Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
userArchiesgrandad
Posted: 7 February 2019 12:31 PM
Subject: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Is there room for a more considered post about the comments Tusk made, without all the bullsh*t and yahoo of the other posting?

I am sure that I'm not the only one who is appalled by Tusks outburst. As has been stated elsewhere, the Uk has been one of only two countries that pay in the money that runs the EU, and enables the Tusks and Barniers of the EU to enjoy their fabulous salaries and other perks, and pays the subsidies that have enabled the Macrons and other leaders in the EU to continue to enjoy their time in the limelight.

I will also point out that in a few months time we will be remembering the Normandy landings, in which 160,000 allied troops gave their all to bring to an end to the occupation of almost all of the continent of Europe from a cruel and oppresive dictator. Of those 160,000 men, 83,000 were American and 73,000 were troops of the British Empire, the remaining 4,000 were from the other allied nations, including 170 soldiers of the Free French Army led by De Gaule. ( De Gaule was not amongst them because he was considered so treacherous by his peers that they did not even tell him of the plan.)

I think that time will eventually enable us to see what the actual outcome of the present situation is, and I have more to lose than most of you, but I think that the outburst from Tusk should not go unremarked, and the EU should take such action as is required to help Tusk understand his mistake in saying such things, and if my sentiments are echoed across the EU, then it will become a better place.

AGD
usermalc d
Posted: 7 February 2019 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.

He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.

I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.



Edited by malc d 2019-02-07 12:42 PM
userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 12:55 PM
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As I have said elsewhere what he actually said was there was a special place in hell for politicians who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan. It just exposes the genius of Donald Tusk. To be offended by his tweet / speech, you have to admit to not having a plan for delivering Brexit, despite promoting it to the British people with lots of empty promises. You can't be offended without proving yourself ignorant at best, fraudulent at worst.

Are you aware that you pay more to Northern Ireland as a subsidy than we paid into the EU on an annual basis?

My father took part in the Normandy landings and was subsequently BAOR until 1947 what he witnessed over that time damaged him for the rest of his life. As you are keen to introduce the war i suggest that you take note that it was Churchill who proposed a United States of Europe in 1946.
user747
Posted: 7 February 2019 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 12:55 PM

As I have said elsewhere what he actually said was there was a special place in hell for politicians who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan. It just exposes the genius of Donald Tusk. To be offended by his tweet / speech, you have to admit to not having a plan for delivering Brexit, despite promoting it to the British people with lots of empty promises. You can't be offended without proving yourself ignorant at best, fraudulent at worst.

Are you aware that you pay more to Northern Ireland as a subsidy than we paid into the EU on an annual basis?

My father took part in the Normandy landings and was subsequently BAOR until 1947 what he witnessed over that time damaged him for the rest of his life. As you are keen to introduce the war i suggest that you take note that it was Churchill who proposed a United States of Europe in 1946.


Regarding Churchill. He did say that but did not include the UK in a United States of Europe.
userBulletguy
Posted: 7 February 2019 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Archiesgrandad - 2019-02-07 12:31 PM

Is there room for a more considered post about the comments Tusk made, without all the bullsh*t and yahoo of the other posting?

I am sure that I'm not the only one who is appalled by Tusks outburst.

Why? He stated a clear fact many of us have known about for the past two and half years, including i suspect, some Brexiters albeit grudgingly.

"By the way, i've been wondering what that special place in Hell looks like for those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan to carry it safely"

In other words he was aiming it at Gove, Johnson, Farage etc who championed the Brexit cause "without even a sketch of a plan to carry it safely".....and that is correct isn't it? None had a plan. Having lit the bonfire they all ran off.
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 February 2019 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM

Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.

He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.

I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.



The plan was to leave ...........

All the other stuff is just bullsh*t from Remoaners and a disgruntled EU determined to make a example of anyone who dares to leave their empire ..........

We've certainly discovered how friendly our neigbours really are .........

userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 3:29 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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It's also worth noting that we didn’t see this outcry when:
Priti Patel said we should starve the Irish, again.
BoJo said that the EU were trying to create a superstate like Hitler had.
Hunt said Eastern European countries had joined the EUSSR
Daniel Kawczynski incorrectly claimed Britain received no money from the Marshall plan
Mark Francois utilised his father’s second world war experiences to criticise the German CEO of Airbus,
David Davis said that if “our civil service can cope with world war II it can easily cope with this”
JRM invoked every european war from Crecy through Agincourt and Trafalgar onwards


Respect is a two way street.....
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 February 2019 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 3:29 PM

Respect is a two way street.....



True ..........

Remoaners lost theirs on the 24th June 2016 when they all spat their dummies out ......

userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM

The plan was to leave ...........



And how did you intend to do that, just walkaway?
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 February 2019 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 3:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM

The plan was to leave ...........



And how did you intend to do that, just walkaway?


If they don't want a sensible deal then yes ..........

What are they gonna do?.......Invade? .........



userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 4:30 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:15 PM

If they don't want a sensible deal then yes ..........

What are they gonna do?.......Invade? .........


So we walkaway without a deal and leave the without paying our dues and smash a international peace treaty?
userBulletguy
Posted: 7 February 2019 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM

malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM

Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.

He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.

I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.



The plan was to leave ...........

For where....what destination plan was in place? There wasn't one was there? (I do like your use of past tense though which shows hesitation and doubt!).


We've certainly discovered how friendly our neigbours really are .........

I take it you'll live up to that statement by binning your passport and refusing to set foot outside the UK ever again?

Nope......thought you wouldn't.
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 February 2019 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-07 4:43 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM

malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM

Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.

He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.

I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.



The plan was to leave ...........

For where....what destination plan was in place? There wasn't one was there? (I do like your use of past tense though which shows hesitation and doubt!).



Nope........It just shows how tense and nervous you Remoaners are about what's going to happen in 50 days time ..........

