the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 February 2019 11:20 AM
Subject: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.

Edited by HarveyHeaven 2019-02-08 11:24 AM
user747
Posted: 8 February 2019 2:22 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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And the EU is virtuous, honest and goes to Church on Sundays.
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 February 2019 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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I agree with everything the OP says. I would like to see another fairly fought referendum based on the the options we have now on the table and remaining in the EU however right now as the OP says despite now knowing all of the above there hasnt been a massive changing of minds. I would have expected the swing to have been massive by now considering the evidence we now have of the damage Brexit will cause so if we cant have that then then perhaps the only way the UK can heal itself is to walk off the cliff into no deal. If people after all this time are still hell bent on shooting themselves in the face then maybe we have to let them get on with it in order to down the line pick up the pieces and start again.

Perhaps when we rejoin the EU and have to accept the Euro, Schengen and with no rebates we might make a better fist of it.
userBulletguy
Posted: 8 February 2019 5:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Whilst the referendum may have been initiated democratically it certainly wasn't conducted democratically as the outfall of damning revelations which followed clearly showed democracy had been subverted through manipulation and interference from external sources. Chris Wylie gave solid testimony to that fact before the Digital, Culture, Media inquiry last year over illegal data harvesting.

Irrespective of whichever way anyone had voted or their political persuasions, i would be very uncomfortable with knowledge of the facts which emerged which has done irreparable damage i never thought previously possible in this country.

Regards the rise in poverty, homeless and foodbanks etc, the report from UN special rapporteur Prof. Philip Alston was scathing;

“British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited and callous approach...austerity policies driven by a political desire to undertake social re-engineering rather than economic necessity. Changes to taxes and benefits have taken the highest toll on those least able to bear it,”

He went on to say, "the unnecessary suffering and austerity could be ended and for very little money.....but ministers remain in a state of denial".

This is his full report; https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E

Last night i watched a report on Channel 4 news who spoke to a lady who had a very privileged start in life....privately schooled, university education and worked as a language teacher, until a series of unforeseen circumstances brought her world crashing down to find herself the victim of experiencing exactly what Prof. Alston referred to...."punitive, mean-spirited and callous".

Listen to what she had to say about her experience and how she feels.

https://www.channel4.com/news/mps-visit-morecambe-in-food-bank-tour-for-chronic-poverty-report
userTracker
Posted: 8 February 2019 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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No political system anywhere on Earth is ever perfect, and even if it is close to perfect for some it will be far from perfect for others, depending on their point of view.
Such is life, and if you look around the world it matters not where you live nothing is ever perfect.
It may appear perfect to the outsider looking in but the folk who live there may well have a different perspective?
In the UK we have much to be grateful for, including the very precious freedom to moan about the state of the state without fear of persecution by said state.
Sure, like many of us I too have had some raw deals over the years from the state, from companies and from individuals - such is life's rich tapestry - pick yerself up, dust yerself off and start all over again.
I would have a lot more respect for the moaners if they had the gumption to try and do something about it instead of being just a keyboard warrior sitting in the warmth and safe anonymity of their own home.
I freely accept that I do not have that motivation either but I do not moan and whinge about the state and my own pet version of how democracy should be and neither do I try and foist my own opinions on all and sundry.
If democracy bothers you that much, get off your bum, stand for election and work towards changing it to how you see it but don't expect moaning on an obscure forum to make any difference whatsoever to anything or anyone.
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 February 2019 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-08 5:56 PM

No political system anywhere on Earth is ever perfect, and even if it is close to perfect for some it will be far from perfect for others, depending on their point of view.
Such is life, and if you look around the world it matters not where you live nothing is ever perfect.
It may appear perfect to the outsider looking in but the folk who live there may well have a different perspective?
In the UK we have much to be grateful for, including the very precious freedom to moan about the state of the state without fear of persecution by said state.
Sure, like many of us I too have had some raw deals over the years from the state, from companies and from individuals - such is life's rich tapestry - pick yerself up, dust yerself off and start all over again.
I would have a lot more respect for the moaners if they had the gumption to try and do something about it instead of being just a keyboard warrior sitting in the warmth and safe anonymity of their own home.
I freely accept that I do not have that motivation either but I do not moan and whinge about the state and my own pet version of how democracy should be and neither do I try and foist my own opinions on all and sundry.
If democracy bothers you that much, get off your bum, stand for election and work towards changing it to how you see it but don't expect moaning on an obscure forum to make any difference whatsoever to anything or anyone.


Unlike you I do engage at every level...actually you do moan and whinge a fair bit
userteflon2
Posted: 8 February 2019 6:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.




Are you having an hormonal dysfunction ?.
userMuswell
Posted: 8 February 2019 6:33 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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We had a perfectly good system of parliamentary democracy but politicians introduced referenda to avoid political difficulties. The problem is that they are infrequent and give the population a chance to "stick it to the man". My brother lived in California where they have a lot of referenda and he tells me that because people are used to them they do vote on the actual issue.
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 February 2019 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-08 5:56 PM

No political system anywhere on Earth is ever perfect, and even if it is close to perfect for some it will be far from perfect for others, depending on their point of view.
Such is life, and if you look around the world it matters not where you live nothing is ever perfect.
It may appear perfect to the outsider looking in but the folk who live there may well have a different perspective?
In the UK we have much to be grateful for, including the very precious freedom to moan about the state of the state without fear of persecution by said state.
Sure, like many of us I too have had some raw deals over the years from the state, from companies and from individuals - such is life's rich tapestry - pick yerself up, dust yerself off and start all over again.
I would have a lot more respect for the moaners if they had the gumption to try and do something about it instead of being just a keyboard warrior sitting in the warmth and safe anonymity of their own home.
I freely accept that I do not have that motivation either but I do not moan and whinge about the state and my own pet version of how democracy should be and neither do I try and foist my own opinions on all and sundry.
If democracy bothers you that much, get off your bum, stand for election and work towards changing it to how you see it but don't expect moaning on an obscure forum to make any difference whatsoever to anything or anyone.


How do you know we are not?
userTracker
Posted: 8 February 2019 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 February 2019 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


If you mean am I doing anything other than being a keyboard warrior on here Rich I am indeed. If there is ever a second (sorry third) ref Ill be the remain voice of the North on telly and stuff. Just wait till I get hold of that Farage bloke and even better Smuggy although I doubt Smuggy will come up here.
userTracker
Posted: 8 February 2019 10:33 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 9:32 PM
I doubt Smuggy will come up here.


Nobody with any sense would go up there Barry, so maybe your Uncle Jeremy will arrive one day soon and show you his amazing walking on water stunt?
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 9 February 2019 7:54 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-08 10:33 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 9:32 PM
I doubt Smuggy will come up here.


Nobody with any sense would go up there Barry, so maybe your Uncle Jeremy will arrive one day soon and show you his amazing walking on water stunt?



You mean Auntie Theresa and Uncle Jeremy together holding hands walking on water!!!
userantony1969
Posted: 9 February 2019 7:59 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Lordy ... Talk about hissy fit hysterics ... Only makes me more happy with my leave vote
userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......
userantony1969
Posted: 9 February 2019 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


I hope your activism is a little more thought out and goes further than just spewing out insults you cant back up ... As for taking aim at the issues youve pointed out and your activism , you and the issues aren't important enough
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 9 February 2019 9:59 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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antony1969 - 2019-02-09 9:39 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


I hope your activism is a little more thought out and goes further than just spewing out insults you cant back up ... As for taking aim at the issues youve pointed out and your activism , you and the issues aren't important enough[/QUOTE

I can see that Fast Pat has used rather a lot of words most Brexiters won't understand and thus can't relate to.......in fact all those words relating to honour, decency, humanity, democracy, culture....not in the dictionary of a Brexiter....so as we can see here that most Brexiters won't have the intelectual capacity to understand any of it
userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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antony1969 - 2019-02-09 9:39 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


I hope your activism is a little more thought out and goes further than just spewing out insults you cant back up ... As for taking aim at the issues youve pointed out and your activism , you and the issues aren't important enough


Well then Anthony, I've shown you mine time to show me your's.

So what practical steps have you taken other than "spewing out insults", what marches have you been on and which groups do you / have you, belong to?
userTracker
Posted: 9 February 2019 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM
So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


Not at all - I respect your commitment - whilst not always agreeing with your causes!
userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 10:02 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Tracker - 2019-02-09 10:00 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM
So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


Not at all - I respect your commitment - whilst not always agreeing with your causes!


Fair enough. That's how a democracy should work.
userantony1969
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 10:00 AM

antony1969 - 2019-02-09 9:39 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


I hope your activism is a little more thought out and goes further than just spewing out insults you cant back up ... As for taking aim at the issues youve pointed out and your activism , you and the issues aren't important enough


Well then Anthony, I've shown you mine time to show me your's.

So what practical steps have you taken other than "spewing out insults", what marches have you been on and which groups do you / have you, belong to?


If you can keep it civil without throwing your usual insults i'll tell ya ... I don't belong to any groups , any political party , any movement or been on any marches and I cant see that changing any time soon
userTracker
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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antony1969 - 2019-02-09 11:04 AM
I don't belong to any groups , any political party , any movement or been on any marches and I cant see that changing any time soon


Me too!

But neither do I try to foist my own views onto other people or insist that I am right and they are wrong.

userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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antony1969 - 2019-02-09 11:04 AM

If you can keep it civil without throwing your usual insults i'll tell ya ... I don't belong to any groups , any political party , any movement or been on any marches and I cant see that changing any time soon


Oh so your "activism is confined to "spewing out insults" and spreading falsehoods, gaslighting minorities on the internet then?
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:44 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-09 11:07 AM

antony1969 - 2019-02-09 11:04 AM
I don't belong to any groups , any political party , any movement or been on any marches and I cant see that changing any time soon


Me too!

But neither do I try to foist my own views onto other people or insist that I am right and they are wrong.



