Have we been deliberately misled?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 December 2018 11:00 AM
Subject: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

This link https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhaff/857/857.pdf leads to the July 2018 Interim Report to parliament by the Home Affairs Select Committee. Download a copy and read it - especially Chapter 3: Existing applicable controls, commencing on page 15.

It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel, which quotes dates and figures, and sets out in more detail how the existing regulations could have been used, quite legally, to reduce the numbers entering (or, if judged preferable, control how many were admitted over what period/s of time).

At the every least, this should make you a little cautious about who it was, in fact, who made these levels of immigration possible, and who it was who actually had the power to reduce the numbers. Interesting reading!

Remember that these are the direct findings of a cross-party UK Parliamentary Select Committee (so not media "edited"), into the background to past immigration from the EU, and to propose better ways to manage this in future.

It will become clear from the timescales that this is not a party-political issue (as should become evident from the membership of the committee), as both main parties were in government over the period concerned.

I find it strange that this report has not gained greater publicity, and wonder why that might be?
usermalc d
Posted: 17 December 2018 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 
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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM


I find it strange that this report has not gained greater publicity, and wonder why that might be?





A) Politicians are unlikely to admit their mistakes ?



( ...and it's a bit late now to publish it )


usersnowie
Posted: 17 December 2018 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Only read pgs 15-17, but certainly suggests that we might have followed Belgium’s lead.

I wonder if registration, of UK nationals as well as EU citizens might be a step too far for libertarian governments.
I’ve never seen any problems with this.

Presumably this can all be taken into account during the negotiations that might start in the new year

Snowie

Edited by snowie 2018-12-17 12:32 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 December 2018 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Any future arrangements will, of course, have to be negotiated. However, what struck me most forcibly was the information given in the linked Bruegel and EU Law Analysis items (linked at the foot of page 15 under refs 44 and 45).

I assume that both being linked in the committee report means they are considered reliable sources. Both seem to me to say, quite unequivocally, that governments had been making false claims as to the nature of our EU free movement obligations.

Since the referendum result was (and still is!) so widely blamed on migration, with many citing EU migration in particular, the implication is that the government actively encouraged people to believe that the reason for EU migration was EU law, while it was more accurately the failure of those governments to apply the EU laws.

In short, that Brexit was born of government obfuscation and, it has to be said, lies, regarding its immigration obligations under EU legislation - let alone handing UKIP carte blanche justification for their bare-faced lie about Turkish migration. If government had come clean, we may simply have had an election to clear away the offending party, rather than a referendum with an outcome based on misinformation.
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 December 2018 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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snowie - 2018-12-17 12:08 PM

Only read pgs 15-17, but certainly suggests that we might have followed Belgium’s lead.

I wonder if registration, of UK nationals as well as EU citizens might be a step too far for libertarian governments.
I’ve never seen any problems with this.

Presumably this can all be taken into account during the negotiations that might start in the new year

Snowie

Not quite the same but similar, if you remember the ID car scheme being suggested which brought howls of protest from the public of "state monitoring" so that got dropped. Not sure why folk reacted that way as we are the most surveilled state in the west anyway so a card wouldn't have mattered that much! It certainly would have been easier than carrying a passport when out of UK and ID cards are all that EU citizens need to travel in Europe.
usersnowie
Posted: 17 December 2018 5:01 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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I’m not a big fan of taking on trade arrangements that have been devised by/for other countries, and Norway+ has usually been rejected on the basis of free movement of people.

I’ve always thought that movement to a job, rather than in search of a job made more sense, and I consider myself to be pretty liberal.
I think we would not be alone in implementing controls.
Snowie
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 December 2018 5:07 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 3:50 PM

Any future arrangements will, of course, have to be negotiated. However, what struck me most forcibly was the information given in the linked Bruegel and EU Law Analysis items (linked at the foot of page 15 under refs 44 and 45).

I assume that both being linked in the committee report means they are considered reliable sources. Both seem to me to say, quite unequivocally, that governments had been making false claims as to the nature of our EU free movement obligations.

