the original buyer. Which means every issue is probably viewed by well over 100,000 committed motorcaravanners.
This is a much better strike rate than a small piece in a national, where only a very tiny percentage (see we can all play that game even if we don't know the facts) will be motorhome owners.
But I do thank you for keeping the debate going with your ill considered ideas, and as I said, despite them, know you to be a gentleman.
usercolin
Posted: 28 July 2008 9:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Well it may be that the resale value is now dropping, I've seen couple of Twins on new chassis for sale at lower price than on old chassis, gf and me have been having a few discusions about new van and dispite Twin being our favorite layout and design we may not wait for a fix but instead get Monaco/Monte Carlo and mod to suit our requirements. If Fiat will not sort this what if any other problems come to light?
Is there any moves afoot for a class action? there must be enough owners and exowners to warrent one now.
usercolin
Posted: 29 July 2008 9:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Whilst andy considers how to edit the "old" major problems for those who are unaware here is a link to it
http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10368&start=1
userrupert123
Posted: 30 July 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


AndyStothert - 2008-07-28 9:15 PM

Henry,
I wasn't suggesting that people telephone dealers and tell lies - I was suggesting that folk could VISIT them and show an interest in the new stock (something we are always doing) and ask about the current juddering problems. And as you must have noticed I was insisting on the truth being told, unlike the approach of the manufacturers.
Fiat are telling lies, some of the dealers are telling lies, so what is wrong with a little subterfuge and a dose of their own medicine?
And as for your suggestion that there have been no new complainst since we went away perhaps you could read the editor's comments in this months MMM.
They have had over a hundred since then. Plus I had another twenty waiting on my computer.
And whilst I'm at it, your comments about MMM being small circulation show your lack of undertstanding of the motorhome market. MMM has a circulation of 40,000 plus and it's fact that it gets passed on to other motorhome enthusiasts when digested by the original buyer. Which means every issue is probably viewed by well over 100,000 committed motorcaravanners.
This is a much better strike rate than a small piece in a national, where only a very tiny percentage (see we can all play that game even if we don't know the facts) will be motorhome owners.
But I do thank you for keeping the debate going with your ill considered ideas, and as I said, despite them, know you to be a gentleman.


Andy your words were 'go into dealer and say you are thinking of buying a new van' now if you are not thinking about buying one this is a lie,very small one I agree. While you were away a thread was started to try and collat problems and people were asked what their van was and what happen with the reverse vibration. Now this was a good idea from someone who appears to know what he is talking about, what happened, well almost nothing, the problem seemed to have disapeared over night. I did say my guess at the circulation of 30,000 was just that, a guess, I said I did not know but you must admit not a bad guess. I could find no reference to MMM figures so it may be one of those magazines who's circulation is not audited, however stand by my statement it is very small and a good piece in the tabloids would be better. My own feelings are not as many people know about the problems as the enthusiast on this forum would like to believe. As someone with a personal interest I have asked four other motorhome owners on campsites who had Sevel based vans if the had problems with reverse, three said no and had never heard of the debate, one had heardabout it but had not come across a steep hill he needed to reverse up so did not know if he had a problem. the problem is nowhere as widely known about as we would like. It needs to spread beyond the confines of the forum and specialised magazine fraternity.

Edited by rupert123 2008-07-30 6:29 PM
usertp002c784tp002c784tp
Posted: 30 July 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Gets involved

Posts: 297
100100252525
Location: Tyne & Wear Fiat Lunar Roadstar 620 2007 2.8tdi


Andy's point about telling a little white lie about buying a new fiat, at last years York show I asked 4 large motorhome dealers about the water ingress in the new Fiat x250 they all said they had never heard of the problem even though it had been well publicised, I was looking to buy a new van but said I would not touch the X250 because of the water problems.

Terry
userAndyStothert
Posted: 30 July 2008 10:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Henry,
I agree that widening the awarenes of this defect to a national platform would be a good thing. I've tried, but they don't seem to be interested in such an ancient well off middle class minority as us.
If you can make it happen we would be very grateful.
We did get the van magazines involved briefly, but ownership, usage and magazine buying patterns are so different that they lost interest.
I mean if you're van driver a bit of a judder or the odd duff gearbox is of no consequence. And White Van Man doesn't do a lot of uphill reversing in the short life of a fleet vehicle. We are a very different animal.
But as I said any help is welcome, so get your pen out rather than just rubbish what others are doing.
Or even suggest something the rest of us haven't thought of?

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-07-30 10:34 PM
userJohn Day
Posted: 30 July 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 25
25
Location: Wadhurst, East Sussex.2014 Hymer B678 3.0 litre


Hi Andy
Please don't be in the least put off by the doubters or moaners the vast majority of us agree with you entirely, fortunately for me you are able to put things in writing that I'm unable to get down on paper, it's in my head but never makes sense, or is to long winded when I try to write it down.

My Dethleffs Esprit I7870L, Fiat, 3.0L, 5 Ton, 6 Gear, Tag Axle (see it's got everthing to fit the problem) has got judder in reverse uphill and smokes like a chimney even going forward when trying to manoeuvre on full lock uphill, the 1300 sugested rpm only seems to make it smoke worse, and for those who are now going to say it's my driving, like Fiat have, I've driven about 1 1/2 Million miles in company vehicles and never had a clutch.

So keep it going Andy, even for those like me that are not so good at getting it down on paper.

I have written to Fiat, Dethleffs, the dealer and MMM

John
usercolin
Posted: 31 July 2008 8:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Similier to you john, my GTW would have been around 5.5t with trailer, was about to order when andy's thread came up, luckily I realised not a hope in hell of that working.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 31 July 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


For any of you who have the judders and are wondering what to do but haven't seen our info sheet just email me and I will send you one - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk

All it is is list of who whinge at to firstly protect yourself, and secondly to try and make Fiat and Peugeot sort this mess out.

userPSHORT
Posted: 1 August 2008 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


A week ago 24th July I sent a letter to Dwain Meek Customer services at Fiat.
I described how during a 600 mile round trip I found myself needing to complete a tight 3-point turn. Soon after we had to drive forwards onto Fiamma wedges to level the van. On both occasions we had a smoking clutch the smell of which hung around for a good hour afterwards. I wonder how many times we will be able to drive on to levellers with the original clutch.
I like many others have covered thousands of miles in a variety of vehicles without
having to replace a clutch(including 90k in a 1961 mini van! I have asked Mr Meek
would he accept limitations on 3-point turns in his own private vehicle. As yet no answer but as Fiat UK seem to have fled back to Italy in hiding I don't expect one.
Murvi Morello
userkelly58
Posted: 1 August 2008 1:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2173
20001002525
Location: South Lincs


My Dec 2006 Peugeot 2.2 Hdi 5 Speed unit has just had the VOSA recall work carried out by my local Peugeot Dealer.The main items were Water Ingress which was cured successfully and a cover added to the wiper motor and another mod added to the bracket under wiper motor with drain pipe ( see photo ) to stop the water dripping onto engine / steering rack removed  rebushed regreased and modified retaining bolts fitted / gearbox and diff removed new parts fitted / all underbonnet electrics sealed against moisture / downloaded new software to engine management system  all work carried out over 3 days. As we live in the " flatlands " we will have to wait until we go to north Wales next week to find some hills to reverse up to see if all is ok although I must say I had not noticed any juddering in the past .It seems Peugeot are doing their best to sort things out we had terrific heavy rain last night but everything was good and dry this morning under the bonnet.



(DSC00586.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments DSC00586.JPG (99KB - 517 downloads)
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 August 2008 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


The 5 speed versions are definitely less prone to the juddering problems and the vast majority are the 2.3 litre Fiat engined vehicles. Not that the 5 speed ones are totally immune.
The work on the differential relates to completely unrelated recall which affected a number of 5 speed models which had a badly machined diff casing and some bolts worked loose.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the juddering, so don't all start jumping up and down thinking deliverance is at hand.
If only.
And that central drain certainly isn't fitted to our Fiat.

Ours goes in (again) next week as there is now a rather strange rattling noise coming from the clutch. It could be the release bearing, but who knows.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-01 10:39 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 2 August 2008 8:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


It's probably time for an update as to the numbers of motorhome owners who are suffering from the judders, or worse, gearbox and clutch failures.
These however are just the ones we do know about.
To illustrate this, and to put these figures into perspective I notice that there is a post today on this very forum by someone suffering from the judders who certainly isn't on the list I've accumulated. So we have proably only a small percentage of the suffers recorded I think.
Plus, it seems that many have swallowed Fiat and Peugeot's assertion that it is nothingv to worry about.
Anyway, with three different sources keeping records (MMM, The Motorcaravanners Club, and me, who did a runner for 3 months) we know that there are at least 300 complaints from motorhome owners.
Despite requests to do so Fiat and Peugeot cannot supply accurate numbers of complaints, gearbox failures, or clutch failures on these vehicles.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-02 8:57 PM
useryeti
Posted: 2 August 2008 10:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.
I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.
These last groups seem to be rather silent.
I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.
usercolin
Posted: 3 August 2008 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


I've taken the liberty of copying your post from other thread, thats the trouble of having two threads running.
It's happened to me this week on a site near Great Harwood. Whilst trying to reverse onto a pitch the van gave a wonderful impersonation of a destroyer 'making smoke' Juddering was unbelievable. I left it on site for the week and when I came to move it today the clutch pedal was to the floor and the clutch was slipping severely.
It also 'thumps' on start up.
I am going to write to Auto-trail this weekend,I feel that a perfectly good conversions reputation is being jepordised by this fault.
My vehicle is an Auto-Trail Scout on the Maxi 6-speed 3l engine.
My previous motohome was a Hymer 544 on a Ducato 2.5TD which I drove for 16 years and put 90.000 on it with never a moments trouble.
The new van is 2 months old with just 300 on the clock!!!
There is a lot of anger about this issue,especially when you have just spent £60k on your dream vehicle!

useryeti
Posted: 3 August 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


I have tested my vehicle today and found that on anything above level ground it is juddering. Whilst this bears no strength in my argument I will now proceed to my next step and commission an independent engineer's report. I believe that any FIAT main agent may be on orders 'not to dig too deep'. I will also contact non motorhome users and converters of the FIAT chassis.
I have worked in the area of minbus welfare conversions and I will conduct a straw poll amongst them as to how many are using a FIAT chassis and if not why not. Also the national representative body for organisations who use the welfare conversions. I will keep you posted.
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 4 August 2008 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


yeti - 2008-08-02 10:02 PM

My new vehicle,as previously reported ,also has this problem.
I have spent a lot of money on it and I want the fault rectified. When it started juddering I had heard about giving it some more revs,this just caused it to smoke,quite severely. If it is a chassis built especially for motorhomes it is even more disturbing. Whilst I agree in dealing with the issue on an individual basis,unity is strength. I would like to see other people becoming involved such as the converters,it would certainly affect their sales.The clubs Caravan and also Camping who should be looking after its members interests rather than trying to sell them loans and credit cards and also the SMMT.
These last groups seem to be rather silent.
I will be writing to the retailer,converter and to FIAT and see what happens.


The Camping and Caravanning Club are giving an excellent opportunity to do just this in the August edition of their magazine (page 86).

The article reads:

"Has part of your camping unit failed recently?"

"Among the calls received by the Technical Department are a number concerning the failure of components in units earlier than expected. The club would like to track this to try to assess the scale of the problem.
If part of your caravan, motorhome, trailer tent, folding camper or tent has failed and is five years old or less you can help by filling in our questionnaire online at campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/unitfailures or call us on 024 7647 5282 for a paper copy."

Worth getting them involved.

David
userMeadows Engine
Posted: 4 August 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 110
100
Location: monmouthshire


Am I correct in believing that this Judder problem does not occur in the 3litre automatic, or is this just whistful thinking as its just an robotised gearbox which can therefore be affected?

Help I have one on order!!
userElliot
Posted: 4 August 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Colin: I think you have succeeded in your censorship so give it a rest now
userAndyStothert
Posted: 4 August 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Re the 3 litre automatic it appears from the limited experience yet of this version of the Ducato that it doesn't suffer from the judders.
That's the good news. The bad news is that Fiat say it can't be retro fitted.
The new auto box was delayed considerably as we all wonder if this wasn't due to some remedial work, and nobody has as yet been able to examine the box to check that is physically identical (casings etc) to the manual version. If any body has seen the technical specification (ratios etc) this may enlighten us. Then again it may not as the Italian Judderers reckon Fiat knew about the problem right from the start (just after it was too late) so published incorrect data.
They say they can prove it too. But only in court.
So back to the original question, so far none of the auto versions tested seem to judder.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-04 6:16 PM
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 4 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Today I had a 3 litre Fiat in the workshop and had to reverse it onto my new lift. As the lift is an 8 Tonne job the platform is fairly substantial resulting in a deck height of 250mm when its down. The ramps onto the deck are 900mm long giving a ramp angle of around 1:4.5. The motorhome did vibrate quite unpleasantly while going up but managed it with just 900rpm and no clutch smoking. This vehicle exhibited the worst vibration in reverse of any I've tried to date but I'd still not say it felt potentially terminal or even potentially damaging.

D.
userGoldcoaster
Posted: 5 August 2008 2:57 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Hi Andy,
I am contemplating ordering a new 3 litre Automatic (MTA) and would love
to get positive info regarding their "Judderbility."
Surely, Fiat must produce Service/Parts manuals for the 2 transmissions, and being able to view them would enable us to examine the similarity, if any, between the two.
Do you think that they would be available to private owners?
Keep up the good work.
Regards, Bill
userItexuk
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


Some info on the x250.
http://www.italiaspeed.com/new_models/2006/fiat/ducato/companion.html
userMelvin
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Unfortunately I to have a Fiat X250, to date I have aborted two holidays.
Early July, despite using 2500 to 3000 rpm could not reverse up a slope to my pitch at Ilam Park, late July, I just could not reverse onto my grass pitch on the top field at Trewethett Farm.

We are now afraid to reverse due to parts falling of the motorhome, in the worst case the electric connections shook out of the charger.

Fortunately I am experiencing NO Problems reversing up these slopes on my lightweight mobility scooter.

My dealer has returned my motorhome to Fiat on two seperate occasions, they could find nothing wrong. However with persistance (contacting trading standards and asking for my money back) my dealer has aquired new entusiasm, and contacted Fiat Proffesional.

I have now had my motorhome examine by a Fiat Commercial garage, on a very slight gradient they noticed severe transmission vibration, and noted the clutch was slipping in reverse.They are supplying me a copy of the written report to be forwarded to Fiat. My dealer is now chasing Fiat.

If I can offer any advice:
(a) stick your heels in,
(b) contact trading standards,
(c) ask Fiat motorhome owners on site if they have familiar experiences,
(d) advise anyone who will lsten to you fo your problems,
(e) eventually Fiat and the dealers will be hurts by loss of sales,
(f) give your coachbuilder in my case Autotrail some grief,

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 5 August 2008 12:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Melvin

It would help if you could quote the name and whereabouts of the Fiat Commercial garage who were so helpful and have offered you a copy of their report to Fiat.  I think there may be others who would value that kind of response.

userMeadows Engine
Posted: 5 August 2008 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 110
100
Location: monmouthshire


Thanks for the reply to my post,was the 3ltr davenewell(4 Aug)drove up his ramps manual or automatic?
The Italiaspeed site says the 6 speed boxes used on the 2.3 &3.0 are "differentiated on the basis of levels of engine torgue" and goes on to say that TWO new manual 6spd boxes have been developed, the 2.3 having a 2 axle gear box whilst the 3.0 has a 3 axel gear box with multicone type synchronisers on all speeds (excl 5th & 6th) but including reverse. Would this help it?
Fiat make a big deal out of their gearbox designed for motorhomes, does a converted high top panel van just have a standard commercial box.

userDave Newell
Posted: 5 August 2008 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3580
20001000500252525
Location: Telford, Shropshire


Can't comment on the makeup or ratios of any of the gearboxes but the one I drove the yesterday was manual. The automatic (ASM) box is by all accounts immune to the judder/vibration.

D.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Dave,
This unpleasant juddering you experienced - how do you think it would affect things on a gradient twice or three times as steep for nearly half a mile?
The thing is that whilst this isn't a common occurrence this is the situation we found ourselves in on a single track public road with no weight restrictions (etc) when we met a small lorry towing a trailer coming up the other way which couldn't obvisouly reverse back down again. Result - one broken gearbox.
A month ago, in Croatia we were forced to abort a ferry crossing because they wanted us to drive onto the ferry and then reverse off on the other side up a steep ramp - this is how motorcaravanning is with a Fiat Ducato - you have to consider every possible reversing situation in advance, and this isn't easy talking to a Croatian seaman who obviously thinks you are bonkers when you tell him that a new vehicle can't revsere up steep hills.
Then there's the wet grass in Spain. These things do not like wet grass.

Five weeks ago we went to campsite where the pitches were on terraces overlooking the sea (very nice too) but had to decline staying there because the terraces involved driving up and down a series of steep ramps about 100 yards long - so half would be reversing up and out.
So we had to leave this idyllic situation because the van will not reverse up a steep slope without either smoking the clutch or knackering the gearbox.
Now I don't want to fall out with a mate, but your workshop ramp is hardly a true test.


Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-05 8:27 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Oh I forgot to add that all this garbage about special gearboxes for motorhomes is just that - our small panel van conversion is just the same and has the same 6 speed three shaft box as all the others.
And of course the same destructive juddering.

This also rules out all the talk (from Peugeot) about only big heavy motorhomes being affected as ours is a very lightweight van conversion.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 5 August 2008 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Andy, I don't want to fall out with anyone, least of all a mate, but I've been trying very hard to ascertain what might be the cause of this judder/vibration. I've driven around 20 or so of these vehicles and none of them have exhibited what I would call a truly horrendous judder/vibration. Without first hand experience of the fault it is very difficult to come up with any reasonable explanation as to the cause. I have repeatedly said that it might well be that my test hill is not steep enough and I have asked if anyone with a badly juddering unit would be prepared to let me try it and experience it first hand, to date NO ONE has come forward!

I'm more than happy to try and help with this but without first hand experience of it its bloody difficult to come up with any reasonable cause and therefore solution.

You originally said that a hill of 1 in 5 would produce the problem, I've tried it on a steep ramp, albeit only 900mm long, but it still gets pretty close to your specified gradient, I've also tried almost every one of the 'vans I've driven on a steepish ramp near my workshop, often with the owner sitting alongside and not once have I managed to generate anything more serious than an irritating vibration and I certainly haven't managed to smoke a clutch!

I'm sorry if you don't find my postings helpful but they are factual and honest.

D.
userfred grant
Posted: 5 August 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


so what do we call you now dave my biddy?

factual dave, or

honest john?
userClive
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


I guess that the pile of mail in the Jago postbox should indicate that its a tad more than a figment of Andy,s imagination. (See MMM latest article on the subject)

userdavenewell@home
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


Nobody is suggesting its a figment of anyones imagination Clive. All I'm trying to say is I've yet to experience it and until I do I can't put together any sensible suggestions of what might be the cause and thereby the remedy. Various people have made wild guesses as to the cause ranging from engine mountings (my own initial suspect) to dual mass flywheels and gear ratios. Me, I prefer to work with facts not assumptions and facts start with experiencing the fault.

By the way, at least one person has said they smoked their clutch trying to get onto levelling ramps, my ramp is steeper and longer than any levelling ramps I've ever seen yet it produced nothing more than an unpleasant vibration.

D.

Edited by davenewell@home 2008-08-05 10:24 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 August 2008 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Dave,
God bless you for replying. Gives me another chance to re-utter the destructive juddering chant.

Gravity being what it is when you only have a maximum of half the vehicle on the slope the mass is less than half of that when the whole weight is on the slope. And with a single workshop ramp this is excatly what happens. When the rear then gets on the level part the overhang actually relieves some of the load on the front.
I know you were genuinely trying to get a handle of this mess but I think the time for disscussing causes is probably well past now, with hundreds of complaints to Fiat, and what we should really be devoting our collective thoughts to is coming up with ideas to ensure Fiat (et al) find the solution for those affected rather than just a quietly instigated fix for production vehicles at some time in the future.
Incidentally today has brought another clutch failure to light and two more six speed gearboxes Fiat will have to replace.
You can experience the judder on level ground (grass) at Malvern - but only if our van manages to keep running until then. And after another visit to Fiat today there are some doubts.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-05 10:56 PM
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 6 August 2008 6:47 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate .

D.
usersteamer
Posted: 6 August 2008 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



I today booked our swift into the fiat dealer in swansea for a handbrake that has issues , talking to them about the juddering situation their comments were that not all vehicles were affected , however they said that if we were to experience any problems theywould investigate willingly .
I have said that in putting the vehicle onto levelling ramps recently i did experience some clutch smell , at the time i put that down to newness as i have with the brakes smelling but we will see .
userMelvin
Posted: 6 August 2008 3:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Hi

I cant believe how arrogrant Fiat proffesional are. On the Monday I had my motorhome inspected, the workshop manager confirmed the transmission vibration, but also noted the clutch was now begin to slip on a very slight gradient. He is personnally discussed with Fiat, but his hands are tied.

I just phoned Fiat this afternoon they told me they sent a letter out yesterday (tuesday) with their basic fob off letter, cant find anything wrong etc.

Funny that, this morning (wednesday) the workshop manager phoned and asked my mileage 1600, and would would email Fiat with his report.

I just phoned back the workshop manager, he told me that is typical of Fiat. He also informed me ( off the record ) Fiat have no intention of resoving the problem.

Melvin Biggle
userMelvin
Posted: 6 August 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


The Fiat Commercial dealer phoned this morning to tell me Fiat have warned them off, under no circumstances are they to supply me with a copy, and I will be recieving the standard letter from Fiat.

Unfortunately I hope to get a report from the RAC and Mercedes

userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 August 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Does anyone know what 'hold' Fiat have over the dealers?
Is it just that they will remove the franchise if they step out of line?
I say this because whilst our dealer has been (like Melvin's) helpful and told me all the same things off the record, they will not, under any circumstances, give me the written proof that Fiat have been told that our vehicle is defective.
And unfortunately the Freedom of Information Act doesn't cover private companies such as Fiat, so their internal lies will remain private.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 6 August 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


davenewell@home - 2008-08-06 6:47 AM OK Andy, see you at Malvern mate . D.

There's a few good 'ills around Malvern, Dave, if you and Andy are feeling brave!  I dare you, and can we all watch please?

userMrs Sea
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 81
252525


Just had my Adria Twin back form Fiat. They have carried out a service and 3 recall fixes which are:- 1) remove boot on steering rack, grease and replace boot
2) replace started motor fuse
3)coat injector with anti-corrosion coating (2 coats).
Seems Peugeot are doing rather more.

I asked why they hadn't dealt with the real problem of water pouring onto the engine from the windscreen and scuttle, surely an anticorrosion coating is hardly going to solve this. He said that he could order me the 'Supplementary Kit' which is an engine cover to deflect the water. It also comes with a sealant to put behind the scuttle.

I said why wasn't this done the first time and he said it wasn't part of the Fiat recall, just an extra if requested by owner. It doesn't cost me anything to fit it apparently but I had to ask for it! They don't fit these to commercial Fiat Ducatos though, only motorhomes......?! I'll let you know if they do a decent job of fixing it.

Finally we discussed the juddering problem mentioned on this forum. So far my Twin has been fine but it is the 2.2 5 gear model. He said he had dealt with several of the 3l models reportedly with a judder in reverse. He stressed the Fiat line about needing 2000 revs and not trying to do it at idling speed. He personnally had reversed these vans up their steep ramp which leads from the underground basement to the salesroom above without any difficulty.
userTracker
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I don't know for sure but I would have guessed that reversing the undriven rear wheels onto a garage ramp with the driven front wheels on a firm level floor was not comparing like for like in reversing the whole van up a similar gradient in real life when all four wheels will be on the incline with distractions like maybe a loose surface, other road users or a bend to contend with?

I like the new Ducato but I sure as hell ain't gonna buy one until a guaranteed free to me fix is established and proven - so I'm not holding my breath!

Edited by Tracker 2008-08-06 7:56 PM
userfred grant
Posted: 6 August 2008 7:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


and remember, reversing up too fast could give you the bends aswell my biddy.

deepseadiverfred
userMelvin
Posted: 7 August 2008 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


May I suguest we all send a email to David Cameron, it will be a good oppertuntity to show us what he is made of.

camerond@parliment.uk
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 7 August 2008 10:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


5000500050001000100100100100252525
Location: Herefordshire - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Surely that e-mail address is wrong?
userMelvin
Posted: 7 August 2008 11:15 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


It from his site
userparkmoy
Posted: 7 August 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: 2001 Compass Navigator 360e on a VW 2.5 TDi


It from his site


It would be if you'd spelled parliAment correctly
userAndyStothert
Posted: 7 August 2008 2:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


After an 8000 mile tour of Europe when the van performed well enough I took it into the local Fiat dealers on Tuesday for them to listen to a strange rattling noise from the gearbox which had gradually been making itself heard whilst we were away.
The dealers have decided that it requires yet another replacement gearbox, and I'm beginning to wonder where all this will end.
What are we to do with this van?
Even if Fiat do come up with a fix for the juddering what else is going to drop to bits?
Will we be able to sell it? Ever?

userElliot
Posted: 7 August 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Andy: Surely this is the time to say enough is enough. Let them replace the gearbox tell them you do not wish to have a judder of any shape or form. Then have your own engineer to inspect it before you accept it back and demand a certificate of no judder “for want of better terminology” for now or ever into the future. It will be on their premises unless you are 100% happy you are entitled not to accept it back. You never know it may work


Best of Luck


Edited by Elliot 2008-08-07 3:50 PM
userfred grant
Posted: 7 August 2008 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


denzils garage is workin on a way to mate the old gearbox to the new engine. if successfull he says he will market it thro mmm, he does. but he will need a good supply of old stile gearboxes, me ansums, so if there any donors out there get in touch with den at trevithick garage. container loads would be quite welcome if this cums off my biddies.

f
usermike 202
Posted: 8 August 2008 1:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Andy if you can find the cash and you PX if for a Ford/Merc etc base vehicle to a dealer who says that there is no such thing as a judder then you should get top Dollar and no excuses about depreciation because of judder etc.
I did the same myself. I could not in all honesty sell privately. So if the "no problem exists" dealers get stuck with unsaleable stock then its their fault for not being honest or helping the cause in the first place.

I still follow the thread with interest and inform as many fellow enthusiasts of the content of the thread and my own experiences.

Good Luck
Mike
userAndyStothert
Posted: 8 August 2008 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Unfortunately (or fortunately) we really like our custom built camper, and if we were to p/x it for a stock item we would then have something we don't want.
So, what we'd have to do then is commission another custom built camper like the one we've got (but not on a Fiat or Peugeot - which is the only one which accommodates the layout, and is the only reason we ordered one) and, where was I? Oh yes, p/xing for a stock item, ordering another custom built one (12 months waiting time) then selling the stock item when the new custom built camper was ready. Have you all followed that? I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
If only Fiat could have built it without a howling great cock-up which should never have got through the testing procedures they say they have in place.
AND if I flog it some other poor sod will end up with it, and that isn't a very sociable thing to do to someone.
Every day Fiat and Peugeot continue to produce yet more of these defective vehicles - knowing the consequences - and it seesm there's nowt we can do about it except attempt to stop folk buying them.

IT APPEARS THAT FOLK ARE STILL POSTING ON THE ORIGINAL THREAD, WHICH IS A WASTE OF TIME AS ANY NEW POSTS WILL NOT SHOW ON THE FORUM.
And Colin - don't stop just because you've been misunderstood.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-08 5:23 PM
userJeffus
Posted: 8 August 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


Hi guys and gals,

Trying my third post, can't seem to make 'em stick. I have just joined your forums having heard of you on other forums.

I have been in touch with Andy S and am following this thread with interest/dread. I take delivery of a new Bessacarr E795 (160 multijet) on the 1st September. Dealer says I can have a test drive before acceptance but don't say what's gonna happen if I refuse to accept and do I get my deposit back?

I'll let you know how I get on. Hope it's not a judderer.

Jeffus.

Edit, just read the warning in caps at the bottom of Andy's last post. So THAT'S why my previous posts didn't stick. I'm new to this forum, I didn't know the old thread was defunct, sorry.

Edited by Jeffus 2008-08-08 5:40 PM
usergowerdog
Posted: 8 August 2008 11:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 1



If this has been pasted previously I apologise
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VOLUNTARY RECALL SYSTEM Recall campaigns are launched and monitored as agreed in the various voluntary Codes of Practice formulated from discussions between the Department for Transport and representative bodies of the Motor Industry. These codes set out the guidelines on procedures for the recall of vehicles and components that have safety related defects, due to a feature of design or construction, and which are liable to cause significant risk of injury to the driver, occupants of the vehicle or other road users.

The first code was introduced in 1979, (a link to this code is at the top of the page) and applies to all motor vehicles sold in Great Britain. A further six codes have been introduced since 1982, (details of which can be obtained direct from Vehicle Safety Branch) and cover the following:

Trailers under 3500kg GVW
Commercial Trailers 3500kg and over
Tyres, Wheels and Valves
Motorcycles
Parts and Accessories
Pedal Cycles.
It is the responsibility of the manufacturer to inform VOSA when substantial evidence of a safety defect that requires remedial action, has been confirmed. Additionally, evidence may be presented to the manufacturer by VOSA as a result of investigations into accidents, and safety defects which have been brought to their attention from other sources.
usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 149
10025
Location: Cheshire


Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time.
Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email.
I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that!
I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles.

I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present.

As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them.

Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.
userSparky7
Posted: 9 August 2008 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 75
252525


Following a test drive I have recently refused to accept a judderer and am now in the process of trying to get my £1000.00 deposit back - no luck so far!
userMel B
Posted: 9 August 2008 2:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


Sparky7

If you haven't already, contact Trading Standards and get them involved. If the company are trying to fob you off with goods that are not 'fit for purpose' then you should have a case to get a full refund of your money back ... did you by any chance pay by credit card??
userkelly58
Posted: 9 August 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2173
20001002525
Location: South Lincs


colin weston - 2008-08-09 1:55 PM Hi Andy, I thought I ought to give an update having been away for some time. Contacting Peugeot Customer Care about the letter I sent them in in May this year regarding water ingress and judder I was told that they never received it despite it being sent to their new address! Strange isn't it? They soon got a copy by email. I was then assured that my vehicle would appear to be operating within their expectations for this type of vehicle. Can you believe that! I then queried whether Peugeot's expectations for it's range of cars is different from those of the commercial vehicles. I have responded to the Camping & Caravan Club survey and also seperately emailed Barry Norris. I got an encouraging email from him. I'll say no more than that at present. As you know, Jenni Reagan is no longer connected with Watchdog which goes on air again this Autumn. I will send another email to them but if they are to take up our complaints it needs everyone with the problem to contact them. Finally, if we get nowhere with all the publicity we are currently getting and hope to get in the future I would be willing to help finance legal proceedings as a last resort. However, like you I had various modifications made to my van during build and I don't want to get rid of it! What I want is a solution to the juddering problem.