Apart from supporting a fraudulent referendum in 2016 and resisting any efforts to allow democracy to rectify that fraud.
userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:54 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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How is Grayling still a minister?
How is Green still a “sir”?
How is May still prime minister?
How do the super-rich still cheat on their taxes with impunity?
How are newspapers still allowed to foment hatred?
How do we allow so many to go hungry and/or homeless in a rich country?
userantony1969
Posted: 9 February 2019 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 11:12 AM

antony1969 - 2019-02-09 11:04 AM

If you can keep it civil without throwing your usual insults i'll tell ya ... I don't belong to any groups , any political party , any movement or been on any marches and I cant see that changing any time soon


Oh so your "activism is confined to "spewing out insults" and spreading falsehoods, gaslighting minorities on the internet then?


"activism" ... What "activism" ??? What "insults and falsehoods" ??? and if you mean pointing out the lone white girl getting beaten up by a gang of non-whites then yes I suppose she was very much in the minority
Now im away for another gig later and a few beers and nice meal at Ginos but you keep posting to me and it'll give me sumat to do when I wake up tomorrow ... Your a lot of fun you are

Edited by antony1969 2019-02-09 11:59 AM
userantony1969
Posted: 9 February 2019 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 11:54 AM

How is Grayling still a minister?
How is Green still a “sir”?
How is May still prime minister?
How do the super-rich still cheat on their taxes with impunity?
How are newspapers still allowed to foment hatred?
How do we allow so many to go hungry and/or homeless in a rich country?


Or allow anti-Semites to rule our opposition
Or allow terrorist lovers to rule our opposition
Or allow opposition members to be racist towards whites or tell young female victims of Muslim sex gangs to shut up
A few for you to be going at ... Have fun sweetheart
userFast Pat
Posted: 9 February 2019 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Ever wondered what happened to Lansley who trashed the NHS?

Now comfortably in Lords and - uh - working for private health company

Everyday, banal, routine British elite corruption
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 1:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 11:54 AM

How is Grayling still a minister?
How is Green still a “sir”?
How is May still prime minister?
How do the super-rich still cheat on their taxes with impunity?
How are newspapers still allowed to foment hatred?
How do we allow so many to go hungry and/or homeless in a rich country?


How is a Communist the leader of the Labour party? ..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 9 February 2019 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

Its become evident since then we were lied too ............

Are we in a Common Market?..............NO.......We're in a Federalist Empire .............

userBulletguy
Posted: 9 February 2019 3:17 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:37 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

We were told we could start negotiations in 1969......making you 11. We joined the EEC 1 January 1973 by which time you were either 13 or 14.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-09 3:19 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 3:28 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:17 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:37 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

We were told we could start negotiations in 1969......making you 11. We joined the EEC 1 January 1973 by which time you were either 13 or 14.


Which proves what?.........That you can count .......it also shows that I was too young to vote, not that I made a fuss like to days snowflakes ..........

Plus it proves I have 46 years experience of EU membership to base my vote on .........

Unlike many whinging whining Remoaners ............

userBulletguy
Posted: 9 February 2019 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-09 3:28 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:17 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:37 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

We were told we could start negotiations in 1969......making you 11. We joined the EEC 1 January 1973 by which time you were either 13 or 14.


Which proves what?.........

That you were only 11 years old at the time which is what i'd originally stated. So i find it totally inconceivable you could possibly ever have had a grasp of politics whatsoever at that age......and not much has changed since!
userpelmetman
Posted: 9 February 2019 4:06 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 3:28 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:17 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:37 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

We were told we could start negotiations in 1969......making you 11. We joined the EEC 1 January 1973 by which time you were either 13 or 14.


Which proves what?.........

That you were only 11 years old at the time which is what i'd originally stated. So i find it totally inconceivable you could possibly ever have had a grasp of politics whatsoever at that age......and not much has changed since!


Blimey Bullet you dont arf talk some tosh ............

Yet no doubt you'd be happy to let 16 year olds vote in another referendum? ..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 9 February 2019 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-09 4:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 3:28 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 3:17 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 2:37 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-09 2:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........

But you were only 11 years old then. Tell me how an 11 year old child had such an amazing knowledge and grasp of politics back then when most normal 11 year old boys were more concerned with kicking a ball around.....and what happened for you to lose all that knowledge since?


Actually in 1975 I was sweet 17 .............

We were told we could start negotiations in 1969......making you 11. We joined the EEC 1 January 1973 by which time you were either 13 or 14.


Which proves what?.........

That you were only 11 years old at the time which is what i'd originally stated. So i find it totally inconceivable you could possibly ever have had a grasp of politics whatsoever at that age......and not much has changed since!


Blimey Bullet you dont arf talk some tosh ............

Yet no doubt you'd be happy to let 16 year olds vote in another referendum? ..........

First you appeared confused as to exactly when UK was told they could begin negotiations to join the EEC, then you were confused as to your actual age and after i pointed out you could only have been 11, for reasons best known to yourself you said you were 17 in 1975.....which was totally irrelevant to the timeline concerning the EEC but proved you were 11 years old in 1969.

Why not simply say "yes i was 11 years old then" instead of making yourself look more silly than usual?

I don't have any issue with 16 year olds being given the vote. Hague was 16 years old when he gave his first speech at the Tory party conference in 1977 and went on to carve a career in politics.....so why not?
userTracker
Posted: 9 February 2019 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


50002000100050010010025
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


Fer cryin out loud children give it a rest and get a life.
userantony1969
Posted: 10 February 2019 8:49 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10906
50005000500100100100100
Location: Sunny Huddersfield


HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-09 9:59 AM

antony1969 - 2019-02-09 9:39 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-08 7:08 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-02-08 6:40 PM
How do you know we are not?


Just a guess Barry - it comes from being well used to loadsa wannabe experts on here - are you?


I'm not an expert, I leave that to my wife.

I am though, and always have been an activist. For all sorts of luvvie causes, I have stood outside embassies protesting against apartheid, marched against the poll tax and the Iraq war (so against both political parties when they're "wrong"). Oh and Brexit of course. I've contributed to Amnesty and the various anti fascist groups, currently Hope not Hate, since I first got pocket money.

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader, Blair was my MP when I moved back up here and I left Labour and joined the Greens as I just saw him as Maggie light.

Now some of these may be considered lost causes, but a lot of folk said that about apartheid. The one thing I have noticed during my "activism" is the way in which the mainstream media has moved to the right, not surprising when you consider that the six media tycoons that control the press are protecting their interests. But I've also taken heart at the cross section of society that is waking up to the inequalities the MSM are promoting. Had a lovely moment at a fracking site when a "respectable little old lady" and a "crustie" chained themselves together, uniited in a common bond.


So there's your ammunition folks, take aim......


I hope your activism is a little more thought out and goes further than just spewing out insults you cant back up ... As for taking aim at the issues youve pointed out and your activism , you and the issues aren't important enough[/QUOTE

I can see that Fast Pat has used rather a lot of words most Brexiters won't understand and thus can't relate to.......in fact all those words relating to honour, decency, humanity, democracy, culture....not in the dictionary of a Brexiter....so as we can see here that most Brexiters won't have the intelectual capacity to understand any of it


Und with that last disgraceful comment you sum up perfectly what remoaners have become ... Thankfully unlike Barry you stop short of blaming Brexit types of murder and violence ... So let's sum up what remain voters believe leave voters are ...Murderers , violent , lack honour , decency , humanity and don't understand democracy and culture ... All this because we voted to leave the EU ... Go figure
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 February 2019 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader,


Corbyn a Socialist? ..........

If you say so Comrade .........

userFast Pat
Posted: 10 February 2019 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 878
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Location: Hymer Exsis 588


pelmetman - 2019-02-10 4:15 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader,


Corbyn a Socialist? ..........

If you say so Comrade .........



Okay I'll bite. So what would you describe him as? A pensioner pacifist allotment owner or a KGB operative?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-dangerous-hero-mail-on-sunday-unfit-for-office-tom-bower-labour-brexit-expose-a8772416.html
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 February 2019 7:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Fast Pat - 2019-02-10 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-10 4:15 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader,


Corbyn a Socialist? ..........

If you say so Comrade .........



Okay I'll bite. So what would you describe him as? A pensioner pacifist allotment owner or a KGB operative?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-dangerous-hero-mail-on-sunday-unfit-for-office-tom-bower-labour-brexit-expose-a8772416.html


"Putin's useful idiot" ............

BTW did you ever visit Soviet Russia? ...........

I did in the mid 70's ...........

They still had rationing ........



userBulletguy
Posted: 11 February 2019 8:36 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-11 7:26 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-10 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-10 4:15 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-02-09 8:49 AM

Oh and in case you hadn't guessed, I rejoined the Labour Party once they had a socialist leader,


Corbyn a Socialist? ..........

If you say so Comrade .........



Okay I'll bite. So what would you describe him as? A pensioner pacifist allotment owner or a KGB operative?

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-dangerous-hero-mail-on-sunday-unfit-for-office-tom-bower-labour-brexit-expose-a8772416.html


"Putin's useful idiot" ............

You will upset your boyfriend. That title belongs to Trump.


BTW did you ever visit Soviet Russia? ...........

I did in the mid 70's ...........

They still had rationing ........

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm
userFast Pat
Posted: 11 February 2019 8:43 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 878
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Location: Hymer Exsis 588


pelmetman - 2019-02-11 7:26 PM

"Putin's useful idiot" ............

BTW did you ever visit Soviet Russia? ...........

I did in the mid 70's ...........

They still had rationing ........


Now I see why you are so keen on Brexit, you are feeling nostalgic and want to return to food rationing?
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 February 2019 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Fast Pat - 2019-02-11 8:43 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-11 7:26 PM

"Putin's useful idiot" ............

BTW did you ever visit Soviet Russia? ...........

I did in the mid 70's ...........

They still had rationing ........


Now I see why you are so keen on Brexit, you are feeling nostalgic and want to return to food rationing?