Perhaps a double Tenna man might be advisable on the 29th .......

https://www.promofarma.com/tena-pants-maxi-t-grande-
userpelmetman
Posted: 7 February 2019 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 4:30 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:15 PM

If they don't want a sensible deal then yes ..........

What are they gonna do?.......Invade? .........


So we walkaway without a deal and leave the without paying our dues and smash a international peace treaty?


Who's smashing a peace treaty?......Mrs May has already said the UK wont be installing a hard border, so it'll be the EU and the Irish doing the smashing if they install a hard border ........

As for paying our dues........We've been overpaying them for 4 decades ........

userMuswell
Posted: 7 February 2019 5:02 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Archiesgrandad - 2019-02-07 12:31 PM



I will also point out that in a few months time we will be remembering the Normandy landings, in which 160,000 allied troops gave their all to bring to an end to the occupation of almost all of the continent of Europe from a cruel and oppresive dictator. Of those 160,000 men, 83,000 were American and 73,000 were troops of the British Empire, the remaining 4,000 were from the other allied nations, including 170 soldiers of the Free French Army led by De Gaule. ( De Gaule was not amongst them because he was considered so treacherous by his peers that they did not even tell him of the plan.)



AGD


The Russians also did their little bit in WW2 .

"During the German–Soviet War, the Red Army drafted a staggering 29,574,900 in addition to the 4,826,907 in service at the beginning of the war."
userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 5:02 PM
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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:52 PM
Who's smashing a peace treaty?......Mrs May has already said the UK wont be installing a hard border, so it'll be the EU and the Irish doing the smashing if they install a hard border ........

As for paying our dues........We've been overpaying them for 4 decades ........



So you're not going to install a hard border under your plan, so what happened to taking back control?

Overpaying yeah .....the damage to the UK economy caused by the vote to leave the European Union already exceeds the size of the budget contributions Britain will be able to claim back when it finally leaves the block.
userBulletguy
Posted: 7 February 2019 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-07 4:43 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM

malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM

Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.

He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.

I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.



The plan was to leave ...........

For where....what destination plan was in place? There wasn't one was there? (I do like your use of past tense though which shows hesitation and doubt!).



Nope........It just shows how tense and nervous you Remoaners are about what's going to happen in 50 days time ..........

Perhaps a double Tenna man might be advisable on the 29th .......

You've avoided the question. What destination plan was in place? Will you please link to some credible fact on that as i'd like to see evidence. Continually evading the question suggests you can't, and we know you can't because there wasn't anything was there?

ps; I gather you've had a quick change of mind and decided not to bin your passport as you love an EU country that much you spend half the year out of the UK!!
userArchiesgrandad
Posted: 7 February 2019 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Try to play nicely lads, you can kick 7 bells out of one another on a different post, let's be grown up on this one.

We did have a very clear, well defined plan when Cameron went to Brussels to explain that were were not happy with their plans. We planned to have serious discussions with our friends in order to help them find a new way of retaining their Union, changing democratic accountability, revising the ruinous CAP, restoring fairness in the fisheries policy, and lots more. As the UK was not actually allowed to be a fully participating member in the Common Market, we wanted to agree some trade deals that could restore equality.

We had not expected that response would be to throw all their toys out of the pram and refuse to even talk about it. Be fair, it still seems to be remarkable that when faced with the reality that the fifth richest country in the world, one of the major importers of EU products, and the only other net contributor to EU funds, says that things need to change or they are leaving, that there was no meaningful discussion about what might be possible.

We recall that at the time of the Normandy Landings Russia was too busy invading Eastern Europe with a view to creating their own undemocratic empire to be involved, but unlike De Gaule we did tell them.

I suppose my real problem is that notwithstanding all that has transpired over the past 100 years or so, we are not seen as worthwhile friends of at least some of the EU countries whom we tried to help at such considerable cost over the years, and they all appear to be so far in hock to Germany that they are not even able to speak up publicly in support of us.

AGD
userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 6:05 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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EU: What do you want?
May: Brexit means Brexit
EU: Made your mind up yet?
May: Backstop
EU: Ok
May: No backstop
EU: Eh?
May: Backstop, yeah but no but yeah.
EU: You ok hun?
May: National interest
EU: WHAT DO YOU WANT?!
May: I don't know. You tell me.
EU: FFS.
May: I blame you.
userantony1969
Posted: 7 February 2019 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 6:05 PM

EU: What do you want?
May: Brexit means Brexit
EU: Made your mind up yet?
May: Backstop
EU: Ok
May: No backstop
EU: Eh?
May: Backstop, yeah but no but yeah.
EU: You ok hun?
May: National interest
EU: WHAT DO YOU WANT?!
May: I don't know. You tell me.
EU: FFS.
May: I blame you.


I don't know wether to laugh or cry at that ... is that an actual EU/May discussion or just another Hollywood script youve dreamt up
userFast Pat
Posted: 7 February 2019 6:11 PM
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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:49 PM
Nope........It just shows how tense and nervous you Remoaners are about what's going to happen in 50 days time ..........

Perhaps a double Tenna man might be advisable on the 29th .......

https://www.promofarma.com/tena-pants-maxi-t-grande-


You are going to love this one - Donald Tusk Told Theresa May That Jeremy Corbyn's Plan Could Be "A Promising Way" Out Of The Brexit Impasse. https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/tusk-brexit-corbyn

So a soft brexit, us still paying in and following, but not contributing to the formulation of, EU rules.
userMuswell
Posted: 7 February 2019 6:11 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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From day 1 the problem was how you avoid a hard border in Ireland without a hard border in the Irish sea. Nobody has come up with a plan for that since 2016, which is why they are frightened of the backstop,,,because they know that they never will.
userBulletguy
Posted: 7 February 2019 7:01 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Muswell - 2019-02-07 6:11 PM

From day 1 the problem was how you avoid a hard border in Ireland without a hard border in the Irish sea. Nobody has come up with a plan for that since 2016, which is why they are frightened of the backstop,,,because they know that they never will.

