Grenfell Tower
userViolet1956
Posted: 15 June 2017 6:58 PM
Subject: Grenfell Tower
 


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I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 June 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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It hardly surprises me she made her excuses and left.....it seems Grenfell tower is where the commoners live, the little people.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40291372

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2017/jun/15/london-fire-17-confirmed-dead-as-police-expect-more-fatalities-after-tower-block-blaze-latest
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 June 2017 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-15 6:58 PM

I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica


And what could she do or say? ........Pretentious posturing means bog all .......



userViolet1956
Posted: 15 June 2017 10:40 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-15 9:10 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-15 6:58 PM

I logged on because I thought I would see some comment about the tragedy that has befallen the poor people in the dreadful fire in London. We all like to knock 'elf an' safety" from time to time but something has seriously gone wrong here. TM doesn't seem to have covered herself in glory by not meeting people who were affected. I note that security concerns have been mentioned as the reason why she did not choose to meet people affected by the tragedy. I'm a little sceptical because she is the PM and therefore likely to be surrounded by people who can protect her from any threat to her personal safety. If any one of us were Prime Minister would we have made the same decision?

Veronica


And what could she do or say? ........Pretentious posturing means bog all .......



I agree Dave that pretentious posturing is meaningless and there is little she could do or say that would make the situation any better, however she is someone who says she listens. She may have been advised to make this decision because of fears of public disorder that not only posed a risk to her but also to others. Few people seem to be coming to her defence. I perceive that the knives are out for her even among those upon whom she could rely for support previously. It will be interesting to see which of her ministers are loyal enough to defend her actions.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:51 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:58 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:52 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I expect we'll learn that councils, short of money, were taking the cheaper option of combustable cladding, not realising it would act like a wick to spread fire quickly. Failure of H&S oversight within these councils and of central safety oversight too. 

And failure of journalists to highlight a known problem?  Theresa May will probably have had no knowledge of this bad decision making but will get the blame anyway.

And the journalists are encouraging more anger, more demands, including a young child ranting at the Mayor of London who has obviously been schooled by someone to deliver a newsworthy performance for the camera.  No respect, no manners, no gratitude for all that they have had at the Taxpayers' expense, just anger and more and more expectation.

Clearly we must remedy the excess fire risks in other tower blocks but let's also stop encouraging bad, demanding and angry behaviour and bad journalism.
userBop
Posted: 16 June 2017 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it


There's no denying that this has been a terrible tragedy but in mind it has also identified the scale and the associated costs of having so many immigrants/refugees in this country.

Between 2004 and 2010 I saw very close-up just how UK PLC worked on the matter of refugee/immigration and the only words that come to mind is: "A total farse of epic proportions".
userPJay
Posted: 16 June 2017 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Surely it's the council who are to blame ? I thought they where stopping building these high rise flats?

seeing the pics of victims , it would appear that the majority of them are immigrants, even the one who's flat (Fridge ) caused the damage. He left the flat door open while warning neighbours , so that did not help. And people carrying suit cases down the stairs would have caused extra problems
As for staying put , as was apparently the order, WELL that in itself is ridiculous , but how many could not speak english???

PJay
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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We're relying on untested witness statements from people who might or might not have even been there so far, so I think we have to take them with a pinch of salt.

How can a domestic fridge "explode" and cause such a rapidly accelerating fire?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:00 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it

Thats already being done https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/may/27/asylum-seekers-silent-scandal-home-office-legal-aid-cuts-refugees but it won't solve the housing crisis. Just another distraction from the elephant in the room that we need to stop choking our cities with the so-called Green Belt and build enough housing. But they don't want to do that because they are making too much money out of the housing crisis and don't want to bring house prices down.
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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When I bought my house (after it was given a clean bill of health by the surveyor) I found upstairs power sockets wired in with 2 core 3amp cable running under carpet and fused at 30 amps. Residential Tower blocks are always going to be dangerous because you nver lknow if you are living above a plonker like that.
So called ''Red Tape'' like Fire Regulations and 'Elf and Safety' have been much maligned of late. But if they had been observed the fire would have been contained in the offending dwelling until the Fire Brigade got thereto put it out - unless they were obstructed by hundreds of people coming down the stairs with suitcases. Thats why people were advised to stay in their flats.
userStuartO
Posted: 16 June 2017 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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John52 - 2017-06-16 12:00 PM ..... we need to stop choking our cities with the so-called Green Belt and build enough housing. But they don't want to do that because they are making too much money out of the housing crisis and don't want to bring house prices down.


To you John52, there's always a "they" who are conspiring to obstruct and exploit.  Isn't that a very shallow and blinkered view of life?
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2017 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I've no idea what refugees has to do with this fire though it was bound to find it's way in somewhere i suppose. I despair about some peoples lack of basic humanity....it's pretty sick.

30 are now confirmed dead with 12 critical and more than 70 still unaccounted for.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-met-police-latest-news-updates-a7793196.html

At least the Queen and Prince William have visited.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:58 AM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:51 AM

Its too horrible for words.
Victims of the housing crisis are angry, and its understandable she doesn't ant to mix with them. We need to loosen the Green Belt to relieve the housing crisis so people don't have to be crammed into places like that. But she daren't say so for fear of reducing house prices and offending the core Tory vote.


Stop taking refugees , send back refugees who aren't real refugees which means most of em , end of immigration , stop our crazy overseas aid ... Money and space freed up no problem without even thinking about it

I see no evidence which suggests that the current or previous governments intend to withdraw from the Refugee Convention Antony so it is likely that we will continue to receive people claiming to be refugees and then to be obliged to make efforts to sort out the genuine from the fake who manage to get here, at least for number of years. John’s link to an article in the “Grauniad” provides an insight into the inadequacies of the systems we have in place to make that sift. I wouldn’t be too hasty in deciding whether the inhabitants of the Grenfell tower come in the “faker” or undeserving category and even if they did I do I believe, as I am sure you do, that they deserved to die.

As far as John’s observations regarding the Green Belt are concerned I note that there are now moves to require local authorities to identify areas of the Green Belt that may be suitable for development. As someone who lives on the outskirts of the Green Belt around London I think that this is all well and good but I worry that those areas that may be released for housing development will become mere cash cows for developers and will do little to ease our housing crisis. We need more social housing everywhere in the UK particularly in areas around major conurbations where people have the best chance of gaining employment. In the 60s when I was growing up our low rise council house with its small garden was just about adequate for our needs. These high-rise blocks in London appear pretty dismal as social housing for families with children or the infirm quite apart from the obvious fire safety issues that have been writ large over the last few days,

Veronica

userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave


With you on that ... Good job the white folk of this country who are the main ones affected by terrorism in this country haven't rioted every time they've had to wait for news of the dead ... WTF does beating up folk have to do with getting answers ???
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 6:56 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM
will do little to ease our housing crisis.


The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.
That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

But they didn't ask why she didn't do a walkabout.
They asked why she didn't meet any of the survivors like Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did
And they got an equally feeble excuse as we did when we asked why she wouldn't debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV
Same Old Tories: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40298473
Looks like if they held the election now Corbyn would be in.

Edited by John52 2017-06-16 7:08 PM
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.


Oh!! Sorry, didn't realise I couldn't make any comments.

Note to oneself.......... Don't make comments until full public enquiry ends in ten years time.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public at this location after these events. I don’t doubt that she is as distressed as anyone about the loss of life. Making political capital out of this is tawdry in the extreme and the degree to which prominent figures in the Labour party resile from doing so will be a measure of their suitability for government in my eyes. We need honest and sincere people in politics and not point scorers.

Veronica
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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John52 - 2017-06-16 7:04 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:34 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun



That might answer the question "why didn't the PM do a walkabout"? Very sensible in my opinion.

Dave

But they didn't ask why she didn't do a walkabout.
They asked why she didn't meet any of the survivors like Jeremy Corbyn and Sadiq Khan did
.


So where did they do their meeting?
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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PS: Looks like Jeremy Corbyn did do a walkabout. I don't think anyone expected that of Theresa May.. But she could at least have spoken to a few of the survivors?
usertonyishuk
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Probably more worrying is some jihadist carrying a can of petrol near some of these named clad buildings in the media.

Rgds
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-16 8:52 AM

I expect we'll learn that councils, short of money, were taking the cheaper option of combustable cladding,


Kensington & Chelsea is the richest borough in the country. Not short of money when you see what they pay their Chief Exec. And the cheaper option would be no cladding as originally built.
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 6:56 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM
will do little to ease our housing crisis.


The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.
That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?


I think you and I would agree John that the scope for corruption is probably more than we would contemplate. I am happy for areas of the green belt to be identified as suitable for development but I want that development to reflect the need for more social housing and I don't trust the private sector to do that. I want local authorities to be given the funds to build social housing on green belt land and to retain the management of it.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:47 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM
I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public
Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.
But she avoided them altogether.
Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 7:55 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:46 PM

John52 - 2017-06-16 6:56 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM
will do little to ease our housing crisis.


The difference in price of land with planning permission and that without is what makes most money - if thats not a recipe for corruption I don't know what is. The more planning permission granted, the less that difference would be and the less scope for corruption.
That aside, surely any new homes will ease the housing crisis?


I think you and I would agree John that the scope for corruption is probably more than we would contemplate. I am happy for areas of the green belt to be identified as suitable for development but I want that development to reflect the need for more social housing and I don't trust the private sector to do that. I want local authorities to be given the funds to build social housing on green belt land and to retain the management of it.

Veronica


Government intervention in the housing market is the problem, not the solution.
Sack the planning committies and let the builders build enough houses. Then competition between landlords will improve standards
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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PS: If you build social housing at below market prices who gets it is as big a recipe for corruption as their planning system.
Wheras if you sack the planners so we can build enough houses the market price will come down, and competition between Landlords will improve standards.
But thats obviously not what they really want is it?. Landlords in the Establishment are making too much money out of the housing crisis the way it is
They only want a free market when it suits them. So what we have is Socialism for the Rich (Landlords).

Edited by John52 2017-06-16 8:08 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 7:47 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM
I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public
Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.
But she avoided them altogether.
Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

It seems she met relatives of the missing in a nearby church.....but then scurried away when the crowd began shouting "get her out" as there were fears May could be "trapped in the church"! She left by a back door to shouts of "coward".......and that's from the Torygraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:23 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-16 8:16 PM

John52 - 2017-06-16 7:47 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM
I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public
Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.
But she avoided them altogether.
Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

It seems she met relatives of the missing in a nearby church.....but then scurried away when the crowd began shouting "get her out" as there were fears May could be "trapped in the church"! She left by a back door to shouts of "coward".......and that's from the Torygraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473


What they shouted they shouted , Im sure she's heard worse ... The local residents are being used by a much more intelligent left wing attempt to politicise the fire ... They are being used and dont realise it
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:51 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 June 2017 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.


Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject
userViolet1956
Posted: 16 June 2017 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-16 8:06 PM

PS: If you build social housing at below market prices who gets it is as big a recipe for corruption as their planning system.
Wheras if you sack the planners so we can build enough houses the market price will come down, and competition between Landlords will improve standards.
But thats obviously not what they really want is it?. Landlords in the Establishment are making too much money out of the housing crisis the way it is
They only want a free market when it suits them. So what we have is Socialism for the Rich (Landlords).


I'm not following where you are on this John. Don't our planning laws and the people who give effect to them serve a myriad of concerns about the safety and well being of all of us? I really can't see how the absence of planning laws enforced by the planners would the best solution to the housing crisis. A system which allows people to by build wherever they like, whatever they like regardless of infrastructure seems a recipe for disaster to me.

Veronica
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 16 June 2017 9:15 PM
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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 7:19 PM

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 6:45 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


Clearly we need to know where Michael Caine was. Just let the fire investigators do their job before commenting.


Oh!! Sorry, didn't realise I couldn't make any comments.

Note to oneself.......... Don't make comments until full public enquiry ends in ten years time.


Now don't be silly, I said fire investigators, not a public inquiry.
userJohn52
Posted: 16 June 2017 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 9:11 PM
A system which allows people to by build wherever they like, whatever they like regardless of infrastructure seems a recipe for disaster to me.

Veronica


Its not ideal but can't be worse than what we have now?
Like the parking regulations - a good idea but taken to such extremes we would probably be better off with no regulation at all?
If they build where there is no infrastructure they will be the losers because nobody will want to buy the houses they have built.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Theresa May is sending Kensington and Chelsea Council £5 million. Which seems to me like throwing money at a spoilt child. They are already the richest borough in Britain.
The problem is not shortage of money - Its Bad Management'
I would be asking why their highly paid 'experts' would rather spend money on combustible cladding than fire sprinklers.
userStuartO
Posted: 17 June 2017 11:55 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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The Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower protests.  Haven't seen anything elsewhere in the media yet but it makes sense that their involvement would account for the rapid mobilisation, perhaps also most of the anger and the violent nature of what was happening at Kensington Town Hall. 

It struck me as unnatural that a child on a man's shoulders who was ranting at Sadiq Kahn ("how many children have died ? .....") with what sounded like a preprepared soundbite outburst. There was another attention-grabbing protester who was banging on about missing family and friends who declined to give any names for them, which sounded very suspicious.

Afro-Carribeans are inclined to react in a highly emotional way compared with British stiff upper lip and stoicism but anger and riotous behaviour?  Muslim women in headscarves aren't usually the ranting sort either.

This tower block fire was a horrible thing to happen and it needs investigating to ensure there are no repeats as quickly as possible - and the displaced residents need to be helped to find somewhere else to stay too.  And if someone needs accomodation in the same arrea to get to their job or whatever, then we should do our best to accomodate that.  But scattering open-ended promises about just to try to quieten the bandwagon activists isn't going to achieve much I would have thought.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-17 11:55 AM

The Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower >

Which is a bit rich for a hard right activist ''newspaper'' that hijacks everything else.
People have a right to be angry. British stiff upper lip stoicism hasn't done them much good has it?
userStuartO
Posted: 17 June 2017 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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John52 - 2017-06-17 12:13 PM
StuartO - 2017-06-17 11:55 AMThe Telegraph is running a front page story today about hard left activists hijacking the Grenfell Tower >
Which is a bit rich for a hard right activist ''newspaper'' that hijacks everything else.People have a right to be angry. British stiff upper lip stoicism hasn't done them much good has it?

What are you saying John, that it's OK to be angry (and violent and accusing of others) even if the occassion is someone else's be angry about?  Even if the people who were directly affected are shocked and grieving rather than ranting and angry about left wing issues?
userPJay
Posted: 17 June 2017 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


A bomb Maybe? He helped the fire to spread by leaving his door open and not containing the fire
PJay
userstarvin marvin
Posted: 17 June 2017 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 8:57 PM

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.


Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject


Good to see you have not lost your sense of the ridiculous.
userantony1969
Posted: 17 June 2017 4:40 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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starvin marvin - 2017-06-17 3:38 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 8:57 PM

starvin marvin - 2017-06-16 8:51 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


There you go getting yourself all hot and bothered again. Probably best discribed as a disturbance or maybe a breach of the peace.


Given its your party thats egged them on to demonstrate thats the kind of answer i'd expect from yourself ... Hot and bothered by the way is a rather unfortunate and ill thought out comment to make to someone regarding this subject


Good to see you have not lost your sense of the ridiculous.



Not at all , I can still see clearly whats ridiculous ... The desperate politicising by the left to sabotage an accidental fire to overturn a government is ridiculous but yet the same people stay quiet only holding candlelit vigils daring not to say Islamic terrorist when they continue to blow our children up ... Thats ridiculous

Edited by antony1969 2017-06-17 4:46 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2017 5:47 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?
userViolet1956
Posted: 17 June 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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It was inevitable that political point scoring would form part of the aftermath of this tragedy. Having started this thread about the Prime Minister’s response I am a little regretful I must say. I have asked myself is it likely that she feels no concern about what happened and the answer must be that this is highly unlikely. Whatever one’s politics the government of the day and especially the Prime Minister is going to face criticism. It is becoming more evident that it was not safe for her to enter the very volatile atmosphere at the site of this disaster. I will have more respect for Jeremy Corbyn if he acknowledges how much easier it was for him to engage with the people who had been affected than the Prime Minister.

For now let us hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

Veronica
userantony1969
Posted: 17 June 2017 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?


Wrong ... Its not petty political points on a motorhome forum you need to be concerned about ... The petty political point scoring as a whole by the left aimed at the gullible has been disgraceful and it started almost immediately after the event ... On here I think everyone is set in their ways and opinions don't change regardless of whats posted ... In the bigger world especially with the young as targets they are swung by nonsense at times , this seems to be one of those moments and its disgraceful
userteflon2
Posted: 17 June 2017 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?





Totally correct Brian I don't often agree with your opinions but having spent 40+ years in the building industry I know the fire regs. are sacrosanct some thing has gone tragically wrong here and it's a human tragedy people died it's a time for little sympathy not a point scoring match./JohnQUOTE]
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 June 2017 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 8:23 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-16 8:16 PM

John52 - 2017-06-16 7:47 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-16 7:24 PM
I can understand that security concerns may have restricted what the Prime Minister could do in terms of meeting the public
Veronica

I don't think anyone expected her to walk among the people like Jeremy Corbyn.
But she avoided them altogether.
Could she not have met some of them in a safe location like the Queen did?.

It seems she met relatives of the missing in a nearby church.....but then scurried away when the crowd began shouting "get her out" as there were fears May could be "trapped in the church"! She left by a back door to shouts of "coward".......and that's from the Torygraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/london-fire-latest-updates-grenfell-tower-fire-victims/

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40298473


What they shouted they shouted , Im sure she's heard worse ... The local residents are being used by a much more intelligent left wing attempt to politicise the fire ... They are being used and dont realise it.

Really? Are you sure? It brought this right wing fascist scumbag out baiting Muslims at a nearby mosque there to help the fire victims.

Sick vile racist thug peddling his usual message of hatred.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-first-grenfell-tower-fire-muslims-help-victims-racist-london-islamophobia-east-london-mosque-a7790991.html

userBulletguy
Posted: 17 June 2017 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-17 6:55 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?


Wrong ... Its not petty political points on a motorhome forum you need to be concerned about ... The petty political point scoring as a whole by the left aimed at the gullible has been disgraceful and it started almost immediately after the event ... On here I think everyone is set in their ways and opinions don't change regardless of whats posted ... In the bigger world especially with the young as targets they are swung by nonsense at times , this seems to be one of those moments and its disgraceful

FGS Antony......58 human beings are missing presumed dead with the figure set to rise.

Show some humanity........show some compassion.........show some respect.

If you have any at all
userantony1969
Posted: 17 June 2017 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-17 7:21 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-17 6:55 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?




Wrong ... Its not petty political points on a motorhome forum you need to be concerned about ... The petty political point scoring as a whole by the left aimed at the gullible has been disgraceful and it started almost immediately after the event ... On here I think everyone is set in their ways and opinions don't change regardless of whats posted ... In the bigger world especially with the young as targets they are swung by nonsense at times , this seems to be one of those moments and its disgraceful

FGS Antony......58 human beings are missing presumed dead with the figure set to rise.

Show some humanity........show some compassion.........show some respect.

If you have any at all


WTF are you on about
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-17 6:55 PM............................Wrong ... Its not petty political points on a motorhome forum you need to be concerned about ... The petty political point scoring as a whole by the left aimed at the gullible has been disgraceful and it started almost immediately after the event ... On here I think everyone is set in their ways and opinions don't change regardless of whats posted ... In the bigger world especially with the young as targets they are swung by nonsense at times , this seems to be one of those moments and its disgraceful

I agree that the political points scoring is disgraceful, Antony, so it seems the only narrow point on which we may differ, is that I think it equally disgraceful that it follows over onto here.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-17 6:41 PM

It was inevitable that political point scoring would form part of the aftermath of this tragedy. Having started this thread about the Prime Minister’s response I am a little regretful I must say. I have asked myself is it likely that she feels no concern about what happened and the answer must be that this is highly unlikely. Whatever one’s politics the government of the day and especially the Prime Minister is going to face criticism. It is becoming more evident that it was not safe for her to enter the very volatile atmosphere at the site of this disaster. I will have more respect for Jeremy Corbyn if he acknowledges how much easier it was for him to engage with the people who had been affected than the Prime Minister.

For now let us hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

Veronica

Just to be clear, Veronica, my comments were not directed against you, or your post. I was what happened next that got to me. These people will have died an appalling death. It seems to me totally lacking in humanity, and completely tasteless, to use their deaths to further irrelevant political arguments.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:37 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Kensington & Chelsea - the council responsible, is a Tory council so any criticism will be labelled Left Wing by Anthony & the Torygraph.
The BBC at least gives some figures so you can make up your own mind http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158 This is not just about the Grenfell Tower residents because others may be at risk.

Theresa May sending £5m to kensington & Chelsea - the richest Borough in the country is like throwing money at a spoilt child. The problem is not shortage of money - its bad management.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 8:19 PM
I agree that the political points scoring is disgraceful, Antony,

How can we say anything about the Tory council responsible for this unspeakable tragedy without being accused of politiical points scoring?
userantony1969
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 8:26 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-17 6:41 PM

It was inevitable that political point scoring would form part of the aftermath of this tragedy. Having started this thread about the Prime Minister’s response I am a little regretful I must say. I have asked myself is it likely that she feels no concern about what happened and the answer must be that this is highly unlikely. Whatever one’s politics the government of the day and especially the Prime Minister is going to face criticism. It is becoming more evident that it was not safe for her to enter the very volatile atmosphere at the site of this disaster. I will have more respect for Jeremy Corbyn if he acknowledges how much easier it was for him to engage with the people who had been affected than the Prime Minister.

For now let us hope that nothing like this ever happens again.

Veronica

Just to be clear, Veronica, my comments were not directed against you, or your post. I was what happened next that got to me. These people will have died an appalling death. It seems to me totally lacking in humanity, and completely tasteless, to use their deaths to further irrelevant political arguments.


Just for a bit of balance Brian ... Those that died in Manchester and London terrorist attacks also died an appalling death and not through any accident , those events also quickly turned to political argument regarding police cuts but I didn't see you taking any stand against that ... Why
usernowtelse2do
Posted: 17 June 2017 8:55 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Location: Rossendale, Lancashire.


PJay - 2017-06-17 3:13 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


A bomb Maybe? He helped the fire to spread by leaving his door open and not containing the fire
PJay


I doubt it Pauline. The chap has been here about 20yr I believe. There is some type of gas in a fridge that is flammable, but how much gas I've no idea. There's also a compressor so a fault in that could be a factor.

Dave
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-06-17 6:41 PM

I will have more respect for Jeremy Corbyn if he acknowledges how much easier it was for him to engage with the people who had been affected than the Prime Minister.
Veronica

Fair point - its a Tor council responsible so it must have been harder for a Tory to engage with them.
Is there any suggestion Jeremy Corbyn doesn't acknowledge that?
But since she didn't talk to any of the victims what was the point of going at all?
Does she want credit for sending £5 million to the richest borough in the country with its council tax a tiny fraction of that paid in poor areas?
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 9:08 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-17 8:55 PM

PJay - 2017-06-17 3:13 PM

nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave


A bomb Maybe? He helped the fire to spread by leaving his door open and not containing the fire
PJay


I doubt it Pauline. The chap has been here about 20yr I believe. There is some type of gas in a fridge that is flammable, but how much gas I've no idea. There's also a compressor so a fault in that could be a factor.