Have you received the VOSA recall notice regarding your Peugeot I had mine back in May and eventually had the work done on 29/30/31 of July  ( see my earlier post ) and because of the delay in getting booked in at the Peugeot dealer I have received 3 letters from VOSA regarding the recall.

usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 149
10025
Location: Cheshire


kelly58
Yes I had the recall for checking the steering rack, upgrading a fuse and reprogramming the ECU. They also fitted an engine cover as a 'goodwill gesture'. I didn't get a collector like yours. I already had a cover fitted to the wiper motor but I moaned so much to the dealer about not having one on the starter motor that he fitted one even though he said he had no authority to do so. It appears that they are now charging for engine covers.
What I was complaining to Peugeot about was that there was no solution to stopping water ingress between the windscreen and the scuttle panel. Despite having tried to seal this joint I finally resorted to taping the joint which at least keeps the water out. I noticed recently when checking my engine oil level that the engine cover isn't fitted correctly. It is attached to two threaded studs at the rear but the two forward grommet mounts on the underside of the cover do not align with what appear to be 'grease nipple' like mounts on the top of the engine. Anyone else got this problem?
usercolin weston
Posted: 9 August 2008 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 149
10025
Location: Cheshire


I have just sent an email to Watchdog who will be starting their programme in November. You can find them on the BBC website, just Google 'watchdog bbc'. They are inviting people to get in contact with them so the more of us who contact them now the better. Their email is watchdog@bbc.co.uk but make sure you give your name and address and contact tel number. I have advised them about articles in MMM and the Caravan Club magazine.
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 9 August 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Surrey


Many thanks Andy you have saved me close to £40000 today as Mrs was taken by the new R40,but as it has the groupe gear box for Fiat/Peugot/Citroen, I have decided its too much of a gamble. Any ideas for a really sound long lasting base vehicle in the MWB range.
Regards Shepherd
usersteamer
Posted: 10 August 2008 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Yesterday i had a chance meeting with an old friend who has a mobile heavy plant fitting/service business , he is driving a 57 platelong wheelbase panel van fiat 160 with 6 speed box , naturally i quizzed him on it - his comments were " just eats hills , normally fully loaded at 3.5 ton ( plus some most of the time ! ) ", regularly has a trailer behind pushing it up to the 5 ton mark & with 15 k on the clock has had NO issues with clutch/g/box etc !.
when he asked my reason & i told him he just looked blank at me , he hadn't heard of any problems , all his comments were that it has its rattles & sqeaks & overall was better than the competition & considering the stick he gives it he's more than happy .
So i went & compared tyres - his 215/70/16 , ours 225/70/16 , i'm a little confused as to where the problem stems from , have we just got a batch of faulty flywheels floating about , is it the fact that there is some imbalance between cab & alko chassis or even as someone on here suspected faulty engine mountings - seen that before .
Ours as previously said is going back tomorrow to sort a faulty handbrake & i will try & sqeeze some info from them .

Steamer
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Surrey


Dear ALL
I have just spoken to our dealer who tells me that because the R40 is based on the Citroen Dispatch it is not affected by the group problems, is he right.
Any help appreciated. Shepherd
userBasil
Posted: 10 August 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
2000500


If you are talking of the Romahome R40 they are indeed on a different chassis to those affected by this problem.
Go ahead and enjoy!

Bas
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Surrey


Thank you Basil you have made one lady very happy, as for me !!
Regards Shepherd
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 August 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I tested a Citroen Dispatch for MMM a few months ago and it reversed up Honister Pass (1 in 5) without so much as a flutter, never mind a judder.
For those eejits who say driver technique may have some bearing on the juddering they should perhaps consider the fact that it is only the Ducato which is a problem. Have we ever had this kind of issue recently with any other vehicle?

userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


Dear Swift motorhomers
Guess the engineered problems are widespread and as such apply to all the Ducato X250's. looks like we are either going to accept the design faults or do something through the Law Courts.However having just paid our kids inheritence on our purchases do we want to outlay any more cash in persuing the judder issue? Suppose if we could get a petition running on the gov website, might be zero cost option.

Few questions spring to mind though, does anyone know how Peugot are engineering this judder out? Sure I read somewhere they have acknowledged the judder feature.
Why have no motoring organisations picked up on this issue, surely there must be some kind of quango set up for this, we have them for everything else in our lives, come on Gordon.

Does anyone know what the actual fix for the scuttle is? If you read my comments below, you will note my Unit has supposedly been rectified, should I have an engine cover and some form of drainage for the water pooling at each side of the scuttle?
___
My 2008 Swift 580PR 100 Multijet 2.2 supplied with the standard features listed below.

Engine:
Clutch judder supplied as standard with all fiat Ducato’s had smoking clutch in France while trying to reverse on to the levelling ramps. Always drive forward on to the ramp now. Fiat dealer says they have not heard of any reports of the judder issue reported the clutch as fine. Given conflicting advice, either increase the engine revs to avoid the shudder, decrease engine revs to prevent clutch slip.

Scuttle water ingress to the engine bay as standard water feature. Fiat main dealer has cleaned the engine and applied some kind of white stuff to various areas within the engine bay. Still have water reservoirs each side of the scuttle, the wiper spindle sits in a constant pool of water. Probably handy in case you find yourself running out of water maybe in a desert, could be a life saver.

Seals around the hatches poor, they have all turned black and gooey already .Makes the vehicle look much older than a 2008.

Is this off topic sorry if it is;

Big glob of mastic sealant on the roof about 2 inch diameter. Hope it’s not covering something up.

Bed collapsed on every occasion whilst in france for 9 weeks. Wife had to make modification using washing platted washing line down both sides of pull out bed lats. Bed lats splinters entered seat cushion.
New lats fitted at dealers , bed faults corrected by the dealer.

Gaslow system fitted at dealers . filler point installed at head height, makes difficult to hold the heavy filling gun at this height. Also blows gas back in to your face when you release the filling nozzle.

Now I have to say what a fantastic unit the X250 is apart from the obvious above.
It looks great
Performs brilliantly forward
Fantastic economy 35-40 mpg
Extremely comfortable
Easy to drive
Quiet operation
great all round views
Rear view mirrors give excellent vision. (has anybody had to replace one yet) French nutter Builder collided with my offside mirror. Made small hole in the casing, about £300 to replace. so if you ever see a 2008 Swift 580PR with red masking tape in the shape of the red cross , you'll know it's us.

Anyway thanks in anticipation for listing this in the Forum

userSparky7
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 75
252525


Yes I did contact Trading Standards but they didn't really give me any advice - just told me what to do to seek redress in the small claims court; which I already know. Trouble is, if I do that and can't prove "unfit for purpose", which is difficult as I don't actually have the vehicle (thank goodness), the dealer can counterclaim for their expenses, which would include the fact that it was a special order, and they had already obtained various other items that I wanted fitted to it. I've written to them politely twice, and although they answered the first letter, to say they were having the vehicle checked out (by Fiat haha), they haven't yet answered my second letter. Life is too short to pursue cowboys through the courts, especially if I cannot be sure I'd win.
userTHE SHEPHERD
Posted: 10 August 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Surrey


I feel better about the R40 now as I have driven sheep up Honister so If it copes with that it will do. Many thanks to all who gave advice and help. The Shepherd
userniton
Posted: 10 August 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Liking what I've found

Posts: 46
25
Location: Nuneaton


We, my wife and I, ordrered a new Pilote P690FGR on the Fiat Ducato 3 Litre 160 multijet at the NEC show last October and took delivery from the Midlands Main Importer and Dealer in March this year. Up to now we have only done around 1500 miles in this country and are very pleased with it although it does not fell right when it is reversed as even on the flat there is a slight judder. One should not have to increase the revs to reverse a vehicle. Usually you set the revs for the circumstances you find yourself in.

We are off to France in September and having read about Andy's problems with his secong gearbox we are a little aprehensive. This should not be the case having spent over £40K on our Motorhome. As we have as yet not experienced any significant judder we cannot complain to Fiat.

Fiat appear to turning out the Ducato as usual and manufactures are selling them and advertising them as if nothing is wrong. I looked at the Pilote 2009 brochure today online and the majority of the models are now on the Fiat Ducato with only a few in the top of the range on the Mercedes.

It leaves me puzzled as to what is going on. Are they not having the judder problem on the continent?

We will be away in France for 9 weeks so will give our 'van a good testing. I only hope I don't return with rattles in the gearbox. The uncertainty on how our van will perform is a worry that we didn't expect when we ordered it last October.

If Fiat do solve the problem how will we know when they started to fit them to new 'vans? They will not tell us, will they.
I am not sure how this problem can ever be resolved.
Regards,
Peter.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 August 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Re the last post there are several things which spring to mind - firstly the that the juddering seems much more sporadic (but extreme) on the 3 litre models.
Some do it, some don't, whereas the 120 and 130 models are much more consistently bad.
The 100 models, which have lower overall gearing, tend to be (with a few notable exceptions) not nearly so badly afflicted.
Will Fiat tell us when the have a fix in place in the factory? Not a hope in hell, but Fiat have employees who have defective motorhomes in Italy and information has been seeping out.

And yes, they are doing it all over Europe - there are similar discussions going on in Italy (where legal action as a group is very likely now), France and Germany that we know about.



Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-10 7:51 PM
userTracker
Posted: 10 August 2008 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


It was mentioned on another thread that remapping of the ecu helped alleviate the problem on some Transits which use the same engine, and presumably, the same transmission and engine mounts?

If a reputable engine tuner, chipper or remapper can be found who would be happy to experiment with different torque and power settings maybe an improvement could be found that might at least be enough to prevent gearbox destruction and/or clutch burn out?

If such an expert could be found he might just find that he has a lot of potential customers forming an orderly queue at his door?

If it failed, then you would at least know what it isn't.

Does one of you with an afflicted van have the time and inclination to enquire I wonder.

Just a thought - grasping at straws maybe- but still a thought?
userAndyStothert
Posted: 11 August 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


The Transit transmission and clutch is a completely different unit - I'm told that nothing is common besides the basic engine lump. And not as much of that as may be imagined.
We are still waiting for confirmation that Peugeot will be starting to fit a lower ratio reverse gear to the 5 speed versions within the next few weeks.
If they actually do this then Fiat will eventually have to do the same on their 5 speed equipped motorcaravans.
Which will leave the majority still without a solution.
usersteamer
Posted: 12 August 2008 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



hi all,

my swift went to fiat dealer yesterday for brakes etc , we also chucked in the judder for good measure ! , yes i can make it judder if i want to but in saying that when we came home i reversed it some 40 yards up our yard in one go to its spot with no problems .anyway - dealers comments -
judder- charatistics of the vehicle !!, suprise , i was told how to set revs etc etc - when i explained that i am an engineer by trade & would not be taken in by jargon ( to put it mildly ) he somewhat stepped down a peg or two . sensible discussion ensured & he did tell me that they have had no problems with the standard panel vans , something i heard first hand last weekend .His opinion was that there was an imbalance somewhere in the conversion which was putting a strain on engine / power train in some instances
we both agreed that in a normal panel van the weight is kept mostly on the floor & in a smaller footprint as compared to a motorhome whic makes the best of all availble space & also the panel van is a vehicle built before power train fitted .Having previous experience of vehicle body building i would be questioning the chassis to cab connections as this will only act as a hinge . i'm sorry this doesn't answer andy's problem , perhaps as he says he has been unfortunate to have one of a faulty component batch .
I questioned the clutch smell when putting onto ramps to be told that the clutch was ok but if it failed by component breakage i.e spring letting go etc it would be covered but not from burning caused by slipping/riding clutch .I denoted from that comment that the clutch arrangement fitted was to small to cope with application , after all panel vans are generally up to 3.5 tons whereas our vans are 4.25 tons all the time again coming back to the imbalance situation .
I'm not taking any sides here just looking for the problem without getting embroiled in the politics .

steamer
userRayjsj
Posted: 12 August 2008 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


The point is, Andy's IS a panel van conversion, and it looks like i'ts going to have to have two gearboxes under warranty, if it was faulty components i'm sure they would have been changed as a matter of course during the replacement ?? I still think the 'use high revs and slip the clutch' instruction is a recipe for many burnt-out clutches which are NOT covered by warranty. At the very least reduced clutch life. which would be passed on to some unsuspecting 2nd owner.
Some of the money spent on 2 page adverts promoting the new Sevel chassis should be used in treating THEIR existing customers Fairly. AND solving the problem.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 August 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


There is good news today - from Peugeot.

They have stated categorically that they will be taking steps to cure the juddering on all the Peugeot models affected.
The first step will be to re-map the ECU and then if that doesn't cure the problem they will change reverse gear for one of a lower ratio.
The gear ratio change will be avialable from some time in December (ish) but the ECU changes are due to start as soon as can be arranged.
All production vehicles from January 09 onwards will be fitted with a lower ratio reverse gear.
Only those who complain will get anything done, so if you have a Peugeot and haven't yet made an official complaint then get to it - if only for the sake of whoever may buy the van in years to come.
Hopefully Fiat will follow suit, but their behaviour so far doesn't suggest that they will do it honourably or willingly.
userItexuk
Posted: 12 August 2008 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


Have booked my Fiat x250 in for a service next week and been told there is 5 recalls to be done. They said one of them is a re- map of the ECU to try and stop judder.

Edited by Itexuk 2008-08-12 6:45 PM
userBob Elswood
Posted: 12 August 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


10025


Thought about upgrading my camper van maybe next year.

( I have a Peugeot Boxer 2.00 Ltr HDI base)

After reading about all the problems with the new models I won't touch them with a barge pole!!

Guess it will be a Mercedes Sprinter in future or anything other than Peugeot or Fiat!!
userniton
Posted: 12 August 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Liking what I've found

Posts: 46
25
Location: Nuneaton


I have had the ECU upgrade carried out to my Motorhome, (Pilote P690FG on a Fiat 3L 160 multijet) and the only difference I noticed was an increase in fuel consumption.
Peter.
userPSHORT
Posted: 13 August 2008 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


Aside from the juddering problem(has the recall work cured it??!!) how did you check your mpg? Has anyone compared mpg results from the onboard computer and working it out manually. I have twice and to my figures the computer is optimistic by a worrying amount 20mpg/29mpg. Perhaps this should be a new thread. I will repeat on our next trip in a couple of weeks.
This on a 3l 160 is certainly no better (maybe worse) than my old 2.8l. Both panel van conversions.
userMelvin
Posted: 13 August 2008 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


It would appear we are now begining to make an affect. My dealer has told me, they now check their motorhomes in reverse. I wonder why?

As regard revising the reverse gear ratio, due to the credit crunch and the adverse publicity. There is a very large stockpile of unconverted powertrains at both Fiat and the coachbuiders, it will some time after Jan 09 before we see the revision.

userAndyStothert
Posted: 13 August 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Peugeot's decision to come clean is a bit late but at least they have put owners minds at rest as to the long term future of their motorhomes.
Even if they do, in a very roundabout manner, admit that they are still being produced in defective state.
With stockpiles as they are at both the manufacturers and converters the first of the modified new vehicles converted will probably not appear until April next year, so it seesm safe to say that buying one until then there will be a good chance of getting a duffer.

At least if you buy a Peugeot they will sort it out, but as things stand, with Fiat still denying a fault exists, buying a Fiat based motorhome new until at least April would be a very risky investment.
usercolin
Posted: 13 August 2008 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Copied from RandM's thread

Yes we have the judder. The van has recently been for a service as it is 12 months old. The Fiat servicing manager put the following on the invoice "Judder in reverse. Road tested & found to be the normal shudder in reverse, common to this model, at this moment in time there is no way we can improve it.
It is an Adria Twin 120 3.3 tn. so that we have only one further year of vehicle warranty.(MMM Motorhome Matters Aug) The above may well be of some value and it was obtained thanks to MMM editorials which are very much appreciated.
I was recently told by an engineer with many years experience of Fiat vans that with this new model the ratio of the reverse gear has been increased. With the experience Ferrari and Maserati etc. to call on you would think that Fiat would do better, but this might be exactly what has happened. Peugot have also similar sources and evidently they all find their way to Sevel.
You would expect errors to be sorted out with new versions, but think about water drainage under the windscreen. We had this several years ago with a coachbuilt Pilote (but not with a subsequent Pilote A class. Well you wouldn't would you).
So where does this leave us. I can't believe that only 300 people are involved. I would have thought 3000 would be nearer the mark. The cost of replacing the judder (with a new one) I am told is about £500 and evidently the reason for Fiat's reluctance to do anything. Only two have been changed locally I understand one of which was the result of a young chap getting into the family motorhome and getting it stuck in grass. He had then revved and revved digging a larger and larger hole.
It is good to see on this Forum that there may be a move by Peugot.
So how can Fiat be encouraged to cure the problem for us. MMM are doing a first class job but they must obviously keep within tactful limits which they most certainly do.
A lawyer is not likely to want to handle claims for £500 but Fiat might take notice if there were 3000 or so and legal expenses of £1000 per time were to be expected. A lawyer might well gain a lot from an advertisement in MMM with a variety of cases coming from motorhomers. A half page might do readers and the lawyer a lot of good.
It has been mentioned that we should expect to receive something suitable for the purpose for the not inconsiderable sums expended. This is so but only applies between buyer and seller, i.e. motorhome owner and their vendor (dealer). The chain from here to Fiat is through the converter and each dealer would have to be sufficiently interested to persue the matter and the same with the converter. Direct action with Fiat is what is needed I would hope that a way can be found.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 August 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Hmmmm!  I wonder if Fiat will have a stand at the NEC?  I also wonder whether the judderers united might be persuaded to all turn up together and, in the way of these things, I just wonder some more if national and local TV were told there might be a bit of fun, and were suitably briefed beforehand, and offered a juddering demonstration, whether they might arrive and film it all and ask if Fiat had any comment?  Just wondering, that's all! 
useryeti
Posted: 14 August 2008 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


Brian I believ there are rumblings about a represenation to FIAT if they are at the NEC. What would lose it if there were some hot heads in that group,out to cause trouble.
The situation with the Transit has given me some thoughts. Was this engine originally designed for rear wheel drive. I remember a bus producer building a front wheel drive vehicle using a Land Rover engine and within 6 months of use the transmission failed,I don't know if they had juddering.
The firm was Omni.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 14 August 2008 3:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


5000500050001000100100100100252525
Location: Herefordshire - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Yeti:

The 2.0litre motor fitted to Year 2000-2006 Transits was intended for FWD models only and is quite different to the the 2.4litre powerplant fitted to RWD Transits. Year 2006-onwards FWD Transits have a 2.2litre engine that's essentially an increased-capacity version of the 2.0litre. A variant of the 2.2litre motor is also fitted to the lower-powered models in the current Boxer/Ducato/Relay ranges.

Not sure what you mean by "the situation with the Transit". Are you under the impression that the juddering characteristic also afflicts Transit? Because that's not the case.

Mk 6 and Mk 7 Transits (FWD and RWD) have been generally criticised for being stall-prone when moving off and (in Brian Kirby's FWD Hobby's case) for having an all-or-nothing accelerator response. I think it has been suggested on this forum that ECU re-mapping might improve matters, and I believe there have been Ford-dealer remaps carried out on RWD vehicles as part of the Transit's normal development process during the last 8 years, but I'm pretty sure there's been no Ford-approved remapping of FWD Transits.

I doubt if ECU remapping would do much good anyway, as my own feeling is that (on Transit FWDs) the tendency to stall and the lack of accelerator sensitivity are largely due respectively to the high 1st gear and the crappy accelerator design.
useryeti
Posted: 16 August 2008 9:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


Derek
I was prompted to consider this due to the fact that the engine fitted to my 3litre Fiat is the same as that used by Ford. In fact they are produced in a factory in Milan and also badged out as Iveco units.
userTracker
Posted: 16 August 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I see from page 37 of this month's MMM that the DJ Johnnie Walker has bought a new Fiat based Autotrail Cheyenne from Chelston Motorhomes.

It is pointless talking to Chelston because they very much play down the reversing issue but maybe a high profile figure like a Radio two DJ might be a good guy to have on board for the fight?

userMel B
Posted: 16 August 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


But someone needs to tell Johnnie Walker that he might have a problem in reverse ... anyone know how best to get a message through to him????
userPSHORT
Posted: 16 August 2008 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


Re Johnnie Walker I have sent an e-mail to his Radio 2 e-mail suggesting he checks out this website
useryeti
Posted: 16 August 2008 11:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


I also sent an email to Johnnie a few weeks ago,apart from you I wonder who else.
I also wrote to Watchdog.
userPSHORT
Posted: 17 August 2008 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.
In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!
userTracker
Posted: 17 August 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


PSHORT - 2008-08-17 8:49 AM

I thought he(Johnnie W) had in fact bought his M/Home some time ago, one wonders did he get your e-mail, if so before or after he purchased, he is mechanically so-minded I believe so one would think he is aware of the problems.
In my e-mail yesterday I forgot to mention water leaks only the juddering so if anyone further sends to him perhaps add just 'a dash of water' to the JOHNNIE WALKER!


I did exactly that last night and also referred him to both Andy and to Rachel Stothert at Warners as well as the MMM and OAL websites.

Whether the BBC will allow these emails through is another matter though and we could do with a more direct method of approach.

Edited by Tracker 2008-08-17 10:45 AM
usercolin
Posted: 17 August 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


I emailed him back in may about it, proboly thought I was some kind of nutcase, wonder if he's had any judder since, keep your eye out for any new member called johnny or dj
userTracker
Posted: 18 August 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Over the last 20 years I have had a number of Sevel based vans starting with a Talbot Express in 1986 and ending with a Ducato 2.3 jtd now.

They have all WITHOUT EXCEPTION given me good, reliable, dependable service and all have done exactly what it says on the tin.

I have no doubt that once Fiat get this latest van sorted it will do the same.

Shame the same cannot be said of Fiat, Peugeot or Citroen dealers who are best avoided once out of warranty.
userMelvin
Posted: 18 August 2008 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


I just returned from my motorhome agent aftercare (nightmare), amongst other problems, I vocally raised the question about my transmissin judder in a very busy recption.

All of a sudden they became intrestest in my complaint. They asked if Justin had been in contact with me, you all know the answer to that question.

In addition to the standard letters you have all recieved from Fiat, I have letter from trading standards in regards the motorhome dealer and the Fiat garage which inspected the motorhome. ' It seems that they are unable to find the cause for the SHUDDERING and therefore, unable to assist in a remedy'.

Trading standards, ' however the traders are not willing to negotiate because of the PRESS RELEASE issued.
userMelvin
Posted: 18 August 2008 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


I just would kike to add, whilst at my dealer today, they let slip another case on their books, a new Fiat X250 Autorail Scout.

Andy I think the new owners will be contacting you in the very near future.
userColinC
Posted: 19 August 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 27
25
Location: 2007 Rapido 9048df


Last week Andy Stothert posted on both this forum and MHF a message to the effect that Peugeot accepted that that they need to make changes to the ECU and reverse gear to resolve the reversing judder. I raised the question on MHF as to whether, bearing in mind that some (all?) of the engines installed by Peugeot were different from the Fiat units, the same or different gearboxes were installed by Peugeot and Fiat. I asked if anyone had this information. Interestingly there has been no response. Does anyone on this forum know? If the gearboxes are indeed the same (including the same ratios for reverse gear) then the hopes for a fix from Fiat might be higher than if the gearboxes/ratios are different?

Colin
usercolin
Posted: 19 August 2008 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


The Pug fix is for 5 speed box, have you got that or 6 speed?
userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


Colin has answered saying the fix is for the 5 peugeot speed box. Does this mean we may be closer to a resolution?
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


The simple answer (and I've been busy finding out during the last few months) about the question of shared parts between the Peugeot Boxer and Fiat Ducato is that the only difference is that Fiat use the Iveco 2.3 litre engine as the mid range powerplant whilst Peugeot use a 'chipped' version of the 2.2 litre engine which powers the 100 series vehicles with both badges.
The 'chipped' version is attached to the same 6 speed box which Fiat use with the 2.3 litre engine. The 5 speed box is usesd by both on the 100 series, and the 6 speed box is also used in both Peugeot and Fiat 160 ranges.
All (as far as we know) the damaged gearboxes and clutches have occurred on the 130 and 160 series with 6 speed boxes. Personally I haven't driven a single 6 speed variant that doesn't have the destructive judder, but have sampled a coudp of 5 speed ones that arent nearly as bad.
After speaking to the Peugeot people a few weeks ago and them saying that the lower reverse gear ratio would be fitted to all vehicles, a later conversation with Ian Sedgewick (the PR manager) seemed to contradict this slightly in that he said the 6 speed box is the one subject to the lower ratio reverse gear, and I understood him to mean that the 5 speed versions will only get the ECU re-map - and then see what happens.
They said that they will confirm this ASAP.
Meanwhile on Planet Fiat, where they build all these vehicles, they are still keeping quiet and hoping that it will all go away without them having to fix our vans.
Another much more disturbing fact to emerge from the Italian Judderers is that they say there are literally thousands of motorhome specific vehicle stockpiled at the Sevel plant, and that every day the stockpiles get bigger. If the gearbox mods are introduced into the production line in January (a big IF) it may be as long as JULY before any of these find their way to a motorhome production line, and consequently NEXT OCTOBER before a modified non judderer (and gearbox/clutch eater) is available as a motorhome.

So if you're thinking of buying one, and the salesman tells you it is all sorted out walk away - he's fibbing.
userdavenewell@home
Posted: 19 August 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3257
200010001001002525
Location: Shropshire. Motorhome= 1996 home converted Iveco


yesterday I drove a Peugeot variant with the 6 speed box and it was by far the worst vibrater I've encountered to date! It only juddered/vibrated when slipping the clutch, once it was fully engaged it was OK although a bit whiney. I advised the owners to report it to Peugeot along with the water ingress issues that have not been dealt with on his one week old van . Gut feeling, now that I've experienced a bad 'un is that reverse gear is indeed too high and therefore requires a more than fair amount of clutch slip for a controlled take off, especially on hills! The clutch was also very sharp, certainly more so than the rest I've driven.

D.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 20 August 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Oh come on Dave, don't be so modest. You must have encountered much worse vibrators in your long and illustrious time in the top shelf magazine trade.

At least the Peugeot owner has the prospect of a cure to hold onto - unlike all the Fiat owners.
On the subject of good uns and bad uns ours (gearbox number 3, but orginal sharp clutch) is quite a modest judderer, but is taken to places where life does mean reversing up hills, and obviously can't stand the conditions.
Nowhere on the Fiat packaging did it say 'Can't reverse up steep hills without damaging the gearbox'.
What's now worrying me is that if Fiat don't fix them when the warranty runs out this vehicle will be a liablilty.
I'd have thought the dealers would have been kicking up a real fuss with Fiat right now as the future doesn't look good for these vans. But no, they use the defect to get them cheap, then deny there is one when they sell them. Best of both worlds.
For the October NEC Show we have a lovely idea forming to cause absolute havoc for those selling Fiat motorhomes, and the beauty of it is that it is legal, effective and won't even get volunteers thrown out.
If you want to turn up and help let me know.
It will cost about a fiver each for essential equipment.
usercolin
Posted: 20 August 2008 2:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


I'm sure there must be some decent salemen out there somewhere, BUT, most I've dealt with appear to be people that are rejected by the motor trade for being too dodgy.
Andy whats the latest on which gearbox Peugeot intead to modify 5 or 6 speed?
Re the stockpiled vans, the next thing will be to find out chassis number when Fiat (hopefully) mod van and how to spot differance between an 'old' box and new one, but I'm proboly getting to far in advance on this one
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 August 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Oh Dear, it really is going to be a minefield buying a second hand Sevel based Motorhome or panel van conversion. Even a 'new' one for the next two years or so,until the present stock of chassis are cleared from stock.
Any,Any other base vehicle but don't even think of a 'Sevel' it's just too much of a gamble. Come on Fiat, the 'ball' is in your court.
userItexuk
Posted: 21 August 2008 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


Just had 12 month service and 5 recalls done, one which was a re map of the ECU. My August 2007 Ducato 130 X250 did vibrate a small amount in reverse but not enough to worry me. Pleased to report that after the re map things have improved 100% and now little or no vibration in reverse.
usermick&ann
Posted: 21 August 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 17

Location: Bedfordshire


Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.
userItexuk
Posted: 21 August 2008 1:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


mick&ann - 2008-08-21 11:08 AM

Hi Do you mind telling us what 5 recalls you had done.


I think they were:
Re pack grease on steering arm
Replace a fuse. Not sure what on.
Re map on ECU to help stop judder in reverse
Seal scuttle to stop water ingress
Spray 2 coats of silicone on and around injectors to stop rust.
userAllanF
Posted: 21 August 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 1



Hello Everyone
Just about to pick up my first new motorhome, an Autotrail Chieftain SE with a Fiat 160 engine tied to a Fiat Automatic 6 speed gearbox, has anybody had judder problems with the Auto box. Any advise welcome.
Thanks
usercatinou
Posted: 21 August 2008 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


It's been confirmed! We definitely have "the judder"

We have just had our first service on our 3 litre Fiat Ducato and having registered a possible judder problem in May, the Fiat dealer has confirmed we have "it". They have confirmed this to Fiat, quoting our Fiat reference from May and say that we are now "in the system" for a future recall.

Apparently, as long as it has been inspected and registered within the warranty period that should safeguard us, even when "out of warranty".

