FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
userPhill Fougere
Posted: 12 February 2014 11:27 AM
Subject: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi Folks, I have a problem with the engine operation on my motorhome. It started by the illumination of the Engine warning light (Engine symbol) on the CWP. There were no perceivable symptoms at this time. After a while the Engine Warning light extinguished. I used the camper for short journeys for several weeks without any warning light or engine problems.

Last week I did a long distance trip from Cornwall to east Sussex approx 300miles. After 70 miles and while cruising in 6th gear at about 2200rpm the engine began to hesitate with a small fluctuation in the rev counter. The hesitation cleared after about 30 secs and there were no warning lights on the CWP.

I continued on for another 70miles and while making a sharp turn and going uphill the engine hesitated badly and power was reduced significantly with the illumination of the Engine warning light. I struggled up the hill and stopped at a convenient place. After a cup of coffee and 20 mins rest I fired up the engine and pulled way normally with the Engine warning light illuminated.

These symptoms continued throughout my 600mile round trip. After about 70 miles the engine would hesitate and I would pull over. After 20/30 mins I would start up and all was well for another 70 miles.

On occasions the engine hesitation would be accompanied by a "whooshing" noise from, the engine compartment. This whooshing noise was apparent even when stationary at 810rpm. It sounded like the turbocharger was cycling on/off

At one time I stopped at a garage and they checked for fault codes on the engine management system. Fault code P0638 was indicated. I was advised that this code indicated a problem with the Throttle Valve.

Have any of you folks experienced anything similar? How smart is the FIAT software in isolating defects in the engine management system? Changing a throttle valve is expensive.

Phill
usercolin
Posted: 12 February 2014 11:53 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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You need to talk to Nick Fisher.
I had a similar problem turned out to be mice in the inlet pipe.
p.s. No whooshing sound from mine, the local Fiat garage diagnosed one fault after another, none where corect.

Edited by colin 2014-02-12 12:16 PM
usereuroserv
Posted: 12 February 2014 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi Phill,

I would be happy to try to assist you but will need to know the age of your vehicle. If possible please send me a PM with the chassis number and we can take it from there.

Nick
userCaddies104
Posted: 12 February 2014 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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Well done.....
Now that' what you call a great service in under an hour.... Just brilliant
usereuroserv
Posted: 12 February 2014 3:01 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Right. Here we go......

The details that you have provided state that your March '08 vehicle was built on 5th October 2007.

From your description of the fault, i can be pretty certain of what needs to be done, and the order in which to do it.

Unless this vehicle has already had a modified throttle body fitted, you are almost certainly going to need one. Sorry.

In the meantime and assuming that you have not reached the stage yet whereby a huge quantity of black smoke is emitted from the exhaust while the engine is running badly and losing power; you can relieve the symptoms by removing the right hand pipe that is pushed onto the solenoid valve. This valve is bolted to the rear of a plate that is underneath the windscreen scuttle and extends 6 inches down towards the engine. This is always worth a try if you are in a mess but needs to be regarded as a temporary fix only.

This solenoid will be getting quite hot because it is having to do a lot more work than it normally would, and will almost certainly need to be replaced once the throttle body is attended to. They just wear out.

The test for the throttle body is to remove the rubber pipe on the left hand side so that the metal flap inside the throttle body can be reached with your fingers. If it moves very freely and returns unaided to the position that it was before; you may be lucky and it might be alright. If it is even slightly 'sticky' in operation or is stuck or does not return it is broken and will need to be replaced.

The initial units fitted from 2006 were brittle and did not last long. The pivot for the flap was attached in a very weak manner to the actuator (motor drive) and broke frequently. The later revised devices were not much better until 2009 when a completely new and much more substantial unit was offered (and fitted at the factory after September 2009). The only problem with this one is that the electrical plug is incompatible with the earlier loom and requires an extortionately expensive converter lead.

The replacement of the throttle body is a job not for the feint of heart. It requires the removal of the front panel and radiator(s) to provide sufficient access. Some of the bolts that secure the body and the EGR piping will inevitably break and you will need to have access to the right kit to deal with that. It will take even a garage that does this job regularly at least 4 hours to complete and you may well require additional parts like gaskets and seals (plus a few screws) to get it done.

The latest throttle body is part number 504351131 and Fiat will want about £280 for it. The same item is available from Iveco dealers for about £75 less. The conversion loom is part number 504388760 costing about £115 from Fiat and a startling £60 from Iveco! You will definitely need a gasket 504084278 which is inexpensive.

The solenoid valve is part number 46524556 and is around £165 from Fiat. An identical device made by Pierburg (pt number 7.02256.03.0) can be bought from Andrew Page for £35 less.

However tempting the prices may look; do not even consider any used parts. This is not a job you want to do again!

This kind of throttle body will not be improved by 'cleaning'. This is an absolute waste of time since the device is normally not just sticking, but broken.

If there seems to be nothing wrong with the throttle body you should go straight to the solenoid valve and replace that. The bobbins used to fix it to the metal plate often break so you may need a couple of those too. Don't forget to remove the little exhaust part from the bottom of the valve and fit it to your new one. The plastic plugs that are inserted in the new one MUST be removed, and there are 3 of them. Make careful note of which of the two pipes goes to which side! On the 2.3 engine they cross over each other, and on 3.0 engines they don't! This though is a job that you might wish to try to do yourself.