Dave


A spark from thermostat contacts could ignite gas if there was a leak elsewhere.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 5:47 PM

The police are now saying the number of suspected dead and missing is 58, and expected to rise. Whatever their status or origins, these were people. To read some of the comments in this string, one could imagine they might have been rodents. Humanity seems in short supply in some quarters, with this catastrophic failure being used to promote some posters' pet political and ethnic prejudices.

This fire should not have been possible. Each flat is supposed to be a fire compartment that, under normal circumstances of a domestic fire, will retain its integrity so that the fire cannot spread. That is the reason people are advised to stay put while the fire brigade extinguishes the fire. Mass evacuation of the estimated 400-600 inhabitants would lose valuable time, as the staircase would be choked by the evacuees, preventing the fire brigade from gaining access.

There is a procedure for approving the form of construction, the materials used, the way pipes and cables pass from one fire compartment to another, the position and specification of doors, both inside flats and on escape routes, to ensure that these standards are observed, and the work is inspected as it progresses. Occupation can only take place when all approvals have been granted and the finished work certified completed to standard.

This fire did not appear to spread internally, but by breaking out of a window of the flat first affected, and then igniting thermal insulation that had been applied to the exterior of the building.

At 24 storeys, the building will have been a little over 200 feet tall. So, you now have 200+ feet of vertical insulation enveloping the building. It is clear from the pictures that the fire ran up the exterior, so will have broken in to upper floors through windows, either open or shattered by the heat.

My experience of fire regulations in London is that no combustible material may be used on the exterior of a building, even to the extend of insisting that timber battens could not be used to attach metal cladding, and that non-combustible battens must be substituted. National Building Regulations also ban the use of combustible materials in or on the external walls of residential buildings in multiple occupation, for exactly the reason that fire could then spread vertically from floor to floor.

Unless someone has catastrophically relaxed the regulations over the past few years, and I'm unaware that they have, that fire should not have been possible. That it did occur, and that it spread up the building so fast, points to an error of almost unimaginable proportions somewhere in the design, approval, installation, inspection, or certification process.

It is there, and not which politician went walkabout first, or which party had a majority in the council or government at the time, that the answers will be found. The nature of the design, the procedure for approval, the adherence to specification, the inspection regime, and the certification for occupation are all documented, and all those involved at each stage all have copies of drawings, specifications, and contracts.

Because of the high loss of life there will be a criminal investigation, and documents will be combed to establish who authorised what, and on what conditions. The lower floors of the building still have apparently undamaged cladding in place. Those will be examined to verify that what was used was what had been specified. I would imagine tests will be set up at the Fire Research Station to replicate, and observe, how the materials behave in fire, and whether the materials themselves behave as they were supposed to.

When all the facts are known it seems to me likely that prosecution, possibly prosecutions, will follow. Whether those will be of individuals or companies, or both, will have to await the outcomes of the various investigations now proceeding. Only then will we know what went wrong, and why.

It seems to me basic decency to await the facts, rather than continue using a human tragedy on this scale to score petty political points on an internet forum primarily dedicated to motorhoming. Is it just me?



Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
Thats the decision of a politician
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 June 2017 9:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM

Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
Thats the decision of a politician


Remind me John?........For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? ........

More shameless loony lefty bullsh*t ......




Edited by pelmetman 2017-06-17 9:46 PM
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 10:21 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-17 9:45 PM
..For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? ........
[/QUOTE
Well none actually - that was 'New Labour
But thats beside the point
What part of my post do you disagree with. ...
Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
Thats the decision of a politician
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2017 10:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 June 2017 10:42 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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nowtelse2do - 2017-06-16 6:28 PM

I know there are a lot of questions to be asked. My first question would be, " what the hell was in the fridge to enable an explosion that could blow the door off"?

Dave

How about a can of drink? Pressure rises with temperature, so a boiling can of fizz (fire in kitchen) would be liable to burst. Pressure bursts have considerable force. Not suggesting, just speculating.
userJohn52
Posted: 17 June 2017 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158
userJohn52
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:13 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM
Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 9:55 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Edited by antony1969 2017-06-18 10:00 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM.......................I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again

Thanks.

The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Yes but using figures from the BASFA (a trade association whose function is to promote the installation of sprinklers - plus the Beeb used 2012 figures from a BASFA report without adjusting for 2017 prices!)! Nevertheless, the conclusion was that installation of sprinklers would have been a lot cheaper (£K128) than the cladding job (£M2.6), so that hardly supports the idea that this was a cheapo solution.

But, the reason for installing the cladding doesn't seem to have been fire protection, it seems it was because they were upgrading the heating systems in the flats and, under current Building Regulations, they needed to also upgrade the thermal insulation of the building to gain approval for that work. That would have been the reason for upgrading the windows (double glazed etc.) and for the addition of external insulation (installing internal insulation would, presumably, have been impractical), so the cladding would presumably have been added to provide impact and weather protection to the insulation. The product used is manufactured by a French subsidiary of Alcoa, and is (apparently) Reynobond. Looking at the spec, it certainly won't have been cheap.

So, the questions really comedown to whether the correct grade of Reynobond was approved (there appear to be 3, one that has no designated fire performance, one that is classed fire retardant, and one that is classed fire resistant), whether the approved grade was actually fitted, whether the insulation fitted behind the cladding panels was properly approved, and whether the approved material was actually fitted, and if not in any of these cases, why? One is looking for error, incompetence, or possibly, fraud. Interesting mix, no?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-18 7:13 AM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM
Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.

It wouldn't have been, but the person who approved it's use should have been a fire officer.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 11:45 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 12:30 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

Well, they are dead now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

Well, they are dead now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html


Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ... Time will tell if it was unsafe won't it so why don't you let the law do its job and hopefully provide answers rather than second guessing ... £10 million on new light fittings ( do you have statistics to support that claim ? ) ... Here we go ... https://twitter.com/Third_Position/status/875874732222107648 ... It was cos they is black init ... Or like a Muslim woman said on the Beeb it was whites retaliating against Muslim terror acts who set it on fire ... Or like another black fella said it was the rich folks fault who live across the road cos they made the council put on cheap cladding cos they didn't want to look at a horrible building ... Oh dear

Edited by antony1969 2017-06-18 1:27 PM
userBop
Posted: 18 June 2017 1:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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There was a very interesting article on Radio-4 yesterday in which a few of the phone-in guests highlighted the various tendering processes for council-related projects (UK-wide) and how they were fundamentally flawed.

Some of the points highlighted were:

1. Council groups did not have the necessary skilled staff to define the correct specification of tenders during the initial scoping process to potential contractors.

2. Council projects were largely self-supervised by the contractor due to a lack of knowledge and lack of suitably qualified supervisors in the various council departments.

3. The Scope Of Work for a contract would often be redefined by the council after the chosen tender had been evaluated and subsequently awarded to said contractor.

4. The contractor would be asked to make savings during the execution phase of the project.

5. The contractor would need to employ a dynamic strategy to help it stay within budget.

6. It was mentioned that the financial margins (by contractors) for some council projects were only 2% gross of the total contract value which gave no room for error but did give ample opportunity for bits to be left out; i.e. Like the wall-ties problem, or lack of them, in the recent Scottish Governments' School Projects.

The are many other points that could be added in terms of council and contractor deficiencies so I'm convinced there are hundreds of problems out there still waiting to happen.
userBarryd999
Posted: 18 June 2017 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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As was mentioned earlier, There should be a full inquest not just a government led inquiry. There are several petitions calling for this. Here is one. https://www.change.org/p/this-government-must-carry-out-a-fully-transparent-investigation-into-the-grenfell-tragedy-allowing-for-meaningful-participation-of-the-residents-their-families-and-the-surrounding-community-their-voices-must-be-heard

As for the place being unsafe or not. As well as the two girls above who were silenced. Have a read of this by the Grenfell Action Group from November. Chilling reading. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

And theres more. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/

This could topple the Government. Not that they will need much help in that department anyway shortly.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 3:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 1:22 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

Well, they are dead now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html


Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ...

Maybe you should phrase your postings better as you appear to believe people should be grateful for "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block". I've no idea at all where you draw this sort of misinformation from.....no doubt some extremist alt-right blog.



Yes "oh dear" indeed. You couldn't have picked a worse example to post than that though you seem to spend your life dwelling among those sort of sites. Third Positionists go back to the Nazi days and Night of the Long Knives.........neofascists in today's terms. Metzger, US white supremacist and former KKK leader is an advocate of Third Positionism which he promotes in his rag paper WAR (White Aryan Resistance).

Edited by Bulletguy 2017-06-18 3:16 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Barryd999 - 2017-06-18 3:08 PM

As was mentioned earlier, There should be a full inquest not just a government led inquiry. There are several petitions calling for this. Here is one. https://www.change.org/p/this-government-must-carry-out-a-fully-transparent-investigation-into-the-grenfell-tragedy-allowing-for-meaningful-participation-of-the-residents-their-families-and-the-surrounding-community-their-voices-must-be-heard

As for the place being unsafe or not. As well as the two girls above who were silenced. Have a read of this by the Grenfell Action Group from November. Chilling reading. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

And theres more. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/

This could topple the Government. Not that they will need much help in that department anyway shortly.

Chilling reading indeed and mention of reported electrical power surges, dodgy wiring and uncollected rubbish left piled up reminded me of the "Towering Inferno" movie scenes where Paul Newman (architect) first discovers his specified wiring had been replaced for a cheaper but less safe alternative. Later he and McQueen (fire chief) discover building rubble and set concrete blocking a fire door. All dramatic stuff of course, but very real.

Where i used to work we once suffered a serious explosion in one of the powder rooms (small secured building where one single canister was mounted to feed powder to machines for 'live' round loading). The roof was totally blown off and the large heavy double bolted blast door ripped off and discovered almost 150mtr away. Fortunately nobody was working in the area that night though normally it would have been running. Fatalities would have been a certainty. I was working in the block next door and felt an earth tremor, then heard this weird roaring sound. It was an experience i will never forget.

Certainly KCTMO and the Tory led Borough Council have some extremely serious issues to account for and it will prove interesting to see how they respond. Apparently some of the flats were privately owned.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-latest-jeremy-corbyn-attacks-kensington-council-lack-of-resources-a7795656.html
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Bop - 2017-06-18 1:58 PM

There was a very interesting article on Radio-4 yesterday in which a few of the phone-in guests highlighted the various tendering processes for council-related projects (UK-wide) and how they were fundamentally flawed.

Some of the points highlighted were:

1. Council groups did not have the necessary skilled staff to define the correct specification of tenders during the initial scoping process to potential contractors.

2. Council projects were largely self-supervised by the contractor due to a lack of knowledge and lack of suitably qualified supervisors in the various council departments.

3. The Scope Of Work for a contract would often be redefined by the council after the chosen tender had been evaluated and subsequently awarded to said contractor.

4. The contractor would be asked to make savings during the execution phase of the project.

5. The contractor would need to employ a dynamic strategy to help it stay within budget.

6. It was mentioned that the financial margins (by contractors) for some council projects were only 2% gross of the total contract value which gave no room for error but did give ample opportunity for bits to be left out; i.e. Like the wall-ties problem, or lack of them, in the recent Scottish Governments' School Projects.

The are many other points that could be added in terms of council and contractor deficiencies so I'm convinced there are hundreds of problems out there still waiting to happen.

Interesting, but there are plenty of professionally trained and competent consultancies available around the country to fill those skill deficiencies, so why don't the councils employ them when their own resources are inadequate? After all, almost all councils used to have their own in-house construction professionals, but almost all such departments have now been closed down. Why is that?
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 3:16 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 1:22 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 1:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

£10 million 'renovation' is the sort of money people like Rinat Akhmetov or John Caudwell would spend on new light fittings for their apartment at One Hyde Park.

Whether "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year" or not (do you have statistics to support that claim?) does not excuse lax and unsafe housing. This was a preventable accident just waiting to happen and concerns had been raised before......but they were deemed "trouble makers" and ignored.

Well, they are dead now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-london-dead-legal-action-campaign-fire-safety-mariem-elgwahry-nadia-choucair-a7795586.html


Did I say it did excuse unsafe housing ??? ...

Maybe you should phrase your postings better as you appear to believe people should be grateful for "living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block". I've no idea at all where you draw this sort of misinformation from.....no doubt some extremist alt-right blog.



Yes "oh dear" indeed. You couldn't have picked a worse example to post than that though you seem to spend your life dwelling among those sort of sites. Third Positionists go back to the Nazi days and Night of the Long Knives.........neofascists in today's terms. Metzger, US white supremacist and former KKK leader is an advocate of Third Positionism which he promotes in his rag paper WAR (White Aryan Resistance).


People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ... How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?


Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another
userJohn52
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM
People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place?

But they don't see any of the money spent on their rent. That goes to somone else. All they get is a fire trap slave box.
Kensington & Chelsea Council is ultimately responsible for Grenfell Tower, and they have been Tory since 1964 - before it even got on to the drawing board.
So how can we say anything about it without you accusing us of scoring left wing political points?
userJohn52
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:17 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows?


Wouldn't easing the housing crisis be worth importing a little more of our food?
userJohn52
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:23 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:41 AM

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:13 AM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM
Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.

It wouldn't have been, but the person who approved it's use should have been a fire officer.


Unfortunately not had time to find where I read it yet. But I recall it saying the inspection time of such a block had been cut from 6 hours to half an hour by leaving most of it to the landlord.
We've had 30 years of cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, amid far-fetched stories in the billionaire press about 'Elf & Safety Gone Mad'
Also said the cladding on Grenfell Tower is banned in Germany
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-18 7:14 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM
People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place?

But they don't see any of the money spent on their rent. That goes to somone else. All they get is a fire trap slave box.
Kensington & Chelsea Council is ultimately responsible for Grenfell Tower, and they have been Tory since 1964 - before it even got on to the drawing board.
So how can we say anything about it without you accusing us of scoring left wing political points?


When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ...

You keep banging on about "25 grand a year rent free living" but you've provided absolutely no evidence to substantiate this wild assumption. How many of the residents were employed......or are you just going to hazzard a guess at that too?

And tell me Antony.....why are you so concerned about where the victims "originally came from" who have died in such a horrific fire? Where and how is a persons country of origin relevant to this tragedy? Maybe some were refugees fleeing war torn countries, maybe some were white British.......does that really matter? Is there some kind of preferential status in Antony World?

How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???

I explained the ideology behind Third Positionism which was where that Twitter post originated from. If you believe neofascism is the way forward.....then sadly you are more extreme right than i ever thought.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-18 7:23 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:41 AM

John52 - 2017-06-18 7:13 AM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM
Well who actually made that decision? (to spend the money on flammable pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers) Do you know?

No - but I can't believe it was a fireman.

It wouldn't have been, but the person who approved it's use should have been a fire officer.


Unfortunately not had time to find where I read it yet. But I recall it saying the inspection time of such a block had been cut from 6 hours to half an hour by leaving most of it to the landlord.
We've had 30 years of cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, amid far-fetched stories in the billionaire press about 'Elf & Safety Gone Mad'
Also said the cladding on Grenfell Tower is banned in Germany

And in UK according to Hammond.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows?

Milton Keynes.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 June 2017 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Ealing Council have now stepped in

A team of executives from other London boroughs, Government staff, NHS workers and British Red Cross volunteers have been drafted in amid fury over the Conservative council handling of the crisis.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/aishagani/another-london-council-says-it-is-stepping-in-to-deal-with?utm_term=.sox5lVqM80#.vwXxgW1qQG

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/emergency-taskforce-takes-over-grenfell-tower-relief-criticism-chaotic-kensington-council-a7796266.html
userantony1969
Posted: 18 June 2017 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:49 PM

People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from ...

You keep banging on about "25 grand a year rent free living" but you've provided absolutely no evidence to substantiate this wild assumption. How many of the residents were employed......or are you just going to hazzard a guess at that too?

And tell me Antony.....why are you so concerned about where the victims "originally came from" who have died in such a horrific fire? Where and how is a persons country of origin relevant to this tragedy? Maybe some were refugees fleeing war torn countries, maybe some were white British.......does that really matter? Is there some kind of preferential status in Antony World?

How does the site where the video came from effect what was coming out of the black fellas mush ??? ... White fella blacked up trying to cause problems probably eh ???

I explained the ideology behind Third Positionism which was where that Twitter post originated from. If you believe neofascism is the way forward.....then sadly you are more extreme right than i ever thought.


Really interesting history lesson apart where I posted the link from is irrelevant unless you can prove they have somehow doctored the clip to stir up trouble of course
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-18 7:17 PM...............................
Wouldn't easing the housing crisis be worth importing a little more of our food?

Only, IMO, if you believe we can go on doing that indefinitely. Surely, at some point we have to accept that we cannot simply go on importing what we need for survival? It seems a very short sighted policy to me: a bit like Thatcher's policy of not making things but living off financial services and just using the proceeds to import whatever we wanted. Look where that got us.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?


Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 10:16 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM.........................................And in UK according to Hammond.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

"Spreadsheet Phil" might be better advised to stick to being Chancellor of the Exchequer, than trying to play Building Control Officer on the side, don't you think?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 June 2017 10:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows?

Milton Keynes.

They're bleedin' concrete, Paul!
userantony1969
Posted: 19 June 2017 6:35 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?


Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?[/QUOTE

Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them
userViolet1956
Posted: 19 June 2017 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-19 6:35 AM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:11 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 6:51 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:09 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 12:30 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 11:45 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 9:55 AM

£500 per week per unit in Grenfell ... Wonder who paid most of those rents at £25.000 a year ... Suppose its the same in many of Londons tower blocks ... The tax payer pays a lot out for little or no return

Try as I might, Antony, I can't see what relevance that has to the fire.


The same relevance that's been thrown about by the wets regarding the rich and poor of London ... if living rent free to the tune of 25 grand a year in a 10 million quid renovation block is poor then I don't how to describe my poor departed old grandparents lot in life

But the fire?


Its out Brian though the left may be using it to start another

The blocks were built 40 years ago, Antony, to house people who couldn't afford to buy or rent privately, but were needed to provide labour in all kinds of relatively low paid jobs. The social and ethnic make up of the tenants will inevitably have changed over the years, but does that make social housing a bad thing? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think you once said you ran a roofing company. Are all your employees owner-occupiers, or might some live in social housing? Does everyone earn enough to buy or rent privately today, where 40 years ago they didn't?

Whatever, saying people should be grateful to be burnt to death because they didn't have enough money to pay their own rent, which is what you seem to be arguing here: "People should be damn grateful to live rent free in such a place and even more so considering the countries some of those living in the block originally came from", seems completely out of proportion, to put it at its mildest. Do you really mean that?[/QUOTE

Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them


I was taught that poverty was a relative concept like temperature. To describe someone as poor provides a measure of their share of the wealth enjoyed by the society in which they live.

Veronica
userStuartO
Posted: 19 June 2017 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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antony1969 - 2017-06-19 6:35 AM Did I really say or mean they should be "grateful to be burnt to death" ... No I didn't ... The argument by some has been that they are poor and because they are poor they have been left to rot in some cesspit for years ... My point is that if poor is to live rent free to the tune of 25k a year plus other benefits in a 10 million pound recently renovated building then poor aint all that bad is it and I don't think the word poor is the correct word to describe them


Haven't poor (or at least problem) families always ultimately been left to rot somewhere?

I was brought up in Blackburn, Lancashire which was a Labour Town and Council.  There was a lot of social housing and one of my uncle/aunts/cousins families lived in a fairly modern council house.  It was a three bedroom semi and not much different from the three bedroom semi my parents had recntly bought by the time I was leaving home in 1962, after living for most of my life to date in a terraced house with an outside toilet.  My Dad had a good job and my parents new home was neater and had a better garden than my uncle and aunt's place but at least they both had a bathroom and indoor toilet.

It was well known in Blackburn that there was one much better council estate where the houses were all very nice semis with neat front gardens and the aire of good quality private housing about them - but the occupants were all either Councillors or their relatives or nominees.

There were much rougher council estates too and I got the impression that the problem families gravitated there, so that they each looked at the mess their neighbours made of their houses and gardens and lifestyles.

So corruption was probably rife but at the same time the decent people got looked after and the rough ones likewise, but not quite so well.

But I don't think it had much to do with being poor - although the problem families were also such failures in life that they probably would be relatively poor.  Not all poor families are problem families of course.

And were the residents of Grenfell Tower problem families?  It's not clear to me that this was the case at all.  And if they were problem families, wouldn't you have to wonder about how much their own failures and the mess they lived in exacerbated the risk of living in a high rise block of flats, even if the flamable cladding was a big mistake?  If the fire spread up the outside of the building, why did it also spread up the inside?
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM
When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise


They are not getting £25k a year or whatever. the landlord is getting that. all they are getting is a firetrap slave box. We should remember that when considering how grateful they should be.
userantony1969
Posted: 19 June 2017 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-19 9:00 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-18 7:31 PM
When I had a mortgage I didn't see any of that so what's your point ... they are provided with free , yes free accommodation probably without paying much into the system or ever paid anything in ... The rent is paid to the landlord directly on their behalf as they'd probably spend it on necessary things like phones and cigs otherwise


They are not getting £25k a year or whatever. the landlord is getting that. all they are getting is a firetrap slave box. We should remember that when considering how grateful they should be.


Don't be silly
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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So the Royal Borough used illegal cladding to save £6000.
I wondered what their Chief Executive gets paid so looked on their website since they have a legal obligation to disclose it. But that doesn't work either
https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/open-data-and-transparency/transparency-and-open-data/senior-staff-information


Edited by John52 2017-06-19 9:35 AM
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 9:54 AM
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StuartO - 2017-06-19 8:34 AM

If the fire spread up the outside of the building, why did it also spread up the inside?


Residents have said the recently installed gas pipes were not fireproofed as per building regs.
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:16 PM
"Spreadsheet Phil"

I remember him as Essex wide-boy car salesman and thought 'Spreadsheet Phil' was just an image makeover for when he branched out into politics?
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 June 2017 10:19 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:35 PM.........................................And in UK according to Hammond.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/grenfell-tower-flammable-cladding-banned-in-uk-philip-hammond-germany-us-a7795696.html

"Spreadsheet Phil" might be better advised to stick to being Chancellor of the Exchequer, than trying to play Building Control Officer on the side, don't you think?

Possibly......i just spotted it in the news after John mentioned it was banned in Germany. I assume the ban of it's use as a building material came after.....similar to asbestos and red ash.



Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 10:19 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 7:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-18 6:08 PM

Bulletguy - 2017-06-18 12:07 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:46 PM

Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


I read it recently about Thatcher moving fire inspection responsibilities from the Fire Brigade I think in the FT and will try and find it again
The link I posted earlier compares the cost of sprinklers and cladding http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40290158

Apart from the known extreme divisions in the London wealth gap, this bit in that linked article stood out to me.