Since the referendum result was (and still is!) so widely blamed on migration, with many citing EU migration in particular, the implication is that the government actively encouraged people to believe that the reason for EU migration was EU law, while it was more accurately the failure of those governments to apply the EU laws.

In short, that Brexit was born of government obfuscation and, it has to be said, lies, regarding its immigration obligations under EU legislation - let alone handing UKIP carte blanche justification for their bare-faced lie about Turkish migration. If government had come clean, we may simply have had an election to clear away the offending party, rather than a referendum with an outcome based on misinformation.

I like to think this (bib) has become common knowledge to all now Brian, irrespective of which way they voted. After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. The same tactics wouldn't have worked had they sold it on the fact non-EU net migration would increase above and beyond that of the same from EU.

People are aware of much more facts now as the fictional stuff has been shredded and debunked. The referendum vote came off the back of packs of lies, misinformation and impossible 'promises'. That's an intentional subversion of democracy.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 December 2018 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 5:07 PM.....................…………... After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. …………...

But Paul, Cummings was the director of Vote Leave, was not a minister or an MP so, in effect, he could lie his head off in support of his cause.

What really galls me about the Home Affairs Committee report, in conjunction with the two linked independent reports I referred to, is that it basically says successive governments have been wrongly blaming EU rules for increasing levels of EU migration to UK since 2007!

It is just not feasible that government didn't know that this was a fiction. It must have been pointed out to them that it was wrong. This covers Gordon Brown and David Cameron (twice, once Coalition, once Conservative) and Nick Clegg, and they all, including their administrations, buried the truth. Why? Easier to blame the EU for what was palpably unpopular, than to front up to it being a policy that both parties had adopted for economic reasons - which appears to be the truth?

So, how much else has been buried in like fashion? I can understand that "journals" such as the Daily Mail deliberately and selectively print untruths, but the British Government? Aren't we supposed to take what we are told by them as bearing at least a passing resemblance to truth?

If immigration from the EU (mainly from the old "Eastern Bloc" countries) is really what explained the referendum result, then the only reason we are now in this mess is government lies. When governments are caught lying, who does one believe? Who would one vote for? What happens to democracy?
userantony1969
Posted: 17 December 2018 6:20 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 5:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 3:50 PM

Any future arrangements will, of course, have to be negotiated. However, what struck me most forcibly was the information given in the linked Bruegel and EU Law Analysis items (linked at the foot of page 15 under refs 44 and 45).

I assume that both being linked in the committee report means they are considered reliable sources. Both seem to me to say, quite unequivocally, that governments had been making false claims as to the nature of our EU free movement obligations.

Since the referendum result was (and still is!) so widely blamed on migration, with many citing EU migration in particular, the implication is that the government actively encouraged people to believe that the reason for EU migration was EU law, while it was more accurately the failure of those governments to apply the EU laws.

In short, that Brexit was born of government obfuscation and, it has to be said, lies, regarding its immigration obligations under EU legislation - let alone handing UKIP carte blanche justification for their bare-faced lie about Turkish migration. If government had come clean, we may simply have had an election to clear away the offending party, rather than a referendum with an outcome based on misinformation.

I like to think this (bib) has become common knowledge to all now Brian, irrespective of which way they voted. After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. The same tactics wouldn't have worked had they sold it on the fact non-EU net migration would increase above and beyond that of the same from EU.

People are aware of much more facts now as the fictional stuff has been shredded and debunked. The referendum vote came off the back of packs of lies, misinformation and impossible 'promises'. That's an intentional subversion of democracy.


Last paragraph describes what happens every general or local election ... We've put up with that for years so what's new all of a sudden ... Oh yeah that's right you lost

Edited by antony1969 2018-12-17 6:21 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 December 2018 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 6:20 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 5:07 PM.....................…………... After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. …………...

But Paul, Cummings was the director of Vote Leave, was not a minister or an MP so, in effect, he could lie his head off in support of his cause.