I am truly sorry to be the bearer of such expensive news but hopefully you can save some money by purchasing the items that you need from the other sources mentioned. If you need any further guidance just let me know and please keep us all updated with your progress.

Nick

userPhill Fougere
Posted: 12 February 2014 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Thank you Nick for your prompt and detailed reply. I am getting ready to sell one of the grandchildren to pay for the repair. In the meantime could you give me a brief description of the the function and interface of the throttle body and solenoid.

With reference to the solenoid valve RH pipe. Is this viewed from looking from the front of the engine bay or with respect to the van while looking forward.

Phill
usereuroserv
Posted: 13 February 2014 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Phill,

The right hand pipe as seen standing in front of the vehicle; looking at it.

As regards further explanation of the workings of the system, I have explained exactly what you need to do and am afraid that I don't have the time as well as running a business to get into that.

Regards

Nick
userPhill Fougere
Posted: 14 February 2014 4:54 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Thanks Nick for all your help. I will sort the other query out myself. I appreciate your time spent on assisting me.

Phill
userGram
Posted: 14 February 2014 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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From the information in Nick's posting it appears that the engine's air supply system in Phill's 2.3L is very similar to that in my 3.0L. As far as I understand it works as follows:

The output from the air filter is drawn into the turbocharger, which is driven by the exhaust gas, from which it exits slightly compressed, and warm (maybe hot).
This compressed warm/hot air then passes through the Intercooler which cools it down.
The output from the Intercooler is fed to the Throttle, the position of the vane of which determines the amount of air admitted into the cylinders to mix with the atomised diesel fuel, which, upon compression, causes the Power stroke.
However, the EGR system, under certain conditions, causes a percentage of the exhaust gases to mix with the air entering the cylinders. It does this by tapping off exhaust gas from the exhaust manifold and directing it through a water-cooled heat exchanger to cool it down. The output of this heat exchanger is fed into the EGR Valve which, when actuated, allows the gas to enter the air intake circuit at a point prior to the Throttle.
The operation of the EGR valve is controlled by the Engine Control Unit (ECU) controlling the EGR Pneumatic Valve (the solenoid valve) which allows a tap-off from the brakes vacuum system to operate the EGR valve as required.

As Nick does not mention the EGR Valve as a specific item, maybe on the 2.3L the EGR Valve and Throttle are contained in the same unit.

Hope this serves to enlighten rather than confuse.

G
usercolin
Posted: 14 February 2014 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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Gram - 2014-02-14 7:54 PM


As Nick does not mention the EGR Valve as a specific item, maybe on the 2.3L the EGR Valve and Throttle are contained in the same unit.

G


"Err, no Ted"
userroger20
Posted: 28 February 2014 12:07 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi Nick

You may remember we discussed changing wide mirrors for medium Peugeot ones a few years ago - I would appreciate your help again.

My Autotrail Tracker, like Phill's was delivered March 2008 and rightly or wrongly, following your advice I decided to change the throttle body to avoid possibly getting stuck one day on the far side of Europe.

I have now removed it (managed without removing the radiator by using a claw foot O/E spanner on the front left bolt which then dropped down into the fan housing! ) and have a new Magneti Marelli to refit.

Someone suggested re-using the large and small (aluminium?) gaskets but they seem to be coated with some type of compound. Do you always replace the gaskets and do you use any type of compound on them to seal the joints?

One of the bolts attaching the body to the engine block was a bit stiff to remove and took some gentle persuasion with PlusGas to get it out safely. It was showing some signs of corrosion and galling with the aluminium casting. As the front of the engine is fairly exposed would you use something like Coppaslip or perhaps Optimol TA alu paste re-fitting nuts and bolts on the engine which are prone to corrosion? If so, do you just use commonsense re-tightening because the quoted torque settings presumably only apply to dry threads?

Thanks

Roger
usereuroserv
Posted: 28 February 2014 11:03 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi Roger,

You can get away with not removing the radiator sometimes. I did one this week and having removed the slam panel I just lifted the radiator up on the right hand side and moved it forwards a bit. This gave me enough room to get onto the awkward bolt with a long extension and standard socket. This bolt is always the most stubborn since it is the only one that is not in a blind hole. The oxidisation builds up on the other end of the screw and starts filling the hole up! On this occasion I was very lucky and it seems that so have you. If the screw had broken; which is more common, you would have needed more room to get things sorted out and that would have been exit time for the radiator.

I do use new gaskets and apply copper or aluminium grease to every hole and thread (to make sure). It makes things a bit smelly when you start it up again while it burns away but it makes the job a lot easier next time. You don't really have to use the new gaskets; I think the old ones should be fine but for the sake of a few pounds when you have done so much seems barely worth it.

The large gasket is 504084278 (£3.92) and the small ones are 504341194 (£1.69) of which you will probably need 2.
The replacement throttle body differs from the original in that it has no studs on the EGR side, so you will need 2x M8 x 25 (or 30) screws to fit the EGR flange to it. Grease them well!

Also apply grease to every single screw that you fit on the front of the van for the slam panel, radiator mounts, bumper and grille panels. You won't regret it in years to come.

Nick
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 28 February 2014 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Now there's a surprise a Fiat with an electrical problem. Who would have thought?
usereuroserv
Posted: 28 February 2014 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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starvin marvin - 2014-02-28 12:10 PM

Now there's a surprise a Fiat with an electrical problem. Who would have thought?