Incorrect ...........Now you see why I despise Communists ......

userpelmetman
Posted: 11 February 2019 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 11 February 2019 9:55 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-11 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

Oh FGS READ THE DAMN LINKS.....you're as obtuse as your dyslexic boyfriend.

As for your claim of 'being in Russia', given your well noted history of making stuff up as you go along, i'm afraid i treat that with the same hilarity when asked which countries you'd been in in 2019, only for you to then do a copy 'n paste job from a list of world countries!!
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 12 February 2019 9:13 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Pops in from time to time

Posts: 116
100
Location: Staffordshire - Adria Coral Supreme680ST


pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!

Edited by HarveyHeaven 2019-02-12 9:15 AM
userBulletguy
Posted: 12 February 2019 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!

Neither can the Pelmet plonker.......he was only 11. As you've discovered, he just makes stuff up to fit his narrative as he fumbles along!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 February 2019 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM...…………..
We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market ......…

It is strange that such a serious minded and precocious youth failed to read the papers in 1973, and remained unaware of the nature of the European Economic Community (AKA the Common Market), it origins, and the changes it had already made. We did join, though, so what was the actual lie? Could that now mature youth point to it?
userpelmetman
Posted: 13 February 2019 8:57 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-13 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM...…………..
We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market ......…

It is strange that such a serious minded and precocious youth failed to read the papers in 1973, and remained unaware of the nature of the European Economic Community (AKA the Common Market), it origins, and the changes it had already made. We did join, though, so what was the actual lie? Could that now mature youth point to it?


That precocious youth has become a belligerent Brexiteer after 46 years experience of EU membership ...........

userpelmetman
Posted: 13 February 2019 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Please post a link to the statement from the Electoral Commission that says the "Referendum was Fraudulent"? ...............

userpelmetman
Posted: 13 February 2019 9:01 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 9:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-11 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

Oh FGS READ THE DAMN LINKS.....you're as obtuse as your dyslexic boyfriend.

As for your claim of 'being in Russia', given your well noted history of making stuff up as you go along, i'm afraid i treat that with the same hilarity when asked which countries you'd been in in 2019, only for you to then do a copy 'n paste job from a list of world countries!!


Fancy a bet? ...........

userBulletguy
Posted: 13 February 2019 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-13 9:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 9:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-11 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

Oh FGS READ THE DAMN LINKS.....you're as obtuse as your dyslexic boyfriend.

As for your claim of 'being in Russia', given your well noted history of making stuff up as you go along, i'm afraid i treat that with the same hilarity when asked which countries you'd been in in 2019, only for you to then do a copy 'n paste job from a list of world countries!!


Fancy a bet? ...........

You shouldn't need to start your boyfriends silly game of calling for bets if you were so cock sure....post up photocopy of the stamps in your Visa and passport. Until you do, then no i don't believe you because you have a long history of making up fairy stories.
userpelmetman
Posted: 14 February 2019 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-13 10:04 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-13 9:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 9:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-11 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

Oh FGS READ THE DAMN LINKS.....you're as obtuse as your dyslexic boyfriend.

As for your claim of 'being in Russia', given your well noted history of making stuff up as you go along, i'm afraid i treat that with the same hilarity when asked which countries you'd been in in 2019, only for you to then do a copy 'n paste job from a list of world countries!!


Fancy a bet? ...........

You shouldn't need to start your boyfriends silly game of calling for bets if you were so cock sure....post up photocopy of the stamps in your Visa and passport. Until you do, then no i don't believe you because you have a long history of making up fairy stories.


How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?...........£1000......£10,000.......£100,000? ...........

Time to put up or shut up Bullet ...............



userBulletguy
Posted: 14 February 2019 1:00 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-13 10:04 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-13 9:01 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 9:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-11 9:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-11 8:36 PM

Rubbish.....it ended before you were even born! Seven years before UK to be precise.

http://soviethistory.msu.edu/1947-2/end-of-rationing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/4/newsid_3818000/3818563.stm


Yeah like you were there Bullet ........

When was the last time you walked around a Soviet supermarket Bullet? ........

Just asking you to back up your Bulletsh*t with facts from someone who was there ........

Oh FGS READ THE DAMN LINKS.....you're as obtuse as your dyslexic boyfriend.

As for your claim of 'being in Russia', given your well noted history of making stuff up as you go along, i'm afraid i treat that with the same hilarity when asked which countries you'd been in in 2019, only for you to then do a copy 'n paste job from a list of world countries!!


Fancy a bet? ...........

You shouldn't need to start your boyfriends silly game of calling for bets if you were so cock sure....post up photocopy of the stamps in your Visa and passport. Until you do, then no i don't believe you because you have a long history of making up fairy stories.


How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?...........£1000......£10,000.......£100,000? ...........

Oh so it's now gone from "being in" to just "visited"!!! You having a laugh or what? That's like an overseas sailor boy on a tub mooring at Portsmouth going back to his home country and telling his mates he's "been in Britain"!!!!!!

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!
userpelmetman
Posted: 14 February 2019 1:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

BTW you need to book a year ahead to spend the winter on this crummy campsite ...........

userpelmetman
Posted: 14 February 2019 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Oh so it's now gone from "being in" to just "visited"!!! You having a laugh or what? That's like an overseas sailor boy on a tub mooring at Portsmouth going back to his home country and telling his mates he's "been in Britain"!!!!!!



That's not the view of those of us who were there.......... But don't just take my word for it ..........


ODDESSA
By CPO(OPS)EW D. A. Laybourne

It was one of those ‘once in a lifetime’ events – the opportunity to visit Russia. A mysterious and yet awe inspiring country.
A great deal of preparation was carried out in Grand Harbour, Malta. All the paintwork was renewed. ‘Cosmetic’ being the ‘in’ word. On the Flight Deck stores were being uncrated, whilst the band marched and the drummers beat their way through the debris. Up forward the decks were being scrubbed, watched by the Commander, fully dressed with his telescope under his arm except for his bare feet! No one was allowed to mark those decks once they’d been scrubbed.

Eventually, Devonshire arrived at Odessa. The visit coincided with the visit by a Russian destroyer to Portsmouth. The ship berthed stern towards the town and the famous Poteinkin Steps. Directly opposite was a Russian destroyer which was our host ship.

That forenoon 30 of us visited the Russian destroyer. We were ushered on to the forecastle where we were given Russian/English language guides. There followed half an hour of chatting and photo taking assisted by the language guides. Then we were escorted down between decks via a carefully chosen route such that there was little to see. The main impression was of narrow passages and low deckheads. One felt that the compartments around were crammed with equipment with little space for the crew.

We reached a compartment reminiscent of an empty messdeck. At one end was an orchestra and singers, dressed as sailors. In the centre of the room was a line of tables laid out with food and jugs of fruit juice. Around the bulkheads were pictures of Karl Marx, Lenin and other heros of the Soviet Union, including some sports personalities. In one corner was a table piled high with free literature on communism and other doctrine. There were also advertisements on life in the Russian Army and pictures of operations with satellite countries.

Our hosts were young Russian sailors similarly armed with language guides. One got the impression that they were a bit bewildered by the whole thing. In some ways, they could be likened to Boy Seamen from Ganges – fresh faced, fit and just a little ignorant of what life had in store for them.

The first treat we had was the orchestra playing some very powerful Russian folk songs sung by their sailors. It all sounded very professional and was very, very good. Next there followed a round of speeches from both sides and then more singing followed.

Tours of Devonshire also proved to be very popular as could be seen from the large queues of local people every day. they were very friendly and many could speak some English. Inevitably politics raised its ugly head but the average Russian showed very little interest in it.
Teenage girls met teenage sailors just as in any other port. They were very inquisitive, particularly about life in the West.

Come the day of departure, there were lots of people to see us off including girls in tears. 1 think everyone had enjoyed the visit particularly as we had been made so very welcome.

It was was a very valuable experience – thanks to HMS Devonshire in June, 1976.



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-14 1:48 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 14 February 2019 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!
userTracker
Posted: 14 February 2019 4:43 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I doubt the Russians saw it that way Brian?

Left hand down a bit!
usermalc d
Posted: 14 February 2019 5:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!




I reckon HMS Devonshire used to sail in circles around the Isle of Wight - land occasionally - and, each time, tell Dave he was in a different country.

userTracker
Posted: 14 February 2019 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: Vanless in Evesham.


malc d - 2019-02-14 5:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!




I reckon HMS Devonshire used to sail in circles around the Isle of Wight - land occasionally - and, each time, tell Dave he was in a different country.



As the Isle of Widget is more sort of diamond shaped sailing around it in a circle would cerainly confuse Naughtycal Dave, and hopefully the Russians too, especially if they switched from clockwise to anti clockwise?

Edited by Tracker 2019-02-14 5:50 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 14 February 2019 5:57 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


In 1976 it was part of the Soviet Union which was commonly referred to as "Russia" Brian .........

From wiki......

"Nominally a union of multiple national Soviet republics, its government and economy were highly centralized. The country was a one-party state, governed by the Communist Party with Moscow as its capital in its largest republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Russian SFSR)."

Judging by Putin's actions he intends to make it part of Russia again .........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-14 6:09 PM
userTracker
Posted: 14 February 2019 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Putin's favourite song. allegedly, - 'Cri me a River.'
userBulletguy
Posted: 14 February 2019 9:52 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-14 9:55 PM




(UKRAINE 1970s map.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments UKRAINE 1970s map.jpg (95KB - 26 downloads)
userBulletguy
Posted: 14 February 2019 10:03 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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malc d - 2019-02-14 5:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I reckon HMS Devonshire used to sail in circles around the Isle of Wight - land occasionally - and, each time, tell Dave he was in a different country.

He sailed a 15ft dingy through the Bermuda triangle dontcha know. His head has never been right since.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:08 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 9:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine


So like I said Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ............

Which is why we were guests of the Russian Navy.........Not Ukraine's ........

userageingandrew
Posted: 15 February 2019 11:36 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!



Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.



userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 3:24 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:08 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 9:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine


So like I said Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ............

Politically yes geographically no. It's like claiming Poland as "being in" USSR purely because UK and US [wrongly] 'gave' it to them when allied forces divvied up after the war (read up on Yalta conference).

The partial map i posted showing exactly which country Odessa is in should have been enough but click on the jpeg link which shows the entire country. I couldn't post it up as the file size is way too much for OAL and reducing it down makes it impossible to read. The map is 1970's Ukraine.....the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away.

You're attempting to dispute a geographical fact.
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 3:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:08 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 9:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine


So like I said Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ............

Politically yes geographically no. It's like claiming Poland as "being in" USSR purely because UK and US [wrongly] 'gave' it to them when allied forces divvied up after the war (read up on Yalta conference).

The partial map i posted showing exactly which country Odessa is in should have been enough but click on the jpeg link which shows the entire country. I couldn't post it up as the file size is way too much for OAL and reducing it down makes it impossible to read. The map is 1970's Ukraine.....the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away.

You're attempting to dispute a geographical fact.


Rubbish the USSR was ruled from Moscow .............

Your argument is like saying Wales isn't part of Britain .........

Except Wales has far more autonomy than the Ukraine did in 1976 ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 4:14 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:02 PM

ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.


Curiously you Remoaners are happy to bury your heads about the 9 million of taxpayers dosh he spent on your campaign ..........

RUDDY REMOANER HYPOCRITES .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 3:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:08 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 9:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine


So like I said Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ............

Politically yes geographically no. It's like claiming Poland as "being in" USSR purely because UK and US [wrongly] 'gave' it to them when allied forces divvied up after the war (read up on Yalta conference).

The partial map i posted showing exactly which country Odessa is in should have been enough but click on the jpeg link which shows the entire country. I couldn't post it up as the file size is way too much for OAL and reducing it down makes it impossible to read. The map is 1970's Ukraine.....the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away.

You're attempting to dispute a geographical fact.


Rubbish the USSR was ruled from Moscow .............

Your argument is like saying Wales isn't part of Britain .........

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 4:49 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 3:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:08 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 9:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 1:38 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-14 1:00 PM

Your idea of seeing and being in a country is very different to that of mine. Lets face it, you sit on some crummy campsite in Calpe half the year!!!!


Which is a lot longer than you spend anywhere ...........

I don't go touring for the sole purpose of seeing how long i can be away from the UK.....i tour different countries, something which appears anathema to you. Which begs the question, if so fanatically patriotic.......why do you do your utmost to spend half the year away from a country you claim to 'love' so much? Can you not see the hypocrisy in that? Because everyone else can.


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

He's looking at it as Ukrainian SSR which politically it was up till 1991 but geographically Odessa has always been a port city of Ukraine, even in the 1970's and the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away. Odessa Oblast expanded in 1954 to absorb Izmail Oblast (also known as the Budjak region of Bessarabia), formed in 1940 as a result of the Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (from Romania), when Northern and Southern parts of Bessarabia were given to the Ukrainian SSR.

Below is a partial map of 1970's Ukraine. Unfortunately the only one i could find is in Cyrillic script and i know Pelmet struggles with our Roman script (them bloody migrants...again....it's their fault we use these funny letters!!), but Odessa is clearly marked. Ignore the green, that's Moldova. The full map can be viewed here; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg and some more reading for Pelmet https://www.britannica.com/place/Odessa-Ukraine


So like I said Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ............

Politically yes geographically no. It's like claiming Poland as "being in" USSR purely because UK and US [wrongly] 'gave' it to them when allied forces divvied up after the war (read up on Yalta conference).

The partial map i posted showing exactly which country Odessa is in should have been enough but click on the jpeg link which shows the entire country. I couldn't post it up as the file size is way too much for OAL and reducing it down makes it impossible to read. The map is 1970's Ukraine.....the nearest Russian border is almost 500 miles away.

You're attempting to dispute a geographical fact.


Rubbish the USSR was ruled from Moscow .............

Your argument is like saying Wales isn't part of Britain .........

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .........I also know that at the time they were at least 30 years behind the times back then ..........and they still had rationing .......

Perhaps you should rethink your hero worship of all things leftist? ..........

Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-15 7:00 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 7:06 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

In 1976 it WAS based in Odessa ..........I know because I was there ........

userTracker
Posted: 15 February 2019 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


50002000100050010010025
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......



Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners - it just takes a bit longer to show when they start with national wealth as their source, before screwing theier own population - and it is unfotunate that the freedom of thought and speech that undemocratic Britain enjoys is often one of the first casualties.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Tracker - 2019-02-15 7:08 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......



Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners - it just takes a bit longer to show when they start with national wealth as their source, before screwing theier own population - and it is unfotunate that the freedom of thought and speech that undemocratic Britain enjoys is often one of the first casualties.


You have a point Rich ............

Nicolás Maduro Moros (/m?'d??ro?/; Spanish: [niko'las ma'du?o 'mo?os];[2] born 23 November 1962) is a Venezuelan politician serving as the 46th President of Venezuela since 2013 and previously served as Minister of Foreign Affairs from 2006 to 2013 and as Vice President of Venezuela from 2012 to 2013 under President Hugo Chávez.

Beginning his working life as a bus driver, Maduro rose to become a trade union leader before being elected to the National Assembly in 2000. He was appointed to a number of positions within the Venezuelan government under Chávez, ultimately being made Foreign Minister in 2006. He was described during this time as the "most capable administrator and politician of Chávez's inner circle".[3] After Chávez's death was announced on 5 March 2013, Maduro assumed the powers and responsibilities of the President. A special election was held on 14 April 2013 to elect a new President, and Maduro won with 50.62% of the votes as the candidate of the United Socialist Party of Venezuela. He was formally inaugurated on 19 April.[4] He has ruled Venezuela by decree since 19 November 2013 through powers granted to him by the Venezuela legislature.[5][6][7][8] His presidency has coincided with a decline in Venezuela's socioeconomic status, with crime, inflation, poverty and hunger increasing; analysts have attributed Venezuela's decline to both Chávez and Maduro's economic policies,[9][10][11][12] while Maduro has blamed speculation and economic warfare waged by his political opponents.[13][14][15][16][17][18] Shortages in Venezuela and decreased living standards resulted in protests beginning in 2014 that escalated into daily marches nationwide, resulting in 43 deaths and a decrease in Maduro's popularity.[19][20][21][22] Maduro's loss of popularity saw the election of an opposition-led National Assembly in 2015 and a movement toward recalling Maduro in 2016, though Maduro still maintains power through loyal political bodies, such as the Supreme Tribunal, National Electoral Council and the military.[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_Maduro

It appears the moral to this story is ..........Beware us ex Bus drivers ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 7:36 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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malc d - 2019-02-14 5:18 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!




I reckon HMS Devonshire used to sail in circles around the Isle of Wight - land occasionally - and, each time, tell Dave he was in a different country.



Actually Malc my first foreign trip on the Devonshire was to Hamburg .......

Where I went window shopping down the Reeperbahn as a 17 year old ......

Since then......Window shopping has been a massive disappointment .......



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-15 7:42 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:29 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia .......

Back then it was no different to a county border in the UK .........

As far as the Government and the Navy was concerned we were engaged in reciprocal visits with Russia .............

Which is why a Russian ship was timed to visit Portsmouth at the same time ........

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-15 8:43 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Tracker - 2019-02-15 7:08 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......



Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners -

America? Yes you'd be right on "screwing up any country to feather their own nest" on that one, though i've always had their politics more right wing leaning than left. There are plenty of American media sources explaining their meddling and encouraging various coups over the years to install another puppet.

Doesn't take much to see why the US is so interested in Venezuela.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:49 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:45 PM

Tracker - 2019-02-15 7:08 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......



Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners -

America? Yes you'd be right on "screwing up any country to feather their own nest" on that one, though i've always had their politics more right wing leaning than left. There are plenty of American media sources explaining their meddling and encouraging various coups over the years to install another puppet.

Doesn't take much to see why the US is so interested in Venezuela.


Doesn't take much to see why Putin is so interested in Venezuela............ Comrade ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-15 8:50 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:51 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 8:59 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

There is a very large country between Moldova and Russia. Can you tell me the name of it?
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

There is a very large country between Moldova and Russia. Can you tell me the name of it?


Yeah ......in 1976 it was commonly known as Russia .........



userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 9:20 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 9:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

There is a very large country between Moldova and Russia. Can you tell me the name of it?


Yeah ......in 1976 it was commonly known as Russia .........

No it wasn't......you're purposely avoiding stating Ukraine as though it never existed. I asked you to state the name of the country Odessa is, and always has been, geographically located in.....not politically.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 February 2019 9:40 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 9:20 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 9:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

There is a very large country between Moldova and Russia. Can you tell me the name of it?


Yeah ......in 1976 it was commonly known as Russia .........

No it wasn't......you're purposely avoiding stating Ukraine as though it never existed. I asked you to state the name of the country Odessa is, and always has been, geographically located in.....not politically.


A bit of history for you about your Communist chums.......

The Ukrainian government briefly allied themselves with Poland, but could not withstand the Soviet assault. In 1922, Ukraine became one of the original constituent republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (U.S.S.R.); it would not regain its independence until the U.S.S.R.'s collapse in 1991.5 Nov 2009

Ergo....... they were part of the USSR, commonly known as Russia since 1922 until 1991 .......

Although it appears your mate Putin has an issue with them leaving ..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 15 February 2019 9:50 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-15 9:40 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 9:20 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 9:11 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 8:39 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 8:29 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 7:06 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:39 PM

It's not an "argument" though Dave, you cannot dispute a geographical fact of the location of Odessa. Will you do yourself a favour by looking at that 1970's map of Ukraine (the full jpeg i linked) as i know you haven't looked at it? Even though all the place names are in Cyrillic, it's very easy to see the location of Odessa.


The thing is Paul .........I know where Odessa is as I went there ...........