Trump is building a wall in Ireland.......to protect against what he called a Chinese hoax.....climate change!!

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2017-12-22/trump-resort-in-ireland-will-build-seawalls-to-protect-against-climate-change
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 February 2019 10:37 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Regarding the OP and Tusks comments about the Brexit Orchestrators, does anyone find it a bit amusing that after two and a half years of the rufty tufty Brexiteers calling us remainers everything from wets to loony lefty tree huggers that now they are all suddenly offended and all hurt but an EU politicians comments. Snowflakes!
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 February 2019 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Muswell - 2019-02-07 6:11 PM

From day 1 the problem was how you avoid a hard border in Ireland without a hard border in the Irish sea. Nobody has come up with a plan for that since 2016, which is why they are frightened of the backstop,,,because they know that they never will.


But the Tories want to renage anyway when the time comes.......fortunately the EU can see just what a loads of liars the Brits are......long live the backstop
userMuswell
Posted: 8 February 2019 4:08 PM
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Quite so. Take back control and stuff the Irish.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 February 2019 6:57 PM
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Archiesgrandad - 2019-02-07 12:31 PM

Is there room for a more considered post about the comments Tusk made, without all the bullsh*t and yahoo of the other posting?

I am sure that I'm not the only one who is appalled by Tusks outburst. As has been stated elsewhere, the Uk has been one of only two countries that pay in the money that runs the EU, and enables the Tusks and Barniers of the EU to enjoy their fabulous salaries and other perks, and pays the subsidies that have enabled the Macrons and other leaders in the EU to continue to enjoy their time in the limelight.............................AGD

It would lend more weight to your arguments, AGD, if you got the basics right!

If you follow this link http://tinyurl.com/yb89og3q scroll down to the table that sets out the contributions 2007 - 1013, go to the column titled "Average net contributions" and then click on the "down" button to "sort ascending", you will see who are the actual net contributors. You will also then see that France contributes more than the UK, and that Germany, France, UK, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Belgium, Denmark, Austria, Finland and Luxemburg, all contribute more than they receive. Try starting again from there.

It might also help if you took account of the fact that the primary reason for the existence of the EU was to prevent a repetition the successive wars that had previously destroyed so much of Europe. So I'm sorry, but muttering about what happened 80 years ago, under a radically different world order, is hardly relevant to where we now are. It is where we have come from, and it is why the EU exists - because some far sighted people had the wisdom to learn from that history, not to repeat it.

At to Tusk's comment, it was highly undiplomatic - though I thought it very funny - because it was the simple, unadorned, truth (though I can't comment on the "hell" bit!). We have a government that, after two years of failure, has only succeeding in establishing itself as incapable of organising a convivial gathering in a Brewery. The only people in a lather about his comment are those who know he's right, but have invested their trust in the party that presently forms the UK government. Reality check time, I think.
user747
Posted: 8 February 2019 7:45 PM
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So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?

If NATO had known that they could have saved a fortune in Arms expenditure, especially the Americans who must have spent billions of Dollars on Nuclear weapons. Even better, they could have disbanded NATO and sent their troops home.
userRealist
Posted: 9 February 2019 6:24 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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I have followed Brexit for over 3 years on this sight and others. The verbal diarrhoea coming from remainers is astounding. Could any of them give3/4 reasons to stay in the EU. Please do not bring up the facile argument about staying longer than 90 days in Europe.Most people don't care about that.
Thanks
Realist
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 9 February 2019 8:19 AM
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Realist - 2019-02-09 6:24 AM

I have followed Brexit for over 3 years on this sight and others. The verbal diarrhoea coming from remainers is astounding. Could any of them give3/4 reasons to stay in the EU. Please do not bring up the facile argument about staying longer than 90 days in Europe.Most people don't care about that.
Thanks
Realist


1. An excellent economy and standard of living enjoyed for the last 30 years.
2. Peace in Ireland
3. Shared excellence in scientific research and development
4. Freedom of movement
5. Pet Passports
6. Shared security arrangments to forestall/prevent terrorism
7. Free health care all over the EU

That is just for starters.

Oh and by the way some people do care about the 90 day rule especially those who have properties in the EU.... only a totally self centred Brexiter wouldn't give a dam....the 'I'm alright Jack' sort of person.

YOU CANNOT NAME ONE TRUE HONEST ADVANTAGE FOR LEAVING THE EU BECAUSE THERE ARE NONE.

THE BEST YOU CAN DO IS TO PARROT THE USUAL LIES OF THE RIGHT WING PRESS AND THE DREGS OF HUMANITY SUCH AS REES-LOG OR BORIS BULL

Edited by HarveyHeaven 2019-02-09 8:23 AM
usermalc d
Posted: 9 February 2019 9:02 AM
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747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?




In the first half of the twentieth century ( and before ) there were regular wars between the countries of Europe.

One of the ideas behind the EU was to all get together in a union to end such wars.

So - yes - they have kept us safe - from each other !

As there have been no wars between the members of the EU since then - I would say that it has been very successful in that respect.

Unfortunately it has been badly run - and the concerns of huge parts of the populations have been ignored - so we have ended up with populism and Brexit.

My view was that staying in was the lesser of two evils as I still don't see any day to day benefits of leaving. ( …. and it seems no Brexiteers on this forum can either ).



Edited by malc d 2019-02-09 9:03 AM
userBarryd999
Posted: 9 February 2019 10:19 AM
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Not only the above but our own heads of security and the Police have told us that Brexit will make us less safe as a nation because of the loss of shared security tools and databases. Now add to that the latest approach to avoiding chaos at Dover by the Tories where they are now saying we will just let everything through without checking it. Doesnt sound like taking back control of our borders to me. Im sure Brexiteers had visions of highly trained security with attack dogs and barbed wire fences around our ports but instead it will just be an open gate by the sound of it.