Statistically speaking you probably had a flu jab before the winter and will more than likely have a bad back or arthritis at some point. There is not really a point to this comment but then again nor was there with yours.
userCorky 8
Posted: 28 February 2014 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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euroserv - 2014-02-28 11:03 AMHi Roger,You can get away with not removing the radiator sometimes. I did one this week and having removed the slam panel I just lifted the radiator up on the right hand side and moved it forwards a bit. This gave me enough room to get onto the awkward bolt with a long extension and standard socket. This bolt is always the most stubborn since it is the only one that is not in a blind hole. The oxidisation builds up on the other end of the screw and starts filling the hole up! On this occasion I was very lucky and it seems that so have you. If the screw had broken; which is more common, you would have needed more room to get things sorted out and that would have been exit time for the radiator.I do use new gaskets and apply copper or aluminium grease to every hole and thread (to make sure). It makes things a bit smelly when you start it up again while it burns away but it makes the job a lot easier next time. You don't really have to use the new gaskets; I think the old ones should be fine but for the sake of a few pounds when you have done so much seems barely worth it.The large gasket is 504084278 (£3.92) and the small ones are 504341194 (£1.69) of which you will probably need 2.The replacement throttle body differs from the original in that it has no studs on the EGR side, so you will need 2x M8 x 25 (or 30) screws to fit the EGR flange to it. Grease them well!Also apply grease to every single screw that you fit on the front of the van for the slam panel, radiator mounts, bumper and grille panels. You won't regret it in years to come.Nick

Nick you know how I feel about (spit) Fiats .But I have to say your one TOP GUY ,you give you help so Freely and were lucky to have you on the Forum,  More Power to your Elbow ,as we say.    Dennis.

usereuroserv
Posted: 28 February 2014 1:40 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Thanks Dennis.

THAT is the kind of comment that makes it worthwhile.
userroger20
Posted: 28 February 2014 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Thanks Nick - as ever much appreciated.

I think if I'd known that breaking a bolt was common I might not have been quite so enthusiastic to tackle the job!
userroger20
Posted: 28 February 2014 11:14 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Just a few observations for anyone also contemplating changing a throttle body on a 2.3 Ducato (obviously I can't comment on any of the other engine variations).

The front middle plastics are in two parts - the grill insert and the remainder of the backing plastics behind. Having first removed the obvious screws and the 2 plastic buttons at the bottom of the grill it's still fairly firmly fixed and requires lifting vertically to disengage the lugs at the bottom and the side. Some form of tyre lever or similar at the bottom would have probably helped to spring the grille out but with care it's possible to remove it without breaking anything. The remainder comes off easily after removing all the remaining screws. The attached photos should make things a bit clearer.

Strictly speaking the battery negative lead should be removed. However on the Autotrail I believe there is also a positive link to the leisure battery so the negative would also need to be removed on this to ensure that all the Fiat electrics are isolated.

Removing the bolts on the throttle body clearly has some issues as noted by me and Nick. The top two and the bottom right are easily accessible but the bottom left is a monkey. As Nick says this drilling is open hole and corrosion spreads upward. However in my case it was the top left which had suffered water ingress from above and started to seize. If as Nick suggests the bolts are seized in so tight that they are likely to break I would probably stop before putting too much pressure on because removal is going to require some fairly involved workshop attention to remove them (drilling out and helicoiling - as Nick says this job is not for the feint-hearted!).

As mentioned I was able to get the bottom left bolt out easily using a claw foot O/E spanner on the end of a 3/8" extension bar. If this had been at all seized I suspect this method would not work. In my case I could (just) get access without removing the radiator. Unlike Nick who was able to lift one end of the radiator this isn't possible where, as with mine, the air-con rad is fixed rigidly to the compressor. So if this bolt shows any sign of difficulty you know that draining and re-filling the air-con (as a minimum) is going to become necessary.

Having removed the nuts at the end of the throttle body mine still wouldn't come out despite being very loose and needed removal of the nuts on the other end of the stainless connecting pipe - hence the need for 2 of the smaller gaskets.

I have yet to refit the new TB but hopefully these notes sound a warning that it may not all go to plan! If I encounter any more problems I will post again.



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userPhill Fougere
Posted: 1 March 2014 4:09 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi Folks, I have had the throttle Body replaced as Nick suggested. There was no need to remove any radiator or disturb the Aircon (Lucky Duck). The total cost was 576 Stg.

Breakdown:

Throttlebody 230.00 (Iveco with Garage discount).
Cable Assy 52.00
Labour 190.00
Gaskets etc. 8.00
VAT 96.00

Solenoid valve not changed at this time.

I took a 250 mile round trip to prove the system all OK. Point to note the fuel consumption improved significantly approx 3mpg.

Thank you Nick and all others that contributed with valuable info.


userroger20
Posted: 2 March 2014 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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These were the full prices which Fiat quoted (inc VAT).

Fiat TB - £305.26 Iveco TB - £286.89
Fiat loom - £158.40 Iveco loom - £62.80

In both cases 15% discount was offered. However......I was told that if I fitted Iveco parts to a Fiat they would not offer any warranty. Not sure how they could make that stick but knowing Fiat I'm sure they would try!