I also know it was very much part of Russia as it was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet .......

Sorry but you're still attempting to 'move' the geographical location of a city out of one country to another.

Have you actually looked at that map? You haven't have you? I know why you won't but please open it (the large jpeg i linked) and then tell me the name of the country you see Odessa marked.

The Black Sea Fleet base is Sevastopol Crimea, one of the reasons for it's recent annexation from Ukraine by Russia but thats a convenient deflection.


The Black Sea Fleet is NOW based in the Crimea .......Because Putin has annexed it .......

Dave....we aren't discussing the Black Sea Fleet which was why i said it's just a convenient deflection. Neither was i discussing Venezuela, Putin or God knows what else you want to shoehorn in.

Now, back to what i've been asking you to do but for some reason you've continually avoided.

1) Click on this jpeg link of 1970's Ukraine; http://expositions.nlr.ru/ex_map/Krim/images/big/18.jpg

2) Tell me the country name where Odessa is marked.


Paul......In 1976 the Ukraine was part of the USSR commonly known as Russia ......

You're conflating political location with geographical location which i've already gone through so i'll ask you again.....what is the name of the country Odessa is marked on that 1970's map?

JUST the country name......cut the waffle and deflection, just name the country. One word is all you need in reply.


Russia ........

There is a very large country between Moldova and Russia. Can you tell me the name of it?


Yeah ......in 1976 it was commonly known as Russia .........

No it wasn't......you're purposely avoiding stating Ukraine as though it never existed. I asked you to state the name of the country Odessa is, and always has been, geographically located in.....not politically.

Ukraine.

Correct.....i've edited out the rest of your waffle because i only needed to see you state the name of the country Odessa is and always has been geographically located in.
userTracker
Posted: 16 February 2019 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


50002000100050010010025
Location: Vanless in Evesham.


This stupid childish prattle of repasting yards of repeats to add a one line response is stupid and childish - deliberate repeat - and is contributing towards making this forum so unattractive to many people and you should be ashamed of your own stupid and childish point scoring attempts.
Grow up.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:38 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


500050005000100010010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-13 8:57 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-13 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM...…………..
We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market ......…

It is strange that such a serious minded and precocious youth failed to read the papers in 1973, and remained unaware of the nature of the European Economic Community (AKA the Common Market), it origins, and the changes it had already made. We did join, though, so what was the actual lie? Could that now mature youth point to it?


That precocious youth has become a belligerent Brexiteer after 46 years experience of EU membership ...........

So there was no lie: you were told you could join a Common Market, and you did.

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-02-16 2:51 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


500050005000100010010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Tracker - 2019-02-14 4:43 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I doubt the Russians saw it that way Brian?

Left hand down a bit!

Yes, but I bet the Ukrainians did! It'd be like telling a Welshman that Wales is part of England, wouldn't it? I'll get me own coat!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 2:50 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


500050005000100010010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-14 5:57 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

In 1976 it was part of the Soviet Union which was commonly referred to as "Russia" Brian .........
From wiki......
"Nominally a union of multiple national Soviet republics, its government and economy were highly centralized. The country was a one-party state, governed by the Communist Party with Moscow as its capital in its largest republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Russian SFSR)."
Judging by Putin's actions he intends to make it part of Russia again .........

Also from Wiki, but on Ukraine:

"The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture, with the powerful state of Kievan Rus' forming the basis of Ukrainian identity. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but its territory was eventually split between Poland and the Russian Empire, and finally merged fully into the Russian-dominated Soviet Union in the late 1940s as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. In 1991 Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union in the aftermath of its dissolution at the end of the Cold War. Before its independence, Ukraine was typically referred to in English as "The Ukraine", but most sources have since moved to drop "the" from the name of Ukraine in all uses."

So, even under the USSR it retained its name, as in "the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic", but never Russia. Just depends when you count from, doesn't it?
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 3:13 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Tracker - 2019-02-15 7:08 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-15 4:49 PM
Coz as we can see from Venezuela they can even f*ck up a oil rich country .......

Commies and lefties are not proud - they will screw up any country whilst they feather their own comfy corners - it just takes a bit longer to show when they start with national wealth as their source, before screwing theier own population - and it is unfotunate that the freedom of thought and speech that undemocratic Britain enjoys is often one of the first casualties.

Here is a Wiki link: http://tinyurl.com/yyhftjd3

It is a long piece, that I found fascinating, as so many of the stated reasons behind Brexit chime with me.

It also seems relevant to the title of this string, as what it is really pointing out is how much our democracy has been quietly eroded over the years.

Some of the links are also interesting, especially that to Migration Watch, where you should find a chart showing how newspaper articles have linked words together in articles over the years: for example continually associating "migrant" with "illegal", so that the pairing creates a sub-conscious assumption that the one invariably implies the other.

If you have the stamina, have a read.

I would also add that the unstated message I took from the whole piece is that in relationship to the political views above, it is not just the "commies and lefties" who are good at screwing up countries. We might be wise to look closer to home, and to recognise the role played by good old fashioned right wing "laissez faire" politics in achieving the same end. See what you think.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 2:50 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 5:57 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!

In 1976 it was part of the Soviet Union which was commonly referred to as "Russia" Brian .........
From wiki......
"Nominally a union of multiple national Soviet republics, its government and economy were highly centralized. The country was a one-party state, governed by the Communist Party with Moscow as its capital in its largest republic, the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (Russian SFSR)."
Judging by Putin's actions he intends to make it part of Russia again .........

Also from Wiki, but on Ukraine:

"The territory of modern Ukraine has been inhabited since 32,000 BC. During the Middle Ages, the area was a key centre of East Slavic culture, with the powerful state of Kievan Rus' forming the basis of Ukrainian identity. Following its fragmentation in the 13th century, the territory was contested, ruled and divided by a variety of powers, including Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Russia. A Cossack republic emerged and prospered during the 17th and 18th centuries, but its territory was eventually split between Poland and the Russian Empire, and finally merged fully into the Russian-dominated Soviet Union in the late 1940s as the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. In 1991 Ukraine gained its independence from the Soviet Union in the aftermath of its dissolution at the end of the Cold War. Before its independence, Ukraine was typically referred to in English as "The Ukraine", but most sources have since moved to drop "the" from the name of Ukraine in all uses."

So, even under the USSR it retained its name, as in "the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic", but never Russia. Just depends when you count from, doesn't it?

Had he visited Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria or GDR in the 70's i'm sure he'd still claim to have "been in" Russia!
userageingandrew
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Just joined

Posts: 17

Location: Hampshire. Hymer B544, 3.0 Auto


Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:02 PM

ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.


Aggregate IQ/Cambridge Analytics supplied a data analytics service to the Leave campaign, you cannot make a claim of “foreign interference” just because they are based in Canada. They were contracted to provide a service for the legitimate Leave campaign. They provided targeted audience analysis and targeted messaging for the legitimate Leave campaign; a far less intrusive messaging campaign than the Government’s which was paid for with tax payers funds when they sent every household in the UK a blatant piece of pro-EU propaganda advising us to vote to remain.

No-one is burying their heads, we can all see what happened and see the dirty tricks used by both sides during the referendum campaign including the “punishment budget” we were all threatened with, the loss of 50,000 jobs straight away and many, many more vile threats designed to browbeat us and frighten us to vote to remain.

Just because you believe fraud was committed does not make it a fact. The electoral commission does not recognise electoral fraud as having happened. The law broken by Leave was to exceed their spending limit, a limit that the electoral commission themselves had misinterpreted, and inaccuracies in reporting.

So many clearly want to believe that “we was robbed”; that democracy has been subverted. Neither of these things are true. In 2016 the UK held its greatest democratic exercise for more than 40 years. More people voted in the referendum than in pretty much any election in the past 40 years. Just because you don’t get what you want does not mean that democracy has been subverted.

The only subversion of democracy will be the UK not leaving the EU as voted on by the majority of UK voters.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:34 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM...…………….Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

So here's the thing. Brexit is hopelessly mired. It is clear that parliament has no majority for any solution to the referendum vote outcome. Therefore, what are the options?

A slim majority of the electorate voted to leave. A substantial minority voted remain.

Those who voted leave voted on the basis of a number of issues, principally national sovereignty, immigration, and border security.

Those who voted remain did so mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause.

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

But, how are those two conflicting views, the one backward looking, the other forward looking, to be reconciled via a compromise all can accept? On present evidence, no such compromise exists, and parliament is demonstrating that. We are stuck in limbo.

Our MPs are not themselves at risk from Brexit: most will retain their seats post Brexit, and of those who lose theirs, the majority will be employed by organisations that expect to benefit from their inside knowledge. Yet the majority of MPs, unaffected by such self-interest, think Brexit a mistake.

Their problem is that they have hooked themselves, first by agreeing to the referendum without thinking through its consequences and planning for a leave vote, again by agreeing to its binary, in-out format, and finally by agreeing to serve notice under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty before the government had presented a worked set of objectives for Brexit. They are all implicated, and all conflicted.

They want to carry out the democratic will of the electorate to leave the EU - while inflicting the minimum of damage on the UK economy. They see no version of Brexit that will benefit the UK economy, so are faced with a quest for the Holy Grail: a formula that satisfies the will to leave, while retaining all the economically beneficial aspects of remaining. To date, the Holy Grail has not been found. They all know that.

Theresa May's "deal" is only about leaving: it does not address UK's post Brexit relationship with the EU at all. All that remains to be negotiated during the transition period. But, that future deal is the most important element of Brexit.

A further referendum seems to me as likely to result in the same result as the first, or merely an equally narrow majority for remain. What then? Same parliament, same MPs. same quandary. No solution.

It is interesting that the leave vote came primarily from disadvantaged parts of the UK. From our northern industrial areas - now de-industrialised, from mining areas - now with no mines, from sea fishing areas - now with restricted quotas, from areas previously with few immigrants, now accommodating large numbers of eastern European migrants.