Edited by Barryd999 2019-02-09 10:21 AM
user747
Posted: 9 February 2019 12:47 PM
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malc d - 2019-02-09 9:02 AM

747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?




In the first half of the twentieth century ( and before ) there were regular wars between the countries of Europe.

One of the ideas behind the EU was to all get together in a union to end such wars.

So - yes - they have kept us safe - from each other !

As there have been no wars between the members of the EU since then - I would say that it has been very successful in that respect.

Unfortunately it has been badly run - and the concerns of huge parts of the populations have been ignored - so we have ended up with populism and Brexit.

My view was that staying in was the lesser of two evils as I still don't see any day to day benefits of leaving. ( …. and it seems no Brexiteers on this forum can either ).




Sorry but I have to disagree.

Europe was peaceful apart from the desire of ONE European Nation wanting to dominate the rest of Europe (and beyond). Germany went to war twice and failed to be dominant in Europe ...... ooh, wait a minute.
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 1:22 PM
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Fast Pat - 2019-02-07 6:11 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 4:49 PM
Nope........It just shows how tense and nervous you Remoaners are about what's going to happen in 50 days time ..........

Perhaps a double Tenna man might be advisable on the 29th .......

https://www.promofarma.com/tena-pants-maxi-t-grande-


You are going to love this one - Donald Tusk Told Theresa May That Jeremy Corbyn's Plan Could Be "A Promising Way" Out Of The Brexit Impasse. https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/tusk-brexit-corbyn

So a soft brexit, us still paying in and following, but not contributing to the formulation of, EU rules.


You're assuming its a done deal .............

userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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malc d - 2019-02-09 9:02 AM

747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?




In the first half of the twentieth century ( and before ) there were regular wars between the countries of Europe.

One of the ideas behind the EU was to all get together in a union to end such wars.

So - yes - they have kept us safe - from each other !

As there have been no wars between the members of the EU since then - I would say that it has been very successful in that respect.

Unfortunately it has been badly run - and the concerns of huge parts of the populations have been ignored - so we have ended up with populism and Brexit.

My view was that staying in was the lesser of two evils as I still don't see any day to day benefits of leaving. ( …. and it seems no Brexiteers on this forum can either ).



You forgot the bit where the EU appears to be trying to provoke a war with Putin .........

usermalc d
Posted: 9 February 2019 2:00 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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747 - 2019-02-09 12:47 PM

malc d - 2019-02-09 9:02 AM

747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?




In the first half of the twentieth century ( and before ) there were regular wars between the countries of Europe.

One of the ideas behind the EU was to all get together in a union to end such wars.

So - yes - they have kept us safe - from each other !

As there have been no wars between the members of the EU since then - I would say that it has been very successful in that respect.

Unfortunately it has been badly run - and the concerns of huge parts of the populations have been ignored - so we have ended up with populism and Brexit.

My view was that staying in was the lesser of two evils as I still don't see any day to day benefits of leaving. ( …. and it seems no Brexiteers on this forum can either ).




Sorry but I have to disagree.

Europe was peaceful apart from the desire of ONE European Nation wanting to dominate the rest of Europe (and beyond). Germany went to war twice and failed to be dominant in Europe ...... ooh, wait a minute.




I only made two points :

1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.

2) The EU has been badly run by politicians.


You say you disagree.

Are you disagreeing with both points - or just one.

( p.s. If you really think that Europe was " peaceful " I would suggest you could Google " List of Conflicts in Europe " and read the 20th century section ).

userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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malc d - 2019-02-09 2:00 PM


1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.



Dunno how long that claim will last once they let the Balkans in ........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/21/europe-crisis-balkans-eu-membership-russia-china-turkey

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 February 2019 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?

If NATO had known that they could have saved a fortune in Arms expenditure, especially the Americans who must have spent billions of Dollars on Nuclear weapons. Even better, they could have disbanded NATO and sent their troops home.

Recognising what other posters have said above, no, and I did not claim it had. However, I think you have misunderstood the difference between NATO and the EU. For NATO see here: http://tinyurl.com/nlmqzvv It has a long and evolving history, and was initially born out of WW2, just as was the EEC/EU. There the similarities end.

NATO is a defensive organisation in which all members pledge mutual support to others should any be attacked by external forces. Before NATO is engaged, there has to have been an external aggressor. It is a defensive war fighting alliance, through which the member states pledge their own forces into a common force. If you follow its changes as it has evolved, and the evolution of its control and command structures, what you will see is something that is as complex as the EU.

The EEC emerged out of WW2 as an organisation with the primary objective of fostering the economic (not military) integration of the its member states, in order to encourage, through close contact and continual dialogue, peaceful co-existence between them. Its purpose was to end the destructive wars that had historically ravaged almost all of Europe over the centuries.

The one is intended to prevent wars in Europe, the other intended to provide a protective defence for Europe while it rebuilt its industries and economies after two catastrophic wars, and latterly for other countries elsewhere - should they be attacked. Its purpose is as a deterrent, initially against Russia, but now against a wider range of potential aggressors, and to defend if the deterrent fails.

So, prevention on the one hand, and deterrence and defence on the other. To me, both seem highly desirable.

It is notable that with the existence of the EEC/EU no member states have taken up arms against each other, even though several had been at war before becoming members. That being the case, it must surely be accepted that, despite several acrimonious fallings out among its members, peace has prevailed and its aim been realised.

You seem to be advocating cure in preference to prevention as a strategy. I think you are mistaken, and that prevention is much the wiser initial strategy, but that it needs recourse to cure if it fails. That, with NATO and the EU, is what we presently have, and IMO, is what we would be wisest to keep.
user747
Posted: 9 February 2019 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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malc d - 2019-02-09 2:00 PM

747 - 2019-02-09 12:47 PM

malc d - 2019-02-09 9:02 AM

747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?




In the first half of the twentieth century ( and before ) there were regular wars between the countries of Europe.