The International Fire Sprinkler Association (IFSA) says that automatic fire sprinkler systems are the single most effective fire protection measure available, and are able to make up for a wide range of other fire protection deficiencies.

There has never been a multiple loss of life from a fire developing in a building protected by a properly designed, installed and maintained fire sprinkler system. While fire sprinkler systems have been required in new high-rise residential buildings in England since 2007, it is not compulsory to retrofit them into existing buildings. So Grenfell Tower had none.


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.

So, where, in a country that is not even self-sufficient in milk, would you put the cows?

Milton Keynes.

They're bleedin' concrete, Paul!

Eeeeee Brian.........i never had you down as sloooooww!!! Apart from the obvious i thought the emoticon alone would have told you!
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 June 2017 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-19 9:26 AM


So the Royal Borough used illegal cladding to save £6000.
I wondered what their Chief Executive gets paid so looked on their website since they have a legal obligation to disclose it. But that doesn't work either
https://www.rbkc.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/open-data-and-transparency/transparency-and-open-data/senior-staff-information

It's looking that way from that article though will need thorough investigation. The legalities depend at what point it was fitted. Council CE's are six figure salaries.

I used to work in a building where the walls and ceiling were clad with asbestos. None of us knew until sub-contractors came in to work on roof repair. As soon as they discovered there was asbestos they abandoned the job, cancelled the contract and cleared off pronto. They even left part of their scaffolding behind which was still there years later. But in that case, asbestos had been used before it became outlawed.

usersnowie
Posted: 19 June 2017 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I don't know who made the following observation but I think it's very relevant to note, that uk housing standards , public and private are very poor certainly in comparison to Europe.
If any good comes from this it will be also in the BuilDIng Standards we apply to the basic place to live, public or private.
Both of my kids live in apartments in Europe, rented, and the standards and value for money are vastly superior to here.
Been a long time coming, such unnecessary circumstances


From it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'moderFrom it's build history Grenfell Tower seems to be yet another 'modern day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.n day' slum which should have been condemned years ago, but we continue to hold on to these shoddy relics The same can be said for new build estates....tiny little boxes with folk living cheek by jowl. It's just a modern version of 1930's terraced property though possibly poorer built.

UK has masses open land but the only way to realise just how much is taking a flight on one of those rare cloudless blue sky days. Estates are clumped together like wagon trains from the wild west, then absolutely nothing but open land for mile after mile.....until the next estate appears.
Unquote

Regards
Alan b

Edited by snowie 2017-06-19 11:52 AM
userantony1969
Posted: 19 June 2017 12:44 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Talking of poor people like Grendell residents are being described ... On a local church job today and just before having my lunch witnessed the 12 o clock food bag giveaway to some of our poor .... just seven of em here to collect but while the desperate poor were waiting for the much needed food they can't afford 3 of em were texting away on phones and all but one were smoking ... Those food donaters can sleep easier tonight that the needy are eating
userantony1969
Posted: 19 June 2017 1:05 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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More of the poor now looking in their bags and complaining about the biscuits they've got ... apparently the needy hungry poor wanted bourbons ! ... Two of em are at least enjoying the cider they've got from the shop I presume ... We'll it is hot init
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-06-19 1:05 PM

More of the poor now looking in their bags and complaining about the biscuits they've got ... apparently the needy hungry poor wanted bourbons ! ... Two of em are at least enjoying the cider they've got from the shop I presume ... We'll it is hot init


We've just spent £400 million on doing up one of their palaces. Did we get a Thank You for that ?
userJohn52
Posted: 19 June 2017 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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The council responsible for Grenfell Tower, where at least 58 people are now thought to have lost their lives after Wednesday's horrific fire, has been accused of carrying out “unacceptable” financial practises after it emerged the borough had stockpiled £274m of usable reserves following years of chronic underspending." http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/grenfell-tower
So will be £279 million now Therersa May has given them another £5 million.
But then I suppose she wants to be seen doing something?
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 June 2017 6:13 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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snowie - 2017-06-19 11:43 AM

I don't know who made the following observation but I think it's very relevant to note, that uk housing standards , public and private are very poor certainly in comparison to Europe.
If any good comes from this it will be also in the Building Standards we apply to the basic place to live, public or private.
Both of my kids live in apartments in Europe, rented, and the standards and value for money are vastly superior to here. Been a long time coming, such unnecessary circumstances.

It was one of my posts you quoted Alan and you are absolutely right re. "poor in comparison to Europe". I've seen both new build and completed property in Switzerland and they are light years ahead of UK. Yes i know the price is not cheap but they are solidly constructed with attention to the finest detail. Swiss simply never accept 'second best' and shoddy workmanship is unthinkable. That's their 'psyche'....even they will admit that.

No doubt about it land in Switzerland is expensive....but try and find housing estates of "new builds" like we build here, they are virtually unheard of. Most Swiss properties are separated by a good few metres. Even the few city "high rise" blocks are built to a superb standard.

But we also differ in that the majority of British are obsessed with private home ownership where in Switzerland the majority rent. The huge difference there though is even after taking income differences into account, Swiss rental is comparatively low to UK......but they get a far higher standard of place to live in than British would.

A "new build" housing estate was built near where i live a few years ago. About 50 properties crammed into a space Swiss would build half that amount on. Each has a "garage"......but their cars stand out on the drive because even a mid range saloon is too big and God knows what their furniture must be like as the houses are tiny. The properties got thrown up in a matter of weeks and sold at £200 - 250k.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 June 2017 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-17 10:21 PM

pelmetman - 2017-06-17 9:45 PM
..For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? ........
[/QUOTE
Well none actually - that was 'New Labour
But thats beside the point
What part of my post do you disagree with. ...
Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
Thats the decision of a politician


IT WAS STILL LABOUR .......




userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 6:44 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-19 10:04 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 10:21 PM

pelmetman - 2017-06-17 9:45 PM
..For how many years after Thatcher were Labour in power? ........
[/QUOTE
Well none actually - that was 'New Labour
But thats beside the point
What part of my post do you disagree with. ...
Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
Thats the decision of a politician


IT WAS STILL LABOUR .......






The Royal Borough responsible for Grenfell Tower has been Tory from beginning to end. And beyond - with £274 million spare cash left its victims reliant on charity handouts in the street until Theresa May sent them £5 million taxed from poorer boroughs.
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 6:49 AM
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ps as I told RogerC when you type in capitals it apparently upsets the forum software so the reply goes in the quote box.
Instead of typing in capitals can't you just put the meaning in brackets at the side (shouting/screaming/foaming at the mouth/whatever)
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 7:01 AM
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antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


Official inquiries tend to take forever and end up with a whitewash. Especially where the guilty are politicians and lawyers who are experts in obfuscation and delay - aided by the billionaire press who cast slurs on the victims like they did over Hillsborough.
So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how.
I also feel sorry for the police because they have seen this tragedy first hand so must have sympathy wit h the victims. But are forced into opposition with them - and have to police the area afterwards .
userStuartO
Posted: 20 June 2017 8:29 AM
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John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!
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Posted: 20 June 2017 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM

antony1969 - 2017-06-16 6:25 PM

Now that predictable rioting didn't take long did it ... Compassion going quickly when innocent journalists and vehicles are attacked ... Could be the start of fun


Official inquiries tend to take forever and end up with a whitewash. Especially where the guilty are politicians and lawyers who are experts in obfuscation and delay - aided by the billionaire press who cast slurs on the victims like they did over Hillsborough.
So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how.
I also feel sorry for the police because they have seen this tragedy first hand so must have sympathy wit h the victims. But are forced into opposition with them - and have to police the area afterwards .


So it's quite acceptable to beat journalists up then and damage vehicles ??? Londons welfare bill for the working age group in 2011/12 was 36 billion quid ... Not a bad little earner that guvnor ... Poor taxpayer and poor the poor
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Posted: 20 June 2017 10:56 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Those who appeared on Panarama last night weren't in luxury hotels
They have been relying on Charity donations whilst the guilty Royal Borough sits on £250 million.
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 11:02 AM
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antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM
So it's quite acceptable to beat journalists up then and damage vehicles ???

Sounds like the stories they put about Hillsborough Victims. The inquiry will be harder this time. Its the Establishment investigating itself again, but this time the victims are all little people, and those responsible all rich and powerful - they don't need any help from you

antony1969 - 2017-06-20 8:36 AM
Londons welfare bill for the working age group in 2011/12 was 36 billion quid ... Not a bad little earner that guvnor .
- for the Landlords, yes.
userJohn52
Posted: 20 June 2017 11:37 AM
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Good article in the Daily Mail for once? .... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2066702/One-Hyde-Park-Only-9-62-Londons-exclusive-flats-pay-council-tax.html
userJohn52
Posted: 21 June 2017 1:42 PM
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Seems the regulations regarding this cladding are far from clear. Hammonds claim it is illegal may be attempt to cover up the fact the Tory Government did not act on the warnings and make the regulations clear.
More concerned with cutting 'red tape' like safety regulations, ''elf & safety gone mad'etc.
Whatever, the buck passing has started already.
The whitewash will be a long and expensive job.
userStuartO
Posted: 21 June 2017 4:19 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


Edited by StuartO 2017-06-21 4:20 PM
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Posted: 21 June 2017 5:47 PM
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And the bitter irony is council rates there are absolute peanuts in comparison to the property values. I pay the same amount of tax for a small 2 bed bungalow.
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Posted: 21 June 2017 5:59 PM
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StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already. They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards. It sounds almost too good to be true.

Which generally means it is! But time will tell. IF true, then i imagine it will upset a few folk!!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40357280

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

May has called it "a failure of the State" and apologised. Government need to re-think about social housing. It was a huge mistake to sell them off.
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Posted: 21 June 2017 5:59 PM
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Double posted.

Edited by Bulletguy 2017-06-21 6:01 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 21 June 2017 6:14 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially

Edited by antony1969 2017-06-21 6:17 PM
userJohn52
Posted: 21 June 2017 6:21 PM
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StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


As I recall section 106 planning permission requires 25% of the new flats to be social housing,
So I don't know whether these flats will come out of what they are already obliged to provide.
At last those survivors of the fire claiming JSA have at last been told they won't be sanctioned for failing to keep up their job searches and interviews. They were asking the jobcentre and couldn't get an answer. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/20/jobseekers-allowance-rules-suspended-for-grenfell-tower-tenants
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Posted: 21 June 2017 6:54 PM
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antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially


I quite agree. Just spent £400m doing up Buckingham Palace for the German immigrants and did we get so much as a thank you
userBulletguy
Posted: 22 June 2017 6:55 AM
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antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ...

Aka Council houses until Thatchers "right to buy" scheme.


If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially.

"Ship" who in? We need EU/non-EU migrants to do the work lazy British won't do.You'd best start addressing the issue of why we have so many home grown bone idle sods who've never done a days work in their life and have no intention of either. Young single mothers breeding kids like rabbits so they can get priority listing for a house etc.


John52 - 2017-06-21 6:21 PM

StuartO - 2017-06-21 4:19 PM

It seems that a very generous solution to rehousing the survivors of Grenfell Towerhas been found already.  They are to be offered flats in the affordable housing part of a large new development only about 1.5 miles from Grenfell Tower and work is being accelerated there to complete these falts as quickly as possible so that they may move on from July onwards.  It sounds almost too good to be true.


As I recall section 106 planning permission requires 25% of the new flats to be social housing,
So I don't know whether these flats will come out of what they are already obliged to provide.
At last those survivors of the fire claiming JSA have at last been told they won't be sanctioned for failing to keep up their job searches and interviews. They were asking the jobcentre and couldn't get an answer. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/20/jobseekers-allowance-rules-suspended-for-grenfell-tower-tenants.

Good God.



John52 - 2017-06-21 6:54 PM

antony1969 - 2017-06-21 6:14 PM

Social housing ... If we didn't ship em in maybe we wouldn't need so much social housing and that horrendous cost to the London taxpayer in welfare could be reduced substantially


I quite agree. Just spent £400m doing up Buckingham Palace for the German immigrants and did we get so much as a thank you

userpelmetman
Posted: 22 June 2017 8:20 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Looks like those residents who survived will be rehoused in rather sumptuous flats .......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

No doubt John52 and other Labour luvvy's will "still" find something to complain about .....

userBop
Posted: 22 June 2017 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.
userViolet1956
Posted: 22 June 2017 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2017-06-22 8:20 AM

StuartO - 2017-06-20 8:29 AM

John52 - 2017-06-20 7:01 AM .....So the victims storm the Town Hall to protest in the only way they know how....


I got the impression that the protesters were all people who "had friends" in Grenfell Tower, rather than victims themselves, all of whom seem to be adoptin a very low prodfile.  Perhaps they have been spirirted away to luxury hotels, somewhere where the press can't reach them!


Looks like those residents who survived will be rehoused in rather sumptuous flats .......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-latest-victims-rehoused-2bn-kensington-luxury-apartment-block-68-flats-a7800856.html

No doubt John52 and other Labour luvvy's will "still" find something to complain about .....



The headline is misleading Dave as has been pointed out already. If you read on it states “The homes will be in two affordable housing blocks at the site, and were purchased by the City of London Corporation in a deal brokered by the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA).”

“Affordable” doesn’t have a ring of “luxury” about it. We got rid of our Victorian workhouses a while ago so that’s not an option. You’re beginning to sound like a workhouse Beadle. However, I’ll forgive you if you can sing like Harry Secombe, you’re already as funny at times.


Veronica
userViolet1956
Posted: 22 June 2017 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 22 June 2017 11:55 AM
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Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


Ex military already have more help than others, and statistically are more likely to be violent.
Problem with social housing below market rents is deciding who gets one is as big a recipe for corruption as the planning system. Sub letting is illegal but rife. There is a possibility some tenants were not in the flats during the fire because they had sub let them at a profit to others who have perished
The fraudsters will now be in line for a luxury apartment at a peppercorn rent.
The elephant in the room and obvious answer to the housing crisis is to relax planning constraints so we can build enough homes and bring rents down for everybody - not just a subsidized few
Unfortunately the Establishment obviously doesn't really want to fix the housing crisis because they are making too much money out of it

Edit: Just seen Veronica has posted an informative study on ex- military homelessness, Thank You.

Edited by John52 2017-06-22 12:07 PM
userBop
Posted: 23 June 2017 8:39 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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There was a good article on the BBC Brekkie news today in which a fire safety expert highlighted the point about the industry fire regulations and how they had not changed for many years. He stated that there had been a number of major reviews conducted (and submitted to the government) in 2000, 2003, 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2013 and yet there has been no distinguishable changes made by any government.

Interestingly though the report which was written in 2009 highlighted a number of grave failings with regard to how buildings were constructed and what fire retardant materials should be utilised following a fairly serious fire at a multi-level building in the south. The government at the time was consulted and yet still no changes were introduced; all water under the bridge.

Im just wondering why the Conservative Party didn't implement the necessary changes at the point when the first four reports were submitted by the experts? Ah, let me think about that one!
userBop
Posted: 23 June 2017 8:46 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Violet1956 - 2017-06-22 11:22 AM

Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica


Veronica,

I appreciate the post-up but that review was published 7-years ago and it was taken from surveys done in 2008 from what I gather.

The British involvement in Iraq didn't officially cease until mid-2010 while Afghansitan plodded on for years after - and is still going.

The point I make is that it doesn't reflect any true state of the veteran community but I'll certainly print off a few copies and use them to get the fire started when I next go camping with my son.

Cheers,

Andrew



Edited by Bop 2017-06-23 8:47 AM
userViolet1956
Posted: 23 June 2017 9:19 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bop - 2017-06-23 8:46 AM

Violet1956 - 2017-06-22 11:22 AM

Bop - 2017-06-22 10:00 AM

I hope they allocate a few of those posh rooms to the homeless ex-military folk who have fallen on hard times and live on the back streets of London with bugger-all to their names.


This British Legion article is rather illuminating. Having read it I'm not persuaded that the problems faced by homeless veterans in London would be solved or even ameliorated to any significant extent just by giving them a place to live sadly.

http://media.britishlegion.org.uk/Media/2283/litrev_ukvetshomelessness.pdf

Veronica


Veronica,

I appreciate the post-up but that review was published 7-years ago and it was taken from surveys done in 2008 from what I gather.

The British involvement in Iraq didn't officially cease until mid-2010 while Afghansitan plodded on for years after - and is still going.

The point I make is that it doesn't reflect any true state of the veteran community but I'll certainly print off a few copies and use them to get the fire started when I next go camping with my son.

Cheers,

Andrew

I hadn't noticed quite how old it was Andrew so I accept in terms of figures it is not a true reflection of the current numbers of veterans who are homeless but won't the complex problems that they face remain the same? That was the point I was trying to make but not very well perhaps.

Veronica
userJohn52
Posted: 24 June 2017 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2017-06-17 10:36 PM

John52 - 2017-06-17 9:25 PM................................
1 Thatcher shifted the onus on fire prevention from the fire authority to the landlord.
2 Spending money on cheap combustible pretty cladding instead of fire sprinklers is not the decision of a fireman is it?
3 Thats the decision of a politician

1 Not on any project I've even been involved in. If I said where's your evidence for that, what would you say?
2 According to statements made by the senior fire officer involved, as I understand him, yes, it still is. Sprinklers are not a panacea for safety, and have always been second preference to compartmentation. I wouldn't want to bet on which would have been the cheapest, the sprinklers or the cladding, but I'd be a mite surprised if either would prove much different in cost to the other.
3 Well who actually made that decision? Do you know?


Can't find the article I read earlier that said it started under Thatcher. This one says he was informed of self-certification (shifting the safety inspection from the Firremen to the Landlord) in 2007;
https://www.theguardian.com/public-leaders-network/2017/jun/17/architects-grenfell-tower-fire-was-an-avoidable-tragedy
I found it worth reading in any case.
userBulletguy
Posted: 13 September 2017 10:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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An interview shown on Channel 4 news this evening with the only two people who made it out alive from the 23rd floor of Grenfell. It's extremely distressing viewing.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-the-only-survivors-from-the-top-floor-tell-their-story
userLarryDavid
Posted: 14 September 2017 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.
userBulletguy
Posted: 14 September 2017 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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LarryDavid - 2017-09-14 12:58 PM

Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.

Couldn't agree more though i suspect it will be a total whitewash.

Former executive of KCTMO Robert Black resigned from his job three months ago, yet is still being paid a six figure salary as he is ‘concentrating on assisting with the investigation and inquiry’. If that isn't rubbing salt in the wounds then i don't know what is.

He isn't the only one by any means though but i very much doubt we will be seeing any held to account and sent to prison.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/13/grenfell-tower-executive-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation-6926145/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/13/grenfell-tower-executive-robert-black-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation
userantony1969
Posted: 14 September 2017 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-09-14 2:34 PM

LarryDavid - 2017-09-14 12:58 PM

Community spirit of the area after this terrible tragedy has been phenomenal. Went to #Game4Grenfell the other day and it was amazing to see a great show for those in the community including those brave firefighters.

Hope this investigation actually gets somewhere and justice is served.

Couldn't agree more though i suspect it will be a total whitewash.

Former executive of KCTMO Robert Black resigned from his job three months ago, yet is still being paid a six figure salary as he is ‘concentrating on assisting with the investigation and inquiry’. If that isn't rubbing salt in the wounds then i don't know what is.

He isn't the only one by any means though but i very much doubt we will be seeing any held to account and sent to prison.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/13/grenfell-tower-executive-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation-6926145/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/13/grenfell-tower-executive-robert-black-still-on-full-pay-despite-resignation


Why dont you for once just wait until the enquiry has finished rather than rubbishing it on the opening day ... Wild comments regarding future court cases or the lack of help no one ... Just wait
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people
userViolet1956
Posted: 20 September 2017 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

12 people would equate to just under 3.5% of the residents of the tower itself (350 people having said to be living in it at the time) so if your sleight aimed at “the community” is meant to include those living in the surrounding area it appears even less justified based on the facts we have been given so far. I also don’t see that the offences being investigated mentioned as fraud or thefts were said to have occurred whilst the fire was going on as you appear to have assumed.

Of those presently investigated and now facing charges of fraud are this man, who lived in Beckenham

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fraud-suspect-anh-nhu-nguyen-denies-charges-at-crown-court-hearing-10965107

and this woman from Sutton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41161123

So far, I can find only one man convicted of anything who lived near the tower and that was for publishing a photograph of a corpse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/i-didnt-do-anything-wrong-man-who-posted-picture-of-dead-grenfell-victim-on-facebook-shocked-at-a3637851.html

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica


userpepe63
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others(usually Bulleyguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...

userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 11:08 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

12 people would equate to just under 3.5% of the residents of the tower itself (350 people having said to be living in it at the time) so if your sleight aimed at “the community” is meant to include those living in the surrounding area it appears even less justified based on the facts we have been given so far. I also don’t see that the offences being investigated mentioned as fraud or thefts were said to have occurred whilst the fire was going on as you appear to have assumed.

Of those presently investigated and now facing charges of fraud are this man, who lived in Beckenham

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fraud-suspect-anh-nhu-nguyen-denies-charges-at-crown-court-hearing-10965107

and this woman from Sutton

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41161123

So far, I can find only one man convicted of anything who lived near the tower and that was for publishing a photograph of a corpse

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/i-didnt-do-anything-wrong-man-who-posted-picture-of-dead-grenfell-victim-on-facebook-shocked-at-a3637851.html

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica




I don't think folk would be running into the building past the police and fire crews to rob do you Veronica so I think it's fair to assume the thefts were carried out by others in the building , in effect like I said by folk from the community

userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 12:42 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pepe63 - 2017-09-20 12:29 PM

For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others(usually Bulleyguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...



Strange that you choose to publicly have a go at Veronica regarding my post which you obviously find upsetting "for heaven's sake" ... May I suggest next time PM your target with your drama queen rollicking if you don't want the thread to continue ... By the way it looks like I've posted 700 or so more posts than you over the seven years we've both been on here ... Do the maths as to how many that works out more than you per day over that time ? ... If I spend too much time on here then someone else does too

Edited by antony1969 2017-09-20 12:47 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 20 September 2017 1:50 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 11:08 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica

He can't wait though!!

Tbh i never even bothered opening the link.....a cursory glance over his potty post was enough to tell me it was just another typical Antony xenophobic rant.


pepe63 - 2017-09-20 12:29 PM

For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others (usually Bulletguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...

Exactly......using the same old stale bait that's been on his hook for years. He might get more 'bites' if he chucked out some decent bait now and then!
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 3:44 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2017-09-20 1:50 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 11:08 AM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 6:23 AM

http://news.sky.com/story/grenfell-tower-fire-death-toll-may-be-lower-than-first-feared-police-say-11043094 ... Fraud , thefts ... Who'd have thought it possible ... The community that stands together were robbing off each other as the fire was going and others have since attempted to benefit from the tragedy ... Wheres the fella who packed his wife and kids off , packed his bags and his fridge exploded ??? ... Nice people


The statement in the article from which you draw your conclusions appears to be “Detectives are also looking into eight cases of fraud involving people who claimed money following the disaster and four possible thefts from flats on the lower levels of the tower block”.