We will now see how long it takes ................
userfred grant
Posted: 21 August 2008 7:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


u is dealing with fiat, not mercedes, catinou my biddy. best of luck.

f
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 August 2008 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .
Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.
Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.
The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.
Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.
So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.
So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.
userItexuk
Posted: 22 August 2008 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


AndyStothert - 2008-08-22 5:19 PM

I do hope all you other sufferers haven't let Fiat fob you off with all sorts of bull. .
Ensure you have an official case number for your complaint is the first thing. Don't let the dealers tell you a recall is on the way - it isn't - Fiat have not yet admitted there is a fault and don't want to because of the cost of stripping every gearbox and replacing the reverse gear.
Fiat also say that there is no recall for an ECU change to alleviate the juddering because there is no fault so why should they alter the ECU.
The post that says the judder is minimal probably hasn't tried it on a decent gradient.
Ours doesn't judder at all on the flat and next week it receives its third gearbox because of this defect.
So OK we drive in hilly places, and he may not, but what of the next unsuspecting owner? He/she may expect it to be able to reverse up a hill and break the box in the process.
So come on get off y'r inept bums and get whinging to Fiat. Everyone.


Andy, All I can say is that when I booked my Ducato 130 in for it 12 month service I was told there was 5 recall to be done. One of them was a re map of the ECU, when I collected it I was told it had been done.
My judder IS minimal, ( Have reported it to my dealer) I must have a goodish one and YES I do drive it up hills. I live on a very steep private road and have to reverse it 50 metres to get it in my drive at least once a week.
If you want to check re ECU re map give Foray Motor Group a new Fiat dealer in Bridgwater Somerset a ring on 01278 727910 Mr Dave Vowles
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 August 2008 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Thanks for that - I'll ring them on Tuesday.
It may be that Fiat ARE going to attempt to get rid of as many complaints as possible with a remap of the ECU but are unwilling to 'cough' to the fact in public.
But so far they are still refusing to talk about the juddering as a defect.
I'll let you know what everybody says - if Fiat will discuss it.
userColinC
Posted: 22 August 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 27
25
Location: 2007 Rapido 9048df


Hi Andy
Thanks for the clarification re my request about the differences if any between Fiat and Peugeot gearboxes.

Hi Itexuk
There was a recall number 5247 (Fiat call them campaigns!) dating from last year which involved a modification to the ECU. This was one of 5 'recalls' done on my 'van (2.3 litre/130) during October and December last year. The ECU mod was actually done before we took delivery of the van so I don't know if the judder is better or worse ; it is certainly there now.
It would be interesting to know if your ECU remap was indeed number 5247 ; and if not what number is it, when did Fiat introduce it, and which engines(s) does it apply to? Something for Andy to have in mind also when it talks to your garage.

Colin
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I've been asked by another poor soul who is conducting the still ongoing water ingress battle with Fiat to ask you all to sign a web petition which is to be found on
http://www.petition.co.uk/water ingress to engine re fiat peugeot

Any bad publicity for Fiat is good publicity at the moment so go and 'sign' it.
userClive
Posted: 23 August 2008 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Peculiar Andy,
The petition web site says :-
"Petition does not exist"

Does this mean its never been created or that it has been withdrawn?

C.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Clive,
I've put the address in which I got, but perhaps there should be no gaps between the last few words - the Fiat and Peugeot bits.
You know how fearful and unskilled I am with all this web stuff. Well everything invented since my clockwork Meccano bits really. And the old Fiat 500 in the garage.
userfred grant
Posted: 23 August 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


your fiat 500 would be in the garage wouldn't it andy my biddy. gearbox problems perchance?

us do think you aught to rethink the maker of your personal transport me ansum.

ritesedfred
userrowley
Posted: 23 August 2008 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 102
100
Location: Chesterfield


I think that this might be it-- http://www.petition.co.uk/water_ingress_to_engine_re_fiat__peugeot

I understand that it was to close today.
There was over 270 signatures yesterday.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 August 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Fred,
We've had that Fiat 500 for years and it's still as good as the day it was built in 1972. It's never had a new clutch, has a 'crash' box which has been totally reliable, it will reverse up a mountain side, and is worth ten times what we paid for it all those years ago. Oh and it does 60 to the gallon.

But of course, what with forty years of automotive prgress to improve things, our new Fiat Ducato is much much better. Well it should have been, however I suspect it won't still be with us in four years never mind nearly forty.
And I use a bike as personal transport. One of those with rod brakes and an oil bath chain.
And.....how come no matter how many doses of drivel I put on here my score stays at 219?

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-23 9:05 PM
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 24 August 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


5000500050001000100100100100252525
Location: Herefordshire - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Andy:

Your 'score' is a total linked to your Profile and it's incremented by one each time you post to any of the O&ALive forums. But the revised total is not applied just to your most recent posting, it's applied to ALL your past postings as well. It's not indicating "This posting is Andy Stothert's 219th", it's indicating that Andy Stothert has (across all the O&ALive forums on this website) posted 219 times.

If your next posting is a reply to this one, you'll notice that your score will then clock up by one to 220 and so will the score on all your earlier postings.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 August 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Derek, thanks for that. I'm sure I'll develop the necessary deductive powers to understand it one day. So it should now read 220 right the way through?

Meanwhile if there is anybody out there with a new a new X250 Boxer or Ducato based motorthome with a judder in the transmission system whilst releasing the clutch in reverse and you haven't complained officially to Fiat or Peugeot please do so.
Also there is an information sheet available for sufferers to read and which spells out how to ensure Fiat have recorded your concerns and offers a few suggestions about how to go about making Fiat find asolution for the destructive juddering in the transmission.
Just email me for a copy - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
As most of you will know Fiat are still denying a fault exists whilst Peugeot have admitted that it does, and will be taking steps to rectify the Peugeot Boxers by early next year.
Quite how two identical gearboxes in (almost) identical vans coming off the same production line can be different is beyond everybody except Fiat.
If you have a Peugeot Boxer X250 contact customer care and ask that your vehicle is given both the ECU re-map and the new lower ratio reverse gear. They won't come looking for you if you haven't got an official complaint in progress.
If you buy a new Ducato or Boxer based motorhome before September or October NEXT YEAR there is a good chance that it will have this destructive juddering in the transmission.
Ours goes in for its third gearbox on Tuesday.
userfred grant
Posted: 24 August 2008 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


we'll all keep our fingers crossed for you andrew darling. if the operations successful fred is goin to celebrate with sum good old cornish cider, harvestin or no harvestin he says.

alice
userAndyStothert
Posted: 25 August 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Most of you are probably aware that I'm attempting to keep this matter in motorhomers minds by way of a thread on both this and the motorhomefacts forum.
It is strange how different the two forums tend to run, but what we did know all along is that the motorhome manufacturers have been watching the other one more closely, and that we had a harder time getting universal support there than here.
However when the facts became apparent (that the defect is a universal one) the other forum has become just as supportive as this.
Whether it is the threat of more radical action, or a genuine desire to try to sort this out, I can't judge, but Swift have told me that they will be having another and very earnest conversation with Fiat next week in a bid to resolve this fiasco.
Whether Peugeot's welcome admission of the design defect and their desire to resolve things is a factor we know not, but is should be as it tells us that all the motorhome manufacturers are building on a vehicle which has a recognised defect.
A very scary place to be in legal terms, and the dealers should now be even more aware of this issue as it is them who are the ones ultimately responsible.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-08-25 4:47 PM
userspud
Posted: 26 August 2008 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lives on the forums

Posts: 535
50025
Location: Swift Lifestyle 530LP near dragonland.


hi guys,

I've been reading this thread with interest. just bought (picking it up 12th. September) second hand 2006 Fiat Swift Lifestyle 530lp with 2.0 litre engine, from Highbridge caravans. Is the 'judder' or water ingress likely to cause me concern?

Admittedly, didn't reverse uphill during test drive, but having come acrosss this thread, i'd like to know of any problems I may encounter before I part with the balance of the money.

Thanks for ny replies.
userTracker
Posted: 26 August 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


It seems that the judder and water issues only affect the newest incarnation of the Ducato/ Boxer also known as X250 and distinguished from it's predecessor by the upturned headlamps extending almost up to the windscreen together with repeater indicators in the door mirrors.

Sitting beside and older model the differences are very clear, which they probably will be at the dealer's lot.

If you have bought one of they new bu##ers, be sure to give it a darned good test drive before you part with any more cash!

If, as I suspect being a 2.0 hdi of 2006 vintage, it's one of the previous models then there really are not too many issues to worry about as it was a well sorted van before being replaced by the new and mostly improved version and as long as it drives OK and the driving position suits you it should serve you well.

userspud
Posted: 26 August 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lives on the forums

Posts: 535
50025
Location: Swift Lifestyle 530LP near dragonland.


Thanks Rich,

That has put my mind at rest. Roll on the 12th.!!
useremmbeedee
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 89
252525
Location: Redditch Autoroller 200 (Ford Transit 2200)


Having just retired, we are considering a new motorhome & whilst researching the options came across this problem, (or "characteristic" if you believe Fiat).
We have never owned a motorhome before, although we did borrow a VW (1966 vintage) many years ago & quite enjoyed it.
TBH I had heard something about the reversing problem on Fiat Ducatos (vans, not MH's), even before we started looking at motorhomes, but have been amazed at the extent of the problem (as reported in MMM & on here) & Fiat's reaction to it. We obviously decided that whatever we bought would NOT be based on a Sevel chassis.
We visited the Malvern show & on every stand we visited we explained that we didn't want a Fiat/Peugeot based vehicle & the reasons why. Almost without exception, the salesmen said that it wasn't such a big problem & that we shouldn't worry about it as only a very tiny proportion of the vehicles were affected, if any. I didn't buy this line, but the problem we are having is that the vast majority of MH's seem to be built on the Sevel chassis & the layout we prefer seems to be very rare on anything else that we can afford. Salesmen state that we are excluding about 70% of the supply & that does seem to be true. Nevertheless, we have continued our search & have since visited many dealerships.
The worst reaction was at Brownhills Newark, where the salesman was very forceful in his denial of the problem, said it was caused by people who didn't know how to drive & that they had had no complaints. He did admit, however, that they had had people trying to cancel after leaving a deposit & subsequently discovering the problem. (They have refused to refund deposits in this situation). He also suggested that we should visit their service depot to check on this, & speak to their mechanics. We did so & were surprised to be informed by the young lady who seemed to be in charge of the service reception that it wouldn't be worth speaking to any of them as they had a complete change of staff recently & were thus all new & wouldn't know anything about it! Strange. She did say, however, that they HAD had complaints from a few owners. One in particular, Brownhills themselves thought was a problem & called in Fiat. Fiat's reaction? Not a problem.
We have now discovered a MH that we think would suit us & it is a Fiat, but based on the previous Ducato chassis. It is an Adria Coral S 680 SL, 57 reg & apparently ex-demo. It has a 2.3 JTD engine (110 HP) with the 5 speed gearbox. I haven't had a test drive yet, but am I correct in thinking that this vehicle should not be affected by the problem? As far as I can see, it is only the new version that suffers.
Finally, thanks for a very informative forum, we evidently have a lot more to learn yet!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Now that the Italians have had their holidays it seems that things on are on the move at Fiat.
As you all know there have been complaints all over Europe and in the end it seems Fiat are about to bow to the pressure.
Firstly Fiat have 'trialled' a modified gearbox and clutch in a motorhome in Italy and it now reverses up a slope of 27% without cooking the clutch, juddering 'significantly', or risking damage to the gearbox.
It appears that this modification now meets the rules in Italy.
The best they could do before was 16%.
Tests carried out on an Iveco 3.85 ton RWD van show that it will reverse up a slope of 40% without risk of damage, but its looking like that within the existing gearbox and the space available this is as good as Fiat can manage.
Word from Italy (not official yet) is that this modification is going to be available to us in late January, but involves a comlete stripdown and could be more than a week of a job to do it.
Fiat being Fiat there will be more cock-ups along the way, and they are not going to issue a recall so it will be up to owners to demand the work once an official statement is made to say this will be done.
Hopefully this will be soon.
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 27 August 2008 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


Hi emmbeedee - and welcome to the forum.

We have had a range of different motorhomes and were looking forward to changing this year to a new van on the highly regarded (present problems apart) Fiat/Sevel chassis. Without doubt there have been many improvements to the comfort and driving refinement of this model but we had to ask ourselves the same question - do we really want to take the chance of getting one of the vehicles affected? Worse, would we also want to go through the experience that Andy Stothert has to try and get a remedy?

The answers were emphatically no so we looked around and eventually have bought a 2005 model Fiat Ducato van conversion which suits our needs and, more importantly, is a model that has had all the wrinkles ironed out by several 'facelifts' over the last few years.

Because of the intransigence of Fiat I personally will avoid buying any new X250 based Sevel chassis van or indeed, any second hand (2007/08) model without written assurance that the problem has been corrected by Fiat. Rather wait until after the problem has been rectified in the (possibly 2009) next generation Ducato.

Regards, David
usercatinou
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Good news indeed Andy - many thanks from us and I am sure the other owners similarly affected, for all your hard work and publicity on this matter. We won't actually hold our breath but will certainly look out for any Fiat notices on the matter.

In spite of the problems with the new model, it (once sorted ) "knocks spots off our old one" - so far
userMelvin
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK




Well done Andy, hopefully will shall be nearer a solution
userBazza454
Posted: 27 August 2008 1:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1235
100010010025
Location: Hobby Van EXC - Milton Keynes Bucks.


Glancing throught this months MMM it's interesting to see such large discounts being offered on new motorhomes, up to £10k in many instances, before any negotiation, and mainly on Fiat.

I realise that Fiat have the lions share of motorhome sales, and that there is a bit of a "credit crunch" at the moment, but I just wonder if all the publicity about the Fiat problems are beginning to bite at the dealerships.

Chatting to a friend who works for a large dealership over the weekend, he said that anything over £40k is difficult to sell at the moment, anything on a Fiat or a Peugeot is just about impossible.

Keep up the good work.

usercolin
Posted: 27 August 2008 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Bazza454 - 2008-08-27 1:51 PM

Glancing throught this months MMM it's interesting to see such large discounts being offered on new motorhomes, up to £10k in many instances, before any negotiation, and mainly on Fiat.

I realise that Fiat have the lions share of motorhome sales, and that there is a bit of a "credit crunch" at the moment, but I just wonder if all the publicity about the Fiat problems are beginning to bite at the dealerships.

Chatting to a friend who works for a large dealership over the weekend, he said that anything over £40k is difficult to sell at the moment, anything on a Fiat or a Peugeot is just about impossible.

Keep up the good work.


If you check prices of secondhand Adria Twins, new models are now selling cheaper than old model, this can only be due to reversing problem as layout and forward driving is much improved
useremmbeedee
Posted: 27 August 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 89
252525
Location: Redditch Autoroller 200 (Ford Transit 2200)


Andy, what rules are these? Does this mean that it did not meet the rules in Italy previously? Are there rules in Italy about what incline a vehicle can climb in reverse
userTracker
Posted: 27 August 2008 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Well done Andy for following this through with such vigour and my comments below are no reflection on your actions - rather a reflection on the actions of Fiat - again.

Any vehicle that will reverse up a 27% incline will be good enough for me - after all how often do you reverse up a 1 in 4 gradient anyway!

Whether or not the revised gearing will actually do this in real life is another matter as, like the 'official' fuel consumption figures for a car that are impossible to replicate in real life - we shall see!

I don't see how stripping and rebuilding a gearbox can take a week - even for a Fiat mechanic! Surely only a one day job at most for one who knows how to do it - which he would when tackling the second one!

As we live an hour (by van) from the nearest Fiat dealer and even more to the nearest Fiat Commercial dealer I think maybe we should still give the X250 a miss for a year or two!
usercolin
Posted: 27 August 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Well you know me, every silverlining has a dark cloud, whats the betting most vans won't qualify for a gearbox change, as VOSA don't rate this as a problem we don't have any rules that say "must be able to reverse up X% hill", so it will be up to Fiat to decide if your van needs a new box! I reacon the fights far from over and don't rely on buying new van yet hoping any judder will be fixed.

Edited by colin 2008-08-27 9:31 PM
userpkc
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 812
500100100100


A matter of a pinion
I wandered Lakeland in high gear But all t’was not so well I fear,
to climb from sleepy forest glade, I selected pinion retrograde.
When all at once o’er vale and hills, came sounds of future garage bills.
Came a juddering, it’s source I feel, that poxy dual mass clutch flywheel.
With gnashing teeth,(the vans and mine) I hurried to the phone help line.
Complaint explained, the knave retorts, no such issue, come eat my shorts!
Increase the revs! Be more realistic, it's just a vehicle characteristic.
With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is
* beyond reasonable repair”
“Be off! How dare you ruin our slumber, here take this vehicle complaint number”
So duly chastened I did go, To await news from brave Andy and Mike Jago.
Now I covet blue ovals from afar, and wish upon three pointed star
All future movement to the fore. To places fond, to return no more.
The sayings true, Alas, alack! there really is no going back.

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.
Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.
usercolin
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


pkc - 2008-08-28 9:02 AM


With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is
* beyond reasonable repair”

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.
Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.

usercatinou
Posted: 28 August 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


pkc - that was brilliant
userpkc
Posted: 28 August 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 812
500100100100


Thanks Catinou, just having my words worth.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 28 August 2008 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I've collected the Fiat (the one with the sucked gearbox) from our dealers today and it still has the idler gear rattle whilst ticking over hot - has anyone else noticed this?
As far as the reverse gear ratio change goes this is far from a done-deal as yet, and until we get something in writing, the efforts to put Fiat under pressure must contiunue.

Now where's m'quill for another letter to Fiats,
To tell e'm they're such a bunch of nice chaps*

Sorry I just couldn't find a word to quite rhyme with Fiats.
usermikemoss
Posted: 28 August 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 163
1002525
Location: Corsham, Wilts. 1998 Bessacarr E695


pkc that's the best laugh I've had in ages. Well done indeed - fabulous!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 29 August 2008 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Can any of you knowledgable sorts tell me why I'm having to log on every time I go to the forum nowadays when I neve had to before?

Our van returned from the menders again yesterday with a fresh gearbox and clutch and it's got to be said that whilst it still judders in reverse the new clutch has made it a lot more pleasant when taking off in first gear - all that jerkines and on/off tendency has gone.
There is still no word from Italy about the solution (lower reverse gear) and whilst it is now being openly talked about there, and, like Peugeot, offered to owners in Italy the staff at Fiat UK are refusing to say whether us lot here will get anything.
Back to square one? Well hopefully not, but the considerable costs are obvisously still being weighed up against lost sales if they don't offer a fix.

We are off again for a fortnight now doing that 4 letter word thing (work) so I'm sure I can rely on you shower to keep this matter at the front of the queue on the forum.

And any owner who isn't happy with the way their Ducato reverses, and hasn't made an official complaint should really get on with it sharpish.
userRayjsj
Posted: 30 August 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Intresting to read the test on the new Autocruise Pace by Jonathon Lloyd in this month's MMM, he describes reversing it, the gearbox sounded like someone 'kicking over a galvanised bucket full of bolts' Hmmmm, is this a 'fix' ???? no Juddering ??? thanks but no thanks ! (I've made a note of the Registration no. so as to avoid it like the plague,for when it gets sold on to some poor innocent). Such a shame as Autocruise(Swift) are really trying,and getting it right.
usercolin
Posted: 30 August 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Buying 'cheap' shoddy goods with a known problem, tarting then up with a few bits of imatation veneer and cloth on the walls then selling on to a unsuspecting punter is not 'realy trying and getting it right' at least not in my book, any manufacturer has a responsability to ensure the parts they use are fit for purpose, a year ago Swift could be excused not now.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 31 August 2008 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


5000500050001000100100100100252525
Location: Herefordshire - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


AndyStothert - 2008-08-29 8:28 PM

Can any of you knowledgable sorts tell me why I'm having to log on every time I go to the forum nowadays when I neve had to before


No, I can't - but sometimes forum-member details seem to get lost and, every so often, I also have to re-logon.

Next time you logon, make sure the 'remember my details' box below the 'insert password' box is ticked, otherwise you'll have to re-logon each time.

If the box is in fact ticked and you find that you still need to logon, then the forum software is probably persecuting you for initiating such gigantic threads and making it work overtime to maintain them.

If all else fails, contact the forum administrators.
userRayjsj
Posted: 31 August 2008 3:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


colin - 2008-08-30 8:36 PM

Buying 'cheap' shoddy goods with a known problem, tarting then up with a few bits of imatation veneer and cloth on the walls then selling on to a unsuspecting punter is not 'realy trying and getting it right' at least not in my book, any manufacturer has a responsability to ensure the parts they use are fit for purpose, a year ago Swift could be excused not now.



Colin,
The 'getting it right' bit refers to their design (a bit of a 'copy' i know)
and finish (i think the veneer looks nice!! ) NOT their choice of Vehicle.
I think that all Converters with any (financial) sense should be seriously looking at alternatives to 'Sevel' underpinnings,which are 'tainted' and will stay that way until the Manual Gearbox problem is 'Publically' resolved (with adverts saying what the problem WAS,and what they have/are doing to put it right) or they will stay 'bargepole length' away from sensible buyers. Especially used ones with no written proof of being 'Fixed' by Fiat/Peugeot.
usercolin
Posted: 31 August 2008 7:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


We'll proboly get in trouble for discusing Swift but what the hell. We only look at pvc's so can only comment on them, gf is well taken by some aspects of the Modail range, thinks it looks a bit nicer than some others, I'm not 100% in favour, the bit of extra inlay on locker doors looks ok but I don't like the trim on window sills, looks exactly what it is, cut off a lenght and not well finished at ends, the Rythm which we half considered, has very poor storage in reach of galley, not seen a Pace 'in the flesh' but the MIRO seems quite high such that even on a 3500kg base payload is little higher than the 3300kg Twin, also I'm not so keen on the cloth on walls of front dinette, also looking at photo's the lower lockers at rear have drop down doors which will not be able to be opened if anything is in central storage area. But saying that, if ones at NEC will be giving it a good going over, as I would prefer to have a UK converter.
userkontiki
Posted: 1 September 2008 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 111
100


As somebody who is looking at buying new or at least not very old I am really concerned. I was really looking forward to getting another Fiat based van as I was really pleased with the old 2.8JTD. Living in Wales one thing we have is loads of hills & it is unlikely I could avoid reversing at sometime up one.
My dilema is what do I do, after reading the other forum I was amazed at the reaction of some people complaining that taking this action would damage the value of their M/H. Well they are probably right as I wouldn't touch a second hand van until I know what the outcome is & if Fiat are willing to accept this as a fault & it will be fixed as a recall. Just fixing vans that the owners have registered the complaint is no use to me. I would be concerned that this fault could happen a few years down the line. Nomatter how this came to light burying their heads in the sand & denying people the right to complain by what ever means they can is only delaying the inevitable.

All Fiat owners should be complaining en masse to their helpline. What about a campaign to get every owner to ring them the same week with everybody reporting the 'Judder' after all I can make any vehicle judder when engaging the clutch. You will at least get it logged & a incident number, then if they do start to fix the problem you are on the list. The dealers aren't going to be bothered checking every vehicle especially if Fiat is picking up the bill, they will be glad of the extra income.

I am left with the decision that if I want to get another van this year as I will have to either look at Mercedes, Ford or Renault based ones but that limits my choice. The other alternative is to find a late model 2.8 JTD but I really didn't want one too old.
userJudgeMental
Posted: 1 September 2008 1:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



I have a euramobil ford based camper, was thinking of changing next year to another euramobil model which is on a Fiat. The thing is, if they are only going to offer a fix for those who complain, does this mean they are still rolling out of the factory without a fix being implemented at source?

userMelvin
Posted: 1 September 2008 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


The ability too now reverse up a 27% slope, 16% prior to this without damage to the transmission, does this mean the current Fiat X250 are not road leagal in Italy ? and if so under does this affect their legality in other european countries ?
userkontiki
Posted: 1 September 2008 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 111
100


I was wondering that if you are buying a new Fiat based motorhome you could get the dealer to sign something along the lines that he would refund your money in full or at least repair the vehicle for this particular fault whenever it occurs within a reasonable time span. How legally binding would it be, also if the dealer wouldn't give you some type of assurance in writing would you want to buy from them
userElliot
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



At the end of the day it will all depend how Fiat deals with the units in the supply chain? They know how many are out there. The big question for them is will they recall all the units or just ignore them and hope it is not a 100% failure. This is the big money question. The other point is how long will the damage to the point of sales market carry on? Will all resale units carry a health warning? Because after this episode I would imagine the requirement for them will be fairly low. Mr Fiat has a lot of decisions to make
userTracker
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I can't imagine Fiat, or any UK based motor home dealer for that matter, being too worried about future residual values?

They will just shrug their shoulders, offer a crap trade in price, and say that it is all down to supply and demand without specifying a reason - which of course will not be untrue - just economical with the truth.

Equally I can't imagine Fiat will willingly rebuild or replace any gearboxes they don't have to.

I don't know whether the converters or the selling dealers have any influence over Fiat to bring pressure to have all of their current and future stocks of unmodified vans repaired, but I imagine that the sheer logistics make that well nigh improbable and unrealistic?

So as ever was, it will probably fall to the proud owner of his/her new/nearly new/used pride and joy to have to suffer the aggravation and insult of having to discuss/argue with their local Fiat dealer/commercial dealer about the need or not for a new reverse gear, gearbox, clutch assembly and/or ecu update.

Hardly makes one want to buy one does it!

On the other hand if you feel like a gamble now could be an excellent time to buy a new or nearly new Fiat based van - if the price is right!

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-01 5:28 PM
userElliot
Posted: 1 September 2008 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



Just a thought !!!! I wonder if Mr Fiats Ferrari goes uphill backwards or are they affected as well
usercolin
Posted: 2 September 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


I note that a few people have complained about judder in first as well as reverse, so I'm guessing there is more than a change to reverse gear to be done.
I'm also wondering how the van gets pan european type approval, vis a vis the reversing rule for Italy, are they submitted for type approval in country of manufacture then having variation to meet UK regs, or are they submitted straight away for a pan european type approval?
userRayjsj
Posted: 2 September 2008 11:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


It's amazing how many 'nearly new' low mileage X250 based M/homes,panel van conversions there are on dealers forecourts at the moment, am i suprised ? of course not, would I buy one ? NOT on your life. certainly not yet.... Probably never.
Is Alistair Darling really private Frazier from Dad's Army in disguise????. Weeeere Dooomed Laddie,all Doooomed !!! it'll be his fault that anything bought with a Euro is dearer today.
userColin9591
Posted: 3 September 2008 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 125
10025
Location: Keswick, The Lakes


Question for Andy.

Hi Andy,
As noted on another thread, I'm planning a custom build on a new 3.0 semi-automatic Ducato LWB. Several people have suggested that this 3.0/semi-auto combination is not afflicted by the dreadful judder issue.

Can you help me by confirming that it is the case and that the 3.0/semi-auto combination doesn't suffer from this problem please.

Many thanks for your help.

Best Regards

Colin
userRoyH
Posted: 3 September 2008 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Gets involved

Posts: 286
100100252525
Location: West Berkshire


Hi Colin9591,

See a post from Andy about the middle of the last page date 29th August. He has gone away for a fortnight, so if you don't hear from him that's why. He would not ignore you.
userColin9591
Posted: 3 September 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 125
10025
Location: Keswick, The Lakes


RoyH - 2008-09-03 8:46 PM

Hi Colin9591,

See a post from Andy about the middle of the last page date 29th August. He has gone away for a fortnight, so if you don't hear from him that's why. He would not ignore you.


Thanks for your help. We're not in a great hurry so am happy to await Andy's return.

Best Regards

ColinS
usertrigrem
Posted: 3 September 2008 11:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 149
10025
Location: Derbyshire Autocruise Starburst


Whilst I realise that the juddergate problem has been associated with Fiat, Peugeot must have had the same problem.
An interesting quote in the September edition of the Caravan club magazine . from Peugeot as follows.
"We will shortly be releasing a software download which improves the torque at low revs, but a new lower reverse gear is also being developed. Both options will be available as a retro- fit to current customers vehicles. New vehicles coming out of the factory, will however be built with a lower reverse gear as standard"
No mention was made regarding who pays for the retrofit.
Perhaps Fiat should talk to Peugeot who seem to have taken seriously a problem which Fiat claimed, at the start, did not exist,
userPorky
Posted: 4 September 2008 10:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pillar of the forums

Posts: 670
5001002525
Location: Exeter, Devon


Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

Well fed and happy, Porky
userColin9591
Posted: 4 September 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 125
10025
Location: Keswick, The Lakes


Porky - 2008-09-04 10:41 AM

Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

Well fed and happy, Porky


Thanks Porky, that's just the type of reassurance I need. Now, have they fixed the water ingress problem?

Regards

ColinS
userrupert123
Posted: 4 September 2008 11:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Colin9591 - 2008-09-04 11:48 AM

Porky - 2008-09-04 10:41 AM

Hi Colin. We have ordered a left hand drive Autotrail Tracker EKS with the 3.0 LHD automatic for collection on 1st May. On reading all the horrors we contacted our dealers, Chelston Motorhomes (Devon) who advise that this arrangement is not affected. They have offered a test drive in one and a letter confirming that should it occur on our vehicle when it arrives it will be considered a fault and the balance will not be payable until resolved. Can`t say fairer than that!!!!

Well fed and happy, Porky


Thanks Porky, that's just the type of reassurance I need. Now, have they fixed the water ingress problem?

Regards



ColinS


I took delivery on 3 April and water ingress have been fixed then.