One of the ideas behind the EU was to all get together in a union to end such wars.

So - yes - they have kept us safe - from each other !

As there have been no wars between the members of the EU since then - I would say that it has been very successful in that respect.

Unfortunately it has been badly run - and the concerns of huge parts of the populations have been ignored - so we have ended up with populism and Brexit.

My view was that staying in was the lesser of two evils as I still don't see any day to day benefits of leaving. ( …. and it seems no Brexiteers on this forum can either ).




Sorry but I have to disagree.

Europe was peaceful apart from the desire of ONE European Nation wanting to dominate the rest of Europe (and beyond). Germany went to war twice and failed to be dominant in Europe ...... ooh, wait a minute.




I only made two points :

1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.

2) The EU has been badly run by politicians.


You say you disagree.

Are you disagreeing with both points - or just one.

( p.s. If you really think that Europe was " peaceful " I would suggest you could Google " List of Conflicts in Europe " and read the 20th century section ).



Point 1 is correct. However, you stated that the idea of the EU was to foster peace in Europe. I have no doubt that there would not have been any more conflicts in Europe anyway as the others were both started by Germany (as I said earlier). The European growth in free trade between Nations has obviously been the best thing since the Marshall Plan helped to get Europe back on its feet after WW2.

Point 2 is also correct. My belief is that the present crop of Bureaucrats have an agenda that is more like Empire building. They were carried away with the pace of their changes until Mr Putin shouted at them over the garden fence.
user747
Posted: 9 February 2019 4:41 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-09 2:33 PM

747 - 2019-02-08 7:45 PM

So the EU has been keeping us safe since WW2?

If NATO had known that they could have saved a fortune in Arms expenditure, especially the Americans who must have spent billions of Dollars on Nuclear weapons. Even better, they could have disbanded NATO and sent their troops home.

Recognising what other posters have said above, no, and I did not claim it had. However, I think you have misunderstood the difference between NATO and the EU. For NATO see here: http://tinyurl.com/nlmqzvv It has a long and evolving history, and was initially born out of WW2, just as was the EEC/EU. There the similarities end.

NATO is a defensive organisation in which all members pledge mutual support to others should any be attacked by external forces. Before NATO is engaged, there has to have been an external aggressor. It is a defensive war fighting alliance, through which the member states pledge their own forces into a common force. If you follow its changes as it has evolved, and the evolution of its control and command structures, what you will see is something that is as complex as the EU.

The EEC emerged out of WW2 as an organisation with the primary objective of fostering the economic (not military) integration of the its member states, in order to encourage, through close contact and continual dialogue, peaceful co-existence between them. Its purpose was to end the destructive wars that had historically ravaged almost all of Europe over the centuries.

The one is intended to prevent wars in Europe, the other intended to provide a protective defence for Europe while it rebuilt its industries and economies after two catastrophic wars, and latterly for other countries elsewhere - should they be attacked. Its purpose is as a deterrent, initially against Russia, but now against a wider range of potential aggressors, and to defend if the deterrent fails.

So, prevention on the one hand, and deterrence and defence on the other. To me, both seem highly desirable.

It is notable that with the existence of the EEC/EU no member states have taken up arms against each other, even though several had been at war before becoming members. That being the case, it must surely be accepted that, despite several acrimonious fallings out among its members, peace has prevailed and its aim been realised.

You seem to be advocating cure in preference to prevention as a strategy. I think you are mistaken, and that prevention is much the wiser initial strategy, but that it needs recourse to cure if it fails. That, with NATO and the EU, is what we presently have, and IMO, is what we would be wisest to keep.


Brian, if you think NATO will exist in its present form after the setup of a European Defence Force then I think you are mistaken. Trump has already castigated the European NATO Nations for not spending the agreed percentage of GDP on defence. If the USA sits on its hands, Canada will too. If Trump is voted out, the American Democrats will not intervene unless threatened directly.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 February 2019 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Just on the origin of WW1, this is from Wiki, but I think well illustrates the fallacy of the often repeated statement that Germany started the war.

"On 28 June 1914, Gavrilo Princip, a Bosnian Serb Yugoslav nationalist, assassinated the Austro-Hungarian heir Archduke Franz Ferdinand in Sarajevo, leading to the July Crisis. In response, on 23 July Austria-Hungary issued an ultimatum to Serbia. Serbia's reply failed to satisfy the Austrians, and the two moved to a war footing.

A network of interlocking alliances enlarged the crisis from a bilateral issue in the Balkans to one involving most of Europe. By July 1914, the great powers of Europe were divided into two coalitions: the Triple Entente—consisting of France, Russia and Britain—and the Triple Alliance of Germany, Austria-Hungary and Italy (the Triple Alliance was primarily defensive in nature, allowing Italy to stay out of the war in 1914).

Russia felt it necessary to back Serbia and, after Austria-Hungary shelled the Serbian capital of Belgrade on the 28th, partial mobilisation was approved. General Russian mobilisation was announced on the evening of 30 July; on the 31st, Austria-Hungary and Germany did the same, while Germany demanded Russia demobilise within 12 hours.

When Russia failed to comply, Germany declared war on 1 August in support of Austria-Hungary, with Austria-Hungary following suit on 6th; France ordered full mobilisation in support of Russia on 2 August

German strategy for a war on two fronts against France and Russia was to rapidly concentrate the bulk of its army in the West to defeat France within four weeks, then shift forces to the East before Russia could fully mobilise; this was later known as the Schlieffen Plan.

On 2 August, Germany demanded free passage through Belgium, an essential element in achieving a quick victory over France. When this was refused, German forces invaded Belgium on 3 August and declared war on France the same day; the Belgian government invoked the 1839 Treaty of London and in compliance with its obligations under this, Britain declared war on Germany on 4 August.

On 12 August, Britain and France also declared war on Austria-Hungary; on the 23rd, Japan sided with the Entente, seizing German possessions in China and the Pacific.