So in the end I went for this at £275 including the short cable link.

http://www.neatcarparts.co.uk/throttle-body-egr-valve--cable-for-fiat-ducato-23jtd-multijet-06--504351131-25822-p.asp

They confirmed that it is OEM and came as Magneti Marelli and replaced the original Wahler.

From the photo below it can be seen that the new TB is a complete redesign and although not obvious the bottom left bolt now has easy access because of the new shape of the casting.



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usereuroserv
Posted: 3 March 2014 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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roger20 - 2014-02-28 11:14 PM


As mentioned I was able to get the bottom left bolt out easily using a claw foot O/E spanner on the end of a 3/8" extension bar. If this had been at all seized I suspect this method would not work. In my case I could (just) get access without removing the radiator. Unlike Nick who was able to lift one end of the radiator this isn't possible where, as with mine, the air-con rad is fixed rigidly to the compressor. So if this bolt shows any sign of difficulty you know that draining and re-filling the air-con (as a minimum) is going to become necessary.



Roger (and for the benefit of anyone else that is contemplating this job for themselves...),

What I do is remove the six screws that fix the slam panel and the two that secure the radiator bosses before removing the slam panel and then lift the right hand end of the radiator out of it's rubber support and pull it forwards at that end about an inch which does not even pull on the air conditioning pipes at the other end and this gives me enough room to put a socket on the bottom left bolt of the throttle body using a long extension.

If the bolt does shear, you would be looking at draining the coolant and air con systems and removing all of the radiators to get the access that you would need to start trying to heat up and extract the broken stud. It can be done but you need more room. I have done two more throttle bodies today on 08 plate 100,000 mile vans without any drama so it looks like it's only the very high mileage or really old vehicles that will be a pain.
userThomasu2443
Posted: 11 August 2015 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hi all,
I have had exactly the same problem with my Fiat ducato 120 multijet and thanks to Nicks really helpful info think that i might be nearing sorting it out.

I have removed the throttle body pipe and checked that the butterfly flap is moving freely and there appears to be no sticking in any way. So have ordered a new solenoid as recommended and plan to fit it myself as all looks fairly straight forward.

One thing that is a slight concern is that on close inspection it looks like the two small rubber hoses/pipes that are connected to the existing Fiat solenoid are running in straight and not crossed over as Nicks post suggests they should be. If i understood correctly this should only be the case on the 3.0 model and not the 2.3 which is what my ducato is. So my question is should i connect as they are at the moment or should I cross them over?Also what will happen if they are incorrectly attached? I have had the van for around 4 years and this problem only started this year and to my knowledge those pipes have not been removed so i would assume that they are in the right place but would like confirmation

I would really appreciate it if Nick was still available to answer this question as his original post was really helpful to me after hours of trawling through endless threads that have lead to nothing, but if any one else has a clear answer i would be extremely grateful

Thanks in advance Tom
usereuroserv
Posted: 11 August 2015 6:30 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Hello Tom,

I would not be too concerned about the pipes being 'crossed over' or not; in fact i have just looked at two vehicles and they are not crossed over at all!

What is important is that (looking from the front of the van, into the engine compartment) the left hand pipe goes to join the vertical vacuum pipe via a 't' piece and the right hand pipe goes to the end of the EGR diaphragm.

I have not tried running a vehicle with them swapped around but i imagine there would be a warning message on the dashboard and probably some black smoke; it might not want to rev up either. Not the sort of experiment i am going to do just for kicks!

I am delighted that this thread continues to be helpful.

Nick

PS; The above information is correct for 2.3 litre Euro 4 engines!


Edited by euroserv 2015-08-11 6:31 PM
useraandy
Posted: 11 August 2015 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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From what I've seen on this forum and elsewhere, it seem that Fiat engines are fundamentally robust but prone to complicated and expensive problems with the ancillary equipment and electrics. I am currently looking at two near identical vans in terms of age and mileage - both 2007 Burstner Maranos with the 2.3 Fiat engine - one an X 2/44 and the other an X 2/50. My inclination was to go for the 2/50 but I am wondering whether the earlier model might be less prone to such problems and cheaper/easier to fix when it does go wrong. Any thoughts?

Andy
usereuroserv
Posted: 12 August 2015 3:02 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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This is a very interesting question. I would have given a different answer a couple of years ago but here is my current reasoning....

Simplicity is a wonderful thing, and for the next few years it would be reasonable to assume that the less sophisticated Euro 3 engine in an earlier Ducato (Pre 2006) would not suffer from electrical wiring and EGR/Throttle body issues that afflict most 2006 on Euro 4's.

Balance this with the fact that once the wiring problems are rectified and pre 2009 throttle bodies are replaced, there will be few problems with them and as a bonus you won't have the wheel bearing and suspension mount issues that are common on the earlier vehicles and almost unheard of on later ones.

None of the above would affect my final decision though. The problem with the older vehicles is that they are older. Fiat, in common with most manufacturers does not feel obliged to support vehicles over 10 years old with original parts, and in the case of pre 2002 vehicles this is already becoming an issue. Parts for gearboxes, cables for accelerators and clutches, electrical and trim items are becoming scarce if made at all and the after-market for these items was never large enough for third parties to get involved in producing pattern parts. The situation for owners of vehicles built before 1994 is dire already, for '94 to 2002 is a bit of a worry and 2002 to 2006 will soon be in the same situation.