Where in that statement is it indicated that those being investigated form part of “the community” and how does it stack up that they are in some way representative of the morals of the entire community?

I suggest that you ought to follow your own advice Antony and just wait until these investigations are complete before drawing any conclusions.

Veronica

He can't wait though!!

Tbh i never even bothered opening the link.....a cursory glance over his potty post was enough to tell me it was just another typical Antony xenophobic rant.


pepe63 - 2017-09-20 12:29 PM

For heaven's sake Veronica, why on earth did you even respond to such a post...?

It was clearly just another of his 6-6.30am Bile-bulletins, posted with the intention of goading others (usually Bulletguy) into a response, in the hope it'd help fill his day...

They waste enough of their own time, don't let the forum's bitter, resentful time-sponges waste too much of yours...

Exactly......using the same old stale bait that's been on his hook for years. He might get more 'bites' if he chucked out some decent bait now and then!


"Xenophobic rant" ... Who to , what race or nationality did I pick on ? ... If it's allowed you to use your favourite word and take some pleasure then all's good ... Enjoy
userTracker
Posted: 20 September 2017 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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This forum would be a better and more interesting place if the usual suspects would stop trying to score points and impress everyone else, which they fail to do, as well as reduce their postings of boring monotonous and repetitive rubbish.

Edited by Tracker 2017-09-20 5:12 PM
userViolet1956
Posted: 20 September 2017 5:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2017-09-20 5:11 PM

This forum would be a better and more interesting place if the usual suspects would stop trying to score points and impress everyone else, which they fail to do, as well as reduce their postings of boring monotonous and repetitive rubbish.



I admit that I respond all too quickly to provocation at times. Pepe had a point. More discipline and effective time management should be my mantra; ‘tis better perhaps to give some posts the attention they deserve. Have you got any more jokes for us Rich? I am in need of some light relief from the cares the day.

Veronica
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 5:27 PM

Tracker - 2017-09-20 5:11 PM

This forum would be a better and more interesting place if the usual suspects would stop trying to score points and impress everyone else, which they fail to do, as well as reduce their postings of boring monotonous and repetitive rubbish.



I admit that I respond all too quickly to provocation at times. Pepe had a point. More discipline and effective time management should be my mantra; ‘tis better perhaps to give some posts the attention they deserve. Have you got any more jokes for us Rich? I am in need of some light relief from the cares the day.

Veronica


Yep ... Poor defenceless little washer woman Veronica was provoked and unable to control herself in responding to a post that mentioned no names and had the word "community" in it that according to some half wit demands outrage and a 70s style xenophobic name calling response ... I thought poor defenceless little lady Veronica had bigger balls than most of the blokes on here and wouldn't appreciate a public roasting ... How wrong one can be
userTracker
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2017-09-20 5:53 PM
Yep ... Poor defenceless little washer woman Veronica was provoked and unable to control herself in responding to a post that mentioned no names and had the word "community" in it that according to some half wit demands outrage and a 70s style xenophobic name calling response ... I thought poor defenceless little lady Veronica had bigger balls than most of the blokes on here and wouldn't appreciate a public roasting ... How wrong one can be


That is a thoroughly nasty and needless thing to post Antony and I hope that Veronica reports it to the Administrators.
That is exactly what I mean about unprovoked nastiness often allegedly disguised as humour degrading the forum.
userViolet1956
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


2000500100252525


antony1969 - 2017-09-20 5:53 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 5:27 PM

Tracker - 2017-09-20 5:11 PM

This forum would be a better and more interesting place if the usual suspects would stop trying to score points and impress everyone else, which they fail to do, as well as reduce their postings of boring monotonous and repetitive rubbish.



I admit that I respond all too quickly to provocation at times. Pepe had a point. More discipline and effective time management should be my mantra; ‘tis better perhaps to give some posts the attention they deserve. Have you got any more jokes for us Rich? I am in need of some light relief from the cares the day.

Veronica


Yep ... Poor defenceless little washer woman Veronica was provoked and unable to control herself in responding to a post that mentioned no names and had the word "community" in it that according to some half wit demands outrage and a 70s style xenophobic name calling response ... I thought poor defenceless little lady Veronica had bigger balls than most of the blokes on here and wouldn't appreciate a public roasting ... How wrong one can be


How on earth did you discover I was a slave to the overflowing laundry basket Antony? My cover has been blown. There I was pretending to have an interest in the big issues of the day.


Veronica
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tracker - 2017-09-20 6:01 PM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 5:53 PM
Yep ... Poor defenceless little washer woman Veronica was provoked and unable to control herself in responding to a post that mentioned no names and had the word "community" in it that according to some half wit demands outrage and a 70s style xenophobic name calling response ... I thought poor defenceless little lady Veronica had bigger balls than most of the blokes on here and wouldn't appreciate a public roasting ... How wrong one can be


That is a thoroughly nasty and needless thing to post Antony and I hope that Veronica reports it to the Administrators.
That is exactly what I mean about unprovoked nastiness often allegedly disguised as humour degrading the forum.


From the man who re-invented himself on here after being banned ... You report it Richard in your new moderator role but first lay out exactly why its thoroughly nasty
userantony1969
Posted: 20 September 2017 6:51 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 6:18 PM

antony1969 - 2017-09-20 5:53 PM

Violet1956 - 2017-09-20 5:27 PM

Tracker - 2017-09-20 5:11 PM

This forum would be a better and more interesting place if the usual suspects would stop trying to score points and impress everyone else, which they fail to do, as well as reduce their postings of boring monotonous and repetitive rubbish.



I admit that I respond all too quickly to provocation at times. Pepe had a point. More discipline and effective time management should be my mantra; ‘tis better perhaps to give some posts the attention they deserve. Have you got any more jokes for us Rich? I am in need of some light relief from the cares the day.

Veronica


Yep ... Poor defenceless little washer woman Veronica was provoked and unable to control herself in responding to a post that mentioned no names and had the word "community" in it that according to some half wit demands outrage and a 70s style xenophobic name calling response ... I thought poor defenceless little lady Veronica had bigger balls than most of the blokes on here and wouldn't appreciate a public roasting ... How wrong one can be


How on earth did you discover I was a slave to the overflowing laundry basket Antony? My cover has been blown. There I was pretending to have an interest in the big issues of the day.


Veronica


Seems you still have your sense of humour Veronica unlike some
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 March 2018 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

userantony1969
Posted: 16 March 2018 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2018 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM


Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989


What was said was that the fire resistance requirement for the front doors fitted to flats at Grenfell Tower was 30 minutes. The requirement is set through the Building Regulations.

The police, presumably on the basis of reasonable suspicion, removed an undamaged door and send it for a fire test, where it failed after 15 minutes. So, the doors do not comply with Building Regulations. That does not mean that all 30 mins f/r doors are deficient: it merely means that door, as tested, was deficient. Other doors from Grenfell, and presumably other buildings, will now be tested.

It is clear that the Grenfell door was of the wrong type, and it is possible that is the result of accident, incompetence, or fraud, either on the part of the specifier, the manufacturer, the supplier, the fitter, or a combination thereof. That will be revealed in due course.

Primary responsibility for ensuring that the correct door is fitted lies with the building owner and, through the building owner, down the whole chain of supply, from those who specified the door, to those who installed it. That will, again, be revealed in due course.

What was Javid supposed to say? "Oh my Gawd, all fire doors on all buildings are now suspect, so everyone please panic?

Any such risk only arises in the event of a fire. Fires, fortunately, are not that common in comparable buildings. When the doors have been subjected to further testing, and doors in comparable buildings have been inspected to confirm compliance, any that are found to be defective can be replaced. Until then, there is little in practical terms that can be done, and even less can be achieved by fomenting widespread panic.

Though what the Hell that has to do with the honesty, nationality, or preferences for recreational drugs, of the inhabitants, living and/or dead, totally escapes me.

Political tribalism has an awful lot to answer for!

Edited by Brian Kirby 2018-03-16 10:14 AM
userStuartO
Posted: 16 March 2018 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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As I recall this fire spread quickly partly because the occupier of the flat left the door open.

Of course the extra 15 minutes of fire resistance of the door might have helped some of those who stayed in their flats waiting to be rescued.


Edited by StuartO 2018-03-16 10:59 AM
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 March 2018 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-16 10:13 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM


Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989


What was said was that the fire resistance requirement for the front doors fitted to flats at Grenfell Tower was 30 minutes. The requirement is set through the Building Regulations.

The police, presumably on the basis of reasonable suspicion, removed an undamaged door and send it for a fire test, where it failed after 15 minutes. So, the doors do not comply with Building Regulations. That does not mean that all 30 mins f/r doors are deficient: it merely means that door, as tested, was deficient. Other doors from Grenfell, and presumably other buildings, will now be tested.

It is clear that the Grenfell door was of the wrong type, and it is possible that is the result of accident, incompetence, or fraud, either on the part of the specifier, the manufacturer, the supplier, the fitter, or a combination thereof. That will be revealed in due course.

Primary responsibility for ensuring that the correct door is fitted lies with the building owner and, through the building owner, down the whole chain of supply, from those who specified the door, to those who installed it. That will, again, be revealed in due course.

What was Javid supposed to say? "Oh my Gawd, all fire doors on all buildings are now suspect, so everyone please panic?

Any such risk only arises in the event of a fire. Fires, fortunately, are not that common in comparable buildings. When the doors have been subjected to further testing, and doors in comparable buildings have been inspected to confirm compliance, any that are found to be defective can be replaced. Until then, there is little in practical terms that can be done, and even less can be achieved by fomenting widespread panic.

It's an important safety factor though Brian and the failure time is pretty significant, not just by a couple of minutes but half the required standard. That's unacceptable.

I don't know about domestic rated fire doors as i've never lived anywhere that required them but my workplace had industrial ones all over the place. We used to joke about them as we all knew if ever the place suffered an explosion, no fire door would save us but they were a legal requirement and i remember once the s**te hitting the fan when one was found with a broken lock (the plastic part to the bolt) and it had gone unnoticed. We did once suffer a pretty serious explosion in one of the powder cell rooms which ripped a "blast proof" (so called!) door off and eventually discovered almost 200 metres away. Fortunately nobody was in the block at the time but a major inquiry went on for six months.

No i think Javid should have said, "as a result of what we've found at Grenfell, fire doors are to be replaced in all tower block buildings". I'd feel more confident in that than being told "the risk is fairly low". That's not good enough and imo, a pretty dismissive remark.

Not quite the same but similar, look at how vehicle manufacturers react when any fault is found in a new model. All between whatever dates concerned get recalled by the factory to have 'X' modification/part fitted. They act very proactively because it's not just reputation of the brand at stake, potentially it's peoples lives.

Though what the Hell that has to do with the honesty, nationality, or preferences for recreational drugs, of the inhabitants, living and/or dead, totally escapes me.

Political tribalism has an awful lot to answer for!

I agree and find it quite sad a tiny minority seek to use such a horrendous tragedy as a platform to spout forth their 'tribalist' views.

I've been in contact with one of the relatives of this young couple who lost their lives on the 23rd floor. They are just two of the 71 killed. It's an interview which won't ever leave my mind and would do some a power of good to watch and listen.......but i doubt they will.

https://www.channel4.com/news/italian-parents-of-grenfell-victim-thank-the-british-people-for-support
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2018 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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StuartO - 2018-03-16 10:55 AM

As I recall this fire spread quickly partly because the occupier of the flat left the door open. Of course the extra 15 minutes of fire resistance of the door might have helped some of those who stayed in their flats waiting to be rescued.

Not as I understand it, Stuart. The fire spread up the outside of the building via the flammable insulation and cladding. A fire started in the kitchen of one of the flats, reportedly caused by a fridge. It appears that the fire was contained within the kitchen until the kitchen window failed under the heat, at which point the fire "flashed over" and attacked the flammable cladding and insulation on the outside wall. This allowed the fire to spread up and out from that flat, the heat shattering the windows of other flats as it went, so setting fire to their interiors in succession. It is at this point that the fire resistance of the front doors becomes critical as, with a growing number of flats on fire, if the front doors fail to contain the fire, the escape stair will be inaccessible to the occupants. Those two factors together probably explain the large number of deaths.

It is quite possible that numerous people left their doors open as they escaped, but as the doors were fire doors, all should have been fitted with automatic closers, so all should have closed once the last occupant had left. However, self-closing doors bring a nuisance factor (which is why one can often see them propped open with a fire extinguisher in office blocks ), so it is possible some residents may have removed or disabled the self-closers. Even so, with the fire spreading rapidly up the outside of the building, whether or not the doors were left open will have little impact on the speed at which it spread. What it would have affected, as above, is the ability of residents from upper floors to get down the fire escape.

These buildings were designed to contain fire in any flat in which it started, and as part of that design the external walls were required to be non-flammable precisely to prevent it spreading externally. The installation of flammable insulation and cladding completely negated the fire compartmentation of the original design, substituting nothing in its place. Take away that insulation and cladding, and the fire could not have spread as it did.

The first fire fighters to attend had reportedly extinguished the fire in the kitchen and were leaving the building, when their colleagues outside drew their attention to fire on the outside of the building, of which, from the inside, they had been unaware. They did not, at that point, have the necessary high reach hoses and ladders (because, with non-flammable external walls there would not be an external fire) and, by the time these had arrived, the fire was hopelessly out of control.

As I said, all this is what I have understood since the fire. I'm more than happy to be corrected if anyone has gained better information in the meantime.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2018 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 3:48 PM............................No i think Javid should have said, "as a result of what we've found at Grenfell, fire doors are to be replaced in all tower block buildings". I'd feel more confident in that than being told "the risk is fairly low". That's not good enough and imo, a pretty dismissive remark..................................

But, fire resisting doors have to be tested in order to be sold as fire resisting. They are coded with coloured inserts to identify them. They usually have intumescent strips let into their edges that will swell in the presence of heat to provide a complete seal against the passage of smoke. It would be an enormous task, taking considerable time, to replace the front doors on every tower block throughout the UK, and would require a major diversion of resources by joinery manufacturers to produce the necessary quantity of doors.

Besides which, there is no logical reason to suspect that all fire doors will fail in the same way as this one door failed. The first logical step would be to test a few more doors and then, ifmore fail, to launch an inspection all fire doors in multi-story residential buildings. I obviously don't know, but I would be very surprised if the great majority of such doors were found to be of the wrong type. Then, any doors that are of the wrong type, or are from the same manufacturer as the Grenfell doors (assuming that the door is, actually, defective - as it is still possible that the door in question was not manufactured to be a 30 min fire door, but was fitted in error), should be replaced.

People are already jittery enough about high rise residential buildings so, until there is some evidence of a wider problem, I think it would be irresponsible to cause further alarm in the light of a disaster that was not caused as a result of a failed fire door, but by the application of (I think illegal) flammable insulation and cladding to the external walls, giving any fire the potential to spread externally so negating the fire performance of the building.

Yes, fire doors are important but, relative to flammable insulation and cladding, they aren't that significant a contributor to fire spread.
userantony1969
Posted: 16 March 2018 7:09 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-16 10:13 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM


Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989


What was said was that the fire resistance requirement for the front doors fitted to flats at Grenfell Tower was 30 minutes. The requirement is set through the Building Regulations.

The police, presumably on the basis of reasonable suspicion, removed an undamaged door and send it for a fire test, where it failed after 15 minutes. So, the doors do not comply with Building Regulations. That does not mean that all 30 mins f/r doors are deficient: it merely means that door, as tested, was deficient. Other doors from Grenfell, and presumably other buildings, will now be tested.

It is clear that the Grenfell door was of the wrong type, and it is possible that is the result of accident, incompetence, or fraud, either on the part of the specifier, the manufacturer, the supplier, the fitter, or a combination thereof. That will be revealed in due course.

Primary responsibility for ensuring that the correct door is fitted lies with the building owner and, through the building owner, down the whole chain of supply, from those who specified the door, to those who installed it. That will, again, be revealed in due course.

What was Javid supposed to say? "Oh my Gawd, all fire doors on all buildings are now suspect, so everyone please panic?

Any such risk only arises in the event of a fire. Fires, fortunately, are not that common in comparable buildings. When the doors have been subjected to further testing, and doors in comparable buildings have been inspected to confirm compliance, any that are found to be defective can be replaced. Until then, there is little in practical terms that can be done, and even less can be achieved by fomenting widespread panic.

Though what the Hell that has to do with the honesty, nationality, or preferences for recreational drugs, of the inhabitants, living and/or dead, totally escapes me.

Political tribalism has an awful lot to answer for!


I thought the post title was Grenfell Tower Brian so my post was defo Grenfell related wasn't it ... I'm sorry if mentioning the fraudulent claims many have made with regards to the fire upsets your delicate stomach but I didn't make the dodgy claims on the back of the dead they did ... Have I somewhere told a lie ??? ... No didn't think so and what the hell political tribalism has to do with right and wrong I don't know
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-16 7:09 PM...................................
I thought the post title was Grenfell Tower Brian so my post was defo Grenfell related wasn't it ... I'm sorry if mentioning the fraudulent claims many have made with regards to the fire upsets your delicate stomach but I didn't make the dodgy claims on the back of the dead they did ... Have I somewhere told a lie ??? ... No didn't think so and what the hell political tribalism has to do with right and wrong I don't know

I know what I said Antony, most of which was not relevant to your comments, so no need to repeat it all. Yes, the title is Grenfell Tower, and the post was started in relationship to the fire, and the numbers killed and injured by it.

The post you replied against was Bullet's, commenting on the discovery of defective fire doors to flats. That's your context, so no, I don't see how you comments relate to what was being discussed.

Still, any peg to hang a (grubby) hat on, eh?
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 March 2018 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-16 6:44 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-16 3:48 PM............................No i think Javid should have said, "as a result of what we've found at Grenfell, fire doors are to be replaced in all tower block buildings". I'd feel more confident in that than being told "the risk is fairly low". That's not good enough and imo, a pretty dismissive remark..................................

But, fire resisting doors have to be tested in order to be sold as fire resisting. They are coded with coloured inserts to identify them. They usually have intumescent strips let into their edges that will swell in the presence of heat to provide a complete seal against the passage of smoke. It would be an enormous task, taking considerable time, to replace the front doors on every tower block throughout the UK, and would require a major diversion of resources by joinery manufacturers to produce the necessary quantity of doors.

Besides which, there is no logical reason to suspect that all fire doors will fail in the same way as this one door failed. The first logical step would be to test a few more doors and then, ifmore fail, to launch an inspection all fire doors in multi-story residential buildings. I obviously don't know, but I would be very surprised if the great majority of such doors were found to be of the wrong type. Then, any doors that are of the wrong type, or are from the same manufacturer as the Grenfell doors (assuming that the door is, actually, defective - as it is still possible that the door in question was not manufactured to be a 30 min fire door, but was fitted in error), should be replaced.

People are already jittery enough about high rise residential buildings so, until there is some evidence of a wider problem, I think it would be irresponsible to cause further alarm in the light of a disaster that was not caused as a result of a failed fire door, but by the application of (I think illegal) flammable insulation and cladding to the external walls, giving any fire the potential to spread externally so negating the fire performance of the building.

Yes, fire doors are important but, relative to flammable insulation and cladding, they aren't that significant a contributor to fire spread.

Aren't the fire doors (in tower blocks) just fitted at the entry/exit point of each stairwell? If so then in the case of Grenfell that would only be 24 doors which doesn't seem much to pay out by the few tower blocks we have in UK.

Maybe the future of tower block residential builds is questionable and perhaps we should be looking at alternatives? Certainly the cladding issue was something i believe was raised by residents numerous times....but they were ignored.
userantony1969
Posted: 17 March 2018 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 11:58 AM

antony1969 - 2018-03-16 7:09 PM...................................
I thought the post title was Grenfell Tower Brian so my post was defo Grenfell related wasn't it ... I'm sorry if mentioning the fraudulent claims many have made with regards to the fire upsets your delicate stomach but I didn't make the dodgy claims on the back of the dead they did ... Have I somewhere told a lie ??? ... No didn't think so and what the hell political tribalism has to do with right and wrong I don't know

I know what I said Antony, most of which was not relevant to your comments, so no need to repeat it all. Yes, the title is Grenfell Tower, and the post was started in relationship to the fire, and the numbers killed and injured by it.

The post you replied against was Bullet's, commenting on the discovery of defective fire doors to flats. That's your context, so no, I don't see how you comments relate to what was being discussed.

Still, any peg to hang a (grubby) hat on, eh?


Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ... Sorry if Grenfell criminality isn't what you want to read about
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 March 2018 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 11:58 AM

I know what I said Antony, most of which was not relevant to your comments, so no need to repeat it all. Yes, the title is Grenfell Tower, and the post was started in relationship to the fire, and the numbers killed and injured by it.


Maybe it's time to start a thread about those who are trying to profit from it? .......

Both legally and illegally ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 3:52 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-03-17 3:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 11:58 AM

I know what I said Antony, most of which was not relevant to your comments, so no need to repeat it all. Yes, the title is Grenfell Tower, and the post was started in relationship to the fire, and the numbers killed and injured by it.


Maybe it's time to start a thread about those who are trying to profit from it? .......

Both legally and illegally ........


Fire away, then, Dave. Be interesting to who responds.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 March 2018 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:52 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.


But he didn't quote BG's post did he? .......

Just sayin .......That you're trying to put words into Antony's mouth .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 17 March 2018 4:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-03-17 3:11 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 11:58 AM

I know what I said Antony, most of which was not relevant to your comments, so no need to repeat it all. Yes, the title is Grenfell Tower, and the post was started in relationship to the fire, and the numbers killed and injured by it.


Maybe it's time to start a thread about those who are trying to profit from it? .......

Both legally and illegally ........


Fire away, then, Dave. Be interesting to who responds.


Thinking about it .......But I'm currently on overload with being early retired ........I never realised doing nothing took up so much time ............

Plus I already have my Brexit agenda which is I hate to say it more important than a tragedy caused by a fridge .........

userantony1969
Posted: 17 March 2018 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:52 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.


But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 1:39 PM.................................Aren't the fire doors (in tower blocks) just fitted at the entry/exit point of each stairwell? If so then in the case of Grenfell that would only be 24 doors which doesn't seem much to pay out by the few tower blocks we have in UK.

Maybe the future of tower block residential builds is questionable and perhaps we should be looking at alternatives? Certainly the cladding issue was something i believe was raised by residents numerous times....but they were ignored.

No. Because the fire fighting concept is of compartmentation, each flat being constructed to contain the fire for a minimum period of time. Floors and separating walls are (usually) 1 hour, and any doors in those walls are (usually) 30 minutes. The idea is to allow time for a) occupants of a flat where a fire starts to escape in safety and call the fire brigade, and b) to give time for the fire brigade to arrive, deal with the fire, and assess the risk to occupants of other flats, before the fire can spread to other flats.