Edited by rupert123 2008-09-04 11:53 AM
userGoldcoaster
Posted: 5 September 2008 1:26 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Hi Rupert 123,
Re the water ingress fix -
Have you lifted the new engine cover and checked for signs of corrosion around the injectors etc?
The reason I ask is that some of the "Fixed" ones landing here in OZ still have untreated corrosion in that area, and Fiat have just plonked the cover over the damage - in a "cover-up"
Does the top rubber section of the scuttle really cling to the lower edge of the windscreen and provide a water proof connection?
Is the centre join in the scuttle now water tight?
Your comments would be greatly appreciated,
Cheers, Bill
userRayjsj
Posted: 5 September 2008 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Goldcoaster Bill,
As this thread strongly suggests when looking at a 'Sevel' based M/H or panel Van conversion whether new or nearly new if it's on the 'New' X250 chassis, Make sure that you Test drive THE ACTUAL vehicle (not one similar) that you are buying, and make sure that the test drive involves reversing up a fair sized hill at least a 1 in 4 or 5. (25% in new 'money') . If it tries to shake itself to bits trying, don't buy it !! otherwise you could be in for some very expensive heartaches. The only one seemingly not affected is the so called 'Comfort-a-matic' automatic with a 3 litre engine,although some with smaller 100ps engines And 5-speed gearboxes say they don't have the problem either ? the onus is on the Buyer (beware) to Test before parting with their cash. Sorry if this is telling granny how to suck eggs,but people ARE still buying AND are still suprised/angry/frustrated when this fault arises.
userHymer C 9.
Posted: 5 September 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 2904
2000500100100100100
Location: Anywhere Sometimes. Hymer 584 (2000)


pkc - 2008-08-28 9:02 AM

A matter of a pinion
I wandered Lakeland in high gear But all t’was not so well I fear,
to climb from sleepy forest glade, I selected pinion retrograde.
When all at once o’er vale and hills, came sounds of future garage bills.
Came a juddering, it’s source I feel, that poxy dual mass clutch flywheel.
With gnashing teeth,(the vans and mine) I hurried to the phone help line.
Complaint explained, the knave retorts, no such issue, come eat my shorts!
Increase the revs! Be more realistic, it's just a vehicle characteristic.
With girded loins, my courage plucked, “Nay Sir” said I “Yon box is
* beyond reasonable repair”
“Be off! How dare you ruin our slumber, here take this vehicle complaint number”
So duly chastened I did go, To await news from brave Andy and Mike Jago.
Now I covet blue ovals from afar, and wish upon three pointed star
All future movement to the fore. To places fond, to return no more.
The sayings true, Alas, alack! there really is no going back.

*Sorry, could'nt find a word that scanned.
Thanks to Andy Stothert for all his hard work.


PKC. that has to be one of best posts I have read in a while. (pointed out to me by my OH) I have to admit. Carol.
userGoldcoaster
Posted: 6 September 2008 1:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Hello Ravisi,
Thanks for the reply regarding the Judder of which I am pretty well up to date.
What I was looking for was a report from someone who has had a proper Fiat authorised - or ex Factory - fix of the water ingress problem.
Not just the PATCH UP done on the earlier recalls.
I have seen brand NEW Fiats here, that appear to have had an engine cover fitted over an already corroded engine!
Just wondering if the factory was making sure that the engines had not been subject to water damage prior to fitting engine covers.
Regards, Bill
userJeffus
Posted: 6 September 2008 5:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


Hi everyone and Andy,

Sorry I've been so long updating but I have only just managed to get a connection.

Ok so as promised . . . I have just picked up our new Bessacarr E795 with the 160 multijet engine. Arriving at Marquis August 27th for a test drive. First thing I asked was find me a hill I can reverse up. Not knowing the area (Winchester) I let the hand over guy drive. Eventually we found one that was quite and allowed me to do my test reversing. I would love to tell you that the bloney van nearly shook itself to bits . . . but it didn't in fact just the opposite. I've got to admit I found it very hard to find this judder, after a few attempts I managed something that could be felt very slightly but I would describe it as a slight tingling. Certainly not a judder, no where near and I can certainly live with it. I must also add I had to really keep the revs down to induce it. If I reversed normally I couldn't feel anything, it just reversed up the hill easily. I drove the vehicle back to Marquis (about 10 miles) and was really surprised at the ease in which it climbed hills. It has about 130 miles on the clock but pulled like a train. Gawd know what it will do when it's run in. Very impressed.

So with my mind put mildly to rest I checked round the rest of the van and looked forward to Monday 1st Sept to collect her. At this point I have to commend Marquis at Lower Upham who have been quite brilliant. Nothing was too much trouble and we were made to feel very welcome even to the point we stayed over night a couple of nights in their compound as we wanted to move all our gear from the old to the new van (which we did last Sunday/Monday). We fulltime so we have nowhere to sleep except in our 4 wheeled home. Thank you Steve Barnes (sales), Paul (Service manager) and Tony (handover).

There was a few teething problems I won't bore you with them the main being having to order a new base plate for my Caro sat dish (not in stock) so 2 to 3 weeks and has to come from Germany (didn't know Oyster was German). There was a few more niggley probs but Paul soon had them fixed. Handover went smoothly and I'm a very happy man (wife likes it too, the van that is).

One other problem and I mention it 'cause Swift were NOT at all helpful last Friday. The two running lights over the Luton won't work (still don't) and Paul was trying to get Swift to fax the wiring diagram down to him. Swift's reply "sorry mate we close midday on Fridays". So I have to make a return journey when Swift deem it OK to forward the diagram.

I have driven the new van a little over the last week and everytime I drive it I get a bit more excited with it. The clutch is so light you find yourself stalling it and the gear shift is truly like a hot knife though butter. I have deliberately reversed it when unnecessary but still I have found no real judder. I'll let you know how it goes after a few more weeks.

Re the water ingress problem. As you know over the last week it has just bucketed down and today Sat 6th it's still peeing it down as I am writing this. In between the down pours I have been out to check under the bonnet and I can report it is snuff dry under there. There's a bit of water round where the air intake is, but that's all.

All the best guys,

Jeffus.
userrupert123
Posted: 6 September 2008 6:03 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Goldcoaster - 2008-09-05 1:26 AM

Hi Rupert 123,
Re the water ingress fix -
Have you lifted the new engine cover and checked for signs of corrosion around the injectors etc?
The reason I ask is that some of the "Fixed" ones landing here in OZ still have untreated corrosion in that area, and Fiat have just plonked the cover over the damage - in a "cover-up"
Does the top rubber section of the scuttle really cling to the lower edge of the windscreen and provide a water proof connection?
Is the centre join in the scuttle now water tight?
Your comments would be greatly appreciated,
Cheers, Bill


William,

I must admit I have not looked in depth at the fix but I can say with certainty that I have never had any water in the engine bay in nearly 7000 miles since April, and we have had a very wet summer even by UK standards. My van is currently with the dealers having a sat. dish fitted but will take a look at the areas you mention when i get it back. However if no water I would have to say the fix, whatever it is works.
userRayjsj
Posted: 6 September 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Jeff,
So glad that your new van isn't plagued with the Judder, It somehow makes it even more scary that not ALL are effected ?? If what they say is correct, that a change to the ECU and a different reverse ratio fixes it.
WHY aren't all effected ? you would think that less 'loaded' chassis would Judder less, but that doesn't seem to be the case (Andy's the case in point). So it's got to be EVERY vehicle on it's merits, IE a lengthy Road test and a reverse up a steep hill on EVERY vehicle purchased. Any seller who refuses probably have something to hide.
userGoldcoaster
Posted: 7 September 2008 1:38 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Hello rupert 123,
Thanks for your reply and the good news contained therein.
The fact that your engine compartment has stayed dry for so long is very encouraging.
I owned a 09/2007 3 litre manual which suffered from water ingress which I had repaired professionally at my expense, after the unsatisfactory Fiat recall fix.
Reverse judder was ever so slight, but not feeling comfortable with the overall picture, I sold he rig.
I am now contemplating ordering another X250 based conversion with the (MTA)Comformatic transmission.
Having torn up $xxxx's on the sale of the previous Motorhome, prior to commiting to another, I want to be sure that most of the problems have been sorted out.
I believe that some of the new Fiats in transit to Australia sit on the wharf in Singapore for weeks on end, and as a result, if the waterproofing is not good the engines get drowned.
You could probably throw in a bit of salt laden spray for good measure.
Thanks for your help,
Regards, Bill
userAndyStothert
Posted: 7 September 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


We've just returned from a very rain sodden Cornwall and a chance to examine our van's underbonnet waterproofing - the rain runs under the engine cover so the thing is really there only to stop you seeing the water. That said the injectors have been smothered in silicone, the wiper motor, and ECU etc have covers, and when you're batting along a motorway at 60 mph in heavy rain there is probably more water being sprayed and sucked up into the engine compartment than anything which comes from above in a downpour.
Re the post about the 3 litre autos it seems that they aren't affected by the juddering - Peter Vaughan (of Which Motorcaravan mag) reckons he reversed one up a steep hill in the Peak District and it was as smooth as any vehicle should be.
But that was only one and time will tell.
Of the others (the manual ones) the fact that Fiat and Peugeot are to start fitting a lower ratio reverse gear in the production models from January 09 (it is presently being tested in Italy) says that every single 6 speed Fiat or Peugeot with 2.2, 2.3 litre or 3 litre engine has this potentially damaging defect. And all new motorhomes until about next August will be thus afflicted.
Information apparently leaking out of Fiat (by disgruntled motorhome owning employees) shows that a 6 speed 3.5 ton 2.3 litre engine chassis loaded to its permitted weight cannot reverse up a hill steeper than 1 in 6 without risking clutch or gearbox damage.
Whilst we now know that Fiat are developing a fix for the Peugeot owners and that Italian Fiat owners are being offered (quietly) the lower ratio reverse gear in January there has been no hint whatsoever that owners in the UK will get their vans fixed.
Until we get a written undertaking from Fiat that they will sort these vans out, as they are still coming off the production line in a defective state to buy or order one would be very unwise.
Once we have a written undertaking from Fiat that they will fix them our investments should be secure, but Fiat don't appear to want to give one.
So keep telling everyone to steer clear of these lovely to drive but basically flawed vehicles.

And if you've got one, and haven't reversed it up a steep hill then do so soon - and make an official complaint to Fiat about the design defect which makes them judder.
usercolin
Posted: 9 September 2008 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Soon drops to the bottom.
I'm still not convinced that a simple change of gearing is a long term solution, but then I'm not noted for looking on the bright side. If the gears can be fitted inside the present gearbox why has it taken so long to come up with solution? and of cause it will not help the few that have complained of judder in first gear!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 9 September 2008 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525



If only we could get Fiat to say they WILL change the reverse gear on the vehicles affected, at least it would be a start.
They are going to do it very quietly in other countries in Europe, but so far there has been no indication that Fiat UK will be doing the same.
Incidentally I'm still getting an average of one more unhappy owner a day contacting me to ask for advice about what to do - Fiat are still pumping these things out of the factory with the same defect, and folk are still buying them.
The lower ratio reverse gear (so a bigger cog) which Fiat (and Peugeot) are going to fit to Peugeots and in Fiat in other countries, isn't ideal as it is still only just within what is acceptable, but those in Italy who have it fitted and are road testing it say that it is probably going to be OK in most circumstances on vehicle weighing less than 3500kg.
The bigger ones are as yet untested by Fiat according to the Italian motorhome owners who work at Sevel, as most motorhomes there are less than 3500kg.
It may be that the UK market has been thrown to the wolves because we have a lot of heavier vehicles 'out there'.
It is getting time for us all to contact Watchdog I think.
userTomo3090
Posted: 10 September 2008 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1201
1000100100
Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Perhaps if the various publications, commercial and motorhomes, just wrote in their road tests that "Until the gearbox problem is fixed whatever you do don't buy this vehicle!" and didn't even mention anything else about it, then the converters, dealers and companies involved in producing vehicles with a defect might sit up and notice.

I say this as someone who's van doesn't judder, so far, but has sympathy with those that do.

You are fighting a multinational company with a advertising budget of millions, threads on "lifestyle relevant" websites arn't enough to either bring this problem to wider audience or to make those companies involved be inclined to do anythng about them.

Perhaps a few reviews written like that might attract the likes of Top Gear, 5th Gear and consumer protection programmes

userTomo3090
Posted: 10 September 2008 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1201
1000100100
Location: Warrington, Centre of the known World!


Oh look! The thread about the juddering is juddering! How spooky is that.
userkontiki
Posted: 10 September 2008 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 111
100


Will never happen though, they get so much of their income from them so they aren't likely to be as critical as they maybe should be. Also a statement as strong as you suggest might leave them open for libel or slander.
I wish they would come out & admit there is a problem, as somebody who wants to buy a new van it's making me hesitate. I have the cash waiting but I can't decide what to do, should I only look at vans on other chassis but this really limits my selection. Do I look at older vans based on the 2.8 JTD (I was more than happy with my previous one) One thing I don't see that I should take the risk however small with a van that might have a problem, maybe if I had some written warranty from the dealer that would cover me in the event of there being a problem. Again this could be difficult unless the gearbox fails then it would be a matter of opinion as to how serious the judder is.
usermike 202
Posted: 10 September 2008 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Don't buy on a Fiat 250 is the advice given on this forum. The more potential purchasers that wait, will leave suppliers gasping for sales. When they, the dealers and manufacturers, are hit in their pockets then just watch them go into action. It will be interesting to see how many convertors change to Ford, Merc etc for the 2009 model year.
I got shot of my Fiat based van for a Ford based van and could not be happier.
I still have sympathies for the likes of Andy, and would be willing to contribute to an event that brings the problem to the Public at large.
Recently I have still seen un-informed customers listening to salesmen waxing lyrical about the (large no of unsold) Fiat based vans on their forecourt.
Its buyer beware and if you buy any van, large or small then all you are doing is helping Fiat etc.
A lot of guys have put a large amount of their time into this problem, but in the end its your money and your choice.
Good luck with whatever you decide
userAndyStothert
Posted: 11 September 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I received an email today from a Hymer owner who has just had to have the clutch replaced (mileage 14,000) after attempting to judder his way backwards up a steep hill. He duly coughed up the price when asked to do so by the Fiat dealer, as clutches aren't covered by the warranty in most circumstances, but nobody at Fiat mentioned that it may be their fault and not the owners.
But (as expected) the new clutch didn't fix the juddering so he started making enquiries and found the forums - shock horror really was his reaction.
I've told him to demand his money back for the cluch replacement, and we'll see how it goes. He can show them the forum, and I'll give him the case number of hundreds of unhappy owners to support his case.
I'm no fan of the internet, or of the computer, but without it Fiat would be well and truly taking the mickey (and the money) out of folk.
usercolin
Posted: 11 September 2008 2:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Sounds like Fiat are not a company to deal with even if they do fix problem, I think this will run and run for several years, the vans now which have a 'slight vibration' will be the next ones to fail, then it will be the turn of those which show no apparent fault, don't believe me? well there's been a lot of very unhappy disco and mondeo owners who had no indication that their DMF/clutch assembly was going to fail.
userMike88
Posted: 11 September 2008 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1630
100050010025
Location: South Devon M/H 2010 Swift Mondial (Comfortmatic)


The amazing thing is that despite this and similar threads on other sites there are people still prepared to buy these faulty vehicles. Indeed there is even a thread from someone on this site who is asking about the merits of fuel consumption of the 2.3 against the 3 litre Fiat. Such a head in the sand approach is mindboggling to my mind.
userElliot
Posted: 11 September 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



At the end of the day not all motorhome buyers use the internet unless it does go national eg. TV, radio or papers they will never know because sure as eggs are eggs the dealers won’t tell them
userElliot
Posted: 11 September 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 



At the end of the day not all motorhome buyers use the internet unless it does go national eg. TV, radio or papers they will never know because sure as eggs are eggs the dealers won’t tell them


Sorry got finger shake

Edited by Elliot 2008-09-11 7:28 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 12 September 2008 7:18 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Elliot
I agree with your comments re use of the forums, several people I have spoken to had no idea that there was a problem or that the Forums even exist. I guess it needs expertise to co-ordinate a campain, plus or course a fighting fund.
As I have said on this forum before I changed my Fiat based motorhome to a ford one and it cost me £5000, so I am pretty p*ssed off and DO NOT want Fiat and Manufacturers to get away with causing so much stress and heartache.
I unfortunately do not have the expertise, however I would be more than willing to contribute to a fighting fund. No idea how much would be needed by say "Dave if he was willing" but £20 from 500 upset owners would give a £10k fund.
I hope that someone has the time and knowlege to help.

Mike
usermike 202
Posted: 12 September 2008 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Just reading Fiat advert in the September 2008 Camping & Caravanning magazine Pages 2&3 and reads "160 Multijet Power and automatic gearbox with a built-in UP function. Drives well uphill".Maybee the Auto is ok, but further down in the advert is "Multijet engine with a special motorhome gearbox. Excellent and comfortable performance in all conditions, with a full load or uphill".

I think Fiat need a new Italian/English translator that tells the truth, because what they are inferring in the second paragraph is that all gearboxes are GOOD with no problems.

Fiat lawyers have obviously very carefully crafted the ad, so that thay cannot be taken to court for lies, but let customers read into the add that all is now 'Good to Go'.

This merely reinforces my previous post re funding and more action. Just think a small amount now may save thousands in the future.

So So Angry Mike
usercolin
Posted: 12 September 2008 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


As I seem to recall saying before(or did I just mean to post it) this is a way to attack Fiat, maybe Andy would like to contact ASA over the advert(or ask someone without mag conections) as it's no good Fiat claiming we only meant going up a hill forward, if there is a known problem it is making false claims.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 September 2008 10:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Re the Fiat advert one of our unhappy band of owners has already contacted the ASA but the response was that they only concern themselves with the quality of the adverts and not the quality of the product.

If Fiat don't follow Peugeot's late but welcome lead in this we are proposing to disrupt proceedings at the NEC show - if that is I can energise enough dissatisfied owners to actually do something positive. The problem seems to be that everyone now thinks Fiat are bound to do what Peugoet have offered to do, but with Fiat having so many more vehicles to fix, and so a much bigger bill to face, I'm not sure they want to 'do the right thing'.
If anyone out there feels they have the experience and expertise to sort out a fiasco like this for Gods sake stick your hand up, as my only advantage was/is that I have the contacts in the motorhome press, and a dogged slightly thick and bloodyminded sort of character.
Like I said if anyone wants to take over I will give as much assistance as I can with the magazine matters and the huge reservoir of information my bulging brain (and email system) now contains.
Meanwhile if anyone wants to wear the latest fashion at the NEC show (a T shirt advertising the 'characteristics of the Fiat Ducato) they will cost about 4 quid each if we can get a hundred volunteers, and I will need to know by the last week in September if anyone is interested.

userrupert123
Posted: 13 September 2008 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Hope you get your hundred people Andy because if not it will go a long way to saying this is a 'storm in a tea cup' as far as Fiat are concerned. I have spoken with two people this week who leave me to believe that is exactly what it is. One in my village who has a year old Adria with a 130 Fiat engine. He had just returned from a two month Euro trip so was talking to him about this and mentioned the reverse problem. To my surprise he had never heard of it and had never had a problem, although he could not remember if he had ever reversed up a steep hill. He also could not care less, he was happy with the van and it has a three year warrenty so why worry. He also said why would anyone in their right mind expect a heavy loaded van to reverse up a 1 in 4 hill without some vibrations, reckoned his car would have trouble doing this. I also took my van into Spinney Motorhomes for some new bits and while their spoke to salesman I know. Their new registrations were up on last year and as they sell nearly all Fiat based vans it would seem the campaign is having little effect and fears of a collapse in Fiat market is totally unfounded. However the efforts made by you are obviously an irritation to Fiat UK and hopefully something will happen if only to get you 'off their backs'. Not sure if I am going to NEC but if so will buy a T shirt, every little helps, wonder how many others of the people shouting so loud on this forum will do the same.
usermike 202
Posted: 13 September 2008 10:46 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Unfortunately I will be in Spain when the NEC is on, but my wife and I will support the campaign, (financially) by buying two T-shirts and (Morally) by wearing them and spreading the word whenever I can on sites in Spain.

As I have said before, although I have swopped my Fiat X/250 for a Ford, I am more than happy to donate funds to any fighting cause that sorts this mess out as I was caught out as well.

Good on you Andy

Regards Mike
userham
Posted: 14 September 2008 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
A posting machine

Posts: 345
10010010025


I also have a fiat (Trigano Tribute) bought 2007 the judder is very slight. I just had the first service completed. I pointed out to the garage ( not motor home dealer its is a Iveco commercial dealer) the judder they checked with Fiat but as already stated on this forum there is no likely hood of a fix soon. I will and suggest as many of you that can, contact your local trading standards dept. (Has the goods that have been supplied are not fit for purpose). This may take the trading officers some time to investigate, But at least it is another thorn in the side of Fiat..... Secondly I have emailed BBC Watchdog with the address of this site as they are in the process of building their next series of programs in October. Again suggest as many as possible email the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/contact_index.shtml this will take you to their site. If the Problem gets air time it will be of great embarrassment to Fiat. You can imagine the Dealers (Not just motor homes it also effects the commercial vans that are sold ) going Nuts
userAndyStothert
Posted: 14 September 2008 11:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Me thinks Henry (Rupert123) is trying to wind me up again.
This storm in a teacup has forced Fiat to spend millions in a very premature redesign of the gearbox with a lower ratio reverse gear.

The fact that it there sionlny a slight judder on the flat and that it only gets critical on a steep hill is irrelevant - Fiats own figures reveal that damage can occur on a 1 in 6 hill, and you just never know when this may may present itself.
For instance we arrived at a campsite in Croatia a month ago in stunning surroundings but the only way to access the pitches next to the sea was by descending a series of steep ramps which involved going forwards on one, then backwards on the next.
There were several motorhomes (none new Fiats or Peugeots) down there, but did we dare risk taking ours down there and risk knackering another gearbox reversing back up?
No chance. Another opportunity lost because of Fiat's careless attitude to design.
Like I said this defect is a time bomb - it may never affect a certain kind of owner, but he/she will eventually sell it and the next unfortunate owner may have to pick up the bill for the ineptitude of the previous one.
Henry owns a 5 speed van, and they aren't really that bad, so he has adopted (or seems to have) adopted a slightly smug attitude to the issue. Does he think Peugoet would be going to the trouble of swapping the reverse gear in the 6 speed models if they didn't have to?
I was trying to keep Watchdog out of this for the simple reason that Fiat may agree to quietly fixing a few hundred motorhomes in preference to making it a wider issue. But perhaps it is now time to gety a wider public awareness of it before the new gearbox is introduced in January and we present owners are cast to the wind.
userRayjsj
Posted: 14 September 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Speaking as a person who mainly buys second-hand vehicles,the idea of yet another generation of Fiat/Sevel Motorhomes carrying the 'Buy with extreme caution' label makes me very angry. The poor sxd's who buy these 'crap' vehicles sometime 'down the line' will be getting a lot of heartache, the people who only get 'a slight judder' then sell on, are just passing the problem on to others, who probably won't have the beneifit of a Fiat warranty. Personally I think they are 'not fit for purpose' from new . And won't be buying one,I hope the 'Used' value drops through the floor.
(sorry, Andy) What are the details for these 'T-Shirts ? I want one.
usermike 202
Posted: 14 September 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


I note and applaud your original concerns to protect Fiat, UK manufacturers, Dealers and their sales staff. and perhaps the resale value of those owners caught in the Trap.
However have:-
Fiat listened ----NO---They have ingnored all pleas for help and denied a problem exists.
Manufacturers ----NO--- They just keep on turning out vehicles that have defects.
Most Dealers and sales staff Truthfull---NO----Lovely vehicle Sir, NO problems with gearbox, the just blatently forget to tell the truth.
So, why should we the poor old punter bear the cost, suffer the stress and anxiety caused when our vehicles fail.
NO--- The softly, softly, approach has not worked, so stuff the lot of them and go Public, Watchdog and any other campaign like the T-shirts at NEC, Etc.
userrupert123
Posted: 15 September 2008 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


AndyStothert - 2008-09-14 11:34 AM

Me thinks Henry (Rupert123) is trying to wind me up again.
This storm in a teacup has forced Fiat to spend millions in a very premature redesign of the gearbox with a lower ratio reverse gear.

The fact that it there sionlny a slight judder on the flat and that it only gets critical on a steep hill is irrelevant - Fiats own figures reveal that damage can occur on a 1 in 6 hill, and you just never know when this may may present itself.
For instance we arrived at a campsite in Croatia a month ago in stunning surroundings but the only way to access the pitches next to the sea was by descending a series of steep ramps which involved going forwards on one, then backwards on the next.
There were several motorhomes (none new Fiats or Peugeots) down there, but did we dare risk taking ours down there and risk knackering another gearbox reversing back up?
No chance. Another opportunity lost because of Fiat's careless attitude to design.
Like I said this defect is a time bomb - it may never affect a certain kind of owner, but he/she will eventually sell it and the next unfortunate owner may have to pick up the bill for the ineptitude of the previous one.
Henry owns a 5 speed van, and they aren't really that bad, so he has adopted (or seems to have) adopted a slightly smug attitude to the issue. Does he think Peugoet would be going to the trouble of swapping the reverse gear in the 6 speed models if they didn't have to?
I was trying to keep Watchdog out of this for the simple reason that Fiat may agree to quietly fixing a few hundred motorhomes in preference to making it a wider issue. But perhaps it is now time to gety a wider public awareness of it before the new gearbox is introduced in January and we present owners are cast to the wind.


Andy either I am not explaining myself very well, likely, or you are not reading my post properly, again. First my 'storm in a tea cup' bit. Fiat must have known for some time what the problem was and what most of us have long suspected, reverse gear is to high. What they will undoubtably do is keep things as quiet as possible and fix it. Ok this will cost a bit but they will probably along with new gearbox fit a couple of new body panels and call it a facelift. Now this will not cost them a great deal, I am speaking in vehicle cost terms now not what you or I would regard as a great deal. The real cost would come if they have to retro fit tens of thousands of new gearboxes but this will not happen because most have still not even heard of the problem, this is what I mean by storm in a teacup. I have said this before but the second hand value of Fiat based vans will not be affected and I know sales of new ones are not being effected. Unless this issue is broadcast loud and clear on the major media outlets then nothing much will happen. To say your campaign is an irritant to them is not meant in any way as a slight but the effect it will have is that I feel Fiat will offer a fix to people who shout loudest to keep things limited. Companies including all the major players in the motorhome business are happily still selling motorhomes and vans as are Fiat so they do not feel their is to much of a problem. The obvious way forward by Fiat would be to initially keep the point at which they start fitting the new box very quiet, they may already be doing it, and declare a facelift model when they are ready. As to feeling smug, yes a bit. I had ordered a 130bhp six speed van, believe I told you this, and because of your campaign changed my order to have the 100bhp five speed specification, this has, so far, performed without fault and I am very happy with it. At present it is at Spinny having a satalite dish and reverse camera fitted, they are also fixing a couple of problems but these are at the habitation end. Hope I get it back soon as my wife and I have been home from Scotland for nearly two weeks now and hope to get another trip in before the ski season.

Trying to wind you up, would I, any more than you would try to wind me up. How is the T shirt thing going would be curious as to how many on here are going to support it.
usercatinou
Posted: 15 September 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Hi Andy - we reported our "slight judder" to Fiat and it was confirmed to them by our local Fiat garage. We were not overly concerned UNTIL:

We set off for Italy at the end of August and after travelling via Germany and Austria when we stopped for fuel at the latter part of the journey through the Austrian mountains we could smell a definite "hot clutch" smell which concerned us a bit.

A week later we were moving to a site nearer to Pisa and TomTom took us on a route with a very steep and narrow road - not visible until after a bend - and the van refused to go up the hill, spinning tyres and severe juddering - the only course of action was to disconnect the A frame and Smart car (thank goodness we didn't have a trailer to contend with this year!) and reverse them carefully back - it took some doing but we got out. The rest of the holiday was spent being very apprehensive when we saw heavy traffic ahead on an uphill section.

As the tunnel was closed on our return we also had to contend with the steep slope to get on the ferry at low tide on Saturday - needless to say we are reporting the "near miss" to Fiat and will let you know what they say. Good luck with your campaign. Please let me know how we can get a couple of your T shirts - we are on the C & C site on Saturday at the latter part of the NEC show......
userrupert123
Posted: 15 September 2008 5:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


catinou - 2008-09-15 5:32 PM

Hi Andy - we reported our "slight judder" to Fiat and it was confirmed to them by our local Fiat garage. We were not overly concerned UNTIL:

We set off for Italy at the end of August and after travelling via Germany and Austria when we stopped for fuel at the latter part of the journey through the Austrian mountains we could smell a definite "hot clutch" smell which concerned us a bit.

A week later we were moving to a site nearer to Pisa and TomTom took us on a route with a very steep and narrow road - not visible until after a bend - and the van refused to go up the hill, spinning tyres and severe juddering - the only course of action was to disconnect the A frame and Smart car (thank goodness we didn't have a trailer to contend with this year!) and reverse them carefully back - it took some doing but we got out. The rest of the holiday was spent being very apprehensive when we saw heavy traffic ahead on an uphill section.

As the tunnel was closed on our return we also had to contend with the steep slope to get on the ferry at low tide on Saturday - needless to say we are reporting the "near miss" to Fiat and will let you know what they say. Good luck with your campaign. Please let me know how we can get a couple of your T shirts - we are on the C & C site on Saturday at the latter part of the NEC show......


Interesting one this as it would seem to be a differant problem, not associated with the reversing one. Going up steep hills should not cause a hot clutch, unless you were reduced to slipping it. The going up steep hill and van refusing/ wheels spinning sounds like a case of an overloaded van with to much weight on the rear axle.
usercatinou
Posted: 15 September 2008 7:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Not at all Rupert - the van was practically empty - as was the Smart car's petrol tank. We always travel with the minimum items on board (it helps save fuel) and our water tanks are never more than 1/2 full.

The judder on our van has been assessed and agreed to be on reverse AND 1st gear on take off. I don't know the technical reasons etc. but Adams Morey have reported their findings on our particular van to Fiat.

userTracker
Posted: 15 September 2008 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


We were at Shepton Mallet this weekend and all of the many dealers we spoke to were either denying there is a problem or very much playing it down by blaming it on the 'way you drive it'.

Bloody liars and arrogant conmen - the lot of them!

So I drove two of them one 5 speed and one 6 speed and I found that, in my non engineers but many driving years view, reverse gear is so high that you cannot safely reverse with the clutch fully engaged and both vans juddered somewhat when driven backwards ON THE LEVEL, so I saw no point in trying them on a gradient.

The judder was not violent but is unacceptable in any brand new vehicle and the high reverse gear is positively dangerous as it limits the drivers control of the vehicle.

There was also some shudder on take off in first gear but I was able to almost eliminate that with care - but should I have to?

I'm happy to report that I was able to warn about 20 people about the perils of Sevel - some in the presence of a salesman and I managed to talk some out of even considering a new Fiat based van.

This did not endear me to some salesmen but it did make them start to discuss it with their potential customers - and one customer was so incensed that the salesman had not advised him of the problem he refused to complete his purchase of a new Autotrail! Good result eh!

I WILL NOT BE BUYING ONE!