If you are thinking about keeping this vehicle for a few years; the only way to go is newer. Keep a grand or so on ice for any repairs but sleep better at night knowing that the parts will be available and that there are some fairly clever people out there that know how to fix them.

I am sorry if this is less than reassuring to owners of less new vehicles but i have to tell it like it is. I know that Renault and Ford are even worse at supporting vehicles over 10 years old than Fiat; so i assure you that it's not just a bad attitude from Fiat! Supplies of parts specific to a generation of vehicle are generally available for 10 years and then taper off if there has not been consistent demand for the item concerned. Parts that wear out quickly or fail regularly will be supported because there is a financial case for them to do so but items that rot away slowly or are really designed to last the lifetime of the vehicle will disappear first.

That raises the real question. What is the life expectancy of a van or base vehicle? I think most were designed to have a primary life of 3 or 4 years and then a more relaxed life of 2 or 3 more before wearing out. I understand that motor-homes generally do a lot less miles than a van but should we really expect them to last 20 or 30 years?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 August 2015 4:51 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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euroserv - 2015-08-12 3:02 PM.........................
That raises the real question. What is the life expectancy of a van or base vehicle? I think most were designed to have a primary life of 3 or 4 years and then a more relaxed life of 2 or 3 more before wearing out. I understand that motor-homes generally do a lot less miles than a van but should we really expect them to last 20 or 30 years?

The problem is, Nick, that those who buy them do expect them to last that long (or at lest comfortably over ten years), and spend quite a bit of time and money trying to ensure the bodywork and chassis elements get treated against corrosion, to ensure they do.

However, there seems to be another little twist on this, which is that quite a few folk eschew new models in anticipation of teething problems, preferring to buy near the end of the model run when, as your above post bears out, the problems should have been engineered out. So, when support for the series is eventually withdrawn, although their vehicles will be a lot newer than those from early in the production run, they will be equally impossible to repair!

Not sure whether the logical conclusion of that is to buy the new model and be damned, or wait, and grin and bear it, or just cut one's wrists! In the meantime, don't plan on retiring until this all gets sorted!
useraandy
Posted: 13 August 2015 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Thanks Nick, very helpful. As I intend to keep the van for some time I had considered the possibility of parts becoming unobtainable but thought I was probably being over cautious. Since it clearly is an issue I will go for the newest vehicle finances allow.

Andy
userThomasu2443
Posted: 13 August 2015 11:10 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

Posts: 2



Hi Nick
Thanks for your prompt reply. That info is very reassuring as the left hand pipe does indeed join up to the Vertical vacuum pipe via a "T" joint, so thanks for clearing that up for me. The replacement solenoid is on its way so keeping everything crossed that this will resolve the problems!
Please ignore the pm that I sent you this evening as I did not realise that you had replied on the forum.
Thanks once again for sharing your knowledge it is very much appreciated.
Regards Tom
userAlfamart
Posted: 1 January 2016 1:09 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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usergb1
Posted: 1 September 2016 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

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Location: Consett


Hi Nick,

I have had a similar problem I have had my Fiat Ducato 2.3 Autotrail 2012 Chassis No 02123918 for 8 months when the EML came on and went into limp mode I took it to a local auto electician and he couldn't see anything wrong then and he wiped the error codes and it has been fine for the last 3 months. I set off on holiday 2 weeks ago ang two mile from my destination Caterbury the same happened again Check Engine EML and a loss of power. Thee AA arrived and they logged on with their laptop and reported two error codes P068A Battery Connection Detection and P0238 Turbocharger boost-pres, sensor A. Calculated error. They then wiped the error coder to get the vehicle out of limp mode and escorted me to the site. I then took the vehicle to a Fiat dealers in Cantebury they said that a turbo actuator pipe was fitted incorrectly, this could be the problem. They refitted this with no charge and sent me on my way. They also advised that if it occurs again it will need a turbo solenoid as his may be the problem

I have been all over the south coast and just heading north with my final stop in Tewkesbury and just pulling in the site and Boosh it comes on again. I have just rang a local Fiat commercial dealer in Gloucester and told him all this and he says it sounds like the turbo has gone and a new one will be £1000!!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Regards

Gary
userTracker
Posted: 1 September 2016 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


500020002000100
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


Unimpressed with the service from various garages and concerned about use and possible problems far from home abroad I bought a cheap code reader and clearer from Amazon.

It worked well at least twice on a 2009 Fiat 2.3 Autotrail and again on our previous 2.2 Peugeot Warwick but has not been needed on our newer 2011 Peugeot 2.2 so i don't know if it will work or not?

This was the model and it may be worth you looking inro the options and maybe talking to the vendor if only for low cost peace of mind but I believe this device has not worked for everyone, but at least Amazon will take it back and refund if it does not.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006WG7KGS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
useraandncaravan
Posted: 1 September 2016 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Forum master

Posts: 2265
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Location: Conwy, North Wales


GB1, the two fault codes are very different yet both may potentially have a poor electrical connection as their source? Like an Earth strap fault.
The fact that a 'Battery Connection' issue has arisen that might easily affect the resistance values of all the sensors, is exactly the type of error a poor Earth strap may generate.

Suggest you either get the Earth strap replaced or fit a second one?
Lots of info on threads here if you search.