The idea is that the brigade then decides the extent to which evacuation of other flats may be necessary, and provide whatever assistance may be required to assist those affected to leave. This reduces the risk of large numbers all trying to evacuate at the same time.

It is a well tried and tested methodology, but it relies implicitly on the fire compartmentation periods being achieved and maintained, and above all on the external walls not allowing a fire to spread externally, so leap-frogging across compartment barriers. That is why the use of flammable external insulation and cladding at Grenfell had such disastrous consequences.

The fire brigade would have expected the fire compartmentation to be as designed, and the standard advice to residents is that the safest thing to do is to remain in their flats, windows and doors closed, until advised otherwise by the fire brigade.

Apparently, the first fire fighters on the scene had quickly dealt with the fire inside the flat, but were unaware that the fire had escaped into the cladding until alerted by their colleagues outside. Even then, they did not at first understand what was happening because their training was based on the external walls being non flammable. They then had to radio for further rigs to deal with the external fire and, because of the speed at which the fire spread externally, by the time those rigs were deployed the fire was out of control.

This necessitated a full scale evacuation of the building, for which the escape stairs were inadequate, because they had not been designed on that basis. The result was chaos on the stairs, which would have been full of people of all ages and varying degrees of mobility and agility. The burning cladding created dense smoke externally that entered through vents intended to evacuate smoke from a fire within the building, so reducing visibility on the stairs and no doubt creating a measure of panic. In the face of all of this, other fire fighters were trying to make their ways up the stairs to reach anyone still remaining or needing assistance.

It is a nightmare vision that only arose because of the illegal use of flammable insulation and cladding. The building regulations are abundantly clear on the need for external cladding on tall, multi occupancy, residential buildings, to be non-flammable, and I cannot (yet) begin to understand how an error of such magnitude could possibly have been made. It is already mired in politics, and I fear that the eventual enquiry report may be clouded by the political game playing. I hope it will not, and that the trail of evidence showing how that catastrophic error came to be made will be forensic and irrefutable. It needs to be.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-03-17 3:56 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:52 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.


But he didn't quote BG's post did he? .......

Just sayin .......That you're trying to put words into Antony's mouth .......


I do sometimes wish you'd read before you post, Dave! I didn't say that Antony had quoted BG. It was Antony's (false) claim that I'd done so, whereas what I had I said was that he'd replied to BG with his irrelevant post about foreign type folk and cannabis farms - as your above cut and paste demonstrates. Strewth!
userantony1969
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:15 PM

pelmetman - 2018-03-17 3:56 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:52 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.


But he didn't quote BG's post did he? .......

Just sayin .......That you're trying to put words into Antony's mouth .......


I do sometimes wish you'd read before you post, Dave! I didn't say that Antony had quoted BG. It was Antony's (false) claim that I'd done so, whereas what I had I said was that he'd replied to BG with his irrelevant post about foreign type folk and cannabis farms - as your above cut and paste demonstrates. Strewth!


Show us where I replied to Bulletguy please Brian
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:15 PM

pelmetman - 2018-03-17 3:56 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 3:52 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 2:23 PM..................Don't recall quoting Bulletgay or passing comment on what he said ??? Maybe you can show where I did ..............

Here:
Bulletguy - 2018-03-15 9:54 PM
Doors for flats in Grenfell Tower could only hold back a fire for half the time they were designed to, a police investigation has found.

Experts said a door was supposed to resist fire for 30 minutes, but only lasted 15 minutes in tests.

Housing Secretary Sajid Javid said the risk to public safety in buildings with the same doors remains low.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43413989

Immediately beneath which you replied, as you must surely know:
antony1969 - 2018-03-16 8:18 AM
Tha's been a few cases of fraud claims from foreign type folk with Grenfell ain't tha and didn't someone get done for running a cannabis farm or something from one of the flats ... Shocking

If you want to know what the string is about, try looking at the original post.

Your post, as quoted above, appears to be arguing that they all deserved their fates, because a) some of them were "foreign type folk" and b) one resident was producing, and selling, cannabis oil. That sentiment really is shocking, but, above all, it is totally irrelevant to the fire, its outcome, or its causes.


But he didn't quote BG's post did he? .......

Just sayin .......That you're trying to put words into Antony's mouth .......


I do sometimes wish you'd read before you post, Dave! I didn't say that Antony had quoted BG. It was Antony's (false) claim that I'd done so, whereas what I had I said was that he'd replied to BG with his irrelevant post about foreign type folk and cannabis farms - as your above cut and paste demonstrates. Strewth!


The Russians made me do it .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-17 4:35 PM.....................But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough

As I've already said to Dave, I did not claim you had quoted BG. That was your (incorrect) claim.

Your post is immediately below BG's post, apparently in reply to it. If you didn't mean that, tougher still!

Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM
Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.


Well wasn't that the whole point of this thread?.......For the loony lefties to try claim the moral high ground? .......

Dam that fridge has a lot to answer for .......

userantony1969
Posted: 17 March 2018 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 4:35 PM.....................But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough

As I've already said to Dave, I did not claim you had quoted BG. That was your (incorrect) claim.

Your post is immediately below BG's post, apparently in reply to it. If you didn't mean that, tougher still!

Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.[/QUOT

Brian the thread title says Grenfell Tower doesn't it ... My comment about the fraudulent claims are totally to do with Grenfell ... I know you'd prefer not to talk about it but it's reality , not made up , not a lie but what's happened ... Just tell me what's acceptable to talk about when the thread title says Grenfell Tower and I'll try to stick to it in future so as not to upset your stomach ... By the way if you have now decided all on your own that when someone posts they are replying to only the previous post it might be nice for you to inform all the other members of a change of policy
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 March 2018 8:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 1:39 PM.................................Aren't the fire doors (in tower blocks) just fitted at the entry/exit point of each stairwell? If so then in the case of Grenfell that would only be 24 doors which doesn't seem much to pay out by the few tower blocks we have in UK.

Maybe the future of tower block residential builds is questionable and perhaps we should be looking at alternatives? Certainly the cladding issue was something i believe was raised by residents numerous times....but they were ignored.

No. Because the fire fighting concept is of compartmentation, each flat being constructed to contain the fire for a minimum period of time. Floors and separating walls are (usually) 1 hour, and any doors in those walls are (usually) 30 minutes. The idea is to allow time for a) occupants of a flat where a fire starts to escape in safety and call the fire brigade, and b) to give time for the fire brigade to arrive, deal with the fire, and assess the risk to occupants of other flats, before the fire can spread to other flats.

The idea is that the brigade then decides the extent to which evacuation of other flats may be necessary, and provide whatever assistance may be required to assist those affected to leave. This reduces the risk of large numbers all trying to evacuate at the same time.

It is a well tried and tested methodology, but it relies implicitly on the fire compartmentation periods being achieved and maintained, and above all on the external walls not allowing a fire to spread externally, so leap-frogging across compartment barriers. That is why the use of flammable external insulation and cladding at Grenfell had such disastrous consequences.

The fire brigade would have expected the fire compartmentation to be as designed, and the standard advice to residents is that the safest thing to do is to remain in their flats, windows and doors closed, until advised otherwise by the fire brigade.

Apparently, the first fire fighters on the scene had quickly dealt with the fire inside the flat, but were unaware that the fire had escaped into the cladding until alerted by their colleagues outside. Even then, they did not at first understand what was happening because their training was based on the external walls being non flammable. They then had to radio for further rigs to deal with the external fire and, because of the speed at which the fire spread externally, by the time those rigs were deployed the fire was out of control.

This necessitated a full scale evacuation of the building, for which the escape stairs were inadequate, because they had not been designed on that basis. The result was chaos on the stairs, which would have been full of people of all ages and varying degrees of mobility and agility. The burning cladding created dense smoke externally that entered through vents intended to evacuate smoke from a fire within the building, so reducing visibility on the stairs and no doubt creating a measure of panic. In the face of all of this, other fire fighters were trying to make their ways up the stairs to reach anyone still remaining or needing assistance.

It is a nightmare vision that only arose because of the illegal use of flammable insulation and cladding. The building regulations are abundantly clear on the need for external cladding on tall, multi occupancy, residential buildings, to be non-flammable, and I cannot (yet) begin to understand how an error of such magnitude could possibly have been made. It is already mired in politics, and I fear that the eventual enquiry report may be clouded by the political game playing. I hope it will not, and that the trail of evidence showing how that catastrophic error came to be made will be forensic and irrefutable. It needs to be.

Appreciate the read of that Brian which cleared the smog after yet another afternoon of inane rubbish from the Beano boys. The cladding issue is now causing an absolute nightmare involving legal disputes over owners of other tower blocks who say it's not their responsibility to replace and resident leaseholders must pay. The judge has suggested they sue local government, the council, cladding manufacturer or builder.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/16/sitting-on-a-timebomb-tower-block-residents-on-life-after-grenfell
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43388473

And to think, all this could have possibly been avoided had KCTMO listened to Grenfell residents complaints. Also read somewhere that KCTMO have temporarily handed back responsibility for all of it's properties to the council, saying it can no longer guarantee to meet the standards expected by residents.

I'm also at a loss to figure why when Grenfell underwent it's refit of the cladding, a sprinkler system was never fitted which seems pretty insane to me. How much extra that may have cost in comparison to the cladding i expect would have been little more than peanuts.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2018 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 8:53 PM

I'm also at a loss to figure why when Grenfell underwent it's refit of the cladding, a sprinkler system was never fitted which seems pretty insane to me. How much extra that may have cost in comparison to the cladding i expect would have been little more than peanuts.


.......and of course Labour councils up and down the land used different cladding and installed sprinkler systems didn't they? ........

Just askin .......

userantony1969
Posted: 18 March 2018 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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One million pound fraud case at the moment I see ... The Naqbashidi family or something that sounds similar are claiming that 15 of them lived in a 3 bedroom flat in Grenfell though only 4 were on the original tenancy agreement ... One million pound fraud from just one family living in Grenfell , shocking they are trying to make money on the back of death but suppose I'll be the bad guy for bringing it up ... It's not what the delicates on here want to read is it but it is very much Grenfell related ... One of those uncomfortable truths one might say
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2018 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-03-17 6:36 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM
Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.


Well wasn't that the whole point of this thread?.......For the loony lefties to try claim the moral high ground? .......

Dam that fridge has a lot to answer for .......


Sorry Dave, but your making less sense to me the more you say. Who is on about moral high ground - apart from you?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2018 12:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-17 6:55 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 4:35 PM.....................But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough

As I've already said to Dave, I did not claim you had quoted BG. That was your (incorrect) claim.

Your post is immediately below BG's post, apparently in reply to it. If you didn't mean that, tougher still!

Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.


Brian the thread title says Grenfell Tower doesn't it ... My comment about the fraudulent claims are totally to do with Grenfell ... I know you'd prefer not to talk about it but it's reality , not made up , not a lie but what's happened ... Just tell me what's acceptable to talk about when the thread title says Grenfell Tower and I'll try to stick to it in future so as not to upset your stomach ... By the way if you have now decided all on your own that when someone posts they are replying to only the previous post it might be nice for you to inform all the other members of a change of policy

Please explain Antony, how your comments are relevant to Grenfell Tower (a building) or the fire that resulted in its destruction?

It seems to me they are about the behaviour of people, some of who lived, or fraudulently claimed to have lived, at Grenfell Tower. On that tenuous basis you might as well include the thoughts of the local postman as well, or anyone who could see Grenfell Tower, or anyone who had ever visited, or lived in, Grenfell Tower.

It's got nothing to do with what I can stomach, and everything to do with you trying to subvert yet another string into an opportunity for you to go off on one of your anti-immigrant (those "foreign type folk") rants. What people do, whether they are honest, and where they came from, has no bearing on the building or the fire which, if you would just read from the top, you would see are clearly the subject of the string.

If you want to start a string on the behaviour of Grenfell Tower residents and where they came from, as far as I am concerned you are completely at liberty to do so. What I'm objecting to is you polluting this string with your usual biased bile, where it has no rational place or relevance and merely serves as a distraction.
userantony1969
Posted: 18 March 2018 1:36 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 12:58 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 6:55 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 4:35 PM.....................But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough

As I've already said to Dave, I did not claim you had quoted BG. That was your (incorrect) claim.

Your post is immediately below BG's post, apparently in reply to it. If you didn't mean that, tougher still!

Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.


Brian the thread title says Grenfell Tower doesn't it ... My comment about the fraudulent claims are totally to do with Grenfell ... I know you'd prefer not to talk about it but it's reality , not made up , not a lie but what's happened ... Just tell me what's acceptable to talk about when the thread title says Grenfell Tower and I'll try to stick to it in future so as not to upset your stomach ... By the way if you have now decided all on your own that when someone posts they are replying to only the previous post it might be nice for you to inform all the other members of a change of policy

Please explain Antony, how your comments are relevant to Grenfell Tower (a building) or the fire that resulted in its destruction?

It seems to me they are about the behaviour of people, some of who lived, or fraudulently claimed to have lived, at Grenfell Tower. On that tenuous basis you might as well include the thoughts of the local postman as well, or anyone who could see Grenfell Tower, or anyone who had ever visited, or lived in, Grenfell Tower.

It's got nothing to do with what I can stomach, and everything to do with you trying to subvert yet another string into an opportunity for you to go off on one of your anti-immigrant (those "foreign type folk") rants. What people do, whether they are honest, and where they came from, has no bearing on the building or the fire which, if you would just read from the top, you would see are clearly the subject of the string.

If you want to start a string on the behaviour of Grenfell Tower residents and where they came from, as far as I am concerned you are completely at liberty to do so. What I'm objecting to is you polluting this string with your usual biased bile, where it has no rational place or relevance and merely serves as a distraction.


Brian your promoting yourself to some moderator style.position me thinks ... First you say I'm obviously replying to Bulletgay because his post was the last one before mine though I don't quote him or mention anything he's said ... Now on a thread titled Grenfell Tower I post a Grenfell related issue you don't like and you start to throw insults which to be fair isn't normally your style ... If I'm so wrong for posting my Grenfell related post why are you so right to post yours about fire doors and cladding when the original post title mentions neither ... I'll tell you why because you don't like negative talk around the Grenfell issue though all I'm doing is repeating what some scumbags have done off the back of a disaster ... If that's bile then so be it ... Like other certain issues best to ignore and brush them under the carpet because they don't sit too well with your cosy world ... Tough
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 March 2018 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-03-18 9:04 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 8:53 PM

I'm also at a loss to figure why when Grenfell underwent it's refit of the cladding, a sprinkler system was never fitted which seems pretty insane to me. How much extra that may have cost in comparison to the cladding i expect would have been little more than peanuts.


.......and of course Labour councils up and down the land used different cladding and installed sprinkler systems didn't they? ........

Just askin .......

If "just askin'" which you seem to be doing a lot of lately in posts after making snide insinuations without backing them up with any constructive, factual, or even logical comments, i can't help but think you haven't taken this thread seriously at all and your use of grinning emoticons shows that.

To use the deaths of 71 people who died under the most horrific conditions as a game of political point scoring is pretty disgusting.


Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 12:58 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 6:55 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-03-17 6:31 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-17 4:35 PM.....................But Brian your conveniently skipping that I did not quote Bulletgay or mention anything he's said in the post before me ...What you mean is I've brought up the fraud and criminality on a thread titled Grenfell Tower and you don't like it ... Tough

As I've already said to Dave, I did not claim you had quoted BG. That was your (incorrect) claim.

Your post is immediately below BG's post, apparently in reply to it. If you didn't mean that, tougher still!

Sadly, I think you'll find fraud and criminality in all parts of the UK - but what conceivable relevance that has to the fire - or to Grenfell Tower - is way beyond me. Please enlighten.


Brian the thread title says Grenfell Tower doesn't it ... My comment about the fraudulent claims are totally to do with Grenfell ... I know you'd prefer not to talk about it but it's reality , not made up , not a lie but what's happened ... Just tell me what's acceptable to talk about when the thread title says Grenfell Tower and I'll try to stick to it in future so as not to upset your stomach ... By the way if you have now decided all on your own that when someone posts they are replying to only the previous post it might be nice for you to inform all the other members of a change of policy

Please explain Antony, how your comments are relevant to Grenfell Tower (a building) or the fire that resulted in its destruction?

It seems to me they are about the behaviour of people, some of who lived, or fraudulently claimed to have lived, at Grenfell Tower. On that tenuous basis you might as well include the thoughts of the local postman as well, or anyone who could see Grenfell Tower, or anyone who had ever visited, or lived in, Grenfell Tower.

It's got nothing to do with what I can stomach, and everything to do with you trying to subvert yet another string into an opportunity for you to go off on one of your anti-immigrant (those "foreign type folk") rants. What people do, whether they are honest, and where they came from, has no bearing on the building or the fire which, if you would just read from the top, you would see are clearly the subject of the string.

If you want to start a string on the behaviour of Grenfell Tower residents and where they came from, as far as I am concerned you are completely at liberty to do so. What I'm objecting to is you polluting this string with your usual biased bile, where it has no rational place or relevance and merely serves as a distraction.

Well said Brian.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2018 6:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-18 1:36 PM.................................Brian your promoting yourself to some moderator style.position me thinks ... First you say I'm obviously replying to Bulletgay because his post was the last one before mine though I don't quote him or mention anything he's said ... Now on a thread titled Grenfell Tower I post a Grenfell related issue you don't like and you start to throw insults which to be fair isn't normally your style ... If I'm so wrong for posting my Grenfell related post why are you so right to post yours about fire doors and cladding when the original post title mentions neither ... I'll tell you why because you don't like negative talk around the Grenfell issue though all I'm doing is repeating what some scumbags have done off the back of a disaster ... If that's bile then so be it ... Like other certain issues best to ignore and brush them under the carpet because they don't sit too well with your cosy world ... Tough

Moderator? No. You jest, surely?

I believe it is usual to reply beneath the post one is responding to, or to quote the post in the interests of clarity or, in the interests of clarity, to say if one's post isn't in reply to the preceding post. If you leave others to interpret your intentions, you can't blame them if they misinterpret them.

To quote antony1969, you haven't answered my question. Your comments are (again) about "foreign type people", some (foreign, of course) twit who was producing cannabis oil in his flat, and some other twit (also foreign) who fraudulently tried to claim compensation. So, I'll repeat the question: how are those comments relevant to Grenfell Tower (a building) or the fire that resulted in its destruction? Blowed if I can see the relevance.

Why are Grenfell Tower fire doors and Grenfell Tower cladding relevant to Grenfell Tower? Tricky! You've really got me there , Antony. Hmmmm, Gosh, I really couldn't say.

But then, you've managed to answer your own question, presumably to your own satisfaction, so who am I to argue?

My cosy world? Well, it's the same world as yours Antony, it's just a question of how one sees it. I'm sorry yours is uncosy, though. Must be miserable for you. It certainly seems that way!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2018 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-18 4:58 PM

To use the deaths of 71 people who died under the most horrific conditions as a game of political point scoring is pretty disgusting.


Really Bullet? ......Are really so far up your own pompous self righteous left wing ar*e, that your not prepared to accept that tower blocks up and down the country have not been covered in the same cladding ? .......

Jeezus you are a prize plonker.........Kinda funny given your trade you weren't so precious with your principles then?........

BTW .....How many do you reckon you may have killed with them Bullets?

Just askin ......



userantony1969
Posted: 18 March 2018 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 6:53 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-18 1:36 PM.................................Brian your promoting yourself to some moderator style.position me thinks ... First you say I'm obviously replying to Bulletgay because his post was the last one before mine though I don't quote him or mention anything he's said ... Now on a thread titled Grenfell Tower I post a Grenfell related issue you don't like and you start to throw insults which to be fair isn't normally your style ... If I'm so wrong for posting my Grenfell related post why are you so right to post yours about fire doors and cladding when the original post title mentions neither ... I'll tell you why because you don't like negative talk around the Grenfell issue though all I'm doing is repeating what some scumbags have done off the back of a disaster ... If that's bile then so be it ... Like other certain issues best to ignore and brush them under the carpet because they don't sit too well with your cosy world ... Tough

Moderator? No. You jest, surely?

I believe it is usual to reply beneath the post one is responding to, or to quote the post in the interests of clarity or, in the interests of clarity, to say if one's post isn't in reply to the preceding post. If you leave others to interpret your intentions, you can't blame them if they misinterpret them.

To quote antony1969, you haven't answered my question. Your comments are (again) about "foreign type people", some (foreign, of course) twit who was producing cannabis oil in his flat, and some other twit (also foreign) who fraudulently tried to claim compensation. So, I'll repeat the question: how are those comments relevant to Grenfell Tower (a building) or the fire that resulted in its destruction? Blowed if I can see the relevance.

Why are Grenfell Tower fire doors and Grenfell Tower cladding relevant to Grenfell Tower? Tricky! You've really got me there , Antony. Hmmmm, Gosh, I really couldn't say.

But then, you've managed to answer your own question, presumably to your own satisfaction, so who am I to argue?

My cosy world? Well, it's the same world as yours Antony, it's just a question of how one sees it. I'm sorry yours is uncosy, though. Must be miserable for you. It certainly seems that way!


But Brian what you believe to be correct procedure regarding posting doesn't make it correct does it or because you've said it I presume it does ???
To me your not making any sense with what points regarding Grenfell are more relevant on a thread that's titled Grenfell Tower
Your world isn't the same as mine Brian thankfully but maybe yours is happier because you seem to live in a Disney style fantasy world
Reality is you don't like the truths that I've posted about Grenfell ... If you can show they aren't truthful then maybe you have a point , if not it's tough titties my friend
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2018 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 8:53 PM..............................I'm also at a loss to figure why when Grenfell underwent it's refit of the cladding, a sprinkler system was never fitted which seems pretty insane to me. How much extra that may have cost in comparison to the cladding i expect would have been little more than peanuts.

Over the years I've had a number of conversations with fire officers over sprinklers. Basically, the outcome was that they were wary of them. Once a sprinkler head goes off, it can only be stopped if the whole system is isolated. That means that an awful lot of water gushes out, and the only way it can escape is down. This frequently means extensive damage to lower properties: far more than would have resulted had the fire brigade been called to fight whatever fire triggered the event. The heads have to be replaced periodically, and must also be inspected, which presents practical difficulties in residential accommodation. The heads are quite delicate, so are quite easily broken. They can also be triggered by a cigarette lighter in the hands of an inquisitive kid! So, although they would probably have worked well in this case, they have their own problems that led the fire officers to whom I spoke to regard them as a last resort.

They always favoured passive fire control, to be achieved by dividing buildings into fire resisting compartments, so that a fire in one compartment stayed there until the brigade could arrive, assess the risk, deal with the fire, and control the numbers it was desirable to evacuate. This would have been the basis on which Grenfell Tower was designed, and mirrors contemporary practise at the time and, as far as I know, is also current practise.