None of these grievances resulted from the EU, but from UK government failure, over many years, to cushion those areas from the economic and social disadvantages of uncontrolled globalisation, laissez faire politics, and unmanaged migration. They can be remedied by UK governments, but will not be remedied by Brexit - which will merely make that task more difficult.

So, having argued themselves to a standstill, and faced with the unwanted results of an ill-considered referendum that they cannot resolve, what should they do? Leave with no deal, which is almost universally held the most damaging outcome? Accept Theresa's flawed deal with the infamous backstop - to which I think there is no alternative solution? Switch to a Norway type deal with free movement, single market, and customs union? Seek an extension of time - which will probably not be granted?

Or pull the Article 50 notification against a cross party undertaking that those disadvantaged areas will become the first priority of all future governments until remedied, and then hold a further referendum when all areas of the UK can see EU membership through other than the distorting lens of social and economic deprivation.

Will we get to that point? Who knows, but it is at least possible. The eventual outcome, whatever it might be, will still disappoint some: that is inevitable. What it would avoid, however, is the perversity of inflicting economic damage on us all, in order to remedy problems that require a thriving economy to eradicate. Brexit is not fundamentally about the EU, it is about years of failed UK government policy. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?
usermalc d
Posted: 16 February 2019 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM


. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?



Good slogan indeed.

But who on earth would trust either major UK political party to honour it !

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 February 2019 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 5:48 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?

Good slogan indeed.
But who on earth would trust either major UK political party to honour it !

Hobson's choice?
user747
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Instead of arguing about Brexit, why not (for a change) take a close look at the current state of the EU and try to work out what the future holds for it.

There is unrest in numerous member States (for a variety of reasons) and the EU leaders are doing a rerun of the 'Nero attitude' to unrest in the Camp.

It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU. It is called Demoocracy.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:29 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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ageingandrew - 2019-02-16 5:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-15 4:02 PM

ageingandrew - 2019-02-15 11:36 AM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-12 9:13 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-02-08 11:20 AM

Brexit is wrong it was won illegally promoted by a totally right wing press and Tory owned BBC...it is not possible to have considered discussion in relation to Brexit...where do you start....it was fraudulent and nothing can change that, it was won illegally.... the UK Government is corrupt .....the UK is fast becomming a dictatorship and the future is bleak...whatever the outcome of this particular corrupt event the UK will never be the same again. We know those who voted Brexit were lied to but sadly they know it now too but still support the corruption. Treaties and responsibilities are being broken without a thought for the consequences. The Tory Government are happily passing laws which result in the deaths of thousands of people in utter misery, poverty is rife....Victorian diseases realted to poverty have returned to the UK...homelessness is at an all time high with people in wheelchairs being made homeless and dying on the streets, the NHS is being totally destroyed to justify selling it off, hundreds of thousands of children are now living in poverty and temporary accommodation relying on food banks to stave off starvation, but the right wing press and the BBC remain stum......Democracy is dead and will remain so until some level honour is restored aided and a betted by an impartial media who will report the true state of affairs the country is now in.


Get over it ...........

We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market .........



The Electoral Commission found the Leave Campaign guilty of electoral fraud in 2016 and subject ot foreign interference..... NOTHING will change that....a democracy would have immediately declared the Referendum void and re-run it without delay ensuring there was no fraud and no foreign interference...these are facts....whist this remains the case the UK cannot be described as a Democracy and Democracy will not be restored until this fraudulent situation has been addressed........I cannot recall the Referendum of 40 years ago being officially found to be fraudulent!!


Not so and completely wrong. The Electoral commission did not find the Leave campaign guilty of electoral fraud. The electoral commission found them guilty of exceeding spending limits but then admitted that they themselves (the electoral commission) had misinterpreted their own spending rules.

There is no evidence of foreign interference highlighted anywhere in the election commission reports so how you can make such sweeping statements with no evidence is beyond me. As for the rest of this diatribe; un-substantiated nonsense; of utter crap; inane bitching; I really don't know why I have bothered to respond to it.....

But I did.

It makes me wonder whether the 'Remainiacs' would have bitched so much if 'Remain' had won.

Vote Leave and BeLeave were running funding through different accounts, similar to money laundering if you like, and BeLeave spent more than £675,000 with Aggregate IQ under a common plan with Vote Leave. Aggregate IQ is a Canadian company so there's your evidence of 'foreign interference' straight away, part of which was the web intertwined through Cambridge Analytica and SCL.

False declarations were made and that's electoral fraud. You really should have a listen to Chris Whylie's testimony to MP's. Don't be fooled by his outward appearance, that guy worked with CA as a data consultant and is extremely articulate and intelligent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5g6IJm7YJQ&t=19m58s

I'm amazed anyone can still bury their heads over this as the evidence has long been out in the public domain that the Leave campaign actions were a subversion of democracy and quite how anyone can be comfortable with that, i've no idea. As with most Brexiteers you mention "the win" which sadly, appears to be of more importance than valuing and ensuring lawful democracy.


Aggregate IQ/Cambridge Analytics supplied a data analytics service to the Leave campaign, you cannot make a claim of “foreign interference” just because they are based in Canada. They were contracted to provide a service for the legitimate Leave campaign. They provided targeted audience analysis and targeted messaging for the legitimate Leave campaign; a far less intrusive messaging campaign than the Government’s which was paid for with tax payers funds when they sent every household in the UK a blatant piece of pro-EU propaganda advising us to vote to remain.

No-one is burying their heads, we can all see what happened and see the dirty tricks used by both sides during the referendum campaign including the “punishment budget” we were all threatened with, the loss of 50,000 jobs straight away and many, many more vile threats designed to browbeat us and frighten us to vote to remain.

Just because you believe fraud was committed does not make it a fact. The electoral commission does not recognise electoral fraud as having happened. The law broken by Leave was to exceed their spending limit, a limit that the electoral commission themselves had misinterpreted, and inaccuracies in reporting.

So many clearly want to believe that “we was robbed”; that democracy has been subverted. Neither of these things are true. In 2016 the UK held its greatest democratic exercise for more than 40 years. More people voted in the referendum than in pretty much any election in the past 40 years. Just because you don’t get what you want does not mean that democracy has been subverted.

The only subversion of democracy will be the UK not leaving the EU as voted on by the majority of UK voters.

I suggest you hear out what Chris Wylie had to say who worked for Cambridge Analytica and gave a very thorough insight into the web CA was involved in which was far reaching. If you don't want to sit through the testimony he gave to the DCMS committee hearing then at least have a listen to a shorter interview he gave to C4 news.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jjc_7BWq84

Also Shahmir Sanni, a Brexit campaign worker who witnessed first hand the cheating involved and diversion of fundings. He reported the matter to the EC......and ended up with his sexuality being publicly "outed" by Stephen Parkinson, May's political secretary at the time. Parkinson denied "outing" Sanni but Parkinson’s words sparked condemnation from former Vote Leave staffers with one saying, “I’ve lost complete respect for Stephen Parkinson. His antics are inexcusable and my sympathies are with Shahmir Sanni.” Downing street refused to comment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ0bFAgTGwk

The subversion of democracy is crystal clear to me in that we all know the referendum was not run or conducted in accordance to electoral law. Whilst some acknowledge that fact, others prefer to remain in a permanent state of denial. I'm fully aware of dodgy dealings and electoral interference in other countries, mainly third world and/or regimes with dictatorships, so never imagined such could ever become possible in this country and find it extremely difficult witnessing the catastrophic damage it's done and continuing to do. The lies and disinformation used to push the Brexit agenda are all well documented and cannot be ignored. Even had i voted Brexit, i personally would not be comfortable with all the duplicity and shenanigans on my conscience. You obviously are but the consequences of your actions will certainly come back to haunt you though i suspect it won't bother you until it affects you personally. I look beyond that and see other peoples livelihoods being impacted because this isn't about me....it's about the future and welfare of others, those less well off, those facing uncertainty over their jobs just to name a few points.
usermalc d
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:46 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Posts: 7504
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747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.

user747
Posted: 16 February 2019 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Edited by 747 2019-02-16 7:58 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 2:41 PM

Tracker - 2019-02-14 4:43 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-14 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-14 8:56 AM...…………………...How much would you like to bet that I wasn't on HMS Devonshire when she visited Odessa in Russia in 1976 ?

Er, its in Ukraine, Dave. Not another of those embarrassing navy lark errors, surely!


I doubt the Russians saw it that way Brian?

Left hand down a bit!

Yes, but I bet the Ukrainians did! It'd be like telling a Welshman that Wales is part of England, wouldn't it? I'll get me own coat!


(Daily Telegraph May 24th 1976.)
The Guided Missile Destroyer HMS Devonshire, which sailed yesterday from Malta for Odessa on the first Royal Naval visit to a ***Russian port*** in ten years, will in one sense be carrying on where she left off.
It was the Devonshire which made the last visit to a ***Russian port.*** This was to Leningrad with Admiral Sir John Frewen.
The latest visit – which is timed to begin at the same moment as the Soviet Cruiser Obraztsovy arrives in Portsmouth on Friday – was arranged by Mr Callaghan and Mr Gromyko in March.
The Devonshire will fly the flag of Admiral Anthony Morton, Flag Officer of the First Flotilla, who as a junior officer took part in convoys to Mumansk.

As I said Brian ..........

In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.



Rubbish........You voted for the status quo ........

I cant see much future prosperity from the EU seeing as our exports to them have dropped every year for the last 9 years ...........

If we want to properly prosper we need to get rid of expensive overheads like the EU ..........

userFast Pat
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fasc

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.


Ah that old myth?

Given the profound differences between a Nazi-occupied Europe and the European Union, how do we explain the enduring appeal of this comparison?