In November 1914, the Ottoman Empire entered the war on the side of the Alliance, opening fronts in the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and the Sinai Peninsula". It goes on.

So, simple question: who actually started WW1? Who actually declared war on who, and whose fault was that? Nice to have things clear and simple, isn't it?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 February 2019 5:29 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM
malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM
Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.
He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.
I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.

The plan was to leave ...........
All the other stuff is just bullsh*t from Remoaners and a disgruntled EU determined to make a example of anyone who dares to leave their empire ..........
We've certainly discovered how friendly our neigbours really are .........

Dave, leave is not a plan. It is merely a point of departure - it is about the past: it is where we go from. A plan needs a destination - it is about the future: it is where we go to. Where is that plan?

To get the future right, one has to get the departure right. If you want to catch a train to Edinburgh from London, there is little poing in turning up at Victoria Station, because trains from there head south, not north. So, again, where is this post Brexit plan?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 February 2019 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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747 - 2019-02-09 4:41 PM...……………..Brian, if you think NATO will exist in its present form after the setup of a European Defence Force then I think you are mistaken. Trump has already castigated the European NATO Nations for not spending the agreed percentage of GDP on defence. If the USA sits on its hands, Canada will too. If Trump is voted out, the American Democrats will not intervene unless threatened directly.

Here is a Full fact piece on the fabled European Army: http://tinyurl.com/yd8d3xmx and here is another on the current EU Common Security and Defence policy. http://tinyurl.com/hgp9hsl

Unless both are hopelessly wrong, I see no real likelihood of a European Army being created.

I suspect you are right about Trump - though much depends on how long he survives as President.

It is quite evident that both the EU, and NATO, continue to evolve in response to changing world affairs so the only certainties I see are that all will be different in 10 years time, but I have no idea how.

But, back to Tusk and Co, I would far sooner have an EU in place to ensure that member states don't start flexing their military muscles against each other, plus a strong mutual defence alliance to deter, and if necessary defend against, external aggressors.
user747
Posted: 9 February 2019 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-09 5:30 PM

747 - 2019-02-09 4:41 PM...……………..Brian, if you think NATO will exist in its present form after the setup of a European Defence Force then I think you are mistaken. Trump has already castigated the European NATO Nations for not spending the agreed percentage of GDP on defence. If the USA sits on its hands, Canada will too. If Trump is voted out, the American Democrats will not intervene unless threatened directly.

Here is a Full fact piece on the fabled European Army: http://tinyurl.com/yd8d3xmx and here is another on the current EU Common Security and Defence policy. http://tinyurl.com/hgp9hsl

Unless both are hopelessly wrong, I see no real likelihood of a European Army being created.

I suspect you are right about Trump - though much depends on how long he survives as President.

It is quite evident that both the EU, and NATO, continue to evolve in response to changing world affairs so the only certainties I see are that all will be different in 10 years time, but I have no idea how.

But, back to Tusk and Co, I would far sooner have an EU in place to ensure that member states don't start flexing their military muscles against each other, plus a strong mutual defence alliance to deter, and if necessary defend against, external aggressors.


Your first link cannot be classed as 'full fact' as it contains a statement by Nick Clegg.

Your second link shows just how convoluted the EU system is and gives no operational details for a rapid deployment. I would also urge you to read again the last line which shows that there is a move afoot to develop it into an EU Defence arm.

As for your statement that Germany did not start WW1, you are technically correct on that issue. However, Germany had been building up its armed forces (particularly its Navy) and was being closely watched by its neighbours with some trepidation. It was also Empire building around the World. Kaiser Bill was just waiting for the right excuse. He felt snubbed by his Royal Family members in the UK and Russia and wanted to get even.

Edited by 747 2019-02-09 6:14 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 9 February 2019 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:31 PM

malc d - 2019-02-09 2:00 PM


1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.



Dunno how long that claim will last once they let the Balkans in ........

Eh?

Bulgaria joined over 12 years ago, Slovenia 15 year ago, Romania 12 years ago, Greece 38 years ago, Croatia 6 years ago, Lithuania 16 years ago, Latvia 15 years ago, and Estonia 15 years.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 February 2019 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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747 - 2019-02-09 6:09 PM...………………….
1 Your first link cannot be classed as 'full fact' as it contains a statement by Nick Clegg.

2 Your second link shows just how convoluted the EU system is and gives no operational details for a rapid deployment. I would also urge you to read again the last line which shows that there is a move afoot to develop it into an EU Defence arm.

3 As for your statement that Germany did not start WW1, you are technically correct on that issue. However, Germany had been building up its armed forces (particularly its Navy) and was being closely watched by its neighbours with some trepidation. It was also Empire building around the World. Kaiser Bill was just waiting for the right excuse. He felt snubbed by his Royal Family members in the UK and Russia and wanted to get even.

1 I beg to differ, the rest of the piece (which is quite long, and is not by Clegg - whose selected quote is just two short lines) does not support the European Army theory. Quite the reverse, in fact.

2 Yes it is extremely complex, which is why I can't see it ever becoming a viable defence force. Conflicts move very quickly these days, and a structure like that looks likely to be far to slow to respond to any external threat. I couldn't find what you referred to in the last line, but it is a very long article. Had you got right to the end?