What really galls me about the Home Affairs Committee report, in conjunction with the two linked independent reports I referred to, is that it basically says successive governments have been wrongly blaming EU rules for increasing levels of EU migration to UK since 2007!

It is just not feasible that government didn't know that this was a fiction. It must have been pointed out to them that it was wrong. This covers Gordon Brown and David Cameron (twice, once Coalition, once Conservative) and Nick Clegg, and they all, including their administrations, buried the truth. Why? Easier to blame the EU for what was palpably unpopular, than to front up to it being a policy that both parties had adopted for economic reasons - which appears to be the truth?

So, how much else has been buried in like fashion? I can understand that "journals" such as the Daily Mail deliberately and selectively print untruths, but the British Government? Aren't we supposed to take what we are told by them as bearing at least a passing resemblance to truth?

If immigration from the EU (mainly from the old "Eastern Bloc" countries) is really what explained the referendum result, then the only reason we are now in this mess is government lies. When governments are caught lying, who does one believe? Who would one vote for? What happens to democracy?

Yes i realise that but look at the politicians who bought into knowing those same myths were being peddled. Gove, Johnson, Farage et al.....all were more than happy to go along with using migration (as just one thing) to blame on the EU as that suited their narrative. If the UK ever does exit from EU.....exactly who are those so desperate for their Brexit at any cost going to blame their woes on then? They can't blame the EU and people from EU who were working here have already packed up and left. Why stay in a country which hates you? How the non-EU migrants now coming in will fare remains to be seen, but it's a good job they are coming because who else is going to do the work?

I remember reading on another forum pre-referendum, a thread started by some xenophobe about 'migrants are "stealing" our jobs'. "Our" jobs?? "Stealing"?? Seriously!! Well one poster soon had an answer to that......"migrants have been doing an excellent job of 'stealing' my nephews job as the bone idle lazy sod has never done a days work in his life since leaving school 15 years ago and has no intention of getting one either".

As i said previously i'd like to believe the lies, myths, misinformation etc have been exposed now for what they are and there are two solutions, revoke Art 50 and remain as is still legally possible (ECJ have ruled), or go to a Peoples vote.....neither of which of course will appeal to Brexiteers as they don't want the EU, even though May's 'deal' is effectively giving them that(!!), and they fear a Peoples vote as they know Brexit would be toast.
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 December 2018 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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antony1969 - 2018-12-17 6:20 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 5:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 3:50 PM

Any future arrangements will, of course, have to be negotiated. However, what struck me most forcibly was the information given in the linked Bruegel and EU Law Analysis items (linked at the foot of page 15 under refs 44 and 45).

I assume that both being linked in the committee report means they are considered reliable sources. Both seem to me to say, quite unequivocally, that governments had been making false claims as to the nature of our EU free movement obligations.

Since the referendum result was (and still is!) so widely blamed on migration, with many citing EU migration in particular, the implication is that the government actively encouraged people to believe that the reason for EU migration was EU law, while it was more accurately the failure of those governments to apply the EU laws.

In short, that Brexit was born of government obfuscation and, it has to be said, lies, regarding its immigration obligations under EU legislation - let alone handing UKIP carte blanche justification for their bare-faced lie about Turkish migration. If government had come clean, we may simply have had an election to clear away the offending party, rather than a referendum with an outcome based on misinformation.

I like to think this (bib) has become common knowledge to all now Brian, irrespective of which way they voted. After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. The same tactics wouldn't have worked had they sold it on the fact non-EU net migration would increase above and beyond that of the same from EU.

People are aware of much more facts now as the fictional stuff has been shredded and debunked. The referendum vote came off the back of packs of lies, misinformation and impossible 'promises'. That's an intentional subversion of democracy.