First of all, it is a simple expression of anxiety about a thriving Germany being the strongest economic and political power in Europe. In much of southern Europe, associating Angela Merkel’s calls for unpopular austerity measures, particularly in Greece, with Nazi dictates is a convenient way to attempt to discredit the policies. Taking the historical example of German dominance of Europe under Hitler and likening it to the economic and political clout of Germany today is easy, but ultimately unhelpful. It should be remembered that European integration began as a French initiative meant in part to strengthen France’s place in the world by harnessing the German economy, thus lending greater volume to France’s voice on the international stage. The fact that Germany has displaced France as the largest economic and political force in Europe is more a testament to the flexibility of the structure of the EU.

The enduring appeal of this myth in Britain is in large part due to that fact that it plays on public perceptions of the country’s experience in the Second World War. Talk of Hitler harks back to Britain’s finest hour, when Britain, so the national narrative goes, was able to defeat the Nazis that had overrun Britain’s continental allies, thanks to the strength of Britain’s national character, its empire, and its special relationship with the US. This rhetorical flourish concludes that today Britain ought to stand outside of Europe, as it did during the Second World War, and is accompanied by appeals to the “special relationship” – and even the Commonwealth – to prop up Britain’s power.

Such proposals are anachronistic and unrealistic. While its empire and its navy once gave Britain the status of a superpower, the political reality today is that Britain’s voice on the international stage is significantly amplified by its mambership of the EU. Labelling the EU as the fruit of Nazi projects may be a roundabout way of stoking up national pride, but the actual desired outcome – opposing the EU from the outside – would be disastrous for Britain.

There are indeed many legitimate grounds for criticising the EU. The EU’s policies since the eruption of the Eurozone crisis have often lacked vision and have weakened support for the EU in many member states. There is a troubling disconnect between the seemingly distant and arcane institutions of the EU and the everyday concerns of its 500 million citizens.

Even some of the historical assertions meant to legitimise the EU are questionable – the EU’s claim to have prevented war in Europe since 1945 consciously ignores the decisive role played by the superpowers and the context of the Cold War.

Nevertheless, the suggestion that today’s EU is in any way modelled on Nazi plans for Europe, or indeed that the Nazis had any plans for the continent resembling today’s EU, is fallacious and misleading. Instead of blaming the EU’s problems on some nebulous link to a Nazi past, the debate should instead focus constructively on how to solve the existing problems facing the EU and its member states – without resorting to labelling one's opponents as Nazis.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



I dunno.............I reckon us UKIP voters managed to get Cameron to have the referendum .........



userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-16 8:50 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:07 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 February 2019 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 9:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.


"A number of EU countries already grumble about Germany’s growing dominance."

https://www.politico.eu/article/what-germany-wants-angela-merkel-european-commission-presidency/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/922404/german-power-grab-eu-martin-selmayr-european-commission-brexit

.........perhaps you should try taking your EU blinkers off ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 February 2019 10:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:42 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 9:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM



It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.


It is called Demoocracy.



I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.

Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.



It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;

https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth

Just seen FP already quoted.


The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........

It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Is that the best you can counter with.....a couple of tweet like assumptions with zero factual evidence? At least i'd expect to read a few paragraphs. Put a bit more effort into your bleating.


"A number of EU countries already grumble about Germany’s growing dominance."
.........perhaps you should try taking your EU blinkers off ........

Germany is the largest contributor to EU funding of all 28 members. UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding you now want to end, including that of vital medical research which is utterly disgraceful. You lot should be forced to pay for that alone through the most punitive taxation possible and for sure, those who've sought to drag us into this unholy mess must now be held to account for their actions.

Whilst we Remain voters recognise the EU is not 100% perfection (what organisation is?), at least by having a seat at the table we had a voice. We also knew where we were as an EU member state. Brexiters never had an exit strategy and had no clue at all what to do or where they were going after the referendum....in fact those who'd shouted loudly about it, all ran off.

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 7:43 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding



More FAKE NEWS ..............

The UK has received a little bit of OUR MONEY back .............

userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 8:00 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.


Germany's GDP dropped from 2.2% in 2017 to 1.5% in 2018

Britain's GDP dropped from 1.8% in 2017 to 1.4% in 2018

So if a loss of 2% of GDP is plunging?....... What would you call Germany's?..........

Bombing? .......



userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:05 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


Fast Pat - 2019-02-16 8:28 PM

747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fasc

While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.

They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).

Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading.

http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf

It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.


Ah that old myth?

Given the profound differences between a Nazi-occupied Europe and the European Union, how do we explain the enduring appeal of this comparison?

First of all, it is a simple expression of anxiety about a thriving Germany being the strongest economic and political power in Europe. In much of southern Europe, associating Angela Merkel’s calls for unpopular austerity measures, particularly in Greece, with Nazi dictates is a convenient way to attempt to discredit the policies. Taking the historical example of German dominance of Europe under Hitler and likening it to the economic and political clout of Germany today is easy, but ultimately unhelpful. It should be remembered that European integration began as a French initiative meant in part to strengthen France’s place in the world by harnessing the German economy, thus lending greater volume to France’s voice on the international stage. The fact that Germany has displaced France as the largest economic and political force in Europe is more a testament to the flexibility of the structure of the EU.

The enduring appeal of this myth in Britain is in large part due to that fact that it plays on public perceptions of the country’s experience in the Second World War. Talk of Hitler harks back to Britain’s finest hour, when Britain, so the national narrative goes, was able to defeat the Nazis that had overrun Britain’s continental allies, thanks to the strength of Britain’s national character, its empire, and its special relationship with the US. This rhetorical flourish concludes that today Britain ought to stand outside of Europe, as it did during the Second World War, and is accompanied by appeals to the “special relationship” – and even the Commonwealth – to prop up Britain’s power.

Such proposals are anachronistic and unrealistic. While its empire and its navy once gave Britain the status of a superpower, the political reality today is that Britain’s voice on the international stage is significantly amplified by its mambership of the EU. Labelling the EU as the fruit of Nazi projects may be a roundabout way of stoking up national pride, but the actual desired outcome – opposing the EU from the outside – would be disastrous for Britain.

There are indeed many legitimate grounds for criticising the EU. The EU’s policies since the eruption of the Eurozone crisis have often lacked vision and have weakened support for the EU in many member states. There is a troubling disconnect between the seemingly distant and arcane institutions of the EU and the everyday concerns of its 500 million citizens.

Even some of the historical assertions meant to legitimise the EU are questionable – the EU’s claim to have prevented war in Europe since 1945 consciously ignores the decisive role played by the superpowers and the context of the Cold War.

Nevertheless, the suggestion that today’s EU is in any way modelled on Nazi plans for Europe, or indeed that the Nazis had any plans for the continent resembling today’s EU, is fallacious and misleading. Instead of blaming the EU’s problems on some nebulous link to a Nazi past, the debate should instead focus constructively on how to solve the existing problems facing the EU and its member states – without resorting to labelling one's opponents as Nazis.

Apologies for repeating the whole lot just to say good post, but it needs the lot for context. Spot on!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:27 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

Rubbish........You voted for the status quo ........
I cant see much future prosperity from the EU seeing as our exports to them have dropped every year for the last 9 years ...........
If we want to properly prosper we need to get rid of expensive overheads like the EU ..........

But you forger Dave, that the status quo extends into future.

Neither you, nor any other proponents of Brexit have ever, to my knowledge, explained what the post Brexit future of the UK would be.

You and the other Brexiters voted against the flawed image you have gained from the sources you choose to read and believe.

Compered to what we have now, what would we lose were we to remain the EU, and what actual benefits will leaving now bring? Where are the imperatives? Why the rush? Why now?
userageingandrew
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Just joined

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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 5:34 PM
So here's the thing. Brexit is hopelessly mired. It is clear that parliament has no majority for any solution to the referendum vote outcome. Therefore, what are the options?

A slim majority of the electorate voted to leave. A substantial minority voted remain.

Those who voted leave voted on the basis of a number of issues, principally national sovereignty, immigration, and border security.

Those who voted remain did so mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause.

In effect, leave voted against the EU, while remain voted for future prosperity.

...
Brexit is not fundamentally about the EU, it is about years of failed UK government policy. Bin Brexit and fix the UK. Good slogan?


Hello Brian,

Brexit is mired because of Parliament wanting to obstruct instead of construct and a PM who is not capable of working in a cooperative manner. This is evidenced by the dreadful deal she directed her negotiating team to bring back to us, a deal that can only be described as an unconditional surrender; a deal that was properly rejected by the Commons.
David Cameron tried to get us a better deal throughout 2014/15, but he failed. At the time the UK was soaking up a lot of EU unemployment from Spain, Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria and France and of course those countries did not want their citizens to be denied access to the UK jobs market so refused him permission to ‘control our own borders’. This was a clear demonstration of how much sovereignty we had lost over the decades and that the EU was incapable of reform.

We had a referendum because it was generally accepted that Parliament was not representative of the people. The referendum result proved that to be true.

I totally disagree with your statement that “remain voters voted mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause”. I believe that remain voters voted against leave, against the buffoon Johnson, against Gove and others.
The remain campaign failed miserably to paint a compelling picture or vision of why the UK should remain in the EU and that is why they lost.

However, we are where we are. Yes, Brexit is about years of failed UK government policy, but UK government policy will not be fixed by staying in the EU.

Extending article 50 or holding a further referendum would be admissions that democracy will be subverted by Remain who will continue to sow fear, uncertainty, doubt and hyperbole in order to scare citizens into voting their way.

May’s team have negotiated a dreadful deal and should not be given a second chance. The EU negotiators have put the UK is a dreadful position, however with EU elections coming up at the end of May they may well have blotted their own copybook. Their negotiating stance will seriously impede Ireland which currently spends 50% of its tax income on servicing its debt. Any reduction in tax income as a result of no deal will send the Irish economy into a tail spin and subsequently a nose dive. Ireland will require a bail out exceeding €80billion as a direct result of Barnier/Tusk/Junkers policy of punishing the UK.

There is only one option now on the table that does not subvert democracy and that is to head towards the 29th March without a deal and then negotiate other deals with France, with Spain afterwards.

A better slogan is "Deliver Brexit and then fix the UK".