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-15 9:32 PM
userClive
Posted: 15 September 2008 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


How is progress on "T" shirts Andy?
userpkc
Posted: 16 September 2008 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 812
500100100100


Please do not take this as a criticism of Trackers post, but may I add my two pence worth to the ‘shuddergate’ thread.
As one who has had a long love/grate relationship with Sevel gearboxes I understand the quite legitimate anger at the manufacture’s cavalier attitude to the problem, I would suggest however that expressing it in the more extreme manner as suggested by some will be counter productive.
It’s a well used tactic in big business, politics, and the press to marginalise small but vocal minorities by labelling them as ‘extremists’ how ever just their cause, lets not paint ourselves into that corner.
The debate seems to have settled into trench warfare mode, with seemingly no way out for both parties, may I make a couple of suggestions?
If Fiat are so confident in the strength of their cause ( and gearboxes) why not do what an increasing number of car makers are doing. and give a five or seven year unlimited mileage guarantee on the drive train, or alternatively, or as well as, perhaps the dealers who are ‘Piggy in the middle’ as usual in this one, and probably stand to lose as much as anyone could set up an insurance based scheme giving similar protection, this could be financed by the parties concerned.
Regards PKC.

userTracker
Posted: 16 September 2008 10:48 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


No offence taken pkc as everyone has a valid point of view and discussion is good for the soul - if not for the gearbox!

The van's ride and driving feel are improved over the old vans, but I am also far from convinced that the ride and driving experience are that much better than the old van to justify the not inconsiderable expense of investing in one?

Maybe it's a good time to take a look at offerings on a Renault, Ford, VW (T5 is good to drive but a bit cramped) or Mercedes Benz?

I STILL WILL NOT BE BUYING A NEW DUCATO/BOXER!
usermike 202
Posted: 16 September 2008 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


PKC, you say any bolder action would or could be counter productive to our cause. Nothing has been done so far by Fiat/the dealers/the converters so how can you go below Zero. Are they going to be upset and send out Spooks in the night, or set up a curse to bugger the gearbox even more by remote control.
NO the lets be nice has not worked, so show them up for what they are, arrogant and liers. As for the "poor" dealers they just dont care for any one but them selves.
WELL DONE fellow sufferer at Malvern, I bet you sleep better at nights knowing that you have saved at least one soul for certain and probably more that listened to you. Just keep a wary eye on your back.
Mike
usermike 202
Posted: 16 September 2008 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Sorry Tracker meant to say Shepton Mallet.
useryeti
Posted: 16 September 2008 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


Bought my Auto Trail Scout in June 2008 2 local trail trips one of about 40 miles and one of about 120. Only problem was a massive 'thump' on start up. In July we went away for a week to Lancashire,on arrival at campsite the van juddered when trying to reverse onto pitch and clutch was smoking. When we came to move the van the clutch pedal was hard down onto the floor,it freed itself after about 2 miles!also trying to find 1st.2nd and reverse is becoming more impossible. All reported tp FIAT who gave me a garage now where near me,when I informed tghem who was near to me and an appropriate garage they have agreed,subject to Slough head office agreeing.
When I ordered the vehicle I originally wanted it on a Merc,but was told that they weren't making any on the Merc,I bet AT regret that decision!!
userClive
Posted: 16 September 2008 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Our AT Scout on a Merc has been faultless. 11 years old now and still perfic.
Just run in 45000 miles.

??

C.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 September 2008 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


500050005000100010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


catinou - 2008-09-15 7:47 PM Not at all Rupert - the van was practically empty - as was the Smart car's petrol tank. We always travel with the minimum items on board (it helps save fuel) and our water tanks are never more than 1/2 full. The judder on our van has been assessed and agreed to be on reverse AND 1st gear on take off. I don't know the technical reasons etc. but Adams Morey have reported their findings on our particular van to Fiat.

Jenny

You were travelling through Germany to Italy with a practically empty van?  No clothes, food, wine, water, bedding, levelling ramps, towels, washing up equipment, etc, etc, and you were towing a smart?

The spinning wheels are a symptom of lack of traction, meaning the weight on the front wheels was insufficient to enable the tyres to drag the combined weight of van plus Smart up the hill. 

If you haven't already done this, therefore, I would suggest you take the van, laden as for normal travel, plus the Smart on its A frame, to the nearest weighbridge, and check that you are not exceeding your permissible Gross Train Weight. 

If unsure, this will be the bottom, highest value, figure shown on the data plate for your van, normally found somewhere under the bonnet.  The handbook will tell you where.  If you exceed this weight, which is the combined actual laden weights of both van and trailer, you won't get any sympathy from Fiat.  If you are close to it, don't necessarily expect your van to re-start on hills!  GTW is the maximium weight at which the vehicle can be expected to re-start on a hill of a particular severity (I can't remember how steep, but it is not that steep).

usercatinou
Posted: 16 September 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Brian,

When I said practically empty I actually meant that we had no unecessary items for us i.e. several empty lockers and the van carefully loaded with minimum contents - such as sauces, spices etc in small containers instead of glass bottles and jars etc. We did not have much more food than we needed for a couple of days as we tend not to waste time cooking when on a long journey.

The waste water tank was empty, the water tank is never filled above 50% when travelling. Only 2 of us are in the van and we always shop on arrival in Italy - usually in Auchan near Verona.

Last year we towed a trailer which weighed about 1200 k as well as the Smart car and had no real problems and we have had the van weighed already which shows plenty of payload left on both axles.

Maybe I didn't explain the situation very well, but the wheelspin was because we had to increase the revs significantly as the van would not move uphill in 1st gear from a standing start. Even after taking the Smart and A frame off the back the van would still not go up the hill and my husband had to back carefully down and turn around so we could drive seperately to a safe place to hitch up again.
usercatinou
Posted: 16 September 2008 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Brian,

When I said practically empty I actually meant that we had no unecessary items for us i.e. several empty lockers and the van carefully loaded with minimum contents - such as sauces, spices etc in small containers instead of glass bottles and jars etc. We did not have much more food than we needed for a couple of days as we tend not to waste time cooking when on a long journey.

The waste water tank was empty, the water tank is never filled above 50% when travelling. Only 2 of us are in the van and we always shop on arrival in Italy - usually in Auchan near Verona.

Last year we towed a trailer which weighed about 1200 k as well as the Smart car and had no real problems and we have had the van weighed already which shows plenty of payload left on both axles.

Maybe I didn't explain the situation very well, but the wheelspin was because we had to increase the revs significantly as the van would not move uphill in 1st gear from a standing start. Even after taking the Smart and A frame off the back the van would still not go up the hill and my husband had to back carefully down and turn around so we could drive seperately to a safe place to hitch up again.

Sorry "twitchy finger syndrome" strikes again

Edited by catinou 2008-09-16 8:55 PM
userzulurita
Posted: 17 September 2008 8:05 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 155
1002525


Well done Tracker.

More people need to be made aware of the design fault of the NEW Fiat Ducato X250.

It really isn't FAIR on us customers who spend their life savings on a motorhome and often do not have the funds to buy another one and are left with a vehicle that is really not fit for purpose.

Although my gearbox hasn't failed (yet) I am constantly worried as to where I am driving incase I have to reverse! It is bad enough in normal situations reversing on the flat etc when there is vibration despite doing what Fiat advise.

Being as careful as I can, I still get vibrations when reversing on the flat or slight slopes let alone anything steeper. I have stalled trying to reverse onto campsite pitches and that is trying to keep revs up to Fiats recommended level!

Taking a wrong turn and having to reverse in awkward situations is a nightmare!

So more people do need to be made aware of the Fiat Ducato X250's problems. A new gearbox, clutch etc are all expensive items, why should we bear the cost of a design fault!!

If Fiat stated that they would help those of us with these affected vehicles then we would be happy I am sure but leaving us in limbo is just BAD. My vehicle will be a year old in November and I haven't heard anything from Fiat other than to give me a case number.

I for one will not buy another Fiat vehicle unless they resolve this problem for me.
userMike Parke
Posted: 17 September 2008 10:15 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 439
10010010010025
Location: Gorleston, East Norfolk. Autohomes 180 2.2 'Pug'


I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not?
usercolin
Posted: 17 September 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Mike Parke - 2008-09-17 10:15 AM

I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not?


I have not myself sat two makes side by side, but note that others have and commented on the differances.
Haveing some vans that judder and some not is quite easy to explain and I'm supprised how many people comment on it, all parts are made to tollerances, a certain part or combination of parts with differant tollerance is, IMO, causing this. As to when or if your van will judder, I have driven three vans, one didn't judder, the other two did, but not on flat tarmac, but when reversing on sloping soft(ish) grass, to quantify that, my T25 happily reverses up that slope with no effort whatsoever
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 17 September 2008 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


Mike Parke - 2008-09-17 10:15 AM

I have just purchased a new Peugeot Boxer 2.2 HDi based Autoquest 130. Picked it up a couple of weeks ago but have not used it to any extent to date. Took it for a short 100 mile run yesterday as I was 'desperate' to drive it. I found nothing wrong with it whatsoever. O.K. I did not have to reverse up a hill or any sort of incline but I did do some reversing to see if there was a problem but, as I say, nothing. Is the problem refered to soley a FIAT one? It seems funny if it is just FIAT related as they all come off the same production line, do they not?


Hi Mike

I know the thread is getting rather long now but, from the beginning, you will see that it is a SEVEL problem not a FIAT problem. One of the main differences is that Peugeot have since acknowledged there is a problem and have promised a fix (albeit may take many months to sort out) but Fiat are not, as yet, accepting there is even a problem never mind actively seeking to rectify the affected vehicles under warranty.

Purely on the bassis of the way in which Fiat, particularly, have handled the issue we decided not to buy a new van conversion recently on the X250 chassis and opted instead for a late (previous) model Fiat. Even when it comes to replacemnent time for that I will have serious doubts about buying ANY X250 based van that may have the problem lurking beneath - as yet, we do not know if the problem may manifest itself inlater years after the warranty has run out - hence the anger that those affected feel unless Fiat do something positive.

David
userMike Parke
Posted: 17 September 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 439
10010010010025
Location: Gorleston, East Norfolk. Autohomes 180 2.2 'Pug'


Thank you, gents for that. I had not read the thread in its entireity as until a couple of weeks back I had the 'old' model and, for course, the information contained herein did not effect my Motorhome. I can only say you would have thought they would have found the fault pre production or, at least, admit the fault afterwards.
userTracker
Posted: 17 September 2008 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


And is if the judder ain't enough the tight fisted bu##ars don't even give you a spare wheel any more - although you can pay for one - but heaven knows where you can store it?
userAndyStothert
Posted: 17 September 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Greetings all,
We've been blissfully computer-less for the best part of a week and it's given me a little time to assess my part in all of this, and whether it is worth me keep buzzing around the monster which is Fiat.
And I was also hoping for some good news from Fiat as one of the senior managers at Fiat UK told me three weeks ago that he hoped to have some good news for UK Fiat owners within three weeks.
This was one reason why I haven't been really pushing the T shirt event for the NEC - as I really believed that Fiat were in the throes of sorting out an arrangement similar to that being offered by Peugeot.
That particular senior manager is back in the office tomorrow so hopefully I can find out if we have any need to start printing the Tee shirts.
However I'm not sure there will be enough volunteers to wear them where it counts - for several reasons.
Firstly the offer of a solution (lower ratio reverse gear) from Peugeot once the new gerabox is put into production in January means that (understandably to a certain extent) that the Peugeot owners think it is all sorted out.
Secondly (and again understandable) many of the Fiat owners also think that the 'battle' has been morally won and that Fiat will inevitably follow Peugeots' lead, so they feel that a 'let it develop' attitude is now appropriate.
Thirdly half of 'em claim to be in Spain.
But fourthly, as most of these vans are owned by, shall we say, the more mature and least outrageous section of society imaginable, the thought of 'Direct Action' seems to fill them with dread.
And again you can see why. Not all are as demented as Clive and I.
Everybody says they will buy one (back to the Tee shirts) but wearing it in the right place at the right time is what matters, and if there aren't enough folk willing to do that there is no point me going to the trouble of getting them printed and posted.
But we will see - I'm going to see what Fiat say, then consult with the list of 160 odd owners I have to see what they think.
The otheraffecte owners (held on lists with MMM and also I think, the the Motorcaravanners club) are outside of my reach.
I'll let everyone know what Fiat have to say - but I suspect it will be nothing - as has happened in Italy, but where they are to start fitting the modified gearboxes to those who have shouted loudest. But only them.
Whichever way this breaks Fiat are NOT going to do a recall - that is for sure.
usercolin
Posted: 17 September 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Your right about some people not wanting to take action, was talking to a Fiat owner about month ago, his van judders, he is aware of these threads on forums, when I asked what dealer said, he told me he had not complained but was waiting to see what happens and if a recall is made
userTracker
Posted: 17 September 2008 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


One chap I spoke to at Shepton Mallet told me that his juddered but he was afraid to complain to his dealer as it might impact further on the value of his already (he felt) devalued investment.

I can understand that point of view but the trouble with burying your head in the sand is that it leaves yer bum very exposed!

We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel.

Talk about the Holy Trinity!

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-17 9:17 PM
userdiydoolittle
Posted: 17 September 2008 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 33
25
Location: UK


As a long time (still unresolved leaker!!) and an unknown judderer, one year in dispute and therefore unable to drive vehicle, now on the brink of litigation (in court by end of year!) All I can reasonably add is, as yet after at least 18 months of acknowledging the scuttlegate problem it is still an issue. Vans are still being sold without recalls and leaking like a sieve. This in a vehicle which is the subject of a safety recall. It is for that reason I do not hold out much hope of a fix on juddergate any time soon!
userAbb
Posted: 17 September 2008 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
2525
Location: W.Midland


Tracker - 2008-09-17 9:16 PM


We will be at Pickering this weekend and I will again tell anyone I get the chance to about the combined triple whammy 'Perils of Sevel' - water ingress - judder - no spare wheel.

Talk about the Holy Trinity!


The spare wheel saga is not just confined to Fiat. I've just bought a new Rapido on a Merc. It has no spare wheel. Just a lousy small conpressor and a can of some chimical to use in an emergency.
I did'nt even notice that the spare wheel was missing till the debate in this forum. When I checked, of course it was too late to force the dealer to supply one.
usersteamer
Posted: 18 September 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 18



Having been keeping an eye on what goes on here , last week i had a chance conversation with a fellow engineer who changed from caravan to motorhome in last few years , he has experienced no judders at all & having done several thousand miles to boot , neither of us can really fathom this out - are we back to the vehicle balance factor ?.

anyway - spare wheels , i not got one - can they be sourced along with chassis bits & retrofitted easily , i personally don't like the compressor gizmo ( perhaps old fashioned ! ) , have looked under my van & there seems to be plenty of room & holes for attacmments .

Steamer
usermike 202
Posted: 18 September 2008 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Andy and fellow/potential owners,
Just the act of printing the T- shirts will create the element of uncertainty for Fiat etc., OK so some of us will be in Spain but once the T-shirts are printed and distributed, they will not wear out and be useless after NEC.
There are lots of other Club rallies, other National shows where the word can be spread. Businesses call it Networking. One person sees a T-shirt, asks what it is about, conversation tales place, they tell another and before you know it a Snowball effect has taken place. Not all Owners even know that this forum exists, but all Motorhomers love to chat. Look at what Tracker achieved without a T-shirt, now add the T-shirt and Bingo a ready made ice breaker. " Whats the T-shirt about" - then off we go chapter and verse with emotion, which the forum cannot reproduce.

So Andy, you have had a good idea, dont let less than 100 at the NEC stop you, please get them printed, I am sure most of the M/H community. will support you any way we can
userrowley
Posted: 18 September 2008 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 102
100
Location: Chesterfield


I am not sure that the lack of a spare wheel is entirely a Fiat fault. It may be more to do with the converters as my Adria Twin has one.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 September 2008 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Well, I've spoken to the only man at Fiat who talks any sense (Steve Barker, the chassis supply manager) and he assures me that something positive will be worked out by Fiat for current owners. I have no reason to distrust Mr Barker as he has been absolutely straight with everybody from the beginning, so I suppose this is better news than previously.
BUT, with Fiat being such a slippery autocratic organisation where nothing is said or done without Fiat HQ in Italy OK-ing it there is still no official comment from Fiat.
Next week we will see whether they are prepared to say that there is an issue which needs resolving.
Fiat say they will get back to me 'soon' with some news, but so far...........

userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 19 September 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


As an interesting addition to this debate, i recently discovered from a ducato van owner, that the basic van judders as well! So any excuse the owners are given such as 'it isnt built to be a motorhome' is unfounded, as the commercial van suffers with the same fault, confirming the fact that it is mechanical/design error!
usermike 202
Posted: 20 September 2008 10:14 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Andy, I hope your Fiat man is good and true, but as you say Fiat UK has its hands tied by Fiat Italy.
As a projet manager and If I was running Fiat, then on hearing about your scheme with the T-shirts at the NEC, I would use all delaying tactics to stop the adverse publicity at such a public event. Fiat Italy may be useing and stringing your contact along with mis-information.
A project timeline should show the point at which, you/we will be too late.
1. Get money from owners, 2. Place the order, 3 Receive T-shirts, 4 Pack and post.
It is only 15 ish working days to the show, so take into account the time for your man to give you an answer then FIAT HAVE WON - WE have LOST a golden opportunity.
So why not print the T-shirts and let us buy them - If Fiat come clean then we dont use them, we just keep them as a souvenir. I am sure no one will consider it a waste of money.

Regards Mike
usermick&ann
Posted: 20 September 2008 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 17

Location: Bedfordshire


I am in total agreement with Mick 202 comments Andy get the ''T'' shirts on sale
userTracker
Posted: 20 September 2008 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


I am pleased to report two very successful days of spreading the word at Pickering and an even better success of couple of really irritated salesmen who will, with luck, mention it to their bosses who might in turn, with luck, complain to Fiat?

We live in hope.

On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?

Edited by Tracker 2008-09-20 7:29 PM
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 20 September 2008 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


Tracker - 2008-09-20 7:26 PM

..........On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?..........


I doubt it tracker - there are hundreds of us out there who had a dream and couldn't see past the decor the first time around - most salesmen will never illuminate the prospective customer with 'side' issues such as this fatal design flaw, inadequate payload or even law breaking issues such as a vehicle that the prospective buyer cannot drive on his/her licence.

This and other forums are essential for such people but, again, most will not find them until after the event.

David
userRayjsj
Posted: 20 September 2008 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


I can see this forum being filled with letters from poor 'innocents' for years to come about failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.
Does 'Customer satisfaction' mean nothing at Fiat ??
All the old jokes come to mind ' Fix it Again Tony' ' Fix it Again Tomorrow'.

'Don't Touch them with a Bargepole' or 'They don't Do 'Backwards'
Would make good slogans for the T-shirts ??? under an official Fiat Badge
Sod the litigation !
Is this going to be the worst kept secret in Motorhoming ?
Sorry friend,but their second -hand value is ALREADY affected.
userkontiki
Posted: 20 September 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 111
100


At the Shepton show I asked any salesman that offered to help about the 'judder problem' some of the answers:

What judder
Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals
Bad driving
Driving style
If there is a problem Fiat will fix it
It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing
It's only a problem reversing on steep hills (unfortunately we live in Wales)

I don't know if I've done the right thing but I have bought a van based on the Renault Master so I don't know what problems I'm in for. I did see on the Renault site that they give a 3 year warranty but when I rang Renault UK I was told first of all the warranty was from the date of conversion not registration & it was only 2 years on a motorhome conversion I'm kicking myself for not finding out the full information before I bought.
usermyshell
Posted: 21 September 2008 12:39 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 135
10025
Location: Tarleton Lancashire


Hi Andy
Just received this months edition of the Camping & Caravaning Club magazine, in the Tech Talk section compiled by Barry Norris, the first question is regarding juddergate on a Fiat, but Barry answered the question quoting Peugeot's solution to this problem, however the last sentence is interesting "Fiat is hoping to announce its solution shortly".
Is this a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, or is a just a Fiat customer service pratt trying to find his way out using a flashlight ?

Get the T-shirts printed, I'll buy one off you.

Phil

useremmbeedee
Posted: 21 September 2008 8:48 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 89
252525
Location: Redditch Autoroller 200 (Ford Transit 2200)


Rayjsj - 2008-09-20 9:07 PM

failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.

What is the problem with the previous gearbox? I've not heard about this before & because of the judder on the current version am considering the previous model.
userrupert123
Posted: 21 September 2008 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


emmbeedee - 2008-09-21 8:48 AM

Rayjsj - 2008-09-20 9:07 PM

failing gearboxes on 'Prize-winning' Sevel vehicles, Just like the 'Failing 5th Gear' on the previous chassis.

What is the problem with the previous gearbox? I've not heard about this before & because of the judder on the current version am considering the previous model.


Michael, every M/H base vehicle on the market has had a problem at some point. If you look at any car forum on the internet it is full of problems, that is the nature of forums. Any problem with a previous model will have been sorted out, one advantage of buying secondhand. I note the Sevel portion of the M/H market is now 75% and people like Hymer are adding this base to model ranges that did not have them in the past, the M/H industry obviously has faith in them. Now Fiat have to sort out the owners who have problems with their current vehicle and I have no doubt that eventually they will. The situation is a bad one if you have a problem but most do not and are happy with their vans.
userlibby
Posted: 21 September 2008 2:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


Rupert suggests every M/H has had a problem in the past, I don't doubt that but I based my vehicle selection on forum comments and the types that ARE NOT well advertised in the for sale columns. In the past my comments have not been welcome regarding FIAT.

Just because a large number of an item is produced does not automatically qualify it as being a 'good' product . I'm a realist and will avoid FIAT even more in the future.
userargyler
Posted: 21 September 2008 3:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Having a look around

Posts: 37
25
Location: Isle of Bute


A piece in the Caravan Club Magazine this month and also the latest Caravan and Camping Club magazine says that Peugeot have at last owned up to the problem. Existing vans can have their electronics reset to give more torque lower down. New gearboxes will be supplied with lower reverse gear for motorhomes. No mention of recalls though or who pays for any of this.
userrupert123
Posted: 21 September 2008 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


libby - 2008-09-21 2:44 PM

Rupert suggests every M/H has had a problem in the past, I don't doubt that but I based my vehicle selection on forum comments and the types that ARE NOT well advertised in the for sale columns. In the past my comments have not been welcome regarding FIAT.

Just because a large number of an item is produced does not automatically qualify it as being a 'good' product . I'm a realist and will avoid FIAT even more in the future.


My bad way of putting things. I meant every manufacturer has had problems, not every M/H. Types not advertised are types that have not sold in the first place, of course there are more Fiats advertised, there are more Fiat based vehicles sold than the rest put together and have been for some years now, so it follows their are more secondhand ones. When large numbers are produced and continue to be so it usually means it is a good product, otherwise they would not sell. Why on earth would the major producers of M/H's continue to increase their use of Fiat if they had no confidence in the product. Now I fully understand that anyone who follows this forum will be wary about buying a Fiat based van without doing a reverse it up a hill test, I would, but if I was in the market for a new van now I would not wish to restrict myself to a tiny portion of the market. I suspect all those saying 'would not buy a Fiat' have no intention anyway of buying a new van in the immediate future.
userlibby
Posted: 21 September 2008 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


What are the Italians good at, wine yes, pasta yes, the WWII 'two man' submarines, racing cars, Nobile the airship pilot who flew Amundsen to the North Pole, (if I remember correct) and religion I suppose, but cannot think of much more. In general their military vehicles were not that brilliant.

I believe the large production of FIAT M/H vehicles (and others) derives partly from an expanding population and, what (or rather who) is behind their industry? Its been suggested allegedley that the Mafia have a high stake in the country's well being, which in turn also filters through to the USA!

Listening to recent mishandling of the US financial system one may question, and who is behind that? FIAT finance is worldwide.

Will they admit a wrong doing, NEVER.

FIAT have to produce, make no mistake, its as simple as that!! If the product is less than perfect, no matter just keep making it.

And why do they sell, because the agents get rewards plus FIAT UK keep importing them and unfortunately so many UK people are 'loyal' customers
which in effect means like supermarkets they will continue to buy regardless.

I'm never loyal, I buy fuel, food, travel, and all items from the most convenient store I can find.

That's my Sunday rant done. What cost the T shirts?
userdavid lloyd
Posted: 21 September 2008 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1825
100050010010010025
Location: Guisborough Cleveland - 2013 Autosleeper Worcester


Tracker - 2008-09-20 7:26 PM

I am pleased to report two very successful days of spreading the word at Pickering and an even better success of couple of really irritated salesmen who will, with luck, mention it to their bosses who might in turn, with luck, complain to Fiat?

We live in hope.

On the down side we have seen a lot of new vans with sold signs on the windows - hope they know what they are all doing?


Managed to visit the show today (sunday) and pleased that it seems to have gone well - especially with fair weather.

Over heard a couple admiring a new Fiat van conversion and wondering why it seemed so cheap compared to others on the show field - I offered one very good reason and they shot a worried look in each others' direction before walking away with an appreciative and relieved air about them to look at the range of second hand vehicles for sale.

David
userMelvin
Posted: 21 September 2008 6:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


I have just returned from a two week break in the New Forest, at 1900 miles my vibration is becoming worse, on level tarmac my motorhome judder violetely. On two occasion I had to reverse on the pitch, following both occasion I had to pay a visit to the Fiat dealer to repair the reversing lights, camera, cruise control and switch of the dash warning lights.

The dealer was excellent, they told me they have raised the matter with Fiat, but they are not listening, and stand a better chance if I complain myself ?

However they informed me the coachbuilder were paying less than £5000.00 for the Fiat powertrain, I am assuming they are now paying a lot less. Am I right in thinking this may be the root of the problem
usermike 202
Posted: 21 September 2008 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Melvin, when I questioned the extra cost of an Auto-sleeper on a Ford as opposed to Fiat, I was told that Ford will not discount as they had a ready market for a good product. As opposed to Fiats selling/supply strategy.

Have not heard from Andy lately re the NEC protest.
REALLY do we want to miss this opportunity ?
I know it will be a lot of hard work for you Andy, but Please, Please, when are the T-shirts going to become available???. Happy to send money up front before T-shirts are even printed.

Mike
usercolin
Posted: 21 September 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


kontiki - 2008-09-20 9:29 PM

At the Shepton show I asked any salesman that offered to help about the 'judder problem' some of the answers:

What judder
Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals
Bad driving
Driving style
If there is a problem Fiat will fix it
It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing
It's only a problem reversing on steep hills(unfortunately we live in Wales)

I don't know if I've done the right thing but I have bought a van based on the Renault Master so I don't know what problems I'm in for. I did see on the Renault site that they give a 3 year warranty but when I rang Renault UK I was told first of all the warranty was from the date of conversion not registration & it was only 2 years on a motorhome conversion I'm kicking myself for not finding out the full information before I bought.


Can't remember the details about Renault warranty, but think if you pm Mel E you may get answers.
The Renault IMO has a much better driving position, at least it suits me, so if the layout is what you want then it's ok.

but lets consider some of the salesmen comments
'What Judder'- I'll give benifet of dought and say ignorant of product being sold.
'Blown out of all proportion by one or two individuals'- how many hundreds of complains so far?
'Bad driving/Driving style'- when Fiat drivers test for defect they don't say 'no judder' they say 'within limits' so even they can't drive them.
'If there is a problem Fiat will fix it'- no official word from Fiat yet.
'It happens with all heavy vehicles when reversing'-on my 'test track' where two out of the three juddered I can reverse two road cranes with no judder, they are considerbly heavier than the Fiat.
'It's only a problem reversing on steep hills- My 'test track' is a mild grassy slope which is often encountered at camp sites.


Edited by colin 2008-09-21 9:59 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 22 September 2008 8:40 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Colin, a friend of mine has a Knaus/Renault 06 reg and he wrote to Renault and got the warranty extended to 3 years. Am meeting him in Spain in two weeks - will post details as soon as I can get to WiFi probably around 5/6 Oct If you send me your E-mail will send info direct + post it on forum. He loves the Renault base,No judders and regularly gets 30 mpg touring.
Regards
Mike
userMelvin
Posted: 22 September 2008 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK




Just got off the phone with Fiat Justin Westnedge, we had an intresting conversation regarding the revs judder, as usual he is none comital. He apparently is awaiting a reply to the situation from Fiat Italy this week, he is aware of Pugeot response, I wonder ?
usermike 202
Posted: 22 September 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Si DOMANI or DOPPO DOMANI, tomorrow or the next day.
Getting closer to the NEC, lets (Fiat) delay a bit more then we (Fiat) will not have to deal with a T-shirt demo at a major show. How many times has it been next week, just a few more days, possibly an answer soon. Look at Fiat(Ferrari in F1) they get away with all sorts.
Every time a promise is made by Fiat to make a statement they do - BUT it is always the same " Will get back soon".
Am I getting pi**ed off, getting paranoid ? yes!!.
Every one is waiting, but nothing is happening. In the end we will all get fed up and give up and that is what Fiat want - after all when you stop banging your head against a brick wall it stops hurting.
Frustrated
usercolin
Posted: 22 September 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Answer to the t-shirt problem seems simple to me, someone (andy or whoever) makes a template, those that want to wear supply email for template to be sent to, then buy t-shirt, and iron on kits from pcworld? get this sorted now and can be left till last minute if nessasary. T-shirts can be brought cheap, transfers from pcworld are £12 for 10?
userbob M
Posted: 22 September 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Liking what I've found

Posts: 40
25


Hi Kontiki,
There was a thread on Renault Master Warranty by a Mike Chapman posted on the 30th October 2007 which deals with this subject
I picked up on this thread on the 30/05/2008 and started an investigation into my warranty.
My vehicle a Renault based Dethleff was registered new to me on the 03/11/2007 and collected on the 21/11/2007 from dealers Lazy Days.
I presumed I had 2 years warranty.
No, the base vehicle was delivered to Dethleffs on the 29/11/2005 and that was when the warranty started. 8 days after I took delivery the 2 year service was due??.
I have had to send a copy of the registration to Lazy Days who then forwarded it on to Germany who kick started the warranty from the date of registration (03/11/2007) and I now have a 2 years warranty.
The 3rd year extension I was led to believe (Renault Service 0800 525150) I could obtain by sending several papers to Renault UK at Rickmansworth.
The reply came back last week,No.
Another phone number was given with this letter Renault Information Services 0800 525150.
You do not state wether your chosen vehicle is a UK conversion or continental.
I may be wrong but I believe the 3rd year is to compensate buyers of foreign vans who have lost out on a few months of warranty and not UK vehicles.
I found the whole deal very unsatisfactory.
The Renault vehicle is very pleasing and if I had the 3rd year I would be surprised if I used it.
Sorry if this is disrupting the Fiat thread.
userClive
Posted: 23 September 2008 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


They don't make "T" shirts big enough for me!!