Edited by aandncaravan 2016-09-01 9:07 PM
userspospe
Posted: 1 September 2016 9:29 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


Forum master

Posts: 2305
2000100100100
Location: Stockport 2014 Autosleeper Warwick Duo 2.2 130bhp


Tracker - 2016-09-01 8:12 PM

but I believe this device has not worked for everyone, but at least Amazon will take it back and refund if it does not.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B006WG7KGS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I have one of these and can confirm that it has worked well on both OBD1 and OBD2 vehicles, both petrol and diesel. The last car I used it on was my daughter's 2006 Skoda Fabia, which is I believe OBD1, so it should work OK on a 2.3 2013 Ducato, which is OBD2.
userjonnyenglish
Posted: 19 September 2017 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

Posts: 1



Hello Nick,and anyone else who stumbles on this page after searching their engine fault codes. I include a brief summary of my problem and it's resolution.
it's an IVECO 2009 35S13 2.3l 96 kW and about a year ago i had intermittent EDC light on running a warmed up engine. My independant local garage reported a 28B 'intermittent short to +12 on gas valve actuator, above max thershold, ' although I'm in france so it was that, in french..
I replaced the EGR vacuum solenoid first of all ( easiest and cheapest and it does control GAS flow, like the error reported, and it does make a sort of buzzing sound, like it's on the blink , turns out it's normal) all to no avail, but now I have a new one, so that's something. At first, there were no symptoms aside the EDC light flashing, but more recently, the engine has suffered short bursts of power loss, particularly when running with little throttle input or when lifting eg changing gear, Hard acceleration has not been affected. and finally, the thing would show symptoms whilst idling, a little soot in the exhaust gas, short 'dips' in idle speed. At this point, i removed the black flexible from the throttle body ( comes from intercooler ) and could see, at idle, that the throttle valve runs 80% closed ( seemingly normal ) but was occasionally slamming shut for around 1 s at a time, random intervals, clearly not normal.
So I found a magneti marelli replacement air throttle body online, with the little cable adapter for 245€ delivered, fitted it on the driveway, and the van is cured.
Notes regarding the installation experience.. the adapter cable has only 3 wires in it's loom that goes from the 6 pin magneti body connector to the 4 pin iveco loom side. So apparently, my van would be missing the 'throttle position' feedback. Well I asked nick ( thanks) and the supplier (returns policy !) , and I now know from experience, it doesn't matter. works fine, don't worry.
As far as the intervention goes, all 6 bolts came out a dream, all 13 mm. One spanner, one socket and a littl'un for the jubilee clip on the air line. I re-used the gaslets, that were not stuck ( although I left the small one on the end of the egr input pipe, did't see the point disturbing it ) . I dangled a vacuum cleaner in the inlet manifold while wiping stuff, to avoid dirt ingress, took an hour, can't believe my luck. The only things in my way were the plastic clip on cylinder head trim and the brake fluid level sensor wire that I unclipped. Had to shove a bit of thick loom back and forth too.

Well there you go, feel free to ask me about it, One day, i'll take the old valve apart to find it's weakness!

I have to admit, it's not a motorhome, it's a panel van, but in my defence, I have a camper on a transit chassis that, touch wood, runs great.

Jonathan
userFourOaksMan
Posted: 23 October 2017 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

Posts: 5



Had the engine light come on with juddering, symptoms of a misfire but managed to get home. Today looked under the bonnet and discovered a split in the rubber tube going into the vacuum solenoid valve (on the plate hanging down inside the engine bay) Rectified that and on the first run the light stayed on. Had lunch went out again for a short run and no light! Guess that was the cause of the juddering. Any way I will take it to have the codes checked to ensure nothing else is amiss. Forunately I have a 12 month warranty and only had a month with 32000 odd on the clock - not bad for a 2009 vehicle.
userPeteH
Posted: 6 December 2017 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Gets involved

Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


Hi

Long story, short, Saturday last the EMC came up on the Dash. Called out the RAC, the guy, took some readings :-

Diagnostic Codes

RAC DIAGNOSTIC SYSTEM

System Type: ENGINE

Name: EOBD

DTC: P0638,Throttle actuator control (TAC) , bank 1 - range/performance problem

System Type: ENGINE SYSTEM TEST/VALUES

Name: F1AE0481D - BOSCH EDC16C39 CF4 EOBD - 2.3L - 88 (120)

F1AE0481N - BOSCH EDC16C39 CF4 EOBD - 2.3L - 96 (131)

F1AE3481C - BOSCH EDC16C39 CF4 EOBD - 2.3L

F1AE3481D - MARELLI 8F3 CF5/EOBD - 2.3L - 96 (131)

F1AE3481E - DIAGNOSE - 2.3L - 109 (148)

F1AE3481G - BOSCH EDC16C39 CF4 EOBD - 2.3L - 81 (110)

F1AE3481G - DIAGNOSE - 2.0L - 81 (110)

DTC: P0530,AC pressure sensor

DTC: P0638,Throttle control valve

DTC: P0401,EGR valve


Ignore A/C pressure sensor code, its probably just needing some gas.
However, Throttle control valve and EGR, codes are a bit of a worry.
Having read the thread (not all of it) It would appear that at the very least a Physical clean may be required. Before I go down the road of ripping lumps of Engine off, on the driveway in the cold. Has anyone ever achieved success with "Engine Cleaners" i.e. Wynns etc?. Even if it just gets me into the new year and milder weather.
The RAC guy, deleted the codes, and E-Mailed me the printout, The EMC light is back on again, so it looks like it is not a "one off".