3 Yes, all of that. But the British navy was, at the time, regarded as the largest and most powerful in the world, so we had been building that up over previous years. I don't think that indicates we were doing so with the intention of starting a war. The mess of interlinked treaties, the accidental nature of the events that led up to the war, and the sequence of triggers that brought each of the combatants into conflict, would require something close to clairvoyance on the part of Germany for its growing navy to be a n indication that it had the intention of provoking war. I think it more probable that Germany saw its navy out-gunned, and thought it should reinforce it in case it was attacked. It is quite clear that at the time Europe was a powder keg. All it needed was for someone to drop a match in the wrong place. Sadly they did - in Sarajevo of all places.
userRealist
Posted: 10 February 2019 1:23 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Harvey Heaven, just a follow up on your points
1/ Thank Maggie Thatcher for preparing for those 30 years it's only going to get worse for GB from now on within the EU
2/ Really
3/Medical companies would to give up millions of profit and not liaise with GB I think not
4/ Just go through passport control and you are in like millions of other tourists
5/HAHAHAHAHA
6/GB is after all in the 5 Eyes group which is an excellent surveillance group which I am sure would
continue sharing intelligence and you expect the EU not to share. What kind of friends are they?
7/ Nothing is free

The EU is run by a commission with appointees from each country and must turn their back on those and swear allegiance to the EU project.This group of people then set about introducing legislation to the EU Parliament.
When this is introduced they are only able to make small changes but cannot reject it. Not forgetting that this legislation comes from an unelected cabal.
Do you really want to be ruled by these kind of people.
I must admit your Pet Passpot was hilarious,you were joking, right?

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 10 February 2019 11:28 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Realist - 2019-02-10 1:23 AM

Harvey Heaven, just a follow up on your points
1/ Thank Maggie Thatcher for preparing for those 30 years it's only going to get worse for GB from now on within the EU
2/ Really
3/Medical companies would to give up millions of profit and not liaise with GB I think not
4/ Just go through passport control and you are in like millions of other tourists
5/HAHAHAHAHA
6/GB is after all in the 5 Eyes group which is an excellent surveillance group which I am sure would
continue sharing intelligence and you expect the EU not to share. What kind of friends are they?
7/ Nothing is free
8/The EU is run by a commission with appointees from each country and must turn their back on those and swear allegiance to the EU project.This group of people then set about introducing legislation to the EU Parliament. When this is introduced they are only able to make small changes but cannot reject it. Not forgetting that this legislation comes from an unelected cabal.

Do you really want to be ruled by these kind of people.
I must admit your Pet Passpot was hilarious,you were joking, right?

To be a realist, you must rely for your thoughts and opinions upon reality.
So, taking each of your points 1 - 8 above, can you please quote reliable sources for them, so that we can all check whether they qualify as reality?
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 February 2019 3:48 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 6:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:31 PM

malc d - 2019-02-09 2:00 PM


1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.



Dunno how long that claim will last once they let the Balkans in ........

Eh?

Bulgaria joined over 12 years ago, Slovenia 15 year ago, Romania 12 years ago, Greece 38 years ago, Croatia 6 years ago, Lithuania 16 years ago, Latvia 15 years ago, and Estonia 15 years.


They haven't let in the trouble makers yet have they? ...........

Balkans - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans
The Balkans are usually said to comprise Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia and Slovenia.



userpelmetman
Posted: 10 February 2019 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-09 5:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-07 3:25 PM
malc d - 2019-02-07 12:41 PM
Not sure what all that has to do with Tusks outburst.
He was simply expressing his frustration with the clowns who brought about Brexit without having any kind of plan ready for what comes after.
I would think that quite a lot of people feel the same.

The plan was to leave ...........
All the other stuff is just bullsh*t from Remoaners and a disgruntled EU determined to make a example of anyone who dares to leave their empire ..........
We've certainly discovered how friendly our neigbours really are .........

Dave, leave is not a plan. It is merely a point of departure - it is about the past: it is where we go from. A plan needs a destination - it is about the future: it is where we go to. Where is that plan?

To get the future right, one has to get the departure right. If you want to catch a train to Edinburgh from London, there is little poing in turning up at Victoria Station, because trains from there head south, not north. So, again, where is this post Brexit plan?


Our plan is to become a sovereign nation once again ............

The EU's plan is to usurp all of its nations into one super state run by Germany ........

Does that EU/German plan ring any bells? ........

Same old plan......... just different method ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 10 February 2019 4:48 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-10 3:48 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 6:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:31 PM

malc d - 2019-02-09 2:00 PM


1) Since the EU was formed there have been no wars between member states.



Dunno how long that claim will last once they let the Balkans in ........

Eh?

Bulgaria joined over 12 years ago, Slovenia 15 year ago, Romania 12 years ago, Greece 38 years ago, Croatia 6 years ago, Lithuania 16 years ago, Latvia 15 years ago, and Estonia 15 years.


They haven't let in the trouble makers yet have they? ...........

No....so far they've managed to keep you out.

Balkans - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans
The Balkans are usually said to comprise Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Kosovo, the Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Serbia and Slovenia.

Key word is 'usually said'.....there are actually twelve in total.

https://sofiaadventures.com/balkan-countries/
userFast Pat
Posted: 10 February 2019 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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pelmetman - 2019-02-10 4:0

Our plan is to become a sovereign nation once again ............


So, do you want parliament to decide or is it the will of the people?

Define "sovereignty" please.
userRealist
Posted: 10 February 2019 11:43 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Hi Brian, thanks for your reply. It is a pity you didn't ask Harvey Heaven for some reliable quotes to support his post. You obviously have never heard of the intelligence alliance of the USA,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and GB. My reply obviously did not suit your remainer agenda
Regards
Realist
userFast Pat
Posted: 11 February 2019 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Realist - 2019-02-10 11:43 PM

Hi Brian, thanks for your reply. It is a pity you didn't ask Harvey Heaven for some reliable quotes to support his post. You obviously have never heard of the intelligence alliance of the USA,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and GB. My reply obviously did not suit your remainer agenda
Regards
Realist


I don't think FVEY is anything to be proud off, spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent "restrictive" domestic regulations on spying. You know the sort of thing that pesky European Parliament's Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs released a draft report in 2014 which confirmed that the intelligence agencies of New Zealand and Canada have cooperated with the NSA under the Five Eyes programme and may have been actively sharing the personal data of EU citizens.