How about a couple of dozen A0 sized boards on poles listing all the brassed off Fiat owners. If we all stand around the Fiat stand with these it might have the required whatsit??



Edited by Clive 2008-09-23 4:50 PM
usermichele
Posted: 23 September 2008 4:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


50005000500100100100100
Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Actually that aint half a bad idea all the names listed on the board
userfred grant
Posted: 23 September 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


freds back from is escapades, but wheres andy me ansums. ope e aint bin jetted off to italy? us may ave to sell t-shirts to raise the ransom money.

f&a
usermike 202
Posted: 24 September 2008 1:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Good idea about the boards with names on, but how do you get the signs past security and how long will the organisers allow you to stand round the Fiat stand. I am sure Fiat will complain and say that protests were not part of their contract and payment for the stand.
However T-shirts are worn under coats which can be removed once inside and who is going to ask a lady to disrobe and remove the offending garment. After all T-shirts with logos are pretty normal casual wear.
A previous post suggested that the Mafia were involved with Fiat, havn't seen any posts from Andy lately, hope he hasn't been got at.
usercolin
Posted: 24 September 2008 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Clive at NEC?



(sandwich-board-man-ll40.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments sandwich-board-man-ll40.jpg (29KB - 582 downloads)
userfred grant
Posted: 25 September 2008 7:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


were is u andy, all is forgiven my luvver.

panickinfred
userMel B
Posted: 25 September 2008 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


You don't need pre-printed T-shirts especially as time is short. Go and buy a cheap T-shirt from a charity shop, Asda or wherever and a nice thick permanent marker pen. Then scrawl your 'message' on the T-shirt (make sure you put a newspaper inside first to stop the ink going through!) and it's done. Failing that, if any of you chaps are 'fit' (as in have a nice body) just get a non-permanent marker and get someone to write the message direct on to you, you can then do your version of the Chippendales ... just make sure you keep your pants on (unless of course you are really, really, 'fit'!!!!! ).

usermike 202
Posted: 26 September 2008 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


The thread seems to have gone very quiet, with everyone waiting for the GREAT Fiat announcement. BUT Fiat, just like the well informed villain " NO COMMENT" is the reply to any questions asked.
So its well done to the poker players at Fiat, they used their stalling tactics to good effect and called our bluff. Too late for the T-shirts now.
Still maybee Elstree Studios could make a "Carry on Juddering" film. Not a joking matter but where does this situation go now.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 September 2008 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I've been waiting for Fiat to get back to me and we now have a very weak written assurance that a limited number of vehicles have a fault which they are investigating and that they will contact this limited number of motorhome owners who have this 'juddering' when the solution they are working on is available.
The bosses at Fiat UK now say that Fiat will honour it committments to the owners of these vehicles (the owners who have complained) and that the matter will be resolved.
I can't tell everything because much of it was 'off the record' but I'm now a lot happier about our own selfish prospects.
We are just going to have to wait until the new gearbox is thoroughly tested (presently happening - unlike the last one) and see what happens in January.
What this does leave, besides a very nasty taste in the mouth and a lot of wasted time and aggro pursuing it, is the sad fact that there will be some very expensive repair bills in the future for innocent folk who buy one of these vehicles which hasn't been modified with the new lower ratio reverse gear.
But until my van has been fixed I now intend to keep my head (mainly) down.



Edited by AndyStothert 2008-09-26 12:50 PM
userrossko
Posted: 26 September 2008 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Liking what I've found

Posts: 64
2525


Pleased to say as one of the early complainers that we have received a letter from Fiat this morning advising that we are one of a 'small number of owners' with a juddering problem that they are currently investigating. Once they have found a solution they will contact us again. They haven't said in so many words that it will be fixed but have definitely implied it thank goodness, so we too feel a bit happier.
Letter arrived on our return from the dealers to have a look at our Bolero habitation door which has become more & more difficult to operate. They advised we need a new door as the frame is defective. We are not alone with this problem either apparently!!
At least the sunn is shinig & a good weekend forecast for most
userItexuk
Posted: 26 September 2008 5:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 131
10025
Location: Somerset. Mobilvetta P81 2007


But until my van has been fixed I now intend to keep my head (mainly) down.

After all your shouting and screaming, it looks like you are now looking after your own. Sounds like you have been bought off Andy and Fiat have won.
usermike 202
Posted: 26 September 2008 6:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


I was told that Swift had a faulty batch of these Bolero doors, but that Swift did not have any means of identifying the vehicles fitted with the defective doors. So much for Swift quality control and traceability.
It is a case of waiting for the customer to find the fault. My Bolero door flew open on the move on several occasions, eventually I had to tie it shut in Spain and abandon my holiday. Could not lock it. So until you get it repaired just be aware that it could pop open and god forbid someone fall out or a passer by get hit.
usercolin
Posted: 26 September 2008 7:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


mike 202 - 2008-09-26 6:00 PM

I was told that Swift had a faulty batch of these Bolero doors, but that Swift did not have any means of identifying the vehicles fitted with the defective doors. So much for Swift quality control and traceability.
It is a case of waiting for the customer to find the fault. My Bolero door flew open on the move on several occasions, eventually I had to tie it shut in Spain and abandon my holiday. Could not lock it. So until you get it repaired just be aware that it could pop open and god forbid someone fall out or a passer by get hit.

Have you contacted VOSA? as doors 'flying open' when on the move are a definate safety issue, they may then have to recall all possibly affected vans to check and if nessasary fix, of cause any responsable company who valued their reputation for quality would do this volantarly.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 26 September 2008 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Bought off by Fiat?

The whole point of the exercise, from the beginning, was to get Fiat to fix these vehicles. Look back to the very beginning.
They are now developing the means to do that. The mission wasn't to destroy Fiat but just to get them to look after us customers who have concerns about our individual vans. If they now say they will sort them out then to keep having a go will only serve to further destroy my personal life and with very little added effect on getting Fiat to sort it out.
It could be said that I'm whimping out a bit, and to some extent it could be true, but to be honest I feel that I have managed to raise public awareness of this damaging defect.
But for personal reasons (getting on with my work basically) I do need to put this on the back burner until we see whether Fiat do what they say they will do.
Sorry if that is seen as being 'bought off' but believe me, this is not the case, and I will still be having a dig where applicable.
usericdsun
Posted: 26 September 2008 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 85
252525
Location: Worcs


Itexuk - 2008-09-26 5:55 PM

After all your shouting and screaming, it looks like you are now looking after your own. Sounds like you have been bought off Andy and Fiat have won.


A tad unfair given the effort that Andy and others have put in on this issue on a lot of peoples behalf, not all of it in the public domain, if you have this problem on your MH I'd be interested to see what your contribution has been in helping others get a solution hopefully.

The need for Fiat to get a fix was always the goal, at present they have responded with a small admission that they recognize the issue and are working on a fix, hopefully that will be imminent, so as we all have another life away from Fiat Judders it's time to wait a little longer and see what evolves.

Chris
userMelvin
Posted: 27 September 2008 8:19 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


All of us belive Andy has work worked very hard on our behalf, with little or no help from the rest of us. We should be praising Andy and his collegues. not critising them.

Hopefully, Fiat will find a solution to this problem, and this should be the end of the matter.

userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 27 September 2008 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


A big thank you should be extended Andy for all his effort on the reverse shudder. I personally would like to thank him and any else who has made positive moves towards getting the vehicles rectified under warranty.

Now I don't know if I lost the plot somewhere along the line, (senior moment) . In case any one has problems with the water ingress via the scuttle overflow, this is now an officially accepted defect and as such will be rectified by your main fiat dealer. Not sure about the motorhome suppliers as I take my Suntor direct to the main Fiat Iveco Truck dealers. The work involves a full days labour and several days at the dealers for the sealants to dry.

The dealers are aware of the reverse shudder, in my case very slight but still noticeble when reversing on to a slope as experienced by my wife ar Blackpool south last week, the fiat Garage says they can't do anything until Fiat authorise the work.

Here's a question, is it acceptable to report to the Fiat garage, or are you addressing the problem direct to Fiat Italy. In which case to whom do you speak?
well done Andy

On a positive note in my humble opinion, the Ducato 100 X250 is far superior to the competition, It offers a powerfull yet quiet excellent ride , road holding ability and so comfortable and easy to drive. It offers a comfortable environment for your Motorhoming travels both driver and passenger and excellent economy. Our average MPG is running at 36 mpg. trev eden
usercolinfrier
Posted: 27 September 2008 11:19 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
A posting machine

Posts: 373
1001001002525
Location: Alcaucin Malaga Spain


Hi
I would like to add my personal thanks to Andy for all his efforts I am sure we would not have got this far without his hard work.
It it now up to individuals to take up ther case with Fiat and make sure they get on the list for gearbox clutch repairs/mods.
I have just returned fro GB while there I went with a friend who wants to buy a new motorhome to a dealer near West Wittering (no names).
I spoke to the sales man and said we were looking for a non juddering vehicle they said they did not understand what I meant after explaining they said they did remember 1 case they had encountered.The story then developed and clearly they were aware of the problem but said "We e mail all chassis numbers of vehicles sold to Fiat who check if the vehicle has the suspect gearbox" well beleive that if you will????
Thanks again Andy well done.
Colin Frier
usercolinfrier
Posted: 27 September 2008 11:19 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
A posting machine

Posts: 373
1001001002525
Location: Alcaucin Malaga Spain


Hi
I would like to add my personal thanks to Andy for all his efforts I am sure we would not have got this far without his hard work.
It it now up to individuals to take up ther case with Fiat and make sure they get on the list for gearbox clutch repairs/mods.
I have just returned fro GB while there I went with a friend who wants to buy a new motorhome to a dealer near West Wittering (no names).
I spoke to the sales man and said we were looking for a non juddering vehicle they said they did not understand what I meant after explaining they said they did remember 1 case they had encountered.The story then developed and clearly they were aware of the problem but said "We e mail all chassis numbers of vehicles sold to Fiat who check if the vehicle has the suspect gearbox" well beleive that if you will????
Thanks again Andy well done.
Colin Frier
usermike 202
Posted: 27 September 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Yes well done Andy for all of your efforts. Shame about the T-shirts they would allow us all to belong to an exclusive club.
Total Guy Thanks
Mike
usermike 202
Posted: 27 September 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Yes well done Andy for all of your efforts. Shame about the T-shirts they would allow us all to belong to an exclusive club.
Total Guy Thanks
Mike
usermike 202
Posted: 27 September 2008 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Sorry guys excited finger on the button
usercatinou
Posted: 28 September 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Thanks from us too Andy. Great work.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 29 September 2008 5:43 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


This is getting embarassing - can you all please revert to the insulting and abusive behaviour that was dished out to me when all this started.
And it isn't necessarily all sorted yet either.
Meanwhile after getting a little bit of solace from Fiat I'm not sure it is enough to feel totally secure. A letter saying something like 'yes Mr Stothert, we acknowledge fully that your Fiat Ducato has a fault which requires fixing by us, and we will do it' would have been very welcome.
And the same for everyone else too, although they of course have easier names to spell, and thus should be even more easily forthcoming.
And that post about the Lake District - tell 'em not to go, it's too good for you lot.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-09-29 5:45 PM
usercolin
Posted: 29 September 2008 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


ok, bog off you
userrupert123
Posted: 29 September 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


AndyStothert - 2008-09-29 5:43 PM

This is getting embarassing - can you all please revert to the insulting and abusive behaviour that was dished out to me when all this started.
And it isn't necessarily all sorted yet either.
Meanwhile after getting a little bit of solace from Fiat I'm not sure it is enough to feel totally secure. A letter saying something like 'yes Mr Stothert, we acknowledge fully that your Fiat Ducato has a fault which requires fixing by us, and we will do it' would have been very welcome.
And the same for everyone else too, although they of course have easier names to spell, and thus should be even more easily forthcoming.
And that post about the Lake District - tell 'em not to go, it's too good for you lot.


I tried to be insulting and abusive on several occasions Andy but could not get anyone else to agree, so gave up. Must do better so will have a think about it and try to come up with something. Pity about the 'T' shirts but that was never going to get off the ground was it.
userrupert123
Posted: 29 September 2008 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


AndyStothert - 2008-09-29 5:43 PM

This is getting embarassing - can you all please revert to the insulting and abusive behaviour that was dished out to me when all this started.
And it isn't necessarily all sorted yet either.
Meanwhile after getting a little bit of solace from Fiat I'm not sure it is enough to feel totally secure. A letter saying something like 'yes Mr Stothert, we acknowledge fully that your Fiat Ducato has a fault which requires fixing by us, and we will do it' would have been very welcome.
And the same for everyone else too, although they of course have easier names to spell, and thus should be even more easily forthcoming.
And that post about the Lake District - tell 'em not to go, it's too good for you lot.


I tried to be insulting and abusive on several occasions Andy but could not get anyone else to agree, so gave up. Must do better so will have a think about it and try to come up with something. Pity about the 'T' shirts but that was never going to get off the ground was it.
userrupert123
Posted: 29 September 2008 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


AndyStothert - 2008-09-29 5:43 PM

This is getting embarassing - can you all please revert to the insulting and abusive behaviour that was dished out to me when all this started.
And it isn't necessarily all sorted yet either.
Meanwhile after getting a little bit of solace from Fiat I'm not sure it is enough to feel totally secure. A letter saying something like 'yes Mr Stothert, we acknowledge fully that your Fiat Ducato has a fault which requires fixing by us, and we will do it' would have been very welcome.
And the same for everyone else too, although they of course have easier names to spell, and thus should be even more easily forthcoming.
And that post about the Lake District - tell 'em not to go, it's too good for you lot.


I tried to be insulting and abusive on several occasions Andy but could not get anyone else to agree, so gave up. Must do better so will have a think about it and try to come up with something. Pity about the 'T' shirts but that was never going to get off the ground was it.
userrupert123
Posted: 29 September 2008 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Oh dear seem to have pressed the submit button three times, sorry about that.
userfred grant
Posted: 29 September 2008 10:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


i as pressed alices submit button ten times rupert my biddy, but it don seem to make much difference an i don seem to be gettin anywhere.

f
userClive
Posted: 29 September 2008 11:01 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Or this?



(FIAT GEARBOX.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FIAT GEARBOX.jpg (23KB - 393 downloads)
userlibby
Posted: 30 September 2008 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


Has anyone ever met our Fred?
userPSHORT
Posted: 30 September 2008 9:41 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone
enlighten me.
1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since
done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better
fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?
2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual
replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.
My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga
usercolin
Posted: 30 September 2008 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


PSHORT - 2008-09-30 9:41 AM

I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone
enlighten me.
1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since
done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better
fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?
2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual
replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.
My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga

It seems that the temp scuttle fix is still just that, some 'new' vans still have same problem, but this could be old stock, who knows? (fiat possibly)
As for gearbox, what reply have you had, some seem to be told it is normal, some have been told theirs is unsualy bad. In view of Fiats actions so far I dought they will be offering a new gearbox unless you kick up a fuss, and this appears to be where it's not getting anywhere, there appears to be a lot of owners who are sitting back and seeing what happens.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 30 September 2008 5:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Clive is a cleverer man than me with this infernal computer, but I think I need a copy of that post he concocted.

Today's Fiat news is that two fresh 'Judderers' who have complained to Fiat within the last few days have been treated in a much more agreeable manner by the CustomerCare team.
Instead of the 'get lost there's nowt wrong with it - rev it bit harder' line they are now getting a 'yes we aware of this issue and are seeking a resolution for it'. One even got an apology from the team.
At least it doesn't leave you feeling frustrated and angry, but nobody has heard the words 'Yes, we will fix it' yet.
And it is probably worth Paul holding on for a while to see if the 'new' manual gearbox will reverse a trailer. There are some doubts being expressed by Fiat employees that the new lower reverse gear will be low enough for the very biggest of Ducato motorhomes, but as the only tests have been on 3.5 ton versions this is still an open question. So whether it will be low enough for reversing a loaded trailer nobody seems sure.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-09-30 5:22 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 30 September 2008 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


PSHORT - 2008-09-30 9:41 AM

I am confused on both main faults on the Ducato, can someone
enlighten me.
1) I had the shuttle recall item fixed, but it was a waste of time. I have since
done it myself with the black gooey stuff and Duck Tape. Is there now a better
fix being done by Fiat? ie a new better fitting shuttle or is it still trying just to glue the two bits together with the minimal overlap for connection. If a new and better fix is available are Fiat contacting us?
2) I have complained re the judder, had the van tested by Fiat with the usual
replies we have all had. Do we now just wait or should we contact Fiat 'so-called Customer Service' Incidently I did ask a local commercial Fiat garage twice for a definitive yes or no can the auto box be retro fitted to the 3litre. Never got a reply, was this Fiat I wonder or the garage.
My thanks also with the others for Andy's outstanding efforts in this very sorry saga


The leak has certainly been fixed. My van was delivered in April and does not leak, their is no sign of a 'bodged up job' so guess they have altered something in the design. I am fortunate in not having a vibration in reverse but would think, as Andy has said, you need to keep the pressure on as an individual.
useremmbeedee
Posted: 1 October 2008 12:38 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 89
252525
Location: Redditch Autoroller 200 (Ford Transit 2200)


I got boxed in yesterday by a very large Citroen Relay (white van man). When the driver returned, apologising, I asked about judder in reverse. Oh, yes, does it all the time, especially if you have to reverse up a driveway. This was an 08 reg., he said there other one, an 07, was the first one into this country & juddered just the same or even more. He didn't consider it a major problem, just slip the clutch, he said.
Generally, he loved the van, said he would buy one himself & the older one has now done over 90,000 miles with no major problems or replacements. 5 recalls on it though.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 1 October 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Y'r white van man obviously doesn't use it well loaded or up properly steep hills, as ours has done just over 17,000 miles and is awaiting a 3rd replacement box plus it has also had a new clutch.
Do I need to keep repeating this?
And I'm just one of many who have had to have a clutch or box.
And yes, they are all juddering - because the gear ratio is too high, and if you attempted to drive fowards up a 1 in 6 in second gear (as reverse is nearer second than first) the effect will be broadly similar.
Henry's doesn't judder (as much, or as readily) because the 100 models have a lower final drive ratio than the 120, 130 and 160 models.
In fact Fiat and Peugeot are hoping to get away with just an ECU remap for the few folk who have reported juddering in their 100 based motorhomes.
If you have a juddering 100 and the re-map doesn't cure it then keep complaining.



Edited by AndyStothert 2008-10-01 5:19 PM
userAndy T
Posted: 2 October 2008 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
252525
Location: Chirk, Clwyd, Mooveo 608, 2007. Ducato 100.


And as a 100 five speed owner I wait with interest to see what effect the remap might have on fuel consumption.
Andy.
userRayjsj
Posted: 2 October 2008 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Now (thanks to Andy S.) that we know exactly what the problem is, What were Fiat thinking about (not vehicle design certainly) putting such an unsuitable gearbox/ratio's into what is after all a Commercial Vehicle ?
used for hauling heavy loads AND reversing them....sometimes uphill.
I used to drive Brewery Drays(lorries, not horses) Commer two stroke diesels, even back then in the 60's it could push a full load of Benskins Best, Backwards up a steep Pub carpark to the Cellar Flaps.
When Vehicle design ceases to be an advance on what went before,
those vehicles are destined for the scrapheap.
Oh, and bring back DIY running repairs/servicing too. Too many people are driving around not knowing a thing about what is going on 'Underneath'.
Hope this (long) story has a happy ending, but knowing Fiat....
userBasil
Posted: 2 October 2008 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
2000500


A bit off topic, but, I wouldn't like to be the new purchaser of the Silver X250 based Autocruise Rhythm on a 58 plate but with dealer trade plates in the windows that passed me on the A12 in Essex between Chelmsford and Witham at speeds in excess of 90mph yesterday. The driver cut across from the outside lane to turn off up the slip road and crunched the gears at least twice, made me think of this thread!!

They obviously go well, but I certainly would not want one that has been treated like that by whoever was driving it.
Bas
userpkc
Posted: 3 October 2008 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 812
500100100100


Great post Clive.




(kangoroo2.JPG)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments kangoroo2.JPG (44KB - 408 downloads)
userfred grant
Posted: 3 October 2008 7:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


jumper my *ss!

f
userRayjsj
Posted: 4 October 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


emmbeedee - 2008-10-01 12:38 AM

I asked about judder in reverse. Oh, yes, does it all the time, especially if you have to reverse up a driveway. This was an 08 reg., he said there other one, an 07, was the first one into this country & juddered just the same or even more. He didn't consider it a major problem, just slip the clutch, he said.





He obviously didn't have to pay for the replacement Clutch and possibly the DMF when he eventually burnt it out (probably, not very long away).
If his boss is unlucky JUST out of warranty. We, however have to pay for our repairs, and Clutch's are not usually covered by warranty. This fault DOES need fixing by the Manufacturer and SOON. It's still 'Buyer Beware' out there.
Especially at 'Showtime'. when the 'bargains' flow.
userJeffus
Posted: 4 October 2008 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


steamer - 2008-09-18 7:42 AM

anyway - spare wheels , i not got one - can they be sourced along with chassis bits & retrofitted easily , i personally don't like the compressor gizmo ( perhaps old fashioned ! ) , have looked under my van & there seems to be plenty of room & holes for attacmments .

Steamer


Hi Steamer and everyone,

Just picked up our new Bessacarr E795. I asked for a spare alloy wheel to be fitted before handover. Slung underneath rear of van, very easily retro fitted. Be careful everyone, FIAT'S price . . . . . £875 fitted. So far Swift (God bless 'em) have sent SEVEN to Marquis and all wrong design (you can't write it) at a cost of £2000. Marquis have fitted a steel to keep me going. I had to bite the bullet as we spend a lot of the year in Europe and the thought of no spare and a blow out . . . . doesn't bear thinking about.

Jeffus.
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 5 October 2008 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


5000500050001000100100100100252525
Location: Herefordshire - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


I believe the Bessacarr E795 has an Al-Ko chassis.

If your X250 coachbuilt motorhome has an 'original' Fiat chassis, it may prove more challenging to retro-fit a spare wheel. And, if the motorhome converter has chosen to exploit the freed-up space that's normally occupied by the spare wheel, retro-fitting may well be impossible.
userJeffus
Posted: 5 October 2008 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


Hi Derek,

Yep the E795 has an alko chassis but our "old E794 54 plate" had as well. It came with a spare slung underneath and the new E795 has space to put one as well.

Jeffus.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 5 October 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


I am no longer actively seeking the details of fresh juddereers as we all now know the point is proved and what is wrong with the new Ducatos and Boxers.
BUT they just keep on appearing in my inbox. There must be hundreds of them now, and today I got an email from the very disgruntled owner of a brand new Auto Trail Scout with 3 litre 160 Fiat chassis whose clutch has failed.
And another from a similarly angry owner of an Auto Trail Tracker with 2.3 litre Fiat chassis which is juddering for Grimsby.
Both new, and now we find that Auto Trail have severed their links with Mercedes for a Fiat-only conversion policy.
It can't be a quality decision, You wonder why don't you? Or do you.
userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 5 October 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


I think that in order to get this recognised, you the owners, are going to have to get together as a unit of x hundred people, and take Fiat to court. It will be a ground breaking thing, but the only way you will be heard!

Try and get some media coverage too, i expect mmm could furnish some wise advice on that front.

As far as i can see it, it is the only way forward! This happened on the 206 when owners were clocking up thousands of miles by opening a door, they were initially told 'prove it', well it was after they all got together with a legal case that it was finally admitted and sorted out.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 6 October 2008 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


If push comes to shove, and the new gearbox isn't fitted to our vans some time soon after January (when it is rumoured production will start) then legal action may be the only solution. But at the moment it isn't worth the posibel hassle and expense until we see for sure whether Fiat are determined to abandon their customers when they have the means to rectify the problem - which at the moment they haven't. And until then they will swear white is yellow (lies etc) as they are still manufacturing this vehicle with the same serious fault.
But until they actually give a written undertaking to stand by us existing owners I think we have to keep reminding them that we are still here and still not happy.
If you have a spare moment or two the other forum (motorhomefacts) is worth a look as there are still some eejits on there who can't admit they have bought a duffer.
Quite funny some of it, but not intentionally, and not of the Fred sort.
usermike 202
Posted: 7 October 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


As you say Andy, Fiat have promised ( well as close as you can get) to fix by Jan 09. Are they buying time to get everyone off of their backs. I have spoken to some owners of very new vans with only a few hundred miles on the clock and they are happy, to spread the word of " No judders" so helping Fiat.
What REALLY ANNOYS me are the UK manufacturers and dealers who rely on us buying to keep their families and pay their mortgages. SURELY they should have some loyalty to us as their customers, but NO just keep quiet and rip of any poor sod who does not know about the judder problem.
I feel that Fiat etc should be made aware that the T-shirt campaign goes ahead from February 09, if no action from them is taken and that all thay have done is delay the inevitable bad publicity. Dealers amd manufacturers UK if you monitor this forum then I believe you are living on borrowed time ( UK car sales down 25%) so dont squinney if in the near future you hit hard times.
userMelvin
Posted: 8 October 2008 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Spoke to Fiat customer care yesterday, Justin actually phoned me back ?, apparently next week, all us people with reported problem will be recieving a letter ? funny that, is the a caravan show at birmingham next week.
userArchiesgrandad
Posted: 8 October 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1096
1000252525
Location: The Lot


I can't help wondering why the "Sale of Goods Act" doesn't apply in this case.

Why not go to your supplying dealer and say that the motorhome is not of merchantable quality, and does not perform as it might reasonably be expected to? Under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act it is the supplying dealer who has that responsibility. He sold it to you, he probably told you it was fantastic, and he almost certainly did not tell you that you may not be able to go backwards, it's his problem. What he does to his suppliers is not your problem.
The dealers must have been aware of the problem soon after the first vans were sold, and there can be no room for doubt that they have been aware for some months, so if you bought a van recently you could probably claim that they had misled you, or at least failed to tell you something rather important. After all it is possible to buy a motorhome without being a member of any club , or subscribing to any magazine, and people probably do.

One last thought, please don't say it,s not the dealer's fault. It is, because they made the contract with you, and the prospect of all the main dealers and converters in the UK going bust is probably not in Fiats Business Plan, so they are probably the group that can get Fiat to put things right. Give them a really hard time, and don't be nice to them.

AGD
userMelvin
Posted: 8 October 2008 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK



I contact trading standards in May 2008, a couple of weeks after purchasing, however, because the value is over £5,000.00. Trading Standard could only give me support and their backing, they have advised me to contact a solicitor.

This new motorhome was actually on the dealer forecourt, not an order by myself. I have asked for my money back or a new vehicle I was told NO, and both Fiat and Autorail would support them in a court action. Since complaining the service from the dealer has been very poor.

I have until the middle of November to reject the goods within the 6 month period, if I cannot get a statisfactory solution from Fiat next week, I will reject the goods and name the dealer.
userJeffus
Posted: 8 October 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


Hi guys and gals,

Just been talking to Fiat customer services registering my Ducato X250 for the reverse judder problem (more power to the people). I now have my reference number. A thing came to light maybe not all realise (including me). She was asking for my vehicle details and quoted the manufacturing date which was late 2007 (that's when it arrived at Swift, I think). I said no, no, no, it's a new vehicle, September 2008. Ah! she said you will have to write to Fiat's warranty with a photocopy of your log book details and ask them to update their records for your warranty to start then. At the moment you have just lost 12 months warranty. Be warned people. BTW the lady on customer service was very nice and helpful explaining any queries I had and sounded genuinely sympathetic with the problem we all have.

Jeffus.

Edited by Jeffus 2008-10-08 3:55 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 8 October 2008 3:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Archiesgrandad - 2008-10-08 12:05 PM

I can't help wondering why the "Sale of Goods Act" doesn't apply in this case.

Why not go to your supplying dealer and say that the motorhome is not of merchantable quality, and does not perform as it might reasonably be expected to? Under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act it is the supplying dealer who has that responsibility. He sold it to you, he probably told you it was fantastic, and he almost certainly did not tell you that you may not be able to go backwards, it's his problem. What he does to his suppliers is not your problem.
The dealers must have been aware of the problem soon after the first vans were sold, and there can be no room for doubt that they have been aware for some months, so if you bought a van recently you could probably claim that they had misled you, or at least failed to tell you something rather important. After all it is possible to buy a motorhome without being a member of any club , or subscribing to any magazine, and people probably do.
AGD


If it was this easy a lot would have gone down this route, unfortunetly it is not. Their is certainly a problem out their but as some 75% of current m/h are on this base in various forms, which means tens of thousands, and the complaints are in the few hundred you have to assume the great majority are happy and had never had a problem, I have never had it with mine. If you reject your van you have to prove the point. Now comes the problem, first are you willing to go without your m/h, perhaps for months while it is sorted out. The chances are you will lose anyway and it could cost you thousands. The best way now is probably Andy's, Fiat know about it, so make a lot of noise with them, get a case number. Keep pointing it out to anyone you come across, certainly at the NEC. In the meantime use and enjoy your van and if it breaks you have a warrenty and Fiat rescue.













































































































































Edited by rupert123 2008-10-08 4:00 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 8 October 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Jeffus - 2008-10-08 3:49 PM

Hi guys and gals,

Just been talking to Fiat customer services registering my Ducato X250 for the reverse judder problem (more power to the people). I now have my reference number. A thing came to light maybe not all realise (including me). She was asking for my vehicle details and quoted the manufacturing date which was late 2007 (that's when it arrived at Swift, I think). I said no, no, no, it's a new vehicle, September 2008. Ah! she said you will have to write to Fiat's warranty with a photocopy of your log book details and ask them to update their records for your warranty to start then. At the moment you have just lost 12 months warranty. Be warned people. BTW the lady on customer service was very nice and helpful explaining any queries I had and sounded genuinely sympathetic with the problem we all have.

Jeffus.


This is a strange one the dealer should register the van. Mine certainly did and the warrenty started from the day before I collected it. This was a Swift m/h and in any case Swift do not have a base in stock for that length of time.
userJeffus
Posted: 8 October 2008 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


rupert123 - 2008-10-08 4:06 PM
This is a strange one the dealer should register the van. Mine certainly did and the warrenty started from the day before I collected it. This was a Swift m/h and in any case Swift do not have a base in stock for that length of time.