This PM, I took a look, to see what is required. and noticed the the end of one of the vaccuum hoses was split. I have taped it with self amagamating tape for the time being. And have cleared the Fault codes. Looking at the post from Four Oaks man, I now wonder if that is the whole issue. time will tell I supose?.

Edited by PeteH 2017-12-06 8:40 PM
usereuroserv
Posted: 7 December 2017 9:37 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
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Location: Leicester


Hello PeteH,

You will have to let us know which engine you have if we are to help. All we know so far is that it is an X250 with the 2.3 engine but is it a Euro 4 or a Euro 5? Euro 4 ran from 2006 until about 2013 when the change was gradually made to Euro 5 by 2014.

Look forward to hearing from you.
Nick
userPeteH
Posted: 7 December 2017 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


Hi

Suspect it is Euro4, Reg Date 2007 (07), so likely manufactured circa 2006?.

Got to take it up to Tyneside next week, so I should have an idea by then. If the EMC re-appearers then I will look to remove the Valve
usereuroserv
Posted: 8 December 2017 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 1685
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Location: Leicester


For some reason i did not notice that you had repaired the end of the rubber pipe from the solenoid. That is very likely to be the end of it for now.

Because yours is a Euro4, at some time in the future you will get a similar problem and P0638 will reappear. It's unfortunately inevitable that eventually your throttle body will fail and require replacement. These early units were very poorly designed and i have replaced maybe a hundred of them so far.

Better to know about that and be prepared for it i guess.
userPeteH
Posted: 19 December 2017 5:59 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


Hi

Yes the Dreaded EML came back on returning from South Shields. So Throttle body is the next Move I guess. Have seen one on Flea bay @ £195. The vendor gives Part Number(s):- PART NUMBER: 71724306, 504351131, 504099669, 504345920???. It LOOK`s correct in the Picture?.

That is a Big change from the Quoted Fiat Price which was in excess of 300+vat!.

Pete.

userPeteH
Posted: 19 December 2017 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


PeteH - 2017-12-19 5:59 AM

Hi

Yes the Dreaded EML came back on returning from South Shields. So Throttle body is the next Move I guess. Have seen one on Flea bay @ £195. The vendor gives Part Number(s):- PART NUMBER: 71724306, 504351131, 504099669, 504345920???. It LOOK`s correct in the Picture?.

That is a Big change from the Quoted Fiat Price which was in excess of 300+vat!.

Pete.



Found THIS on Amazon, looks decidedly like the "affected Part" of the Throttle body without the Bend.
At just over £70. If it fits?.

Pete



(Throtle Body-2.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments Throtle Body-2.jpg (59KB - 486 downloads)
usereuroserv
Posted: 19 December 2017 10:33 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1685
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Location: Leicester


Hello.
That picture does look a lot like the latest item minus the plastic pipe and it will undoubtedly be very useful in the future for replacement purposes but not for your needs now. The original item that is probably still attached to your vehicle has an aluminium pipe that is not detatchable from the rest of the body. You will need a complete unit this time. Sorry.
N
userPeteH
Posted: 19 December 2017 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


PeteH - 2017-12-19 7:40 AM

PeteH - 2017-12-19 5:59 AM

Hi

Yes the Dreaded EML came back on returning from South Shields. So Throttle body is the next Move I guess. Have seen one on Flea bay @ £195. The vendor gives Part Number(s):- PART NUMBER: 71724306, 504351131, 504099669, 504345920???. It LOOK`s correct in the Picture?.

That is a Big change from the Quoted Fiat Price which was in excess of 300+vat!.

Pete.




UPDATE:-

Decided to carry out some practical tests, Removed the inlet hose to the Throttle control valve and managed to see with a mirror that the flap v/v was clean and appears to work, Also had a good look at the EGR with an endoscope. Cannot see anything Physical. Connected the Computer via USB the the OBD port and ran Multiecuscan Software. Powered up and the EGR operation appears normal as does the Throttle control valve, with the exception that the re-action of both looked to be slow? Watching via the mirror the Throttle valve closes with a snap and appears to open fully as indicated by the reading on the laptop.

I then removed the Plug from the Solenoid, which instantly brought up the MIL. Turning attention to the Solenoid I removed it from the Vehicle and bench tested it with a Battery (13.2V). Blowing through the ports whilst connecting and disconnecting the power made no difference. So I am assuming the Solenoid is at Fault. There are only two wires so if it don't open and shut it is likely that that is the issue?.

Bite on the bullet time, Just ordered New Solenoid off Flea Bay £60, delivered Fri/Sat. Best price seen, and the correct Part no as On the existing one.

userPeteH
Posted: 23 December 2017 4:14 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Gets involved

Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


Further update. Solenoid arrived and fitted, But a further Mystery. Whilst waiting for part to arrive I Took some Readings on the wiring Plug, Ignition On 8.65V, Engine running 10.85V. I know it`s a CANBUS system, but would have expected to find 12+V (battery Voltage)?

Ran the Diagnostics after fitting and the EGR and Throttle valve Numbers are OK and respond to accelerator (I Think). But there is still a lag of nearly 1minute before the readings return to zero, after the accelerator pedal has closed?. MIL light out (again). I now have to take it for a longish run to see if it re-appears.