PS. You failed to mention 14 eyes, obviously doesn't suit your brexiter agenda.
userRealist
Posted: 11 February 2019 3:18 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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You are kidding of course, are you saying that the EU do not have an intelligence bureau collecting information on prospective terrorists etc. Harvey Heaven mentioned in his post that after Brexit the Eu would not share any information. So which is it ,they do have an intelligence services or they don't. Please make up your mind
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 February 2019 11:15 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Realist - 2019-02-10 11:43 PM

Hi Brian, thanks for your reply. It is a pity you didn't ask Harvey Heaven for some reliable quotes to support his post. You obviously have never heard of the intelligence alliance of the USA,Canada,Australia,New Zealand and GB. My reply obviously did not suit your remainer agenda
Regards
Realist

Sorry, but I don't see how Five Eyes is a response to the points you made regarding the EU. It exists now, and would presumably be unaffected by us leaving, as none of the other members are in the EU.
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 February 2019 7:02 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-11 12:06 AM

I don't think FVEY is anything to be proud off, spying on one another's citizens and sharing the collected information with each other in order to circumvent "restrictive" domestic regulations on spying. You know the sort of thing that pesky European Parliament's Committee on Civil Liberties, Justice and Home Affairs released a draft report in 2014 which confirmed that the intelligence agencies of New Zealand and Canada have cooperated with the NSA under the Five Eyes programme and may have been actively sharing the personal data of EU citizens.

PS. You failed to mention 14 eyes, obviously doesn't suit your brexiter agenda.


Yet you'd vote for a Communist? ...........



userpelmetman
Posted: 11 February 2019 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-10 8:54 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-10 4:0

Our plan is to become a sovereign nation once again ............


So, do you want parliament to decide or is it the will of the people?

Define "sovereignty" please.


Only if they're prepared to carry out the wishes of the electorate .........

Or else we are no longer a Democratic Sovereign nation .........

userRealist
Posted: 11 February 2019 11:15 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Hi Brian, that was the point I was making as HH intimated that after Brexit the EU would not share any intelligence
userRealist
Posted: 12 February 2019 12:05 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Hi Fast Pat, I'm not sure what you mean as the 14 eyes is just an extension of the 5 eyes group. Unfortunately spying is here for ever you, GB suffers it in all the high streets nowadays.
I do have some questions which would answered.
1/ The EU is run by 27 appointed commissioners who initiate legislation then pass it on to Parliament to consider. The one problem with that is they cannot reject it but only make minor changes. Is this good for democracy. Answer yes/ no
2/ Is it reasonable to move the parliament to move every month from Brussels to Strasbourg, which is another concession to France surely this has to end.
3/ What are the chances of the EU banning the European Cup as it is too nationialistic. That surely will happen
Realistsome day
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 February 2019 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Realist - 2019-02-12 12:05 AM

Hi Fast Pat, I'm not sure what you mean as the 14 eyes is just an extension of the 5 eyes group. Unfortunately spying is here for ever you, GB suffers it in all the high streets nowadays.
I do have some questions which would answered.
1/ The EU is run by 27 appointed commissioners who initiate legislation then pass it on to Parliament to consider. The one problem with that is they cannot reject it but only make minor changes. Is this good for democracy. Answer yes/ no
2/ Is it reasonable to move the parliament to move every month from Brussels to Strasbourg, which is another concession to France surely this has to end.
3/ What are the chances of the EU banning the European Cup as it is too nationialistic. That surely will happen
Realistsome day

In response to your comment on Five Eyes above: yes, but it is surely better to have the added inputs from within the EU member states as well? Why throw away that?

In response to the above:
1 There are currently 28 commissioners. Yes, in the interests of consistent drafting, they initiate legislation but they can also be asked by the Parliament or the Council to commence doing so and, if so asked, they cannot refuse. The Parliament can reject, or amend, proposed legislation. The Parliament or the Council must adopt proposed legislation before it is enacted. I think your information may reflect the position before the 2007 Lisbon Treaty and is now out of date. I hope you didn't vote leave on that basis!

Three "Wiki" explanations for you:
Commission: http://tinyurl.com/y5v3acem
Council: http://tinyurl.com/y42yhoyg
Parliament: http://tinyurl.com/hypvx6j

Answer: yes or no - depending on which part of your question is being answered.

2 The dual locations of the parliament are an anachronism, and will probably be ended at some point. Men wear silk tights at Westminster. IMO that pointless flummery should also be ended. I don't see either as a reason to leave the UK, or the EU.

3 Pure supposition, and irrelevant to continuing our membership (or any other serious matters). Football is a game: get over it.
userRealist
Posted: 13 February 2019 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 
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Let's see if I have this right. The remainers voted to be governed by 56 commissioners/ councillors of which 2 are Britons ,one who has to swear allegiance to the EU project and the other your Prime Minister. You have no say on the other people who have control over how Great Britain is managed Surely the British can do much better.
I only mentioned the football as a long term perspective ( you should loosen up)
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 February 2019 12:05 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Er no, I'm afraid you have most of that wrong. Look again at the Wiki links I gave. You've only skimmed them. You'll need to read them right through to understand the structure. Britain is governed from Westminster (not that we seem to have much "say" on what they do), not the EU. I'm well loose, thanks, I just don't find football either relevant or interesting.
userBarryd999
Posted: 13 February 2019 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Britain is indeed governed by Westminster as Brian has explained but given the last two years performance from what can only be described as a government and an opposition that is simply not fit for purpose I would actually question if it should be. Maybe we would do better if we were totally governed my Europe.

userpelmetman
Posted: 13 February 2019 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: Is there room for a more considered post about Tusk and Co?
 


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Barryd999 - 2019-02-13 12:39 PM

Britain is indeed governed by Westminster as Brian has explained but given the last two years performance from what can only be described as a government and an opposition that is simply not fit for purpose I would actually question if it should be. Maybe we would do better if we were totally governed my Europe.



Correct ............

They implement the rules that come from the EU and the ECJ ..............