Last paragraph describes what happens every general or local election ... We've put up with that for years so what's new all of a sudden ... Oh yeah that's right you lost

Been explained many times before.....elections are once every five years and you can change a government, the referendum is a life time decision which would become irreversible unless the madness is revoked.
usersnowie
Posted: 17 December 2018 10:47 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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I would not be at all surprised if a majority of mps really are not aware of the possibilities that the report brings to light.
It would be shocking, but not at all a surprised.
Maybe we should email or mps asking them for an assurance that they are up to speed on this.
Snowie
userantony1969
Posted: 18 December 2018 6:20 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 8:45 PM

antony1969 - 2018-12-17 6:20 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-17 5:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 3:50 PM

Any future arrangements will, of course, have to be negotiated. However, what struck me most forcibly was the information given in the linked Bruegel and EU Law Analysis items (linked at the foot of page 15 under refs 44 and 45).

I assume that both being linked in the committee report means they are considered reliable sources. Both seem to me to say, quite unequivocally, that governments had been making false claims as to the nature of our EU free movement obligations.

Since the referendum result was (and still is!) so widely blamed on migration, with many citing EU migration in particular, the implication is that the government actively encouraged people to believe that the reason for EU migration was EU law, while it was more accurately the failure of those governments to apply the EU laws.

In short, that Brexit was born of government obfuscation and, it has to be said, lies, regarding its immigration obligations under EU legislation - let alone handing UKIP carte blanche justification for their bare-faced lie about Turkish migration. If government had come clean, we may simply have had an election to clear away the offending party, rather than a referendum with an outcome based on misinformation.

I like to think this (bib) has become common knowledge to all now Brian, irrespective of which way they voted. After all Dominic Cummings openly admitted immigration was a tactical ploy to persuade people to vote leave.....to 'stop' immigration, and folk took the bait! It was how it was presented. The same tactics wouldn't have worked had they sold it on the fact non-EU net migration would increase above and beyond that of the same from EU.

People are aware of much more facts now as the fictional stuff has been shredded and debunked. The referendum vote came off the back of packs of lies, misinformation and impossible 'promises'. That's an intentional subversion of democracy.


Last paragraph describes what happens every general or local election ... We've put up with that for years so what's new all of a sudden ... Oh yeah that's right you lost

Been explained many times before.....elections are once every five years and you can change a government, the referendum is a life time decision which would become irreversible unless the madness is revoked.


Referendums as explained on here previously by Brian I believe could be whenever the mood of the country changes ... We of course had to wait 40 years for our chance to halt the madness and lies from the first one
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 8:31 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM

Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

This link https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhaff/857/857.pdf leads to the July 2018 Interim Report to parliament by the Home Affairs Select Committee. Download a copy and read it - especially Chapter 3: Existing applicable controls, commencing on page 15.

It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel, which quotes dates and figures, and sets out in more detail how the existing regulations could have been used, quite legally, to reduce the numbers entering (or, if judged preferable, control how many were admitted over what period/s of time).

At the every least, this should make you a little cautious about who it was, in fact, who made these levels of immigration possible, and who it was who actually had the power to reduce the numbers. Interesting reading!

Remember that these are the direct findings of a cross-party UK Parliamentary Select Committee (so not media "edited"), into the background to past immigration from the EU, and to propose better ways to manage this in future.

It will become clear from the timescales that this is not a party-political issue (as should become evident from the membership of the committee), as both main parties were in government over the period concerned.

I find it strange that this report has not gained greater publicity, and wonder why that might be?


Oi Kirby! ..........

This is cheating ............

















You started your 100 day Remoaner Propaganda Blitzkrieg 2 days early ............

userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 8:35 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM


It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel,


Bruegel is the European think tank that specialises in economics. ..........

So no EU bias there eh Brian? ..........

BTW seeing as they specialise in "Economics".........why are they giving input to our government about our immigration policies? ..........



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-18 8:38 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM

Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.


So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/

"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."

Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-18 8:46 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 December 2018 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 December 2018 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:35 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel,

Bruegel is the European think tank that specialises in economics. ..........
So no EU bias there eh Brian? ..........
BTW seeing as they specialise in "Economics".........why are they giving input to our government about our immigration policies? ..........