There have been a number of fires in blocks of flats over the years and, until a relatively few recent cases where alterations had altered the fire profile of the building, the compartmentation approach had proved itself. But, stick flammable cladding all over the external walls, and all bets are off! My own opinion is that non-flammable cladding would have been a far safer, less maintenance intensive, foolproof, (and cheaper) option than sprinklers plus flammable cladding.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2018 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-18 7:06 PM.............................Reality is you don't like the truths that I've posted about Grenfell ... If you can show they aren't truthful then maybe you have a point , if not it's tough titties my friend

You're getting more like Dave, Antony. I haven't said they were untruthful, have I? You can't score points by claiming people say things they haven't said, especially when the truth can be read a few lines above. Oh dear!

What I have said is that your posts on Grenfell are irrelevant to the topic - which you plainly don't/can't understand - because they concern the honesty and ethnicity of residents and claimed residents, which are not Grenfell specific issues. They are social issues that are common to any population pretty much anywhere in the world.

I'll happily admit they get right up my nose, but that is because they are an unwelcome intrusion into a conversation about something else. It's a bit like someone interrupting a conversation, ignoring what anyone else was saying, and droning on about some pet interest of theirs instead. Rude, I think, is the word.
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Posted: 18 March 2018 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 7:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-18 7:06 PM.............................Reality is you don't like the truths that I've posted about Grenfell ... If you can show they aren't truthful then maybe you have a point , if not it's tough titties my friend

You're getting more like Dave, Antony. I haven't said they were untruthful, have I? You can't score points by claiming people say things they haven't said, especially when the truth can be read a few lines above. Oh dear!

What I have said is that your posts on Grenfell are irrelevant to the topic - which you plainly don't/can't understand - because they concern the honesty and ethnicity of residents and claimed residents, which are not Grenfell specific issues. They are social issues that are common to any population pretty much anywhere in the world.

I'll happily admit they get right up my nose, but that is because they are an unwelcome intrusion into a conversation about something else. It's a bit like someone interrupting a conversation, ignoring what anyone else was saying, and droning on about some pet interest of theirs instead. Rude, I think, is the word.


So are you blaming the Tories to? ........

Just askin .......

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Posted: 18 March 2018 7:57 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 7:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-18 7:06 PM.............................Reality is you don't like the truths that I've posted about Grenfell ... If you can show they aren't truthful then maybe you have a point , if not it's tough titties my friend

You're getting more like Dave, Antony. I haven't said they were untruthful, have I? You can't score points by claiming people say things they haven't said, especially when the truth can be read a few lines above. Oh dear!

What I have said is that your posts on Grenfell are irrelevant to the topic - which you plainly don't/can't understand - because they concern the honesty and ethnicity of residents and claimed residents, which are not Grenfell specific issues. They are social issues that are common to any population pretty much anywhere in the world.

I'll happily admit they get right up my nose, but that is because they are an unwelcome intrusion into a conversation about something else. It's a bit like someone interrupting a conversation, ignoring what anyone else was saying, and droning on about some pet interest of theirs instead. Rude, I think, is the word.


I asked if you could show they weren't the truth Brian I didn't say you believed they weren't the truth did I so no cheap point scoring from me ... I'm sorry you don't believe my post is relevant to this Grenfell post or Grenfell matters in general ... The press may disagree with you because what I see at the start of the reports of fraudulent Grenfell claims is the word GRENFELL but you'll know best of course ... I'll stand by what I've said previously I believe it's simply because you don't like to read bad Grenfell news and more importantly it's me that posted it ... Deedums
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 March 2018 9:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-03-18 7:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-18 4:58 PM

To use the deaths of 71 people who died under the most horrific conditions as a game of political point scoring is pretty disgusting.


Really Bullet? ......Are really so far up your own pompous self righteous left wing ar*e, that your not prepared to accept that tower blocks up and down the country have not been covered in the same cladding ? .......

So why not add some posts to the thread listing them instead of waffling totally irrelevant and pointless bunkum?
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Posted: 18 March 2018 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-18 7:20 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-17 8:53 PM..............................I'm also at a loss to figure why when Grenfell underwent it's refit of the cladding, a sprinkler system was never fitted which seems pretty insane to me. How much extra that may have cost in comparison to the cladding i expect would have been little more than peanuts.

Over the years I've had a number of conversations with fire officers over sprinklers. Basically, the outcome was that they were wary of them. Once a sprinkler head goes off, it can only be stopped if the whole system is isolated. That means that an awful lot of water gushes out, and the only way it can escape is down. This frequently means extensive damage to lower properties: far more than would have resulted had the fire brigade been called to fight whatever fire triggered the event. The heads have to be replaced periodically, and must also be inspected, which presents practical difficulties in residential accommodation. The heads are quite delicate, so are quite easily broken. They can also be triggered by a cigarette lighter in the hands of an inquisitive kid! So, although they would probably have worked well in this case, they have their own problems that led the fire officers to whom I spoke to regard them as a last resort.

They always favoured passive fire control, to be achieved by dividing buildings into fire resisting compartments, so that a fire in one compartment stayed there until the brigade could arrive, assess the risk, deal with the fire, and control the numbers it was desirable to evacuate. This would have been the basis on which Grenfell Tower was designed, and mirrors contemporary practise at the time and, as far as I know, is also current practise.

There have been a number of fires in blocks of flats over the years and, until a relatively few recent cases where alterations had altered the fire profile of the building, the compartmentation approach had proved itself. But, stick flammable cladding all over the external walls, and all bets are off! My own opinion is that non-flammable cladding would have been a far safer, less maintenance intensive, foolproof, (and cheaper) option than sprinklers plus flammable cladding.

Yes non-flammable cladding would certainly have made more sense. My son did a shift out at Grenfell as many brigades were involved and falling debris of molten aluminium was just one of many hazards crews faced. Apparently that was part of the cost cutting to save money, downgrading it from zinc to aluminum. Filling it with polyethylene.....they might just as well have been making an incendiary bomb.
Equipment was another issue for LFB as explained in this link;
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-london-fire-brigade-aerial-ladders-block-flats-upper-floors-reach-a8142431.html
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 March 2018 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-03-18 7:39 PM......................So are you blaming the Tories to? ........

Just askin .......
Blaming the Tories for what, Dave? For Antony's irrelevant interventions, or for the flammable cladding on Grenfell?

If for Antony, no, because I don't think they control his thought processes to that extent!

If for the flammable cladding, I'll await the outcome of the public enquiry, but I suspect it will turn out at be a very long and winding road, in which I'd expect (and hope!) party politics plays little to no part.

Someone made an appalling mistake. The relevant questions are who, how, and why. At present I'm pretty clear about what the mistake was, but I'm totally confounded as to how it could possibly arisen.

I'm presently inclined to think it may have to do with relaxations to the approvals procedures (lighter touch regulation, etc), but I have no idea which relaxations, if any, may have had what impact on the way the flammable insulation and cladding got approval - assuming it did, and assuming that relaxations are implicated.

Despite your mindset, everything cannot be viewed through a party political prism.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 March 2018 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-03-18 7:57 PM..................I'll stand by what I've said previously I believe it's simply because you don't like to read bad Grenfell news and more importantly it's me that posted it ... Deedums

Wrong on both counts, and it's Diddums!
userantony1969
Posted: 19 March 2018 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-19 1:32 PM

antony1969 - 2018-03-18 7:57 PM..................I'll stand by what I've said previously I believe it's simply because you don't like to read bad Grenfell news and more importantly it's me that posted it ... Deedums

Wrong on both counts, and it's Diddums!


Well we will have to agree to disagree me thinks ... You are right of course it is Diddums ... Me and school never saw eye to eye ... Too many foriegn teachers
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 March 2018 2:03 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-03-18 9:44 PM.......................... Apparently that was part of the cost cutting to save money, downgrading it from zinc to aluminum. Filling it with polyethylene.....they might just as well have been making an incendiary bomb.....................

Yes, but folk have fickle attitudes. On the one hand, no-one should spend more than the minimum necessary to achieve a functionally satisfactory outcome when spending public money. On the other hand, they criticise cost cutting where there has been a bad outcome that involved the substitution of a cheaper material for a more expensive one.

The true answer is that using flammable materials on the external walls of this (and other) buildings contravenes building regulations. Cost considerations do not come into that decision.

There is a strict procedure for gaining approval for work of that kind, which involves the submission of corroborated evidence of the fire resistance, and resistance to spread of fire, of the proposed design.

Usually, and I'm pretty sure was relevant in this case, such evidence could only be provided after a full scale mock-up of a full story height sample of the proposed cladding system had been fire tested, usually at the Fire Research Station at Borehamwood.

It seems that cannot have been done, because the combination of insulation and cladding as used would not have passed the test.

If different materials to those actually used were tested, and passed, but someone later decided to switch in a flammable alternative, for purely cost saving reasons, it opens a very nasty can of worms indeed as even then normal materials checking should have picked up on the switch. Prison beckons for someone in that case!

The questions that then arise would be whether that cost saving was passed on to Kensington and Chelsea, whether the fact that the substitute materials were not those approved was made clear to Kensington and Chelsea, and whether the decision to use them was taken knowing that was the case.

In short, was there fraud, and if so by whom, was there incompetence, and if so on whose part. As ever, we are left with this being the result either of knavery, or fools.
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Posted: 19 March 2018 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-03-19 2:03 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-03-18 9:44 PM.......................... Apparently that was part of the cost cutting to save money, downgrading it from zinc to aluminum. Filling it with polyethylene.....they might just as well have been making an incendiary bomb.....................

Yes, but folk have fickle attitudes. On the one hand, no-one should spend more than the minimum necessary to achieve a functionally satisfactory outcome when spending public money. On the other hand, they criticise cost cutting where there has been a bad outcome that involved the substitution of a cheaper material for a more expensive one.

The true answer is that using flammable materials on the external walls of this (and other) buildings contravenes building regulations. Cost considerations do not come into that decision.

There is a strict procedure for gaining approval for work of that kind, which involves the submission of corroborated evidence of the fire resistance, and resistance to spread of fire, of the proposed design.

Usually, and I'm pretty sure was relevant in this case, such evidence could only be provided after a full scale mock-up of a full story height sample of the proposed cladding system had been fire tested, usually at the Fire Research Station at Borehamwood.

It seems that cannot have been done, because the combination of insulation and cladding as used would not have passed the test.

If different materials to those actually used were tested, and passed, but someone later decided to switch in a flammable alternative, for purely cost saving reasons, it opens a very nasty can of worms indeed as even then normal materials checking should have picked up on the switch. Prison beckons for someone in that case!

The questions that then arise would be whether that cost saving was passed on to Kensington and Chelsea, whether the fact that the substitute materials were not those approved was made clear to Kensington and Chelsea, and whether the decision to use them was taken knowing that was the case.

In short, was there fraud, and if so by whom, was there incompetence, and if so on whose part. As ever, we are left with this being the result either of knavery, or fools.

I read in one article where the downgrading to aluminium saved £600k which seems a small price to pay when the alternative meant non-flammable ensuring increased level of safety and wouldn't have resulted in the inferno Grenfell became. And by using the cheaper flammable option, if it contravenes building regs (makes sense), i wonder who sanctioned it?

There's an article here concerning the time the cladding was installed where no less than 16 inspections failed to call a halt on it. A local Labour councillor said, “This raises the question of whether the building regulations officers were sufficiently competent and did they know what they were looking at. It also begs a question about what they were actually shown. Was anything concealed from them.”

Fraud, incompetence? I think it highly unlikely we will ever get any truthful answers to that but had this occurred on industrial premises we'd be seeing custodial sentences by now.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/21/grenfell-tower-16-council-inspections-failed-to-stop-use-of-flammable-cladding
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 March 2018 6:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Last I read, Paul, inferred that the contractor had been engaged on some kind of design and construct basis, leaving him responsible for the design, for obtaining all necessary clearances, and for execution of the work. However, this all needs to be tempered with caution, as the reporters don't fully understand the system they are reporting upon either.

I think the enquiry probably will drill down to the crux of the issue, but they will need to read a huge volume of correspondence between a large number of parties (suppliers, sub-contractors, designers, test institutions, the council, their building control department, etc. etc.), so it will take quite a while to clarify who said what to who, when, and on what grounds. Added to that the Met Police are pursuing a separate fraud enquiry (which is what unearthed the dud fire doors), so I think there is a good chance that the guilty will be identified and, where appropriate, prosecuted. We shall see.
userantony1969
Posted: 8 April 2018 8:24 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Who are these vile people ... https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/06/fraudster-jailed-for-pretending-to-be-victim-of-grenfell-tower-fire
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 12:26 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;

https://www.channel4.com/news/author-of-grenfell-tower-review-the-lack-of-discipline-has-shocked-me

https://www.channel4.com/news/government-will-consult-on-banning-flammable-cladding-after-its-grenfell-review-failed-to-propose-such-action

Full report here; https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/independent-review-of-building-regulations-and-fire-safety-final-report

A good Q&A article here from the Guardian;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/17/hackitt-review-grenfell-style-cladding-building-regulations
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility,


I'm more shocked by the lowlife that have tried to profit from the tragedy including a Grenfell activist ......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grenfell-tower-fire-man-charged-fraud-a8309611.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-woman-fraud-support-false-joyce-msokeri-police-a7930071.html

https://news.sky.com/story/man-who-claimed-family-died-in-grenfell-fire-pleads-guilty-to-fraud-11109982

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5432261/Grenfell-campaigner-hotel-room-uses-home.html
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 May 2018 3:31 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM
The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.



You mean before we joined the EU ........

Just sayin ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 8:43 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility,


I'm more shocked by the lowlife that have tried to profit from the tragedy including a Grenfell activist ......

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grenfell-tower-fire-man-charged-fraud-a8309611.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-woman-fraud-support-false-joyce-msokeri-police-a7930071.html

https://news.sky.com/story/man-who-claimed-family-died-in-grenfell-fire-pleads-guilty-to-fraud-11109982

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5432261/Grenfell-campaigner-hotel-room-uses-home.html

Only three out of the four links you posted committed an offence, been charged and rightly sentenced. The Wail appears to be little more than it's usual attempt at whipping up hate as no offence is reported at all. For balance it was reported there were approx 350-400 residents living in Grenfell, 72 of whom lost their lives.

Perhaps you should consider more seriously the comments from Dame Judith Hackitt over 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials. Had you lost your entire family in a property fire caused by shoddy working practices and use of non-compliant materials, i think you would be singing a very different tune.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 May 2018 4:21 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 3:37 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM
The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.



You mean before we joined the EU ..............

No, Dave, I don't, because it has no relevance whatever, to either Building Regs approval procedures, or to the Grenfell fire.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 4:28 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 5:41 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 4:21 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 3:37 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM
The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.



You mean before we joined the EU ..............

No, Dave, I don't, because it has no relevance whatever, to either Building Regs approval procedures, or to the Grenfell fire.


Point of order ......That's not what you said .......

The implication "IS" before we joined the EU we were getting it right? .......

Just sayin .....



Edited by pelmetman 2018-05-18 5:43 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.



Blimey Bullet I could've told you that decades ago .......

I once went to fit a blind in a show house I was fitting out, and just the force of my bradawl made the wooden window fall out ........

So the fact that the window was made of wood should indicate how long ago that was ...........

....and folk wonder why I don't buy "new" stuff made this century.......Because from experience its even worse ........





Edited by pelmetman 2018-05-18 5:58 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 May 2018 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM......................From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. .....................

It isn't just domestic, Paul, the same procedures apply to all construction approvals; commercial, residential, private and public.

She is a chemical engineer, but was head of the Health and Safety Executive 2009 - 16. Have a look at her biog: it is impressive! One clever lady.

It goes beyond enforcement, which I see as post hoc. It has happened because over time government has allowed self-certification, licenced private firms to become Buildings Regulations approvers who compete on price for the job, allowed "desk studies" on fire engineering to be carried out by non-specialists, and generally de-regulated the approvals system.

The regulations were written by professionals for professionals, but are now widely being interpreted by non-professionals. So, decisions have been taken by people who lack the necessary understanding. The result has been confusion over who does what to whom and when, and who is responsible if it all goes wrong. That, I hope, is about to get sharply clarified, and I rather fear some poor souls will end up in the dock as a consequence. They may be rogues, or just people who had insufficient understanding of the implications of what they were doing - but in either case I wouldn't like to be in their shoes!

Assuming the initial approvals procedures are properly brought back in line (big assumption!), so one can be confident that what gets approved for construction is as fully compliant as it can be made, it will be possible to move to enforcement - so that what gets built is what was actually approved, and hopefully to management - so that what is built is maintained in its approved state.

It's a far worse mess than I had realised, but I've not been closely involved for years so haven't had hands-on experience of the shifting goal posts. When I saw the pictures of the fire I was incredulous that it could be happening.

On a ban, it might be helpful to issue a temporary ban until the approvals systems is re-jigged, but beyond that I think the problems of definition and who is authorised to rule on compliance would run into trouble in the longer term. People keep inventing new materials, particularly insulants, and new ways to use existing materials and combinations of materials - which is where Grenfell (and seemingly a number of other buildings) came unstuck.

This will cost government (i.e. us!) the thick end of £500,000 at present estimates - so expect costs to rise as the true scope becomes clear - just for the local authority and housing association properties. Personally, I can't see how they can leave private owners to fend for themselves (their properties are now effectively valueless and un-saleable) as the same system granted approval in all cases. That should be a salutary lesson for someone on the true cost of ill-considered deregulation. But, will it?
userantony1969
Posted: 18 May 2018 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......

userantony1969
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......



As normal grasping reality of what takes place proves a little difficult for the drips ... Talking of Grenfell what ever happened to the tests on that magical exploding fridge and the fella who packed all his belongings before raising the alarm
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-05-18 6:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......



As normal grasping reality of what takes place proves a little difficult for the drips ... Talking of Grenfell what ever happened to the tests on that magical exploding fridge and the fella who packed all his belongings before raising the alarm


Makes you wonder dont it .......

He had time to pack??? ........

I wonder if he was a Momentum member? ........

Not to mention he knocked on his neighbours door and left his open so she could see the fire in his kitchen .......

Well a good fire does need a bit of draught ........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-05-18 6:32 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 5:57 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM......................From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. .....................

It isn't just domestic, Paul, the same procedures apply to all construction approvals; commercial, residential, private and public.

She is a chemical engineer, but was head of the Health and Safety Executive 2009 - 16. Have a look at her biog: it is impressive! One clever lady.

It goes beyond enforcement, which I see as post hoc. It has happened because over time government has allowed self-certification, licenced private firms to become Buildings Regulations approvers who compete on price for the job, allowed "desk studies" on fire engineering to be carried out by non-specialists, and generally de-regulated the approvals system.

The regulations were written by professionals for professionals, but are now widely being interpreted by non-professionals. So, decisions have been taken by people who lack the necessary understanding. The result has been confusion over who does what to whom and when, and who is responsible if it all goes wrong. That, I hope, is about to get sharply clarified, and I rather fear some poor souls will end up in the dock as a consequence. They may be rogues, or just people who had insufficient understanding of the implications of what they were doing - but in either case I wouldn't like to be in their shoes!

Assuming the initial approvals procedures are properly brought back in line (big assumption!), so one can be confident that what gets approved for construction is as fully compliant as it can be made, it will be possible to move to enforcement - so that what gets built is what was actually approved, and hopefully to management - so that what is built is maintained in its approved state.

It's a far worse mess than I had realised, but I've not been closely involved for years so haven't had hands-on experience of the shifting goal posts. When I saw the pictures of the fire I was incredulous that it could be happening.

On a ban, it might be helpful to issue a temporary ban until the approvals systems is re-jigged, but beyond that I think the problems of definition and who is authorised to rule on compliance would run into trouble in the longer term. People keep inventing new materials, particularly insulants, and new ways to use existing materials and combinations of materials - which is where Grenfell (and seemingly a number of other buildings) came unstuck.

This will cost government (i.e. us!) the thick end of £500,000 at present estimates - so expect costs to rise as the true scope becomes clear - just for the local authority and housing association properties. Personally, I can't see how they can leave private owners to fend for themselves (their properties are now effectively valueless and un-saleable) as the same system granted approval in all cases. That should be a salutary lesson for someone on the true cost of ill-considered deregulation. But, will it?

Yes i saw that and she is obviously highly qualified. As you say, pretty damn impressive! What i meant re 'domestic builds' she seemed genuinely shocked to find the same level of controls to what she's been used to dealing with in her own field, was not throughout the industry as a whole. It look like as you said, a case of too many non-professionals interpreting the rules however best suits them.

It was interesting that the LFB spokesman mentioned having competent people making decisions and seeing more robust tests are strictly adhered to is more important than a blanket ban.

My only experience of fire so far has thankfully not been at home, but once at work when we had an explosion in one of the powder cell rooms. Fortunately nobody was working the block at the time it occurred otherwise there would certainly have been loss of life. That was a major serious matter and involved months of investigations.

The only 'fire issue' i do have at home is a conifer issue with a crazy neighbour whose planted a 40ft fireball. Council aren't interested as you can plant these damn things......but put a fence up higher than 2mtrs and you'll be in trouble!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 6:34 PM

My only experience of fire so far has thankfully not been at home, but once at work when we had an explosion in one of the powder cell rooms. !


Is that all Bullet ......

Every vessel I served on caught fire at least once .......

The only one that didn't ....sunk .......

Even had a fire at HMS Rooke in Gibraltar......and that was a shore base .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 5:41 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 4:21 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 3:37 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM
The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.



You mean before we joined the EU ..............

No, Dave, I don't, because it has no relevance whatever, to either Building Regs approval procedures, or to the Grenfell fire.


Point of order ......That's not what you said .......

The implication "IS" before we joined the EU we were getting it right? .......

Just sayin .....

No. 40 years ago we were in the EEC. We joined on 1/1/1973. Grenfell tower was completed in 1974, and will have originally been approved by RBKC District Surveyors under section 20 of the London Building Acts. At that time we had just joined the EEC.

Neither the London Building Acts, nor the present Building Regulations, nor the present building regulations approvals system have ever been subject to EEC or EU regulation or intervention.

Certain materials testing procedures have been harmonised across the EU, so that materials approved in one country can be used in others without further testing but, as neither the cladding nor the insulation used in the refurbishment of Grenfell Tower comply with UK building regulations they were illegally used.

Membership or otherwise of the EEC or the EU has no relevance to this whatever. This was an entirely home grown catastrophe, largely facilitated by governments besotted with "light touch" regulation and de-regulation, which so degraded the approvals procedures that it was possible for non-compliant materials to be used. The resulting death toll was a consequence of UK government regulatory laxity, no more, no less.

Just sayin'.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......

How many "jobs" is this now? They keep mounting.

Banana boat deckhand, 'soldier', bus driver, pelmet maker and now suddenly you're claiming to have been employed on building sites.

Demolition would be more likely.
userBulletguy
Posted: 18 May 2018 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:40 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 6:34 PM

My only experience of fire so far has thankfully not been at home, but once at work when we had an explosion in one of the powder cell rooms. !


Is that all Bullet ......