Hi Rupert,

This is what Fiat customer services told me to do. It would be interesting to see what Swift's turnover of base vehicles is. How do you know what Swift's base stock is? Or is it just an educated guess on your part?

Jeffus.
usercolin
Posted: 8 October 2008 8:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Want to know when base was made? look at moulding dates on plastic parts, this will give indication as manufacturers now use JIT and keep very low stock levels
userlibby
Posted: 8 October 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


It does puzzle me why some of you are so lenient towards FIAT. All they are doing is playing for time, and time, and time, ...........

They know that you will not sue them, that you are too fond of the M/H to go without for a year or more.

It easy for me to say but I would have taken it back and left it, then informed the local newspaper and TV of my doing to get as much publicity as possible, and I WOULD make up a T shirt worded accordingly and visit all the shows I could find.

I'm amazed how some of you are inclined to believe a monster like FIAT.

Last week I submitted a comment on Fiat and the US, but it was removed.

You're all crazy for believing Fiat and their offers!
userlibby
Posted: 8 October 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100




Edited by libby 2008-10-08 8:50 PM
userlibby
Posted: 8 October 2008 8:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100




Edited by libby 2008-10-08 8:50 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 8 October 2008 9:55 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Jeffus - 2008-10-08 5:18 PM

rupert123 - 2008-10-08 4:06 PM
This is a strange one the dealer should register the van. Mine certainly did and the warrenty started from the day before I collected it. This was a Swift m/h and in any case Swift do not have a base in stock for that length of time.


Hi Rupert,

This is what Fiat customer services told me to do. It would be interesting to see what Swift's turnover of base vehicles is. How do you know what Swift's base stock is? Or is it just an educated guess on your part?

Jeffus.


Part guess but have been to Swift and they do not seem to have any spare base units at all. They produce the highest numbers of UK vans by a long way and obviously have some sort of contract with Fiat and a forward ordering system. Your van base would have to have been in stock for over eight months from the dates you give. When you order the van is made for you, their is no backup stock, except what a dealer will have. It is possible that if you bought the van from dealers stock it may have been with the dealer for a long time but will not effect any warrenty. As you must know Swifts warrenty is a very good one, both base and Swifts bits have a three year, although third year has a few exclusions.

Edited by rupert123 2008-10-08 9:57 PM
usercolin
Posted: 9 October 2008 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


But of cause the clutch which appears to have a higher failure rate than gearbox has no warrenty whatsoever so make sure you have a case number, it may give you a chance of payment if you need to spend £1000 on replacing clutch.
userrupert123
Posted: 9 October 2008 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


colin - 2008-10-09 9:23 AM

But of cause the clutch which appears to have a higher failure rate than gearbox has no warrenty whatsoever so make sure you have a case number, it may give you a chance of payment if you need to spend £1000 on replacing clutch.


This is not quite correct, the only part of the clutch not covered is the plate itself and even this will be replaced under certain circumstances. The warrenty states if the clutch plate fails due to normal wear and tear it is not covered, this applies to all other parts that can wear fast, brake pads/tyres for example. If the clutch failed due to a reported problem or failed and was not due to normal wear it would be replaced. It may be up to the individual to argue their case.

Edited by rupert123 2008-10-09 10:10 AM
usercolin
Posted: 9 October 2008 10:51 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


rupert123 - 2008-10-09 10:07 AM

colin - 2008-10-09 9:23 AM

But of cause the clutch which appears to have a higher failure rate than gearbox has no warrenty whatsoever so make sure you have a case number, it may give you a chance of payment if you need to spend £1000 on replacing clutch.


This is not quite correct, the only part of the clutch not covered is the plate itself and even this will be replaced under certain circumstances. The warrenty states if the clutch plate fails due to normal wear and tear it is not covered, this applies to all other parts that can wear fast, brake pads/tyres for example. If the clutch failed due to a reported problem or failed and was not due to normal wear it would be replaced. It may be up to the individual to argue their case.


So how do you account for owners reporting failures after as little as 1800 miles and being charged?
p.s. as I said in earlier post, make sure you have a case number, if the clutch then fails it may give you a better chance of argueing for free replacement

Edited by colin 2008-10-09 11:03 AM
userrupert123
Posted: 9 October 2008 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


colin - 2008-10-09 10:51 AM

rupert123 - 2008-10-09 10:07 AM

colin - 2008-10-09 9:23 AM

But of cause the clutch which appears to have a higher failure rate than gearbox has no warrenty whatsoever so make sure you have a case number, it may give you a chance of payment if you need to spend £1000 on replacing clutch.


This is not quite correct, the only part of the clutch not covered is the plate itself and even this will be replaced under certain circumstances. The warrenty states if the clutch plate fails due to normal wear and tear it is not covered, this applies to all other parts that can wear fast, brake pads/tyres for example. If the clutch failed due to a reported problem or failed and was not due to normal wear it would be replaced. It may be up to the individual to argue their case.


So how do you account for owners reporting failures after as little as 1800 miles and being charged?
p.s. as I said in earlier post, make sure you have a case number, if the clutch then fails it may give you a better chance of argueing for free replacement


I have not the slightest idea can only quote what the Fiat m/h warrenty states. If someone is daft enough to pay for a clutch after 1800 miles it is up to them, that could not be classed as normal wear and tear. Perhaps this is another one like the people being gassed thing, an urban myth. Or do you know a case when this has happened.
userRayjsj
Posted: 9 October 2008 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


So, Rupert(Henry) thinks that the Clutch failures are an 'Urban Myth'
He,He,.... He should meet up with Andy at the show !!, He also thinks that the failures (gearbox and clutch) cover only a tiny minority of X250's 'out there' hauling M/h's around ??
Over this (miserable in the UK) summer, every X250 m/h i saw on sites that i stayed on, I tried to 'chat up' the driver/owner to see what they thought about their new purchase. (with a view to buy one similiar) they all loved the vehicle generally, BUT ALL , even some of the Five speed ones
said that they were 'not easy to reverse up ANY type of incline because of the Shaking/juddering, and they all said , although it was an improvement over the old Fiats/Peugeots, somone had 'got it wrong' when gear ratio's were chosen. Not a scientific test i admit.....but good enough for me. To NOT part with my 'Hard earned Cash' on an X250 unless this problem is FIXED both for new and Second hand vehicles. (written proof on the latter)
until then they (all of them) have a question mark hanging over them.
And buying one would be a bit like putting your Dosh into an Icelandic bank. Not recommended.
userRayjsj
Posted: 9 October 2008 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


a Reprise of Clives Masterpiece.now all we need is a Silkscreen copy onto some tea-shirts.



(FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg (23KB - 351 downloads)
usercatinou
Posted: 9 October 2008 4:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


I have just spoken to a very nice man at Fiat customer services, to get an update on our case - apparently because we have registered our vehicle as having the problem and had it verified by the local Fiat dealership, our case has gone in to the main file - to be notified when there is a general announcement.

He gave me a second reference number to "affiliate" to the original one after I informed him of our problems in Italy last month.

We will now keep Fiat updated of any further developments on our vehicle (hopefully not too many more problems ) to make sure we don't slip through the net. Apparently, when they have an announcement on the issue, all registered owners will be notified "very quickly".

One foot note, he did say that the more detailed information from owners on the problems the stronger case there will be for Fiat to move on with this.
userdshague
Posted: 9 October 2008 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lives on the forums

Posts: 524
500
Location: Sth Yorks IMPERIAL SPORTSHOMES i600


as for stock level of fiat vans and chaises just drive down the MI80 and look at there storage yard there are hundreds of vans .you see them every day being transported to swift ect
usermike 202
Posted: 9 October 2008 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


my swift was delivered to me mar/08 but I found papers that were inadvertantly left in the vehicle to to show that it was built in sept 07. Hence the sulphated vehicle battery. it would not start after 2 days. The warranty however started from the day it was registered.
As for Fiat etc, they wont do a dam thing until it hurts them if at all. After they stopped the T-shirt campaign with a few promises to the right few complainents and everyone else listened. So why bother with helping us all out, as another member said, its one thing saying onother doing ( T -shirts & solicitors).
Just spoken to a guy in spain and he told a tale of tragedy for a UK fiat owner touring in what was eastern europe Europe. lots of faults and he had to pay for the repairs out of his own pocket.
usercolin
Posted: 9 October 2008 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


rupert123 - 2008-10-09 2:50 PM
I have not the slightest idea can only quote what the Fiat m/h warrenty states. If someone is daft enough to pay for a clutch after 1800 miles it is up to them, that could not be classed as normal wear and tear. Perhaps this is another one like the people being gassed thing, an urban myth. Or do you know a case when this has happened.


Maybe you are right, they have found themselves with a new clutch but short of £1000 and decided it must all be some kind of nightmare that they would not have believed possible before buying a Fiat.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 9 October 2008 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Henry,
My my, you are winding folk up again, but we thank you for your clumsy way of expressing yourself as it gives us another opportunity to clearly explain things.
Urban Myth? Well maybe not for I have records of over 30 failed clutches on these vehicles (all 6 speed versions admittedly) and if I have knowledge of 30 how many do think there will be in total?
Fiat and Peugeot now admit in private and in public respectively that there is a general defect in the choice of gear ratio, but the chances of catastrophic failure is still low enough (not many folk habitually reverse up steep hills) that the real risk with these vehicles is an accelerated and accumlated wear on the clutch (because of increase revs and stress to compensate for the high gear ratio) which will show up as as a premature failure, but could still be intrerpreted by Fiat as 'fair wear and tear' as it will simply look like a worn clutch plate.
If you took the trouble to look back through the posts before tapping the keys you will see on thsi forum numerous reports of clutch failures.
Get back on the crags where you know what you're doing, and where we are both more in our comfort zone.
And I forgot to add that after several dozen phone calls with various folk at Fiat recently they are well aware that we aren't going to go away quietly until we get a written promise of a solution for our vehicles.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-10-09 8:45 PM
userrupert123
Posted: 9 October 2008 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


Andy, please would I try and wind people up. However I really wish people would read posts properly and follow the thread.They seem to put their own interpretation on what is said. The post was about warranty and in particuler the clutch. What I said was only the clutch plate itself was not warranted, this is correct. It was also stated that a person had to pay for a clutch after 1800 miles, I doubted this and asked if anyone, including you, know of a case where a clutch had failed at this distance or less and owner had to pay for it, because I do not believe it. I NEVER EVER SAID CLUTCHES HAVE NOT FAILED, yes I am shouting.

As you know perfectly well I agree Fiat are in the wrong but I refuse to fantasize about the whole thing. Still must keep this going as it seems to be going a little quiet of late.

Edited by rupert123 2008-10-09 9:54 PM
usercolin
Posted: 9 October 2008 10:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


rupert123 - 2008-10-09 9:51 PM

Andy, please would I try and wind people up. However I really wish people would read posts properly and follow the thread.They seem to put their own interpretation on what is said. The post was about warranty and in particuler the clutch. What I said was only the clutch plate itself was not warranted, this is correct. It was also stated that a person had to pay for a clutch after 1800 miles, I doubted this and asked if anyone, including you, know of a case where a clutch had failed at this distance or less and owner had to pay for it, because I do not believe it. I NEVER EVER SAID CLUTCHES HAVE NOT FAILED, yes I am shouting.

As you know perfectly well I agree Fiat are in the wrong but I refuse to fantasize about the whole thing. Still must keep this going as it seems to be going a little quiet of late.

HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.
userfred grant
Posted: 9 October 2008 10:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


as you is the only person to report NOT having a problem with your fiat gearbox rupert henry my luvver, av u checked the front of your van to see if it is maybe a mercedees or even sumthing else. people av been known to make a mistake (ask denzil, they is always tellin im is job at the garage) . there is nothin to be ashamed of my biddy (gettin it wrong) but is there a made in italy sticker sumwhere that u can check?

f
userlibby
Posted: 9 October 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


Lets all hear from the 1800 mileage man then, not an overheard message.
useryeti
Posted: 9 October 2008 11:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.

My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!
userMelvin
Posted: 10 October 2008 8:29 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Hey why are we fighting amonst each other, we would all agree Fiat have been a less than truth, and have handled this problem 'hamfisted'.

We all have opinions.

It is Fiat who have sold all of us a 'DUFFER', we all feel cheated out of our money, but deep down inside we feel embarased we let this happen.

I have take every oportunity, to tell people how decitful my dealer and Fiat have been, I can assure you several perspective X250 owner have taken note.

Yes I had to send Fiat a copy of my log book, December 2007.

As regards values, I asked two reptuable dealers, as regards part exhanging my May 2008 Autotrail Cheynne 660 2.3 manual for a 3.0 Auto. It took several days for them to come back with trade in figures £27,000 plus to change ? wow what a loss.
userAndyStothert
Posted: 10 October 2008 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Henry is OK by me. He is helping keep this matter boiling whilst Fiat consider their options.
But what you write is what you think and then when you read it back it is still what you are thinking and not necessarily what you've written, nor what other folk will think when they've read it. Does that make as much sense to everyone else as it does to me whilst sitting here typing it?
So we get these misundersatndings. Fine - it 'd be a dull place without them. And Henry isn't stupid for when he needed to change motorhomes he considered the options and did at least buy a 5 speed model after reading of all the aggro with our 6 speed ones. But Henry, please, don't try to act as the PR man for Swift - you haven't a clue how big a stock of vehicles they are holding, and the average new-to-delivery delay seems to be over six months.

Yesterday I got an email from a chap in Sweden. They are obviously having the juddering problems with their Fiats there too, but because they (the disgruntled owners) haven't got organised they seem to be still getting the response from Fiat which we all got at the beginning - 'its just a vehicle characteristic and there is nothing wrong'. Fiat are even refusing to issue complaint case numbers to Swedish owners.
This may not seem that relevant to us, but it sort-of shows the 'institutionalised' dishonesty which obviously permeates right through Fiat, as they know full well what the issues are, but are still more than prepared to lie if they think they can get away with it.
I was feeling quite up-beat about the situation until that frustrated Swedish gentleman told me what was happening there.

Edited by AndyStothert 2008-10-10 10:38 AM
userlibby
Posted: 10 October 2008 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


I can only add an aside comment to all this (fortunately) and support Andy in all that he has done.

I can imagine the FIAT problems are near impossible to rectify with world wide sales.

I had a reason some years ago to be involved with a rear bumper fault on a Toyota saloon car build in their factory at Burnaston Derbyshire. It cost Toyota millions, and it was a very simple fix, just fitting a plastic bumper. The numbers of 'awaiting delivery' faulty cars was mind boggling.

Remember well, a production line is almost impossible to stop and as Andy points out there are large stocks of vehicles around, and they maybe also need a fix.

Personaly I see no answer. Not a pleasant comment I know!
usercolin
Posted: 10 October 2008 12:53 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


It does make you wonder what effect this problem may have had on Knaus, was it the tipping point?
userfred grant
Posted: 10 October 2008 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


correct my biddy, not only the tipping point but the tip of the iceberg - with apoligies to forum members with savings in iceland.

farmerfred
userrupert123
Posted: 10 October 2008 3:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Forum master

Posts: 2918
2000500100100100100
Location: Beddgelert, North Wales


yeti - 2008-10-09 11:37 PM

.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.


My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!

But did you pay for it, I suspect not and that was my point.

Edited by rupert123 2008-10-10 3:19 PM
usercolin
Posted: 10 October 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


So henry, you still havent done your research yet, it's not hard, in fact when you think about it not many X250 MH's will have clocked up enough miles to justify the fair wear and tear of clutch and we have had one posted on here where the owner was asked to pay for clutch replacement.
userMel B
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The special one

Posts: 12468
5000500020001001001001002525
Location: E Yorks, 2015 Globecar FamilyScout L Ducato Maxi


rupert123 - 2008-10-09 2:50 PM

I have not the slightest idea can only quote what the Fiat m/h warrenty states. If someone is daft enough to pay for a clutch after 1800 miles it is up to them, that could not be classed as normal wear and tear. Perhaps this is another one like the people being gassed thing, an urban myth. Or do you know a case when this has happened.


For goodness sake! Please, please, please read postings properly instead of 'speed' reading or reading things into it them aren't there!!!

Rupert clearly mentioned someone being daft enough to pay for the clutch after 1800 miles and that Perhaps this is another ... urban myth.. He does NOT say that a clutch failing is an urban myth.

It does no-one any good by having digs at each other when there is nothing to actually have a dig about, all it does is make people annoyed and less likely for them to stick around to support those who are having real problems.

I have to agree with Rupert that if someone did pay for a replacement clutch after only 1800 miles, assuming that the vehicle was not over 3 years old (it does happen!), that it was definitely due to the problem with the clutch and not that they had been driving it badly, or that it had been standing around and therefore ceased etc, then they were not necessarily daft but very mis-led by Fiat.

Now whether this supposed owner is willing to give us chapter on verse on this particular incident I doubt it, no one normally likes to admit they have been 'had' or that they have caused the problem themselves.

Now please, lets give these poor owners the support they deserve.
useryeti
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


rupert123 - 2008-10-10 3:18 PM

yeti - 2008-10-09 11:37 PM

.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.


My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!


But did you pay for it, I suspect not and that was my point.

I haven't pickrd it up from the garage yet. I shall ask them to send the bill to FIAT
useryeti
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


rupert123 - 2008-10-10 3:18 PM

yeti - 2008-10-09 11:37 PM

.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.


My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!


But did you pay for it, I suspect not and that was my point.

I haven't pickrd it up from the garage yet. I shall ask them to send the bill to FIAT
useryeti
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


rupert123 - 2008-10-10 3:18 PM

yeti - 2008-10-09 11:37 PM

.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.


My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!


But did you pay for it, I suspect not and that was my point.

I haven't pickrd it up from the garage yet. I shall ask them to send the bill to FIAT
useryeti
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


rupert123 - 2008-10-10 3:18 PM

yeti - 2008-10-09 11:37 PM

.


HELLO, HELLO, CAN YOU HEAR ME? I AM SHOUTING THIS AS YOU DON'T SEEM TO BE LISTENING, I HAVE SEEN REPORTED CASES OF CLUTCHES FAILING AS LOW AS 1800 MILES AND OWNER BEING ASKED TO PAY £1000. IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THIS THEN I SUGGEST YOU DO SOME RESEARCH.


My clutch failed on my 3 month old Autotrail with less than 700 miles on th eclock!!!!!


But did you pay for it, I suspect not and that was my point.

I haven't pickrd it up from the garage yet. I shall ask them to send the bill to FIAT
userfred grant
Posted: 10 October 2008 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


did you hear that rupert my biddy!

fantasticfred
usercolin
Posted: 10 October 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Last post on this link http://www.motorhomefacts.com/ftopic-51140.html
And as I pointed out earlier, Andy posted about owner asked to pay for clutch or gearbox (I can't offhand remember which) on the first thread.
userRayjsj
Posted: 10 October 2008 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Read Dav 3's post on 'that other forum' , the poor so and so, he managed to 'Break' a borrowed M/H. I wonder what he said to the owner ?? errr, your new Van is back outside.... but errr the clutch broke and Fiat say it's 'driver error' , and it's going to cost over a grand to fix.
But it's OK 'cause it's only a MIFF. (so I've been told).
And can we all stop shouting ? it's making my ears hurt.

but it IS keeping this thread 'Red Hot'
userAndyStothert
Posted: 11 October 2008 9:38 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Good morning.
I had a skinfull last night so a little peace and quiet is called for.
Fiat have asked several owners to pay for a clutch replacement at very low mileage but when they refused and then contacted the Customer Care dept the demands have been withdrawn.
This is simply because they are new, and they know we are all kicking up a fuss, but if this problem isn't resolved what do you think the reaction from Fiat will be in couple of years time when clucthes are failing on vehicles out of warranty, and mileages of a just a few thousand?
It'll be 'Sorry mate - fair wear and tear' when the fault really lies with Fiat's incompetence.
And nobody pulled me up about the comment suggesting that the 5 speed ones are blemish-free. They aren't totally, so can you all please pay more attention to the drivel.
userPSHORT
Posted: 11 October 2008 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


Have we all had letters from Fiat saying Fiat Italy are investigating but no timescale is being given? What happened to Managers who used to say to technicians solve this problem by such a date or get your cards!
The note finishes asking me to have patience.
My letter was from Emma Toms.
Surely we need Watchdog
userfred grant
Posted: 11 October 2008 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 899
500100100100252525
Location: penpillick


u need a gert great rottweiller, never mind a watchdog my luvver.

ferociousfred
userPSHORT
Posted: 11 October 2008 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


Perhaps a Jack Russell eh, never gives up until the quarrie
rolls over and admits they are beaten.
userlibby
Posted: 11 October 2008 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100



Patience =

Please
Advise
Those
Intellectual
Embryonic
Natives,
Cannot
Envisage.


userClive
Posted: 11 October 2008 11:33 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3139
2000100010025
Location: New Milton


Got the signs made Andy, On some 10 feet X 8 feet sheets of thin ply that hang off the sides of the van. Where did you say to park it at the NEC?

userhygra
Posted: 12 October 2008 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 17

Location: Cardiff S Wales


Hi all, two friends of mine have fiat based motorhomes up to date they have had a new gear box fitted and 2 clutches also injector faults. registration dates September 07 and June 08. The June 08 is a coachbuilt Fiat 100 and the Sept 07 is a LWB panel van 160. Kind regards Graham
useryeti
Posted: 12 October 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


My Autotrail is June '08 with a number of faults esp. a kn******d clutch. It is in the garage-only just following a pantomime organised by Fiat Camper Assist. It has seen more of Wales and Northern England without me.
Graham were your friends charged for the clutch?
useryeti
Posted: 12 October 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


My Autotrail is June '08 with a number of faults esp. a kn******d clutch. It is in the garage-only just following a pantomime organised by Fiat Camper Assist. It has seen more of Wales and Northern England without me.
Graham were your friends charged for the clutch?
userhygra
Posted: 12 October 2008 2:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 17

Location: Cardiff S Wales


Good afternoon Yeti about the question of charges the work was done by Fiat no charge Graham
usercolin
Posted: 12 October 2008 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


Clive - 2008-10-11 11:33 PM

Got the signs made Andy, On some 10 feet X 8 feet sheets of thin ply that hang off the sides of the van. Where did you say to park it at the NEC?


Now that would be a good idea! Any takers? Park at the bottom of slope as you drive into car park
userAndyStothert
Posted: 12 October 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Colin, don't chuck 'em away - we may need them for the February NEC Show the way things are progressing.
I've just had a look through my 'log' of dealings with Fiat and it commenced on June 5th 2007 when I went into the dealser to whinge about the juddering in reverse whilst getting out of the way of a bus coming the other way up a steep hill in West Yorkshire. Near Jerusalem Farm if that helps? We had just returned from our first outing in the new van, and the shine had ben rubbed off a little by this rather severe fault.
But Fiat were ready for me and produced the famous Service News Bulletin telling the dealers to instruct customers to screw 'em to death if need be when reversing up a hill.
This was dated October 2006, and this confirmed that Fiat already knew they had a problem.
Meanwhile ours trashed a box whilst reversing up a 1:5 in the Black Mountains when attempting to make room for a council lorry coming up a narrow road in the opposite direction. From that moment on I knew something was sadly un-right about the Fiat Ducato, and that presented with the same circumstances the exct same thing would happen again. Fiat said 'No worry, its under warranty, if the gearbox fails again we will replace it again'. I was rather hoping they would say 'don't worry, it won't happen again'.
If my weary brain is still functioning I suspect we are now in October 2008 and Fiat still haven't sorted this out. I can understand that they were trying to blag their way through this at the beginning, but complaints throughout Europe have finally forced them to re-design the gearbox.
But current owners have still not received any assurances that they will get their vehicles fixed, and they are still producing them exactly the same. If you buy one of these vehicles do not expect to be able to use it in hilly areas with any certainty that you will be able to extract yourself from any situation which presents itself.
Whether you knacker the clutch or gearbox is a matter of personal preference and driving technique. Low revs - knackered box, high revs - cooked clutch.
Where was I?
Oh yes, over two years they have known about this defect (reverse gear too high a ratio) but nothing has changed - they are still churning them out just the same.
And for any of you who have just bought a new Ducato with 6 speed box just go and find a steep hill and attempt to reverse it up from a standstill on the steepest gradient.
om standstilk
userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 12 October 2008 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


I heard from our dealer yesterday who stated that FIAT HAVE ACCEPTED THE FAULT! They are apparently reducing gearing and fitting better clutches to resolve the problem.

Now they have admitted it - time for you owners to push and have yours recalled!!
usermike 202
Posted: 12 October 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Admitting it is one thing, actually doing something about it is another. Will they replace a gearbox if you only judder, will they say it is within design parameters for the majority. Will you have to have a busted gearbox the same as Andy. Cooked clutch and not much judder, well that will be your fault?? dodgy driver. Sorry to be a bit negative but having been a Project Manager and had to be and listen to promises of problem solutions tomorrow, I have had to ask the EXACTLY specific question to get any where near the truth.
So the letter of acceptance is good news but, like any good politicians statements, make sure that what Fiat say is totally clear.
userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 12 October 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


That is exactly what i mean mike, the owners are now going to have to push to get it done! They have admitted a fault but that is only half the battle!

It's up to the owners, and hopefully the dealers will help! Those that have bought from the likes of marquis probably will have an easy ride, others who have bought from dealers whom have been denying it for so long, may have a fight on their hands!
userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 12 October 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


That is exactly what i mean mike, the owners are now going to have to push to get it done! They have admitted a fault but that is only half the battle!

It's up to the owners, and hopefully the dealers will help! Those that have bought from the likes of marquis probably will have an easy ride, others who have bought from dealers whom have been denying it for so long, may have a fight on their hands!
userdshague
Posted: 12 October 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lives on the forums

Posts: 524
500
Location: Sth Yorks IMPERIAL SPORTSHOMES i600


i have received a standard letter from fiat saying to take my van in for the dealer to check the judder in reverse also a case number .letter says a few owners have notified them of a problem. on talking to customer service they said a fix was just round the corner.witch corner i said

userMelvin
Posted: 13 October 2008 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Just spoken to Fiat, very negative response " still waiting for news, but cant tell you when", are we being taken for MUGS.

I think so
usermike 202
Posted: 13 October 2008 9:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


EXACTLY Melvin, Fiat and the manufacturers who keep turning out not fit for purpose vehicles are taking everyone for MUGS. They have got away with no hassle at the NEC by making a few noises which were interpreted as a solution. Only if the recession really starts to bite and they see sales going down and the few byers left walk away with their wallets, because they have knowledge of the problem, will we get any support from anyone.
userMinstrel
Posted: 14 October 2008 12:57 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 467
1001001001002525
Location: Devon Murvi Morocco


On a slightly different tack, but still relevant to this thread, I think.

WE recently took our m'home to the local dealers for a new aerial and the service manager made a comment about the fact that dealers 'up north' not being able to sell motorhomes and so MArtins were buying them in instead. We asked did they know about the problems with the gear box/clutch in the new fiats.

Answer NO.

I can't believe that no-one has had a problem in the Westcountry - it's hilly enough!
userAndyStothert
Posted: 14 October 2008 5:14 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Many of the angry/upset/frustrated/ ownser live in the West Country and all the dealers know about this - Fiat sent them all a letter trying the standard fob off increase the revs advice.
If you are sufficiently confident of the information post up who the dealer is.
If not email me - andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
Time to kick ass as they say.
userMelvin
Posted: 14 October 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


I brought my motorhome from Don Amott in Derby in May 2008, the first time I reversed the motorhome I experienced the judder.

Don Amott originally stated they had not heard of the problem, and none of there Fiat X250 motorhome have or experienced the problem. They were going to tell Fiat what for ?. To date they still havent admitted it, however, they neither denyed it.

When I asked for another motorhome, ther attitude changed. They told me Fiat and Autotrail would support them in a court action if I chose to go down that route.

Since then the service has been apauling. First time they had the motorhome for nearly two week, 95% of the work had not been done when I went to pick it up, second time after a week, 90% not done, third attemt most work done, it is a pity I had to get Discovery to finish their handy work. All I get from Don Amott is we have no staff or it the best I can do.

So much for the dealer support
userlibby
Posted: 14 October 2008 11:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


As someone said previously take the dealer to court for selling a vehicle that is not capable of what it was designed for. (reversing)

Simple proceedure surely they cannot argue with that.

What's a matter with you British for gawd sake sue them, make a big play about it get the press on your side walk around with a placard telling all how rotten FIAT are. don't be fobbed off with petty excuses.

You'll be sorted quick as a flash.