If you would read, instead of pointlessly blathering, you would know why.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 December 2018 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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antony1969 - 2018-12-17 6:20 PM...………….
Last paragraph describes what happens every general or local election ... We've put up with that for years so what's new all of a sudden ………….

What's new?

1 This was not a general election, it was a cross-party Parliamentary Select Committee enquiry into ways to manage EU migration.

2 Its findings do not relate to general elections, but to government statements made since 2007 justifying the large numbers of EU migrants that had been allowed to enter the UK, in which they repeatedly claimed EU legislation required them to do so.

3 Those claims were, and are false. They could, legally, have reduced the numbers by about 80%, had they chosen to do so.

Your governments have been lying to you - and you think that is OK, on the basis that they lie to you anyway? That is truly (to use one of your favourite words) shocking!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 3:18 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.


Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............

Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........

The UK has become the New Australia ......

userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 3:23 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:35 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel,

Bruegel is the European think tank that specialises in economics. ..........
So no EU bias there eh Brian? ..........
BTW seeing as they specialise in "Economics".........why are they giving input to our government about our immigration policies? ..........

If you would read, instead of pointlessly blathering, you would know why.


I read it .........

The usual EU spin .........

I prefer reality to spin ...........






userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 3:33 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM

Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

This link https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmhaff/857/857.pdf leads to the July 2018 Interim Report to parliament by the Home Affairs Select Committee. Download a copy and read it - especially Chapter 3: Existing applicable controls, commencing on page 15.


I wonder how many said they intend to rob, rape and murder? ..........



userBulletguy
Posted: 18 December 2018 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:35 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel,

Bruegel is the European think tank that specialises in economics. ..........
So no EU bias there eh Brian? ..........
BTW seeing as they specialise in "Economics".........why are they giving input to our government about our immigration policies? ..........

If you would read, instead of pointlessly blathering, you would know why.

He only reads a headline.....if he likes it, that's good enough for him.

His comprehension is limited to tweet like comments.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 December 2018 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Bulletguy - 2018-12-18 4:04 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:50 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:35 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
It would also be instructive to follow the link at the foot of that page to the blogpost by Bruegel,

Bruegel is the European think tank that specialises in economics. ..........
So no EU bias there eh Brian? ..........
BTW seeing as they specialise in "Economics".........why are they giving input to our government about our immigration policies? ..........

If you would read, instead of pointlessly blathering, you would know why.

He only reads a headline.....if he likes it, that's good enough for him.

His comprehension is limited to tweet like comments.


Here's another ........

Is the EU/ECJ not preventing the UK from deporting their criminals? ............

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 December 2018 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 December 2018 4:24 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 11:07 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?


I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair.... who opened the fecking door as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

He stitched the UK up like a kipper ........







Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-19 4:29 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 December 2018 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 11:07 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?


I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair who opened the fecking door and as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

He stitched the UK up like a kipper ........

Instead of waffling more blame shifting garbage why don't you READ the post and link Brian opened the thread with? At least then you might be able to engage debate with some form of credible response. You really are your own worst enemy.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 December 2018 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2018-12-19 4:32 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 11:07 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?


I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair who opened the fecking door and as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

He stitched the UK up like a kipper ........

Instead of waffling more blame shifting garbage why don't you READ the post and link Brian opened the thread with? At least then you might be able to engage debate with some form of credible response. You really are your own worst enemy.


Why would I want to read Remoaner propaganda? ..........

Brian shot his bolt more than 12 months ago ........

He's proved to be just as partisan as me or you ........

The only bloke on here still sat on the fence is MalcD ........

The only curious thing is? ........

If you do manage to get a "peoples vote".......how are you going to change our minds? ........

Just askin .......



Edited by pelmetman 2018-12-19 4:52 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 December 2018 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:48 PM

Why would I want to read Remoaner propaganda? ..........

That ^^^ just shows you haven't read one word of it. As i said you really are your own worst enemy.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 December 2018 5:08 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2018-12-19 5:00 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:48 PM

Why would I want to read Remoaner propaganda? ..........