Every vessel I served on caught fire at least once .......

The only one that didn't ....sunk .......

Even had a fire at HMS Rooke in Gibraltar......and that was a shore base .......

Why am i not surprised to read that? With you on board they'd got a one man trouble making disaster. I'm more surprised they didn't have you walk the plank.

Incidentally an explosion is much more than just a fire......but then you wouldn't know that.

Edited by Bulletguy 2018-05-18 6:58 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 6:55 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:40 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 6:34 PM

My only experience of fire so far has thankfully not been at home, but once at work when we had an explosion in one of the powder cell rooms. !


Is that all Bullet ......

Every vessel I served on caught fire at least once .......

The only one that didn't ....sunk .......

Even had a fire at HMS Rooke in Gibraltar......and that was a shore base .......

Why am i not surprised to read that? With you on board they'd got a one man trouble making disaster. I'm more surprised they didn't have you walk the plank.

Incidentally an explosion is much more than just a fire......but then you wouldn't know that.


Then you'd be wrong .......

As the boiler blew up on HMS Devonshire as we were heading out for a 9 month far east tour .........

Only got as far as Lisbon ........

BTW unlike you land lubbers we either had to put fires out or die ..........

Coz there was no where to run ..........





Edited by pelmetman 2018-05-18 7:10 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

Posts: 10906
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Location: Sunny Huddersfield


pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:20 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 6:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......



As normal grasping reality of what takes place proves a little difficult for the drips ... Talking of Grenfell what ever happened to the tests on that magical exploding fridge and the fella who packed all his belongings before raising the alarm


Makes you wonder dont it .......

He had time to pack??? ........

I wonder if he was a Momentum member? ........

Not to mention he knocked on his neighbours door and left his open so she could see the fire in his kitchen .......

Well a good fire does need a bit of draught ........



Those Hotpoint fridges ended being classed as low risk dint they ... Mr Behailu Kebede , typical Londoners name did pack all his gear away ... Weren't his family away that night ??? ... That was lucky wasn't it
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-05-18 7:08 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:20 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 6:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......



As normal grasping reality of what takes place proves a little difficult for the drips ... Talking of Grenfell what ever happened to the tests on that magical exploding fridge and the fella who packed all his belongings before raising the alarm


Makes you wonder dont it .......

He had time to pack??? ........

I wonder if he was a Momentum member? ........

Not to mention he knocked on his neighbours door and left his open so she could see the fire in his kitchen .......

Well a good fire does need a bit of draught ........



Those Hotpoint fridges ended being classed as low risk dint they ... Mr Behailu Kebede , typical Londoners name did pack all his gear away ... Weren't his family away that night ??? ... That was lucky wasn't it


How lucky is that? .........

Dunno where he's gone? ........



userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM..........................I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site .................................

If all you've ever set foot on are itty-bitty house builder's sites, you're over-bidding your expertise!

My first experience of a building site was in 1962, and my last in 2004. I was on and off all kinds of building sites for pretty much the whole of the intervening 42 years. So yes, I've been on quite a few!

I even got my hands dirty - though I washed them afterwards! Strange, this preoccupation with people getting dirty hands, has it some hidden significance?
userantony1969
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 7:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM..........................I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site .................................

If all you've ever set foot on are itty-bitty house builder's sites, you're over-bidding your expertise!

My first experience of a building site was in 1962, and my last in 2004. I was on and off all kinds of building sites for pretty much the whole of the intervening 42 years. So yes, I've been on quite a few!

I even got my hands dirty - though I washed them afterwards! Strange, this preoccupation with people getting dirty hands, has it some hidden significance?


Well it would be a miracle if you hadnt experienced cutting corners Brian ... Unless of course you were one of those the cutting corners crew were hiding it from ... Who's mentioned getting hands dirty ???
userantony1969
Posted: 18 May 2018 7:38 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-05-18 7:24 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 7:08 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:20 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 6:09 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM

antony1969 - 2018-05-18 5:58 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 4:28 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 3:31 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-05-18 12:26 AM


The Independent Review of Building Regulations and Fire Safety final report conducted by Dame Judith Hackitt released today. She told C4 news how shocked she was over the building sectors 'lack of moral responsibility, the attitudes, and the practices' within it. Though a highly qualified engineer her expertise is in the field of building chemical plants, not accommodation, so quite why she was asked to head the inquiry i'm not sure.

She mentions about 'people flouting the system' using non-compliant materials and said they 'must be held to account'. She hasn't called for a total ban on cladding which is confusing, but explains her reason here;.................................

I think if you download and read both (especially) the interim report and the final report, you will begin to glimpse why she was asked to head the inquiry. It's a long read, though. The interim goes at some length into the reasoning behind her call for a centralised approval authority. What the report identifies is the way in which the system has been degraded over time, both to allow self-certification, and to introduce price competition into the approvals procedure. She can't be specific over the shortcomings, because the police are still running a criminal investigation into how non-compliant materials came to be used.

Regarding a ban on flammable materials, I don't think it is that simple. It is already the case, as she acknowledges, and as confirmed by Brokenshire yesterday in parliament, that the cladding system used on Grenfell does not meet Building Regs requirements and was used illegally. In short, it is already "banned" under the regs. It is the degraded approvals procedure that led to its use. The report makes recommendations to tighten the controls in the kind of way that was normal 30-40 years ago.

The bigger question is whether a naïve, free-market oriented, deregulating, government will bite the bullet of accepting that the private sector has to be regarded as a potential poacher, meaning that its employer has to be prepared to employ a gamekeeper to keep it on the rails!

From what she said on the C4 interview she seemed to be genuinely shocked and surprised at the lax attitude within domestic property builds. I've no idea of the field of engineering she specialises in but she obviously believed the controls were as strict.

The part you mention in second para (emboldened) is what i found disturbing but she said that will be a matter for the building regulator now. As you say it is already banned......it needs properly enforcing. There seems to have been a culture of cost cutting and riding rough shod over any regulations. I doubt that same culture applied when developing Hyde Park One or Canary Wharf apartments.

Seeing how 'new builds' get thrown up in a matter of weeks today with residents moving in before the cement has barely had time to set, has always baffled me how developers get away with it. And they aren't cheap either. A small development near my village went up a few years ago, tiny little 'rabbit hutches' at £200 - £250k and all were sold.


Youve obviously never worked on sites or redevelopments ... You can be sure cost cutting through materials or other will have happened on Hyde Park One and Canary Wharf ... I dont do redevelopment or site work anymore as tha's no money in it for moi but back in the day when I did site work everyone who could from foundation to roof cut corners , if you didn't you made no money ... Your "rabbit hutches" as sh8tty as they are the demand is there for them ... Our new lazy homeowners prefer to move into something already finished rather getting their hands dirty ... Trouble is 6 months after buying a rabbit hutch they do have to get their hands dirty


What Brian get his hands dirty??? ........

Bullet can only polish Bullets and his ego .......

I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site ......

I got out of the game when building regs said I had to wear a hard hat and steel toe capped boots to fit curtains .......Then I knew the lunatics were in charge .......



As normal grasping reality of what takes place proves a little difficult for the drips ... Talking of Grenfell what ever happened to the tests on that magical exploding fridge and the fella who packed all his belongings before raising the alarm


Makes you wonder dont it .......

He had time to pack??? ........

I wonder if he was a Momentum member? ........

Not to mention he knocked on his neighbours door and left his open so she could see the fire in his kitchen .......

Well a good fire does need a bit of draught ........



Those Hotpoint fridges ended being classed as low risk dint they ... Mr Behailu Kebede , typical Londoners name did pack all his gear away ... Weren't his family away that night ??? ... That was lucky wasn't it


How lucky is that? .........

Dunno where he's gone? ........





Incredibly lucky ... His God sure was looking after him that night ... I bet hes holed up in some decent pad somewhere with his family this time though ... Hes a lucky fella
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 May 2018 8:00 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 7:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM..........................I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site .................................

If all you've ever set foot on are itty-bitty house builder's sites, you're over-bidding your expertise!

My first experience of a building site was in 1962, and my last in 2004. I was on and off all kinds of building sites for pretty much the whole of the intervening 42 years. So yes, I've been on quite a few!

I even got my hands dirty - though I washed them afterwards! Strange, this preoccupation with people getting dirty hands, has it some hidden significance?


So You'll know how standards have dropped .......

BTW the fact that you washed them say's everything Brian ........

Forgot to add I worked on all the big boy sites like Persimmon, Countryside, Bovis etc etc.......even Barratt .......So you can see I weren't fussy .......



Edited by pelmetman 2018-05-18 8:07 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 May 2018 11:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2018-05-18 7:34 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-05-18 7:24 PM

pelmetman - 2018-05-18 6:04 PM..........................I doubt they've ever set foot on a building site .................................

If all you've ever set foot on are itty-bitty house builder's sites, you're over-bidding your expertise!

My first experience of a building site was in 1962, and my last in 2004. I was on and off all kinds of building sites for pretty much the whole of the intervening 42 years. So yes, I've been on quite a few!

I even got my hands dirty - though I washed them afterwards! Strange, this preoccupation with people getting dirty hands, has it some hidden significance?


Well it would be a miracle if you hadnt experienced cutting corners Brian ... Unless of course you were one of those the cutting corners crew were hiding it from ... Who's mentioned getting hands dirty ???

Of course. Corner cutting is how some folk make money. Price the job, then see how much they can leave out without getting spotted.

Dave was preoccupied with dirty hands, possibly because he was only window dressing, so had to keep his clean!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 May 2018 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-05-18 8:00 PM...........................Forgot to add I worked on all the big boy sites like Persimmon, Countryside, Bovis etc etc.......even Barratt .......So you can see I weren't fussy .......

Good for you. They must have had much prettier show-house windows when you left!
userBulletguy
Posted: 21 May 2018 11:06 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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The official inquiry hears testimony from survivors of Grenfell including parents whose baby was stillborn.

https://www.channel4.com/news/grenfell-inquiry-into-britains-worst-civil-disaster-in-21st-century-opens-with-moving-testimony

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RddAQ0pyUXE

There was an even more powerful and damning interview from a 16th floor resident who escaped thanks to a neighbour who phoned him as he slept and shouted "GET OUT NOW....IMMEDIATELY".

He had been on the Grenfell Residents Action group who had raised concerns over the cladding and numerous other issues with RBK&C and KCTMO, but were continually 'stonewalled'.

There has to be accountability and i expect at the very least to see custodial sentences.

His experience is chilling and staggering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxMEAAOTt30




Edited by Bulletguy 2018-05-21 11:08 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 5 November 2018 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562
userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 6:21 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


Yes I saw some idiots had burnt a Boris Johnson look alike on their bonfire too ... Dont know whats going on
userJohn52
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:31 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Yes I really dislike the idea of burning Grenfell Tower or anyone else including Boris Johnson.
But then I don't like the idea of burning Guy Fawkes either - and 'celebrating' that was compulsory until 1959.
userJohn52
Posted: 6 November 2018 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


Thats what I thought when Osborne said he wouldn't rest until Theresa May was chopped up in bags in his freezer: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/13/george-osborne-criticised-for-gruesome-remarks-against-theresa-may
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........





userTracker
Posted: 6 November 2018 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I don't condone the burning of a cardboard model but maybe they are as hacked off as many of us with the outpouring of false grief and public (taxpayers) and generously donated private money to so many of these people who, considering they allegedly had nothing seem to have done very well out of Grenfell - I don't see any evidence of them sharing their very profitable gains with those less fortunate?

The whole episode stinks of corruption from the top to the very bottom.

You too could get a new iphone with the savings as there is no need to insure your home because if it burns down just use Faceache to get sympathy and loadsa cash from other people.
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 2:12 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.

You were invited, by another poster on this thread, to make your own thread about this particular matter but you were so "concerned" you never even bothered!
userStuartO
Posted: 6 November 2018 3:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 
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Interesting that the men involved were arrested on suspicion of a public order offence (then presumably released on bail) while the police figure out whether any offence was committed and sufficient evidence to take to court.

Setting aside any question of perceptions of tastelessness or tactlessness which we might have about this action, doesn't the possibility of prosecution raise a question of freedom of speech?






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userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Much worse is said and done with zero consequences ... Cant say its the most tasteful thing Ive ever seen but far from the worst ... Grenfell has become one of those untouchables that you cant criticise like Islam or homosexuality ... In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ... I think part of what they fought for was freedom of speech however that might upset some
userViolet1956
Posted: 6 November 2018 4:25 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


2000500100252525


I agree that this incident does raise important questions regarding the freedom of speech and where the line has to be drawn in relation to that freedom and criminality. Hopefully the police investigation will fall the right side of that line.
userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 4:25 PM

I agree that this incident does raise important questions regarding the freedom of speech and where the line has to be drawn in relation to that freedom and criminality. Hopefully the police investigation will fall the right side of that line.


Personally I think the investigation will fall bang on line with PC correctness
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........

userJohn52
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-11-06 4:18 PM

.. In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ...


Some will be doing more and wearing a white poppy to pay their respects to everyone who dies in the war, including but not just the military.
The white poppy is non-political too.
No subtle political propoganda like 'They died for our freedom' which claims the war was necessary.
userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2018-11-06 5:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-06 4:18 PM

.. In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ...


Some will be doing more and wearing a white poppy to pay their respects to everyone who dies in the war, including but not just the military.
The white poppy is non-political too.
No subtle political propoganda like 'They died for our freedom' which claims the war was necessary.


Never seen that "war was necessary" from those selling poppies ... Please show ... You been on the riz cos your post dont make much sense ... As usual
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:37 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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John52 - 2018-11-06 5:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-06 4:18 PM

.. In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ...


Some will be doing more and wearing a white poppy to pay their respects to everyone who dies in the war, including but not just the military.
The white poppy is non-political too.
No subtle political propoganda like 'They died for our freedom' which claims the war was necessary.


So you'd prefer to be speaking German rather than bullsh*t? ........

userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 5:43 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:24 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........



See Sineads gone all Muslim ... She hates whites ... https://twitter.com/PrisonPlanet/status/1059821293829324802
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 4:25 PM

I agree that this incident does raise important questions regarding the freedom of speech and where the line has to be drawn in relation to that freedom and criminality. Hopefully the police investigation will fall the right side of that line.

I don't quite see the relevance of this incident to freedom of speech Veronica when bystanders were heard mockingly saying, “Help me, help me!” and “Jump out the window!” One of them waggled a cutout of a person in a window, several of which appeared to have been coloured brown. To laughter, one person said “Stay in your flat, we are coming to get you” and “That’s what happens when they don’t pay their rent.”

Five men are now being questioned over it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/06/grenfell-bonfire-video-police-search-house-as-five-men-questioned

Not quite the same but similar, i remember watching an episode of "Four Rooms" where people bring articles of value and/or interest in the hope of getting a sale to one of the four dealers. Some idiot brought a metal model he'd crafted of the entrance at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It may have just scraped by on 'interest' value had he left it as plain metal....but the idiot had covered with gold leaf. Needless to say not one dealer would touch it and had no hesitations in telling him why.
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:24 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........

So that's a firm conclusive "NO" then....you have absolutely zero evidence they "didn't ripoff the taxpayer" but was something you just made up?

And you also edited this out to avoid replying;
Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM
You were invited, by another poster on this thread, to make your own thread about this particular matter (false claimants) but you were so "concerned" you never even bothered!

So it obviously didn't trouble you much after all.

userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:13 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 6:22 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:24 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........

So that's a firm conclusive "NO" then....you have absolutely zero evidence they "didn't ripoff the taxpayer" but was something you just made up?

And you also edited this out to avoid replying;
Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM
You were invited, by another poster on this thread, to make your own thread about this particular matter (false claimants) but you were so "concerned" you never even bothered!

So it obviously didn't trouble you much after all.



Blimey Bullet....... you really are a desperate old fool ........

How you must hate being a white Brit ........

Assuming you haven't reassigned your heritage .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-06 7:17 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Personally I didn't find the burning of the model Grenfell funny at all but a full blown murder style investigation and the horror of some is totally hypocritical given the silence from them on those who've tried to fraudulently claim thousands on the back of death ... They'd rather scream disgust at this ... Our modern world aint it
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 7:13 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 6:22 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:24 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........

So that's a firm conclusive "NO" then....you have absolutely zero evidence they "didn't ripoff the taxpayer" but was something you just made up?

And you also edited this out to avoid replying;
Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM
You were invited, by another poster on this thread, to make your own thread about this particular matter (false claimants) but you were so "concerned" you never even bothered!

So it obviously didn't trouble you much after all.



Blimey Bullet....... you really are a desperate old fool ........

How you must hate being a white Brit ........

Assuming you haven't reassigned your heritage .........

Your inability to address what i put before you and what i posted, speaks volumes.
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:33 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-11-06 7:24 PM

Personally I didn't find the burning of the model Grenfell funny at all but a full blown murder style investigation and the horror of some is totally hypocritical given the silence from them on those who've tried to fraudulently claim thousands on the back of death ... They'd rather scream disgust at this ... Our modern world aint it


It's bound to become a feeding frenzy for the PC brigade ..........

I wonder if they'll get longer prison sentence than those who stole 1000's from the taxpayer? ..........

Assuming they can charge them with anything more than gallows humour? ..........

userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 7:33 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 7:13 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 6:22 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:24 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 9:46 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-05 10:18 PM


There are some extremely sick minded people out there that makes me despair what kind of society we've become. Their mindset has no place in any society at all.....and not even fit to inhabit the sewers.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/05/police-appeal-video-mock-up-grenfell-tower-burned

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-46099562


At least those sicko's didn't ripoff the taxpayer unlike some of the pretend victims ..........

And you know this as indisputable fact? Without a credible link that is pure assumption and nothing else. And to be clear (as i know you will attempt to twist it around) i'm referring to the bold.

Not seen you complaining about them though? ............

Is it coz they ain't white Brits? .........

Colour, ethnicity etc has no bearing to me on wrong doing. If a person has been found guilty of an offence through due process and sentence passed, that's it. Their offences were as despicable as the very nasty posts you and your cohort have made on this thread about 'foreign type folk'.



It's quite evident from the posts you make and the threads you start .........

You have a touch of the "Sinead O'connors about you ...........

So that's a firm conclusive "NO" then....you have absolutely zero evidence they "didn't ripoff the taxpayer" but was something you just made up?

And you also edited this out to avoid replying;
Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 2:12 PM
You were invited, by another poster on this thread, to make your own thread about this particular matter (false claimants) but you were so "concerned" you never even bothered!

So it obviously didn't trouble you much after all.



Blimey Bullet....... you really are a desperate old fool ........

How you must hate being a white Brit ........

Assuming you haven't reassigned your heritage .........

Your inability to address what i put before you and what i posted, speaks volumes.


Yeah........ what ever Dumb Dumb ............

I'm happy in the colour of my skin and heritage .........

I get the feeling your not? ...........



userantony1969
Posted: 6 November 2018 7:39 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


The special one

Posts: 10906
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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 7:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-06 7:24 PM

Personally I didn't find the burning of the model Grenfell funny at all but a full blown murder style investigation and the horror of some is totally hypocritical given the silence from them on those who've tried to fraudulently claim thousands on the back of death ... They'd rather scream disgust at this ... Our modern world aint it


It's bound to become a feeding frenzy for the PC brigade ..........

I wonder if they'll get longer prison sentence than those who stole 1000's from the taxpayer? ..........

Assuming they can charge them with anything more than gallows humour? ..........



Prolly get longer sentences ... Its guna be portrayed as having racist undertones ... Im sure the powers that be will find sumat to charge em with ... 20 years for bad taste maybe
userViolet1956
Posted: 6 November 2018 8:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


2000500100252525


Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 6:11 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 4:25 PM

I agree that this incident does raise important questions regarding the freedom of speech and where the line has to be drawn in relation to that freedom and criminality. Hopefully the police investigation will fall the right side of that line.

I don't quite see the relevance of this incident to freedom of speech Veronica when bystanders were heard mockingly saying, “Help me, help me!” and “Jump out the window!” One of them waggled a cutout of a person in a window, several of which appeared to have been coloured brown. To laughter, one person said “Stay in your flat, we are coming to get you” and “That’s what happens when they don’t pay their rent.”

Five men are now being questioned over it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/06/grenfell-bonfire-video-police-search-house-as-five-men-questioned

Not quite the same but similar, i remember watching an episode of "Four Rooms" where people bring articles of value and/or interest in the hope of getting a sale to one of the four dealers. Some idiot brought a metal model he'd crafted of the entrance at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It may have just scraped by on 'interest' value had he left it as plain metal....but the idiot had covered with gold leaf. Needless to say not one dealer would touch it and had no hesitations in telling him why.


I suspect you're right BG as I have seen the descriptions of the content but not the video itself. I think they have some explaining to do but am reluctant to make a judgement just yet until the police have done their job. Some of the darkest and most tasteless comedy has something to say about sacred cows.
userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 8:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 6:11 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 4:25 PM

I agree that this incident does raise important questions regarding the freedom of speech and where the line has to be drawn in relation to that freedom and criminality. Hopefully the police investigation will fall the right side of that line.

I don't quite see the relevance of this incident to freedom of speech Veronica when bystanders were heard mockingly saying, “Help me, help me!” and “Jump out the window!” One of them waggled a cutout of a person in a window, several of which appeared to have been coloured brown. To laughter, one person said “Stay in your flat, we are coming to get you” and “That’s what happens when they don’t pay their rent.”

Five men are now being questioned over it.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/06/grenfell-bonfire-video-police-search-house-as-five-men-questioned

Not quite the same but similar, i remember watching an episode of "Four Rooms" where people bring articles of value and/or interest in the hope of getting a sale to one of the four dealers. Some idiot brought a metal model he'd crafted of the entrance at Auschwitz-Birkenau. It may have just scraped by on 'interest' value had he left it as plain metal....but the idiot had covered with gold leaf. Needless to say not one dealer would touch it and had no hesitations in telling him why.


I suspect you're right BG as I have seen the descriptions of the content but not the video itself. I think they have some explaining to do but am reluctant to make a judgement just yet until the police have done their job. Some of the darkest and most tasteless comedy has something to say about sacred cows.

The hate filled verbals were enough for me and their actions compounded it further. Subhuman species.
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 8:18 PM

The hate filled verbals were enough for me and their actions compounded it further. Subhuman species.


You mean like shouting Allahu Ackbar after being convicted of the rape of children? ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 6 November 2018 9:22 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 8:27 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 8:18 PM

The hate filled verbals were enough for me and their actions compounded it further. Subhuman species.


You mean like shouting Allahu Ackbar after being convicted of the rape of children? ........

Stop hijacking and disrupting threads to promote your vile hateful agenda. Go away and make your own thread elsewhere because the garbage you're spouting has no absolutely no relevance here.
userpelmetman
Posted: 6 November 2018 9:27 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 9:22 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-06 8:27 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-06 8:18 PM

The hate filled verbals were enough for me and their actions compounded it further. Subhuman species.


You mean like shouting Allahu Ackbar after being convicted of the rape of children? ........