Edited by libby 2008-10-14 11:16 PM
userPericles
Posted: 15 October 2008 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 3

Location: Brough, East Yorks


Hi there, I reported my '08 Hymer/Fiat/Sevel/ 6 speed, on this forum last July (I was Elliott in that incarnation, but apparently not the only one) At that time I had lost synchro on second gear, I took your advice, and took it into a local agent,- more of a truck garage than a M/H expert. I also contacted Andy S. who gave me much advice & support. (shame he ails from the wrong side of the Pennines) At first Fiat told garage they should rebuild the original box and sent the parts to do so. When they started they said they had found a bearing had come loose and in spinning round in the box had damaged the casing.( I never heard it.) So back to the drawing board and they fitted a new gearbox 5 weeks start to finish. On Andy's advice I had notified all concerned, M/H Agent (in Belgium) Hymer, & Fiat saying I would like the fault registering as there was severe smell from clutch etc. Only Fiat Care rang me advising how the garage was progressing, usually a couple of hours after I had rang them myself, and I have not been offered any paperwork to 'register' this fault. When I asked Fiat Care about the smelling clutch he said they would consider it if it fails. As yet I have not been able to give it a serious test on a hill (We dont have them in Hull) but it still gives that familiar Thump as you turn the key to start the engine. We are heading into North Yorks this weekend so I may find a decent hill there.
userurbanracer
Posted: 16 October 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Gets involved

Posts: 221
100100


I saw this on another forum

Interesting thread. I drive a ducato based bus for a living (25' long, triaxle, 4500kg unladen with a 2.8 diesel engine).
We have at least five of these in the fleet that I know about (used for transporting elderly/disabled people) and 3 have already been transferred to my area because they cannot cope with hills (even in forward gear!) Mine is 06 model & has nearly 14000 on the clock and it has already had one clutch replaced with another due fairly soon judging by the smell (reversed up a slope yesterday & the clutch really smoked.)
Our fleet is maintained by Brian Currie & they seem to be scratching their heads with this problem.

keep up the good work Andy I see on one motorhome site you have a philistine giving you problems.
__________________
useryeti
Posted: 16 October 2008 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 858
5001001001002525
Location: NW England


Got back from the NEC Last night.
We went to the FIAT stand and politly expressed my concern nay disgust at the whole situation. I was given a form to complete,when I wrote down my surname,the guy on the stand knew of our case. He phoned H.Q they phoned me back twice and aproved the replacement clutch at no cost and a raft of recall work including thw waterproofing and some other stuff whic I was not aware of,it included software download and a replacement starter fuse. If you have the problem go to the show and talk to them in a reasonable fashion I'm sure they will sort it for you in double quick.
I am almost a happy bunny but still concerned about the prognosis of this fault.
My wife is very tenacious about this issue and is badgeringing the World and their wife-well MDs of the follwing Todds-suppliers, Autotrail-builders and the senior manager of FIAT customer care. She did say to them that protem fixes are not a solution-I was impressed by that statement.
What concerns me is that the garage who did the PDI could not repair my vehicle as it would not fit on the lift-so how did they do the PDI,whats involved. Also I bought the vehicle in June and there is a load of recalls to be done including the water ingress issue. Are the vehicle dealers on the ball, how do Fiat notify them of recalls-or do they wait to be called?.
We are not being fobbed off,but I think our approach is more courteous and better informed than shooting from the hip which doesn't help although I can understand people thinking like that.
userRayjsj
Posted: 17 October 2008 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Great news Yeti ! When all the probs. are Fixed, let us know. I will be good to see how 'true to their word' Fiat are.



(FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg (23KB - 331 downloads)
userRayjsj
Posted: 17 October 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


Great News Yeti !
let us know how 'True to their word' Fiat are when your probs. fixed.
It'll show us all whether they are really serious about Customer Service.
Just a reprise of clives piccy 'cause I think it's great :



(FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg (23KB - 338 downloads)
usercolin
Posted: 17 October 2008 9:09 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 7488
50002000100100100100252525
Location: Bedfordshire, Globecar 636SB


When Andy posted about a Pug fix I once again contacted What Van who have published this http://www.whatvan.co.uk/news_s.asp?id=5415
usermike 202
Posted: 18 October 2008 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Hi Yeti,

The quickest and only way in my opinion to find out about recalls is to ring Mr Ford or Mr Fiat's main dealers and ask them. I have done this on 2 occasions, first on a mar 2008 reg Fiat based motorhome and its replacement June 2008 on a ford. Both enquires within 2 weeks of collecting the new vehicle from the dealers.
It seems that it is up to us the customers to look after ourselves, after all if we breakdown the it incoviences us not the dealer.
Mike
userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 18 October 2008 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


We also visited the NEC on Tuesday. Went to the Fiat stand to check progress. We were introduced to the Manager of customer services. He was very helpfull and positive. Seems there is a variety of issues regarding the reverse operation of the X250 Ducato. Fiat engineers italy are working on a fix to rectify the varying issues between the model ranges.
I would say that although he could not make any timescale commitment to the actual recall/rectification work being released , we may hopefully have a fix for the end of the year.
let's just keep up the pressure for now, when we have this issue fixed I personally feel we have the best cab/engine unit for our motorhomes.
I would also note that it doesn't help our case when we fall out and argue between ourselves publicly on this forum.
userDavidE
Posted: 18 October 2008 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 1



Hello

We have a 6 speed box on a new 3.0l Fiat Ducato based motorhome. This is a replacement for our 3 year old 2.8jtd.

First thing I noticed was juddering in reverse, and first actually, when going up a hill. I ended up slipping the clutch to get through but there is a terrible smell.

I want to register the issue with Fiat, does anyone have an address or email address I can write to about the issues?

Also, I want to make sure they have the motorhome delivery date as the start of the Fiat warranty. Do I give them that information to the same address?

Thanks in advance for your help,
David
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 October 2008 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


If you send me an email I will return the Info sheet advsing you what to do and who to contact.

andystothert@blueyonder.co.uk
userRayjsj
Posted: 19 October 2008 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


David,
I would contact Andy Stothert, His posts start this thread, I'm sure he'll be glad to add you to his database, he'll also know all the correct contacts to register you with Fiat, so that when the 'Fixes' start to be carried out. You are at least 'On the list'. The warranty start date you need to contact your dealer and get him to 'Sort it' . Having to slip the clutch in first is a recipie for an early 'Burn-out'. Regards
userRayjsj
Posted: 19 October 2008 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


oops ! too slow off the mark.
userWellsgofar
Posted: 19 October 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 29
25
Location: Lancashire


Hello to all,
I am new to the forum, but not the seen. Our 56 reg Fiat multijet 130 Bolero M/H, like the majority, judders when reversing on inclines.
In July 08 problems started, I reported the fault to my local Fiat dealership in Blackburn ( BK ), who were extremely helpful, advised me to bring the vehicle in for inspection. The mechanic at BK agreed with me finding the juddering excessive. They reported the fault to Fiat who arranged a technician to come and inspect the vehicle later that week. This time the technician reported that the juddering was within specification. end of story.
Now in October, the juddering is far worse and I spoke to the dealership in BK who advised me to contact Fiat Customer service on 08003899119, where a young lady constantly repeated that I had to increase my revs on reversing, it took quite some time before I got through to her that the vehicle had been inspected by their technician but it was getting worse, when the penny dropped, she gave me a Case number.
On the 9th October I received a letter from Fiat explaining that there had been and I quote "The feedback has been received from only a very small MINORITY of Motorhome owners."
I'm wondering that if you don't contact customer service, you won't get a Case No, or they don't add you to the list if you get fobbed off with the Fiat Technician report.
My advice is for everyone with problem to contact Customer Service for Case No on and I repeat 08003899119.
With all the previous recalls visits and these additional visits to Bk, with time and fuel, I am now approx £300 out of pocket.
Regards to all,

Alan
usermike 202
Posted: 19 October 2008 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Fiat are still fobbing off as many as possible, and if you dont read this or other forums then you will be in complete ignorance and ready to be ripped off. Still think a protest at Show in Feb is the way to go
usercatinou
Posted: 19 October 2008 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


mike 202 - 2008-10-19 6:17 PM

Fiat are still fobbing off as many as possible, and if you dont read this or other forums then you will be in complete ignorance and ready to be ripped off. Still think a protest at Show in Feb is the way to go


We spoke to the guy on the Fiat stand at the NEC and he told us that they are working on 4 possible solutions to the latest Fiat problems otherwise known as - the judder

He did say that the solutions should be available by the end of the year (?2008??) and that we would be contacted to take our MH to a Fiat dealer at that time. We hope he is right and will give him the benefit of the daoubt as he was right when he explained the "fix" for the water ingress problem at last year's show.

Mind you, in spite of our disappointment with the NEC show this year we could be persuaded to go again in February after all...........
userAndyStothert
Posted: 19 October 2008 10:22 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Yes, the show was a bit rubbish really (no kipper or curry stand) but in certain circumstances a good few of us may have to attend in February if the (very late) charm offensive by Fiat hasn't produce anything definite.
I think I'm still keen to bang the drum about folk not buying a new one until Fiat actually fix it or guarantee to fix it though then past and current buyers will have a vehicle fit to do what its supposed to.
Talisker time.
userduffers
Posted: 19 October 2008 11:05 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 507
500


there was a letter about this in 'Honest John' in Saturdays Daily Telegraph, specifically about the pug variant I think.
I'm afraid that my copy seems to have gone walkabout - but will try and track it down

ray
userRainbow-Chasers'
Posted: 20 October 2008 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 194
100252525


I annot beleive that they have admitted the problem, are repairing the vehicles in SOME cases - yet their customer services are still denying it!

Unbeleivable!! Mind you, my mates van that does it, is in having the remedial work done as a recall from fiat! So why not all???
usermichele
Posted: 20 October 2008 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


50005000500100100100100
Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Am I Niaeve enough to think that you could all stand outside the NEC with plackards and banners and a peacful protest . Surly there isnt anything they could do about that . Everyone has the right to peacfully protest .

Wonder if any local rags would publish .
userGeoff Cole
Posted: 20 October 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Gets involved

Posts: 292
100100252525
Location: Isle of Man & France Central Vauxhall Vivaro


I visited a campervan show at Agen SW France over the weekend there were a lot of vans, various continental makes as you would expect. I made a point of looking around the windscreen area and despite the so called fix by Fiat the water ingress problem is still there.
ALL of the Sevel based vehicles had scuttles with gaps in the centre, puddles of rain water at the scuttle ends with the wiper arm bearing under water on some, and tide marks where water had filled the scuttle and overflowed into the engine bay.
The scuttle was coming away from the windscreen,and the large gap between the bonnet and the infill panel above the headlamps is still there.
On a few some had headlamps running in condensation on the inside. The only improvement I saw to some of the scuttles were larger drain holes at the ends but these were blocked up as they are still to small. The only way to fix this problem at source is a complete re-design of the scuttle, and a seal round the headlamps and bonnet sides. Fixes have already been highlited both on the forum and in MMM,I have carried out my own fix which I have posted previously and it does work, my engine bay is completely dry.
I did not get a chance to have a look under the bonnet but my guess is that the engines would be very rusty. These campers were advertised as 2008-9 models obviousy built on stock chassis.There were quite a few used 2007 models for sale, some looking a bit tired. The water ingress problem can be fixed without a lot of cost, this cannot be said about gearbox/ clutch problems which at the wrong time can leave you stranded.
As for the reversing problem I am fortunate that my 5 speed 100hp has the lower final gear ratio and goes backwards uphill OK. I like the rest of you are grateful to Andy for bringing this problem to our attention, it made me test mine on the steepest hill I could find which is not difficult on the IOM.
I hope that Fiat do what they are saying they will and will get this problem fixed for all of us.
Geoff Cole
userFiat UK
Posted: 20 October 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 22



If you have a concern regarding a reverse vibration and have not contacted Fiat, please contact Customer Relations on 00800 3428 0000 option 3.

Alternatively,

Our address is:
Fiat House
240 Bath Road
Slough
Berkshire
SL1 4DX

userTracker
Posted: 20 October 2008 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


It is good to know that Fiat is reading this forum - I hope it hurts them!

Perhaps they might like to know that I have taken the sound advice that I have been able to give to so many buyers at various shows and dealers premises this year and decided not to buy a van on the new Ducato base.

We are in the process of buying another van on the previous Boxer base as I consider that the new van does not show enough of an improvement over an Alko chassis previous model van (with it's somewhat softer and quieter ride and better handling than the standard chassis) to justify the very high prices being sought as well as the aggravation being offered.

Shame really that Fiat decided to keep shooting themselves in the foot and only now have taken an interest in proceedings - not that an invitation to register a fault is any indication of what and when (if any)remedial action will be offered. Fiat's customer care is legendary!

Don't let the buggers off the hook by backing off now guys and gals as, thanks mainly to Andy Stothert, we do at last seem to be getting their attention - but not as yet their undivided attention it seems?
userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 20 October 2008 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


Thanks to Fiat at last for their published interest in the various reverse issues raised here , in the numerous other forums ,at the NEC and the lobbying from the Motorhome manufacturers, Swift especially.
At the risk of repeating myself , when this unfortunate flaw is put behind us along with the Scuttle (now completely resolved by Fiat UK) we will have an excellent unit for our motorhome needs.

treveden
Swift Suntor 580pr 2008
userlibby
Posted: 20 October 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


Trevenden,

Maybe but I would still never touch a FIAT. Why is it some of you are so 'loyal' when they produce such unsavoury vehicles?

'Unfortunate flaw' you suggest. Gordo Bennet young man !!!! Don't you like the good things in life, they're an awful product!

Would you shop at Tesco if they kept slipping rotten apples in your trolley when you said you wanted ripe one's ?

Edited by libby 2008-10-20 7:47 PM
usercatinou
Posted: 20 October 2008 7:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Probably because the pluses outweigh the faults Libby
userlibby
Posted: 20 October 2008 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
500100100


I do wonder what would have happened if Andy had not been so persistent.

I've not heard of many more owners who would tackle the problem with dogged persistance. All the forum discussions have only been due to Andy, he must have saved many of you thousands.

FIAT have produced (and sold to MILLIONS) a faulty vehicle , I fail to see how anyone can quantify that, and I fail to see how users can be so soft about the company when they've failed miserably.

How about the plus points is suggested. Jigger the plus points I need a vehicle that works first time and its not a FIAT.
userurbanracer
Posted: 20 October 2008 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Gets involved

Posts: 221
100100


Fiat UK - 2008-10-20 5:37 PM

If you have a concern regarding a reverse vibration and have not contacted Fiat, please contact Customer Relations on 00800 3428 0000 option 3.

Alternatively,

Our address is:
Fiat House
240 Bath Road
Slough
Berkshire
SL1 4DX



What about us Peugeot users?
userparkmoy
Posted: 20 October 2008 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
A posting machine

Posts: 335
10010010025
Location: 2001 Compass Navigator 360e on a VW 2.5 TDi


I do wonder what would have happened if Andy had not been so persistent.

I've not heard of many more owners who would tackle the problem with dogged persistance. All the forum discussions have only been due to Andy, he must have saved many of you thousands.

FIAT have produced (and sold to MILLIONS) a faulty vehicle , I fail to see how anyone can quantify that, and I fail to see how users can be so soft about the company when they've failed miserably.

How about the plus points is suggested. Jigger the plus points I need a vehicle that works first time and its not a FIAT.


Well said Libby! It's these apologists who perpetuate bad service and workmanship. More money than sense IMO.
userStuart
Posted: 20 October 2008 10:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Keeps coming back for more

Posts: 148
10025
Location: Lincoln, CI Cipro G, 2006 Mercedes


This fiasco is just the more recent example of Fiat's customer relations.

My previous van had failure of the fifth gear, a problem which Fiat denied right up to the end of production of that version.

I recall George Colling persuaded them to accept the faulty gear parts for inspection but they never even had the good grace to acknowledge receipt of these parts I sent back via their local dealer.

I was disposed to change vans last year but would not contemplate a Fiat again until I was satisfied there was a change of heart at the top end somewhere.

Stuart.
userBazza454
Posted: 20 October 2008 11:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Epic contributor

Posts: 1235
100010010025
Location: Hobby Van EXC - Milton Keynes Bucks.


treveden - 2008-10-20 7:10 PM Thanks to Fiat at last for their published interest in the various reverse issues raised here , in the numerous other forums ,at the NEC and the lobbying from the Motorhome manufacturers, Swift especially. At the risk of repeating myself , when this unfortunate flaw is put behind us along with the Scuttle (now completely resolved by Fiat UK) we will have an excellent unit for our motorhome needs. treveden Swift Suntor 580pr 2008

Hi Trevor,

Congratulations - you have won the MMM (for the dazed and confused, according to Bruce) prize for the October "Optimist Of The Month" competition. Prize is on it's way to you.

userAndyStothert
Posted: 21 October 2008 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Fiat have now definitely changed the way their Customer Care team are treating dissatisfied owners, but that is all it is - change of tactics.
They are now treating customers in the way they should have been in the beginning rather than all the lies and evasion.
But they still aren't promising anything - they are just being 'nicer' to our faces - whilst the defective vehicles still pour out of the factory and they try to think of ways of not spending money on new gearboxes and clutches.
We all understand the figures involved are huge, but they have a responsibility to their customers as well as the owners of the company - whoever that may be.
Alll we are asking for is a written assuarance that our vehicles will be fixed or warranties extended.
This would not put Fiat in any kind of position where they have to make a blanket admission of guilt to this cock-up, but would safeguard current owners and future buyers in the long term.
But they won't do this. Why? You can almost hear the wheels within wheels attempting to find a way out of spending the money needed to rectify their mistake.
Integrity and responsibility are alien concepts to this lot.
usermichele
Posted: 21 October 2008 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


50005000500100100100100
Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Anyone can register with any name and address ...

I wonder if it really is Fiat and if its is good and if its not then they will be getting alot of letters Good.
userFiat UK
Posted: 21 October 2008 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 22



We spoke to a number of customers at the NEC show and many requested that we now post on this forum.

Whilst we are unable to discuss individual cases on the forum, we would request any customer contact us if they have any concern with their vehicle regardless of topic.

We can also be contacted on our email address - customerrelations@fiat.com

We look forward to hearing from you.
userTracker
Posted: 21 October 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Fiat UK - 2008-10-21 5:29 PM

We spoke to a number of customers at the NEC show and many requested that we now post on this forum.

Whilst we are unable to discuss individual cases on the forum, we would request any customer contact us if they have any concern with their vehicle regardless of topic.

We can also be contacted on our email address - customerrelations@fiat.com

We look forward to hearing from you.


BUT STILL A DISTINCT LACK OF ANY PROMISE, OR EVEN A HINT, THAT FIAT WILL ACTUALLY DO ANYTHING HELPFUL OR CONSTRUCTIVE TO RECTIFY ALL THOSE DEFECTIVE VANS?
userTracker
Posted: 21 October 2008 5:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Fiat UK - 2008-10-21 5:29 PM

We spoke to a number of customers at the NEC show and many requested that we now post on this forum.

Whilst we are unable to discuss individual cases on the forum, we would request any customer contact us if they have any concern with their vehicle regardless of topic.

We can also be contacted on our email address - customerrelations@fiat.com

We look forward to hearing from you.


Oh I just bet you can't wait to hear from all those highly disgruntled customers who are likely to be very impressed by the continued lack of any promise or even hint that you will actually DO anything to help other than take details.

Sounds like a PR stalling event to cynical old me and I am bloody thankful that I don't have one of these vans!
userTracker
Posted: 21 October 2008 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Sorry about the double posting but I thought that the first one had got lost in the system - just another senior moment I'm afraid!
usertp002c784tp002c784tp
Posted: 21 October 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Gets involved

Posts: 297
100100252525
Location: Tyne & Wear Fiat Lunar Roadstar 620 2007 2.8tdi


Tracker - 2008-10-21 5:54 PM

Sorry about the double posting but I thought that the first one had got lost in the system - just another senior moment I'm afraid!


Me thinks your new Bride is wearing you down?????

Terry
userTracker
Posted: 21 October 2008 8:02 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


tp002c784tp002c784tp - 2008-10-21 7:31 PM

Tracker - 2008-10-21 5:54 PM

Sorry about the double posting but I thought that the first one had got lost in the system - just another senior moment I'm afraid!


Me thinks your new Bride is wearing you down?????

Terry


Truth to tell Terry she's been wearing me down for three years!
usermichele
Posted: 21 October 2008 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


50005000500100100100100
Location: Rapido ..ask him what size


Getting back on thread ...
When you are just one person at a Dealers know one wants to know what it is you are complaing about .You can shout until you are blue in the face nobody wants to know.

When a 100 or so more people start to moan and spread the word about turning up at shows and telling people not to buy seems to me you get a reply.
Why is it that people dont take honest joe public at his word the first time around why does it have to come to this to get the companies to listen .

maybe this is and I sincerely hope not but maybe its just Fiats way of trying to minimalise any future damage . After all there will be lots out there whom will say lets give them the chance umh still thinking I dont trust them .

Wonder what would happen to these companies if the small man went to buy and before he bought they whipped out a paper saying this is what they expect from their vehicle over x amount of years .Sign that please or i wont buy . How long do you think they would be in business if they refused wont take long to put them out of business would it .
I think the ordinary man in the street has more power than he thinks .
userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 22 October 2008 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


Well Barry,

thanks for the MMM prize, being an eternal optimist I look forward to receiving it.
Personally can't wait for my exciting tour of Europe in the new year in our extremely comfortable, quiet and economical Swift Suntor 580PR supplied by Brownhills Newark.
In the meantime this dazed and confused writer and his good or should I say better half, will leave it to you Guys and Gals to do your best in depreciating the value of you're own motor-homes.
My aim as I sure is the majority of all the Fiat owners is to put this matter to right, so that we can go about our Lives living the dream the Motorhome offers us, not to mention of course the small matter of the expense of our origial purchases. Am i rambling again, i fear so (senior moment)?
"Sandwich every bit of criticism between two thick layers of praise."



userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 22 October 2008 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


Thanks Libby for your support

trev the optimist
userAndyStothert
Posted: 22 October 2008 6:39 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


We too have a quiet comfortable Fiat 2.3 litre based motorhome and it has now covered nearly 20,000 miles. A lot of motorhoming. Most of it good.

We have also had 2 new gearboxes (and Fiat have offered to change it again because it is rattling like a bucket of loose bolts again) and a new clutch.

Its OK somebody saying that very silly thing that we are devaluing our own motorhomes but I think you'll find that it is Fiat who have devalued our vans by turning out a defective vehicle?
Anyway devaulation isn't a problem - I can't sell it all. It would be morally wrong to pass it on to some other poor bugger.
userRayjsj
Posted: 22 October 2008 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Forum master

Posts: 3662
200010005001002525
Location: Way out West (Wales) 2014 Autotrail V line 600


This one is especially for Trevor ! Enjoy !!



(FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments FIAT_GEARBOX.jpg (23KB - 321 downloads)
userMotorhomeViews
Posted: 22 October 2008 7:52 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Liking what I've found

Posts: 54
2525
Location: Notts


andy


pleased you enjoyed the rainy trip to Spain, we enjoyed our rain in France, looking on the bright side at least we have the u shaped lounges for shelter and comfort.

trev the optimist


You don't stop laughing because you grow old. You grow old because you stop laughing.
usertp002c784tp002c784tp
Posted: 22 October 2008 8:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Gets involved

Posts: 297
100100252525
Location: Tyne & Wear Fiat Lunar Roadstar 620 2007 2.8tdi


This campaign to try and get fiat to admit they have a problem both with the gearbox and the leaking scuttle is in effect the same faults (nearly ) as the previous model the 2.8tdi, the model I now drive, and swore I would never buy when they first came out. But they eventualy got it right a scuttle that does not leak on to the engine, and a gearbox that works well no longer loses 5th gear.

I was wondering as I was not on this forum in them days ( if it was going then ) was there as much campaining for fiat to get it right for that model ( the Ducato 15 2.5tdi ) ?

Terry

Edited by tp002c784tp002c784tp 2008-10-22 8:09 PM
usermike 202
Posted: 23 October 2008 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 926
50010010010010025
Location: Portsmouth


Treveden,
great to be an optimist, but why keep waiting for Fiat. It is reactions like yours that Fiat love, Ooooh another optimist who will keep on waiting, luverly, just fob them off with a few promises - DON'T actually do anything and it dosn't cost us a penny. Put our (Fiat) customer care address on the forum to let owners register, that will keep them quiet for a while. They will think that a solution is just around the corner. What we (Fiat) will never do is put a guarantee in writing, especially on the forum, that everyone who has a problem will have it fixed. Just wait until the next NEC show is imminent and bad publicity is threatened, then there will be more hints that a solution is about to happen, same as this October NEC. You want to protect your motorhomes value, then join the throng, force Fiat to get their finger out with at least a guarantee for Gearboxes and Clutches then the value situation will not exist.
Mike
userTracker
Posted: 23 October 2008 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


treveden - 2008-10-22 6:29 PM
In the meantime this dazed and confused writer and his good or should I say better half, will leave it to you Guys and Gals to do your best in depreciating the value of you're own motor-homes.
My aim as I sure is the majority of all the Fiat owners is to put this matter to right, so that we can go about our Lives living the dream the Motorhome offers us, not to mention of course the small matter of the expense of our original purchases.


Sevel based vans will continue to be undesirable as long as there is a known problem with them. This is exacerbated by the recession which is having a similar effect but for different reasons.

As soon as the makers accept full responsibility for their own design failures and undertake to indemnify each and every owner against the cost future transmission related repairs both in and out of warranty the sooner demand will rise, values will stabilise, and Fiat will become a byword for integrity and customer service - watch out for purple flying pigs!

The problem with burying your head in the sand is that it leaves your bum very exposed - as Fiat are now starting to discover.

Doing nothing, trusting Fiat, and hoping does not seem to me to be a good option - but then I don't have one of these wretched things!
usercatinou
Posted: 23 October 2008 3:00 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Tracker - 2008-10-23 10:24 AM

Doing nothing, trusting Fiat, and hoping does not seem to me to be a good option - but then I don't have one of these wretched things!


We do have one of these vans and apart from the current problem we are extremely pleased with it - my husband finds it a joy to drive (I don't get a look in - but then I am better at navigating ) and the power is soooo much better than the last one we had (2.8 engine). It handles better and as a passenger I find it is as steady on roundabouts and when being passed by lorries (or passing lorries ) as our last van was after we had paid out extra for an air ride system on that one.

As owners, we are prepared to give Fiat the benefit of the doubt - until January anyway - it really is not helpful for owners of other vehicle types to keep "gloating" that they don't have one. Methinks they secretly would like to be in "our club"

Edited by catinou 2008-10-23 3:03 PM
userTracker
Posted: 23 October 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


catinou - 2008-10-23 3:00 PM
it really is not helpful for owners of other vehicle types to keep "gloating" that they don't have one. Methinks they secretly would like to be in "our club"


Not really Jenny - having looked a quite a few vans of late we have the means but not the wish to be a member of that particular club! Sorry!

Not setting out offend you but my comments are aimed at FIAT (stands for Fart In A Trance!) as I have the greatest sympathy with individual owners and the sooner this matter is resolved by FIAT the sooner everyone will be happy and the Sevel base van will be back on many buyer's possibles list.

Meanwhile, happy motor homing.

Edited by Tracker 2008-10-23 3:11 PM
usercatinou
Posted: 23 October 2008 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


Tracker - 2008-10-23 3:08 PM


Meanwhile, happy motor homing.


Same to you and yours Rich
userAndyStothert
Posted: 23 October 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Like Catinou I'm prepared to wait until January before doing anything really outrageous because until then they won't have the means to fix these vans anyway.
But that doesn't mean we should stop shouting and bringing attention to this in a bid to get a more concrete assurance from Fiat that they will rectify these vehicles and or extend the warranties.
What is very worrying is that they are still being produced (I have had an email from an owner with brand new Auto Trail today with a very bad case of juddering) and that the problem is growing daily in numbers and thus expense. The worrying bit is that the bigger the cost the less willing Fiat will be to sort it out properly. Meaning they will seek not to.
So yes, we will have to give them a chance (not the benefit of the doubt) until January, but with past experience of these people to draw on,I think we need to keep screaming for all we are worth until then for that assurance.
usercatinou
Posted: 23 October 2008 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


Treasured contributor

Posts: 803
500100100100
Location: 2010 Burstner Aviano i728G


I agree Andy - and believe me, when I want to, I can SCREAM.

Edited by catinou 2008-10-23 3:31 PM
userAndyStothert
Posted: 24 October 2008 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Lives on the forums

Posts: 554
5002525


Right, now that we have Fiat officially acknowledging that they have been reading the forum and now also posting on it, and saying that they are willing to discuss this matter with customers, I, as a customer, would like to know if they are willing to admit that some of these vehicles (the ones subject of customer complaints) have a defect?
And we would also like to know what Fiat intend to do about these vehicles?
In this new age of honesty and open-ness which Fiat tell us they are engaging in with customers these are the two questions which we would like answering. And answering in simple terms.
userPSHORT
Posted: 24 October 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 87
252525
Location: HANTS


Dad everyone see the BBC News item on Swift cutting jobs this morning.
Pity we didnt see it coming we could have suggested additional reasons for a drop in sales.
userJeffus
Posted: 24 October 2008 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Just joined

Posts: 11

Location: The World


Hi guys and gals,

Not been in touch lately due to us travelling a lot (testing new E795) so far so good. We are currently in the Loire Vally, France and rely on wifi hotspots, we have this one 'til well after Christmas so will be following this thread with continuous interest. When I receive more info I'll update you all. Just received our post for the last few weeks. In it was a letter from FIAT. It's dated 8th October 2008 and goes like this (quote).

Dear me,

We have received feed back from yourself and some other Fiat Ducato Motorhome owners, of a vibration when reversing their vehicle. Some describe this as "clutch judder" and it may only be felt when reversing uphill.

The feedback has been received from only a very small minority of Motorhome owners, however we take comments of this nature very seriously and therefore our Technical Services team in Italy are currently investigating.

This letter is just to confirm that investigations are underway and that we will provide further, detailed information once the result are available. As yet, there are no timescales for these findings but please be assured that we will be in touch again as soon as we have any further information.

We appreciate your patience in this matter whilst we investigate the causes fully.

Yours sincerely,

Emma Toms,
Customer Care Director. (unquote).

What do you think people? Are we getting there or still being fobbed off?

Nice to know that FIAT now are reading this thread and posting, maybe . . . just maybe Andy's work will come to fruition. Good on yer Andy and everyone that is helping.

Best R's,

Jeffus. Bessacarr E795 160 Multijet.
userurbanracer
Posted: 24 October 2008 1:49 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Gets involved

Posts: 221
100100


For AndyStothert, I have read on another forum that you say Peugeot have said they will repair vans that have the judder problem.
That is not my experience, I have seen the magazine item that says this also but where did that information come from is it built on hearsay or genuine facts.
If you have any contact names please pass them on.

Keep up the good work but what about Peugeot?
userFiat UK
Posted: 24 October 2008 2:07 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Having a look around

Posts: 22



We listen to what all our customers say and appreciate the time they take to discuss their concerns. There is no delaying tactic going on at all.

Final testing is taking place currently and when we have a further update, we shall communicate this with all the customers who have contacted us.

There is no further update available at this time.

The objective of posting on the forums is to supply information and ask customers to contact us if they need assistance.
userMelvin
Posted: 24 October 2008 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 
Has lots to offer

Posts: 401
100100100100
Location: UK


Dear Mr Fiat,

I have a Fiat X250 motorhome stuck on my drive, it is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike, you knew about this problem for over 18 months, like an ostrich you buried your head, now you are asking for more time. I think you need more medication

I do not think you realise the damage you have done to both the coach builders and your reputation, because of your actions, coach builders and dealers are in either finacial difficulties or going to the wall, people are lossing their jobs. STOP being a wimp and pull your fingers out.
userTracker
Posted: 24 October 2008 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Major Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen problems/ Reversing judder
 


The reply I would like to post to yet another patronising posting by FIAT could be deemed libell