That ^^^ just shows you haven't read one word of it. As i said you really are your own worst enemy.


Nope...... just say's I can smell bullitsh*t ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 December 2018 6:48 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM..................…..I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair.... who opened the fecking door as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

Yes, I know that Dave (I'm no fan of Blair), but he was knowingly followed by Brown, Cameron/Clegg, Cameron, then May, and not one of them sought to use the provisions in the EU regulations.

I don't know why they all failed to use those provisions, but I suspect it is/was because they all (and their respective cabinets) took the view that the immigration would contribute positively to the economy. I also suspect they chose to blame the influx on the EU freedom of movement Regs because they realised too many came too quickly, so the policy was politically unpopular (though economically beneficial), and they wanted a scapegoat. It might even explain in part why the UK has the World's 5th/5th largest (depending whose figures you use) economy!

Whatever, it was not because the EU compelled the UK to accept them all, nor was it because EU regulations prevented the UK from limiting the numbers entering. We know that, because all the other EU member states at the time the Visegrad 4 (plus later Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia) joined, legally introduced immigration controls within the Regs. Only UK, and possibly Ireland, left the door wide open.

So, no good blaming the EU for that - even though May's lot are still trying to do so!
userBarryd999
Posted: 19 December 2018 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Lord of the posts

Posts: 5597
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Location: North Yorkshire Dales - Kontiki 640 Hank the Tank


pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:48 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-19 4:32 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 11:07 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?


I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair who opened the fecking door and as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

He stitched the UK up like a kipper ........

Instead of waffling more blame shifting garbage why don't you READ the post and link Brian opened the thread with? At least then you might be able to engage debate with some form of credible response. You really are your own worst enemy.


Why would I want to read Remoaner propaganda? ..........

Brian shot his bolt more than 12 months ago ........

He's proved to be just as partisan as me or you ........

The only bloke on here still sat on the fence is MalcD ........

The only curious thing is? ........

If you do manage to get a "peoples vote".......how are you going to change our minds? ........


Just askin .......



We wont have to. By January if nobody has changed their minds on Brexit at all there will be no majority for it anymore. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/final-say-remain-leave-second-referendum-brexit-no-deal-crossover-day-a8541576.html and thats been generous with the figures I think.

People have changed their minds though if you believe all the polls and surveys. Nothing will change your mind though Dave, I realise that. Not even if you were told you would have to live out your life on a crappy campsite surrounded by funny foreigners in some Costa's resort to get Brexit would you change your mind. Oh hang on....
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 December 2018 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Barryd999 - 2018-12-19 6:57 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:48 PM

Bulletguy - 2018-12-19 4:32 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM

Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 11:07 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-18 3:18 PM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-18 9:49 AM
pelmetman - 2018-12-18 8:43 AM
Brian Kirby - 2018-12-17 11:00 AM
Much is made of the supposed fact that immigration was a significant driver of Brexit. The government's defence for admitting so many migrants has long been that they were compelled to do so under the EU's "free movement of people" regulations. I have long said that this is not so.

So why did the EU stop us from deporting this lot? ...........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/06/eu-rules-stopped-britain-deporting-murders-rapists-and-violent-c/
"Mr Raab has compiled a dossier of the 50 most serious offenders who have been allowed to remain in the UK because of Brussels red tape. As justice minister, Mr Raab has had first-hand experience of many of the cases the UK has seen thwarted."
Is Mr Raab is deliberately misleading us with his first hand experience? ..............

Suggest you look up immigration and deportation. You will find they are two totally different things. An absence of one does not indicate an absence of the other. Your posts are becoming increasingly incoherent.

Just pointing out that with the EU you can only have a one way street .............
Once we have their scumbags.......we have to keep them .........
The UK has become the New Australia ......

I suppose it is a waste of time pointing out to you that the only reason we have them, is because HMG let them in when it had no obligation to do so?


I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair who opened the fecking door and as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

He stitched the UK up like a kipper ........