Stop hijacking and disrupting threads to promote your vile hateful agenda. Go away and make your own thread elsewhere because the garbage you're spouting has no absolutely no relevance here.


Why am I not surprised about who you class as subhuman species ...........

How you must hate being a white Brit .........

At least those subhumans you hate only destroyed a wooden effigy........not any lives .......



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-06 9:32 PM
userViolet1956
Posted: 6 November 2018 11:24 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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One could add that publishing this video is not as bad as murdering 6 million Jews, flying planes into the World Trade Centre, killing police officers, placing bombs in Christmas markets, driving cars into people on Westminster Bridge etc. etc. but that would stating the bleedin’ obvious wouldn’t it?
userantony1969
Posted: 7 November 2018 6:00 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Strange how the burning of a mock block of flats gets some all hot under the colour but utter silence when islamic terrorists strike murdering and slaughtering as they go , even attempts to play it down
userJohn52
Posted: 7 November 2018 7:43 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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antony1969 - 2018-11-06 5:37 PM

John52 - 2018-11-06 5:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-06 4:18 PM

.. In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ...


Some will be doing more and wearing a white poppy to pay their respects to everyone who dies in the war, including but not just the military.
The white poppy is non-political too.
No subtle political propoganda like 'They died for our freedom' which claims the war was necessary.


Never seen that "war was necessary" from those selling poppies ... Please show ... You been on the riz cos your post dont make much sense ... As usual


Do you need me to explain the link between 'They died for our freedom' and claiming the war was necessary?
userJohn52
Posted: 7 November 2018 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-06 5:37 PM

John52 - 2018-11-06 5:33 PM

antony1969 - 2018-11-06 4:18 PM

.. In less than a week most of us decent folk will pay our respects to those who fought and died for us ...


Some will be doing more and wearing a white poppy to pay their respects to everyone who dies in the war, including but not just the military.
The white poppy is non-political too.
No subtle political propoganda like 'They died for our freedom' which claims the war was necessary.


So you'd prefer to be speaking German rather than bullsh*t? ........



In some ways yes, because the standard of living is better in Germany now
Losing the war was like a farmer setting fire to his fields - devastating in the short term but beneficial in the long term because fresh young growth comes back stronger.
Wheras Britain still has all the dead wood that holds us back - the Unelected and Unaccountable Aristocracy etc etc
Younger members of my family have emigrated and all are doing very well. But I'm too old to do it now.
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 November 2018 7:51 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 11:24 PM

One could add that publishing this video is not as bad as murdering 6 million Jews, flying planes into the World Trade Centre, killing police officers, placing bombs in Christmas markets, driving cars into people on Westminster Bridge etc. etc. but that would stating the bleedin’ obvious wouldn’t it?


I suspect a certain person on here would never describe any of those carrying out such atrocities as "Sub Human" ............

userBulletguy
Posted: 7 November 2018 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 11:24 PM

One could add that publishing this video is not as bad as murdering 6 million Jews, flying planes into the World Trade Centre, killing police officers, placing bombs in Christmas markets, driving cars into people on Westminster Bridge etc. etc. but that would stating the bleedin’ obvious wouldn’t it?

It's worth remembering almost as many Russians were murdered under the Nazi regime yet rarely get so much as a mention, along with many others; https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

But regards this offence i don't see how the level of it can be justified by lessening it more serious heinous crimes of inhumanity otherwise we may as well say pick pockets are ok because they only steal a little bit where a bank robber steals thousands.

Rather than the level of the offence, i looked at the nature of it. People of this mindset are the same types who gleefully taunt a suicidal person threatening to jump, just as some did at a multi storey carpark in Birmingham, filming on their phones and shouting at the guy to "hurry up and get it over with" whilst police were frantically trying to save the guy.
userViolet1956
Posted: 7 November 2018 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


2000500100252525


Bulletguy - 2018-11-07 5:10 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 11:24 PM

One could add that publishing this video is not as bad as murdering 6 million Jews, flying planes into the World Trade Centre, killing police officers, placing bombs in Christmas markets, driving cars into people on Westminster Bridge etc. etc. but that would stating the bleedin’ obvious wouldn’t it?

It's worth remembering almost as many Russians were murdered under the Nazi regime yet rarely get so much as a mention, along with many others; https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

But regards this offence i don't see how the level of it can be justified by lessening it more serious heinous crimes of inhumanity otherwise we may as well say pick pockets are ok because they only steal a little bit where a bank robber steals thousands.

Rather than the level of the offence, i looked at the nature of it. People of this mindset are the same types who gleefully taunt a suicidal person threatening to jump, just as some did at a multi storey carpark in Birmingham, filming on their phones and shouting at the guy to "hurry up and get it over with" whilst police were frantically trying to save the guy.

I agree BG. The very nature of the "offence" is that it reveals an inhumanity the like of which has been the root of much suffering with varying consequences throughout history right up to the present day. Just to brush it off without calling it out would be to risk that such vile sentiments become acceptable.

Edited by Violet1956 2018-11-07 5:40 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 7 November 2018 6:22 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-07 5:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-07 5:10 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-11-06 11:24 PM

One could add that publishing this video is not as bad as murdering 6 million Jews, flying planes into the World Trade Centre, killing police officers, placing bombs in Christmas markets, driving cars into people on Westminster Bridge etc. etc. but that would stating the bleedin’ obvious wouldn’t it?

It's worth remembering almost as many Russians were murdered under the Nazi regime yet rarely get so much as a mention, along with many others; https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

But regards this offence i don't see how the level of it can be justified by lessening it more serious heinous crimes of inhumanity otherwise we may as well say pick pockets are ok because they only steal a little bit where a bank robber steals thousands.

Rather than the level of the offence, i looked at the nature of it. People of this mindset are the same types who gleefully taunt a suicidal person threatening to jump, just as some did at a multi storey carpark in Birmingham, filming on their phones and shouting at the guy to "hurry up and get it over with" whilst police were frantically trying to save the guy.

I agree BG. The very nature of the "offence" is that it reveals an inhumanity the like of which has been the root of much suffering with varying consequences throughout history right up to the present day. Just to brush it off without calling it out would be to risk that such vile sentiments become acceptable.

It was a public display in their back garden which other neighbours witnessed. That the men filmed it on their phones and uploaded it to social media showed their intent which went from bad to worse. All six men were arrested under section 4a of the 1986 Public Order Act, now released under investigation. In my opinion it was a racially motivated hate crime and nothing less.

Sometimes YouTube get's abused with vile rubbish like this though they are pretty good at removing offensive material, Twitter and Facebook is not quite as thorough.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-07 5:39 PM

The very nature of the "offence" is that it reveals an inhumanity the like of which has been the root of much suffering with varying consequences throughout history right up to the present day. Just to brush it off without calling it out would be to risk that such vile sentiments become acceptable.



Nope........It just proves that gallows humour still exists .......

I suspect they will suffer Socially and financially much more than if they'd actually committed a crime ........
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-07 5:10 PM


It's worth remembering almost as many Russians were murdered under the Nazi regime yet rarely get so much as a mention, along with many others; https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/holocaust-non-jewish-victims_n_6555604

.


It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-08 9:57 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 November 2018 5:20 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.

Whatever name is given to a dog, it is a dog (I met a pug the other day, its name was Princess - I didn't bow to it! ), and Hitler and his Nazis were fascists: the polar opposite to communists.

They are at the extreme of right wing thinking, just as communists are at the extreme of left wing thinking, at the point at which the two creeds become inseparable in practice, and begin to bleed into each other.

Beware extremists, they do funny things in the name of doing what is right (or left!).
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.

Whatever name is given to a dog, it is a dog (I met a pug the other day, its name was Princess - I didn't bow to it! ), and Hitler and his Nazis were fascists: the polar opposite to communists.

They are at the extreme of right wing thinking, just as communists are at the extreme of left wing thinking, at the point at which the two creeds become inseparable in practice, and begin to bleed into each other.

Beware extremists, they do funny things in the name of doing what is right (or left!).


Perhaps you could flag up a few Conservatives who became dictators to back up your argument Brian?

..........

Just sayin ..........

userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.



Best you update the BBC and the rest of Socialist history whilst your at it ........

"In July 1921, he took over the leadership of the party, by then renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), and, less than 12 years later, it had become the largest party in Germany and Hitler was Reich Chancellor. Why then did Hitler choose to join the NSDAP and effectively adopt politics as a career, and what personal qualities, abilities and political opinions did he bring with him from his previous life, which may help to explain his choice and his subsequent career?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/hitler_01.shtml

If you want to vote in another antisemite Brian.........That's your choice .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

Whatever name is given to a dog, it is a dog (I met a pug the other day, its name was Princess - I didn't bow to it! ), and Hitler and his Nazis were fascists: the polar opposite to communists.


You do surprise me Brian ........

Anyone who know's their dogs would know that Communism, Fascism, Nazism all come from the same Socialist bitch ..........

Us Tory dogs would never mix with them ........

userViolet1956
Posted: 8 November 2018 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-08 6:08 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.



Best you update the BBC and the rest of Socialist history whilst your at it ........

"In July 1921, he took over the leadership of the party, by then renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), and, less than 12 years later, it had become the largest party in Germany and Hitler was Reich Chancellor. Why then did Hitler choose to join the NSDAP and effectively adopt politics as a career, and what personal qualities, abilities and political opinions did he bring with him from his previous life, which may help to explain his choice and his subsequent career?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/hitler_01.shtml

If you want to vote in another antisemite Brian.........That's your choice .......

Oops I don't think you read the whole article Dave.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 November 2018 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-08 7:50 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 6:08 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.



Best you update the BBC and the rest of Socialist history whilst your at it ........

"In July 1921, he took over the leadership of the party, by then renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), and, less than 12 years later, it had become the largest party in Germany and Hitler was Reich Chancellor. Why then did Hitler choose to join the NSDAP and effectively adopt politics as a career, and what personal qualities, abilities and political opinions did he bring with him from his previous life, which may help to explain his choice and his subsequent career?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/hitler_01.shtml

If you want to vote in another antisemite Brian.........That's your choice .......

Oops I don't think you read the whole article Dave.


I do tend to filter out the left wing bias from the facts Veronica .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 8 November 2018 11:45 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Violet1956 - 2018-11-08 7:50 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 6:08 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.



Best you update the BBC and the rest of Socialist history whilst your at it ........

"In July 1921, he took over the leadership of the party, by then renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), and, less than 12 years later, it had become the largest party in Germany and Hitler was Reich Chancellor. Why then did Hitler choose to join the NSDAP and effectively adopt politics as a career, and what personal qualities, abilities and political opinions did he bring with him from his previous life, which may help to explain his choice and his subsequent career?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/hitler_01.shtml

If you want to vote in another antisemite Brian.........That's your choice .......

Oops I don't think you read the whole article Dave.

You're wasting your time. He's been drinking again hence the inane claptrap he's posted most of the day....not that it's much better when he's sober.

This 'Hitler was a socialist' rubbish has been perpetuated for years by right wing revisionists in America which is where it has it's roots and why the two usual suspects who hang on everything and anything far right, soak such drivel up. I posted a link to an article which explains in detail how/why Hitlers use of 'socialist' was added to the NSDAP which had formerly been the DAP (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Arbeiter means 'worker' in German but Hitler wanted his ideology to encompass all so what better than to add "Nationalist Socialist". It's a misnomer but it worked. There wasn't any pictures in the article so i knew it would be beyond Pelmethead.

DPRK is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea so using the nutjob revisionists view, North Korea must be a democratic country. Well it says it is in the abbreviation doesn't it? Oddly enough you won't hear them try to argue this one.
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 November 2018 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-08 11:45 PM

Violet1956 - 2018-11-08 7:50 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 6:08 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-08 5:20 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-08 9:56 AM...………………...It's worth remembering that Hitler was a Socialist ..........Not a Tory ..........

Just thought I'd mention that before you made another attempt at reaching the moral high ground ........

Well, he wasn't, was he? National Socialism is merely a translation of the German Nationalsozialis.

The mere use of the word "socialism" does not turn a sinner into a saint, or vice versa. By their deeds shall you know them.



Best you update the BBC and the rest of Socialist history whilst your at it ........

"In July 1921, he took over the leadership of the party, by then renamed the National Socialist German Workers' Party (NSDAP), and, less than 12 years later, it had become the largest party in Germany and Hitler was Reich Chancellor. Why then did Hitler choose to join the NSDAP and effectively adopt politics as a career, and what personal qualities, abilities and political opinions did he bring with him from his previous life, which may help to explain his choice and his subsequent career?"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/hitler_01.shtml

If you want to vote in another antisemite Brian.........That's your choice .......

Oops I don't think you read the whole article Dave.

You're wasting your time. He's been drinking again hence the inane claptrap he's posted most of the day....not that it's much better when he's sober.

This 'Hitler was a socialist' rubbish has been perpetuated for years by right wing revisionists in America which is where it has it's roots and why the two usual suspects who hang on everything and anything far right, soak such drivel up. I posted a link to an article which explains in detail how/why Hitlers use of 'socialist' was added to the NSDAP which had formerly been the DAP (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei). Arbeiter means 'worker' in German but Hitler wanted his ideology to encompass all so what better than to add "Nationalist Socialist". It's a misnomer but it worked. There wasn't any pictures in the article so i knew it would be beyond Pelmethead.

DPRK is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea so using the nutjob revisionists view, North Korea must be a democratic country. Well it says it is in the abbreviation doesn't it? Oddly enough you won't hear them try to argue this one.


Rewriting history doesn't change the Facts Bullet, no matter how much you loony lefties try ........

Have you written Mussollini or Blair out of Socialism's History yet? .........



userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 November 2018 10:13 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!
userViolet1956
Posted: 9 November 2018 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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If history could be reduced to one-liners Dave could be the next A J P Taylor.
userBulletguy
Posted: 9 November 2018 4:12 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Turns out one of the six men police arrested owns an £8 million block of flats. I wonder what the tenants think of their 'landlord'?

Apparently Bussetti has now gone off into hiding with his wife and daughter though it seems keeping a low profile is not something he's best known for. Wears lots of flash jewellery, drives around in a black Range Rover with personal plates and a sign on their house reads "The Bussetti Family - Party Animals".

Not much love lost from neighbours either who described them as "‘Racists, lager louts, scumbags and EDL wannabes."

Uff......the Bussetti's fit the profile of the perfect nightmare neighbour from Hell.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/07/man-arrested-over-grenfell-bonfire-is-party-animal-whose-dad-was-murdered-8115462/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7679392/grenfell-effigy-sicko-is-party-animal-millionaire-whose-dad-was-murdered-in-grisly-suitcase-killing-as-wife-and-daughter-go-into-hiding/
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 9:12 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-11-09 4:12 PM


Turns out one of the six men police arrested owns an £8 million block of flats. I wonder what the tenants think of their 'landlord'?

Apparently Bussetti has now gone off into hiding with his wife and daughter though it seems keeping a low profile is not something he's best known for. Wears lots of flash jewellery, drives around in a black Range Rover with personal plates and a sign on their house reads "The Bussetti Family - Party Animals".

Not much love lost from neighbours either who described them as "‘Racists, lager louts, scumbags and EDL wannabes."

Uff......the Bussetti's fit the profile of the perfect nightmare neighbour from Hell.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/07/man-arrested-over-grenfell-bonfire-is-party-animal-whose-dad-was-murdered-8115462/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7679392/grenfell-effigy-sicko-is-party-animal-millionaire-whose-dad-was-murdered-in-grisly-suitcase-killing-as-wife-and-daughter-go-into-hiding/


I wonder when the forums screaming pussy brigade will demand those who burnt an effigy of Boris Johnson are arrested? ............

userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 9:23 AM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 November 2018 12:53 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history. It all gets a bit messy around the edges, as to who is in which camp. I'm attaching a few Wiki links to illustrate what I mean.

Socialism: http://tinyurl.com/lhoa8lr
National Socialism: http://tinyurl.com/yda2ll4k
Totalitarianism: http://tinyurl.com/d3wn7jf
Capitalism: http://tinyurl.com/ph9txck
Communism: http://tinyurl.com/oz9laty

However, what I think you are really focusing on is Totalitarianism (which is where the extreme examples of Nazism and Communism come in), while overlooking all the variations of democratic politics that have socialist and/or capitalist foundations. I think this is a huge over-simplification which argues, basically, that if something isn't black it must be white, and rejects all shades of grey and any colours.

I have therefore tended to see you as a somewhat extreme Anarchist ( http://tinyurl.com/yc62q4un ), rather than a supporter of any established democratic system.

There are a few examples of Anarchic local government in Israel, Bolivia, Mexico, Brazil, Algeria and northern Syria, but there no Anarchic national governments - from which one might conclude it is not that popular, successful, or workable.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 1:59 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history. It all gets a bit messy around the edges, as to who is in which camp. I'm attaching a few Wiki links to illustrate what I mean.

Socialism: http://tinyurl.com/lhoa8lr
National Socialism: http://tinyurl.com/yda2ll4k
Totalitarianism: http://tinyurl.com/d3wn7jf
Capitalism: http://tinyurl.com/ph9txck
Communism: http://tinyurl.com/oz9laty

However, what I think you are really focusing on is Totalitarianism (which is where the extreme examples of Nazism and Communism come in), while overlooking all the variations of democratic politics that have socialist and/or capitalist foundations. I think this is a huge over-simplification which argues, basically, that if something isn't black it must be white, and rejects all shades of grey and any colours.

I have therefore tended to see you as a somewhat extreme Anarchist ( http://tinyurl.com/yc62q4un ), rather than a supporter of any established democratic system.

There are a few examples of Anarchic local government in Israel, Bolivia, Mexico, Brazil, Algeria and northern Syria, but there no Anarchic national governments - from which one might conclude it is not that popular, successful, or workable.


Extreme Anarchist? ............

You've really been suckered by the left wing academics haven't you Brian .........

It took me a while to work it out ..........But I'm a natural Tory with a extreme aversion to left wing tosh ..........

Where as I think your a Liberal with intellectually snobbish views of those of "Us who don't agree with the status quo" ...........

Discuss .........

BTW Brian you forgot......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

We're the nice "Ism" on the block who have to constantly sort out the sh*t from the other "Ism's" .........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-11-10 2:16 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 November 2018 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 1:59 PM...……………………...
Extreme Anarchist? ............

You've really been suckered by the left wing academics haven't you Brian .........

No, just by what you say on here!

It took me a while to work it out ..........But I'm a natural Tory with a extreme aversion to left wing tosh ..........

There's no such thing. I would have said more Whiggish than Tory, but definitely not a natural Conservative. You're to the right of the Rees Mogg wing - and he's not at all natural!

Where as I think your a Liberal with intellectually snobbish views of those of "Us who don't agree with the status quo" ...........

Can't be snobbish, I'm talking to you! Liberal, Socialist, Conservative etc are just pigeon holes. Not sure I belong in any of their boxes. Too restricting for my liking. I agree with some of each of their policies, but I don't buy the whole bag of any of them. Floating voter, me!

Discuss .........
See above.

BTW Brian you forgot...… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism We're the nice "Ism" on the block who have to constantly sort out the sh*t from the other "Ism's" ......…

True at times, but then one of the other "isms" has to step in to clear up the ordures left behind by your "ism". Not being an "ismist", I can see this, whereas you "ism" people can never see your own "ism's" ordures. For example, your "ism" is presently in deep doo doo (and that is serious ordures), but you "ismists" can't (yet) see that - though everyone else can!

I just mourn the colossal amounts of public money wasted on bloody "isms", instead of sitting down and working out what would best benefit the whole country, settling an agenda, and embarking on a phased programme to implement it.

Apologies if this brings on an acute attack of cognitive dissonance!
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 5:54 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 5:32 PM
For example, your "ism" is presently in deep doo doo (and that is serious ordures), but you "ismists" can't (yet) see that - though everyone else can!



Really Brian?.........Cant you smell the Populist pong pervading Europe? ........

Perhaps the leftist ordure in your vignette is obscuring your sensible cells? .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:01 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 5:32 PM

Can't be snobbish, I'm talking to you!



You mean you like to talk down to me .........

Just sayin .......

Not particularly bothered, as I've spent years working for folk like you .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:12 AM

Bulletguy - 2018-11-09 4:12 PM


Turns out one of the six men police arrested owns an £8 million block of flats. I wonder what the tenants think of their 'landlord'?

Apparently Bussetti has now gone off into hiding with his wife and daughter though it seems keeping a low profile is not something he's best known for. Wears lots of flash jewellery, drives around in a black Range Rover with personal plates and a sign on their house reads "The Bussetti Family - Party Animals".

Not much love lost from neighbours either who described them as "‘Racists, lager louts, scumbags and EDL wannabes."

Uff......the Bussetti's fit the profile of the perfect nightmare neighbour from Hell.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/11/07/man-arrested-over-grenfell-bonfire-is-party-animal-whose-dad-was-murdered-8115462/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7679392/grenfell-effigy-sicko-is-party-animal-millionaire-whose-dad-was-murdered-in-grisly-suitcase-killing-as-wife-and-daughter-go-into-hiding/


I wonder when the forums screaming pussy brigade will demand those who burnt an effigy of Boris Johnson are arrested? ............

You keep using this whenever stuck for credible response.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/whataboutery
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 6:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 5:32 PM

Can't be snobbish, I'm talking to you!



You mean you like to talk down to me .........

Just sayin .......

Not particularly bothered, as I've spent years working for folk like you .......

Down to you! Bloody cheek! I've always treated you as a social equal! Besides, folk like me can't afford your rates.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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pelmetman - 2018-11-10 6:01 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 5:32 PM

Can't be snobbish, I'm talking to you!



You mean you like to talk down to me .........

Just sayin .......

Not particularly bothered, as I've spent years working for folk like you .......

Down to you! Bloody cheek! I've always treated you as a social equal! Besides, folk like me can't afford your rates.
userBulletguy
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-11-10 12:53 PM

pelmetman - 2018-11-10 9:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2018-11-09 10:13 AM

I don't think he even read my post, let alone the bbc link. Names, dogs etc. Woof Woof!


Just because our left wing academics try to rewrite history Brian ............

It doesn't mean you have to believe it ............

As I said earlier ......Communism, Nazism, Fascism are all the spawn of Socialism .........

They're all members of the same dysfunctional family who take it in turns to be top dog .........

Which is why Labour now has a communist lap dog in charge ..........

If you cant see the truth then you're clearly .......Barking .........

I'm not sure who it is that re-writing history.

Revisionist right wing fruit loops which has been pointed out to him before but he won't read and learn so his head is totally fuddled now he's even trying to claim it as an agenda by the left! To say he's batsh1t bonkers would be a gross understatement!

Where else has this 'Hitler was a socialist' tripe come from? No less than what it states in this article and spreads throughout the type of far right trash websites that feeds dummies who soak this drivel up.

"This revisionism has been gaining ground for years in the right-wing parallel universe in the United States."

https://www.abc.net.au/religion/nazism-socialism-and-the-falsification-of-history/10214302
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 November 2018 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: Grenfell Tower
 


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