Pete
userPeteH
Posted: 24 December 2017 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 246
10010025
Location: East Yorks.


Out of curiosity, In case I have to go the Throttle body or EGR route. Does anyone know what the Correct Part Numbers are for the EGR. and the Updated Throttle Body?
userkevina
Posted: 2 July 2018 11:59 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


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Posts: 267
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Location: Cornwall Rapido 7090


I'm resurrecting this thread because I now have P0638 at nearly 60,000 miles and 10 years old; I did seal the scuttle early though so that may account for the longevity. Having removed the air hose from the TB inlet the valve is indeed more or less stuck, after a bit of tweaking it will close from 30 degrees and I can force it to 90 but there is no way its going to free up.

I'm happy about the parts and the work required but my question is this. There was black oil inside the bottom of the hose (where it was dammed by the TB inlet) and a smear of a coating inside the TB although it really just looked clean but wet. It wasn't "gunky", just like dirty engine oil which covered the back of my hand. Is this normal?
usereuroserv
Posted: 3 July 2018 10:04 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
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Posts: 1685
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Location: Leicester


A light coating of oil is perfectly normal. Not a cause for concern.
userkevina
Posted: 3 July 2018 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


Gets involved

Posts: 267
1001002525
Location: Cornwall Rapido 7090


Thanks Nick
userkachoong
Posted: 5 July 2018 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

Posts: 2




So I'm kinda similar issues with my 2007 2.3 Ducato.

Belching LOTS of black smoke out when revving under load and even while stationary. Don't get any hesitation or stalling, and since I have only just bought the van (no black smoke when I drove it down from where I bought it) it's hard to say if there's any loss of power as I know nothing different. Have checked the various pipes between intercooler/turbo etc, can't see any cracks or splits. The join between the throttle body to the pipe to the intercooler seemed a little loose so threw on a new hoseclip which hasn't resolved the issue.

Took the chance to have a look at the throttle body, the flap seems to be moving freely and springs back to position nicely. Have put some injector cleaner in the tank to see if that quietens it down but no joy so far.

The oil does seem over full, which someone on another forum said could be a sign of injector issues?
userPytlak
Posted: 25 November 2019 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 
Just joined

Posts: 1



Hi Euroserv,

I would like to amend your valuable post where you mention correct part numbers for the throttle body gaskets. You say that there are no studs on the new type throttle body, which is correct but you do not need to buy any screws, you can easily transfer the studs from the old throttle body to the new one, exactly as I did it when replacing mine on 2007 Adria 660SP with 2.3 130HP Multijet. If the studs are badly corroded on the old throttle body you should rather buy new studs, which is better than using screws.



euroserv - 2014-02-28 12:03 PM

Hi Roger,

You can get away with not removing the radiator sometimes. I did one this week and having removed the slam panel I just lifted the radiator up on the right hand side and moved it forwards a bit. This gave me enough room to get onto the awkward bolt with a long extension and standard socket. This bolt is always the most stubborn since it is the only one that is not in a blind hole. The oxidisation builds up on the other end of the screw and starts filling the hole up! On this occasion I was very lucky and it seems that so have you. If the screw had broken; which is more common, you would have needed more room to get things sorted out and that would have been exit time for the radiator.

I do use new gaskets and apply copper or aluminium grease to every hole and thread (to make sure). It makes things a bit smelly when you start it up again while it burns away but it makes the job a lot easier next time. You don't really have to use the new gaskets; I think the old ones should be fine but for the sake of a few pounds when you have done so much seems barely worth it.

The large gasket is 504084278 (£3.92) and the small ones are 504341194 (£1.69) of which you will probably need 2.
The replacement throttle body differs from the original in that it has no studs on the EGR side, so you will need 2x M8 x 25 (or 30) screws to fit the EGR flange to it. Grease them well!

Also apply grease to every single screw that you fit on the front of the van for the slam panel, radiator mounts, bumper and grille panels. You won't regret it in years to come.

Nick




Attachments
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Attachments IMG_0567.heic (65KB - 176 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0566.heic (77KB - 303 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0568.heic (68KB - 119 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0571.heic (84KB - 151 downloads)
userDerek Uzzell
Posted: 25 November 2019 2:04 PM
Subject: RE: FIAT X250 2.3Ltr Engine problem
 


5000500050005000
Location: MODERATOR - 2015 Rapido 640F LHD 2.3ltr 150bhp


Welcome to the Out&AboutLive forums, Martin.

I notice that the four photo-files you have attached have a .heic file extension.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Efficiency_Image_File_Format

These forums are 2005 vintage and their software hasn’t been much modified since then, so I’m not sure whether .heic files can generally be viewed by forum-members.

I’ve converted three of your photos into .jpg files and suitably reduced their size, but I can’t seem to handle the 0571 image. Anyway, the three files displayed below should adequately explain the time-honoured method of employing two nuts to remove studs.

If not, there’s a YouTube video-clip here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRUxyosjzoM

(I’ve now added the 0571 file - I hadn’t realised how large the .jpg version would initially be...)



(IMG_0566.jpg)



(IMG_0567.jpg)



(IMG_0568.jpg)



(IMG_0571.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments IMG_0566.jpg (189KB - 144 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0567.jpg (187KB - 139 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0568.jpg (188KB - 120 downloads)
Attachments IMG_0571.jpg (187KB - 1807 downloads)