Instead of waffling more blame shifting garbage why don't you READ the post and link Brian opened the thread with? At least then you might be able to engage debate with some form of credible response. You really are your own worst enemy.


Why would I want to read Remoaner propaganda? ..........

Brian shot his bolt more than 12 months ago ........

He's proved to be just as partisan as me or you ........

The only bloke on here still sat on the fence is MalcD ........

The only curious thing is? ........

If you do manage to get a "peoples vote".......how are you going to change our minds? ........


Just askin .......



We wont have to. By January if nobody has changed their minds on Brexit at all there will be no majority for it anymore. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/final-say-remain-leave-second-referendum-brexit-no-deal-crossover-day-a8541576.html and thats been generous with the figures I think.

People have changed their minds though if you believe all the polls and surveys. Nothing will change your mind though Dave, I realise that. Not even if you were told you would have to live out your life on a crappy campsite surrounded by funny foreigners in some Costa's resort to get Brexit would you change your mind. Oh hang on....


I get the feeling you are believing your own hype ........

Only another 100 days to discover who's hype is right ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 19 December 2018 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2018-12-19 6:48 PM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 4:24 PM..................…..I suppose it's a waste of time pointing out to you that it was Blair.... who opened the fecking door as the duplicitous lawyer he is .......

Yes, I know that Dave (I'm no fan of Blair), but he was knowingly followed by Brown, Cameron/Clegg, Cameron, then May, and not one of them sought to use the provisions in the EU regulations.

I don't know why they all failed to use those provisions, but I suspect it is/was because they all (and their respective cabinets) took the view that the immigration would contribute positively to the economy. I also suspect they chose to blame the influx on the EU freedom of movement Regs because they realised too many came too quickly, so the policy was politically unpopular (though economically beneficial), and they wanted a scapegoat. It might even explain in part why the UK has the World's 5th/5th largest (depending whose figures you use) economy!

Whatever, it was not because the EU compelled the UK to accept them all, nor was it because EU regulations prevented the UK from limiting the numbers entering. We know that, because all the other EU member states at the time the Visegrad 4 (plus later Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia) joined, legally introduced immigration controls within the Regs. Only UK, and possibly Ireland, left the door wide open.

So, no good blaming the EU for that - even though May's lot are still trying to do so!


Rubbish Brian ........

Once Blair opened the flood gates he gave future PM's a poisoned chalice .......

Maybe May will succeed in sucking the poison out of the chalice she sort........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 December 2018 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2018-12-19 8:57 PM..........................Rubbish Brian ........
Once Blair opened the flood gates he gave future PM's a poisoned chalice .......
Maybe May will succeed in sucking the poison out of the chalice she sort........

Facts, Dave, facts. None of those succeeding PMs were obliged to stick with Blairs disastrous decision, and three of them could have gained considerable political advantage from imposing restrictions, on the ground of Blair's decision being so unpopular. Yet they didn't.

The facts speak for themselves - apparently to everyone except you. They all wanted the immigration to continue - for economic reasons - while hand wringing and protesting otherwise for political reasons.
userBulletguy
Posted: 20 December 2018 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Have we been deliberately misled?
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Brian Kirby - 2018-12-20 10:29 AM

pelmetman - 2018-12-19 8:57 PM..........................Rubbish Brian ........
Once Blair opened the flood gates he gave future PM's a poisoned chalice .......
Maybe May will succeed in sucking the poison out of the chalice she sort........

Facts, Dave, facts. None of those succeeding PMs were obliged to stick with Blairs disastrous decision, and three of them could have gained considerable political advantage from imposing restrictions, on the ground of Blair's decision being so unpopular. Yet they didn't.

Since Blair there's been Brown (3 years), Cameron (6 years),, and May the past two and a half years. Can't think why he never mentioned those particularly the last two......oh wait a minute!

The facts speak for themselves - apparently to everyone except you. They all wanted the immigration to continue - for economic reasons - while hand wringing and protesting otherwise for political reasons.

And still do.