Regards
Andrew
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-16 9:07 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 8:46 PM
747 - 2019-02-16 7:56 PM
malc d - 2019-02-16 7:46 PM
747 - 2019-02-16 7:16 PM
It is correct to say that both major British Political Parties are a complete shambles ..... but they will change if they realise that it will prevent them from being elected ..... and there we have it in a nutshell .... that is the difference between the UK and the EU.
It is called Demoocracy.

I would suggest that the UK is only seen as democratic by people who vote Labour or Tory.
Try voting for anyone else and see how much representation you get in Westminster.

It is not perfect but far better than Communism or Fascism.
While on the subject of Fascism, it would seem that Britain has many Fascist supporters ..... albeit not knowing that they are supporters of Fascism because they have been duped.
They are pro EU and it seems that the notion of an EU was first discussed in Berlin in 1942. I don't need to remind you who was in power in Germany in 1942 and who had plans for a Europe controlled by one entity (actually it was two because Italy was also to have a say in running Europe).
Here is a copy of the first EU planning document, translated into English. It is a long document but makes interesting reading. http://www.bilderberg.org/EWG.pdf
It now appears that our rampant Socialists on here are actually rampant something else Mein Herr.

Lol that old chestnut.....when all else fails, invoke Godwins law! The sure sign of rabid anti-EU pro-Brexiteers who have tried this on others forums. You'd best get up to speed and read this;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/lucandr%C3%A9-brunet/is-eu-nazi-project-debunking-enduring-myth
Just seen FP already quoted.

The German European agenda is the same........Its only the method that has changed ........
It's pretty obvious the EU and the Euro are there for the benefit of one nation .........

Well, they certainly didn't think so at the time. They wanted to keep the Deutsche Mark. How odd.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 17 February 2019 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


500050005000100010010010010025
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


ageingandrew - 2019-02-17 11:32 AM……………………….
Hello Brian,

1 Brexit is mired because of Parliament wanting to obstruct instead of construct and a PM who is not capable of working in a cooperative manner. This is evidenced by the dreadful deal she directed her negotiating team to bring back to us, a deal that can only be described as an unconditional surrender; a deal that was properly rejected by the Commons.

I don't think it is reasonable to say parliament wants to "do" anything. It has no collective view, as is evident from the various votes - except that it is unhappy with the May deal.

I don't think it reasonable to say that May "directed" her team to bring back that deal. The deal was what they could negotiate, given the brief they were handed. Unconditional surrender is a bit hyperbolic: it was what was possible. There might have been a better deal if the team had been given clear, attainable, objectives, but they were not. The main sticking point is the so-called Irish backstop, which is/was/should have been the visible stumbling block from the outset. Brexit, with no solution to the NI/Ireland border is, basically, undeliverable.

2 David Cameron tried to get us a better deal throughout 2014/15, but he failed. At the time the UK was soaking up a lot of EU unemployment from Spain, Greece, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria and France and of course those countries did not want their citizens to be denied access to the UK jobs market so refused him permission to ‘control our own borders’. This was a clear demonstration of how much sovereignty we had lost over the decades and that the EU was incapable of reform.

Yes, we were taking large numbers of migrants, but that was not Cameron's call, It was Blair's - when he failed to impose the same delay on migration rights for new entrants as had been adopted by the rest of the other members. Only UK left its doors wide open. It was a situation Cameron could not reverse. However, he could have applied the existing rules from that point on, but did not. Why? This was not punishment, it was simply the status quo.

3 We had a referendum because it was generally accepted that Parliament was not representative of the people. The referendum result proved that to be true.

Not, I think, because parliament was not representative of the people, but because the Conservatives were losing votes to UKIP, and agreeing to the referendum was seen as the way to get the votes back. From a Conservative, but not a national, standpoint, that view was vindicated by the result of the 2015 election that saw UKIP wiped out and an overall Conservative majority.

4 I totally disagree with your statement that “remain voters voted mainly on the basis of the damage to the UK economy that Brexit seemed most likely to cause”. I believe that remain voters voted against leave, against the buffoon Johnson, against Gove and others.

I can only answer for myself, and those I know, but on that basis, your belief is wrong. Our vote was in favour of membership, because we believe, based on the evidence provided, that remain represents the best overall outcome for the UK. What has emerged since the referendum has only served to reinforce that view, which is that Brexit, if it happens, will prove damaging to the UK economy, resulting in growing demands for government spending alongside falling tax revenues that, together, will result in increasing public borrowing and/or growing hardship for those whose livelihoods are affected by Brexit.

5 The remain campaign failed miserably to paint a compelling picture or vision of why the UK should remain in the EU and that is why they lost.

Agreed, but that does not make it wrong, just not as well organised, and I would say, despite the appalling campaign on both sides, somewhat more honest in its claims.

6 However, we are where we are. Yes, Brexit is about years of failed UK government policy, but UK government policy will not be fixed by staying in the EU.

Agreed, any more than it will be fixed by leaving. However, the impact on the economy from Brexit will make realising those policies more difficult, because they will inevitably require substantial spending, and the money for that spending will not be there..

7 Extending article 50 or holding a further referendum would be admissions that democracy will be subverted by Remain who will continue to sow fear, uncertainty, doubt and hyperbole in order to scare citizens into voting their way.

It has to be understood and accepted that democracy is not a single event at a single point in time. Were it so, it could not be democracy. Continuing to campaign for change to benefit the majority of one's compatriots is hardly undemocratic. Where is the democracy in saying we won, you lost, and the result must stand unchallenged in perpetuity?

8 May’s team have negotiated a dreadful deal and should not be given a second chance. The EU negotiators have put the UK is a dreadful position, however with EU elections coming up at the end of May they may well have blotted their own copybook. Their negotiating stance will seriously impede Ireland which currently spends 50% of its tax income on servicing its debt. Any reduction in tax income as a result of no deal will send the Irish economy into a tail spin and subsequently a nose dive. Ireland will require a bail out exceeding €80billion as a direct result of Barnier/Tusk/Junkers policy of punishing the UK.

Then I fail to understand how, recognising that impact, and presumably in the knowledge of the Belfast Agreement requirements, plus those of the Common Travel Area, plus the EU's normal requirement for security of its external border, you can reach the following conclusion.

There is only one option now on the table that does not subvert democracy and that is to head towards the 29th March without a deal and then negotiate other deals with France, with Spain afterwards.

A better slogan is "Deliver Brexit and then fix the UK".

Regards
Andrew

Were we to do that, we could not subsequently negotiate such trade deals with France, Spain, etc - because they are in the EU - so the only way to get those deals will be to negotiate them with the EU.

We would also, by common consensus, inflict on ourselves the largest economic hit of all yet identified versions of Brexit.

How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 February 2019 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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pelmetman - 2019-02-17 7:43 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding



More FAKE NEWS ..............

The UK has received a little bit of OUR MONEY back .............

You're beginning to get as tiresome as your little snowflake friend crying and wailing "fake news" every time you read something you don't like, so its time you began backing up your claims with some evidence. Simply saying "a little bit" is totally meaningless and just idle conjecture. Post up accounts showing all EU funding into UK since membership, businesses, buildings, universities, research etc etc. That should keep you busy for a few weeks.


pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:00 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.


Germany's GDP dropped from 2.2% in 2017 to 1.5% in 2018

Britain's GDP dropped from 1.8% in 2017 to 1.4% in 2018

So if a loss of 2% of GDP is plunging?....... What would you call Germany's?..........

Bombing? .......

A loss of 0.7% and just 0.2% between theirs and ours. Not bad given the vast amount industry they have compared to ours, most of which has been sold off including huge chunks of our infrastructure now owned by errrr.....well, countries you don't "like" such as Germany, France and Netherlands. This is what you Brexiteers call "taking back control", right? Are you going to start buying it all back?

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 11:05 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.

Yeah Odessa is miles away from Russia but seeing a Ruski flag on a ship was enough to convince Pelmet he had "been in" [Russia] !! Good job that Navy lark kept him mopping the decks and didn't let him loose with a map! And to think he was let loose driving a bus....it must have been a miracle any passengers got to the right destination! Easy to see why he ended up making puffs and pelmets!!
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 4:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 7:43 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding



More FAKE NEWS ..............

The UK has received a little bit of OUR MONEY back .............

You're beginning to get as tiresome as your little snowflake friend crying and wailing "fake news" every time you read something you don't like, so its time you began backing up your claims with some evidence. Simply saying "a little bit" is totally meaningless and just idle conjecture. Post up accounts showing all EU funding into UK since membership, businesses, buildings, universities, research etc etc. That should keep you busy for a few weeks.


pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:00 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.


Germany's GDP dropped from 2.2% in 2017 to 1.5% in 2018

Britain's GDP dropped from 1.8% in 2017 to 1.4% in 2018

So if a loss of 2% of GDP is plunging?....... What would you call Germany's?..........

Bombing? .......

A loss of 0.7% and just 0.2% between theirs and ours. Not bad given the vast amount industry they have compared to ours, most of which has been sold off including huge chunks of our infrastructure now owned by errrr.....well, countries you don't "like" such as Germany, France and Netherlands. This is what you Brexiteers call "taking back control", right? Are you going to start buying it all back?

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 11:05 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.

Yeah Odessa is miles away from Russia but seeing a Ruski flag on a ship was enough to convince Pelmet he had "been in" [Russia] !! Good job that Navy lark kept him mopping the decks and didn't let him loose with a map! And to think he was let loose driving a bus....it must have been a miracle any passengers got to the right destination! Easy to see why he ended up making puffs and pelmets!!


Damn your thick Bullet .......

You are so seriously stupid you cant see past your own racist xenophobia .......

userteflon2
Posted: 17 February 2019 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
Pillar of the forums

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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-16 2:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-13 8:57 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-13 8:38 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-09 1:29 PM...…………..
We were lied to 40 odd years ago when we were told we could join a Common Market ......…

It is strange that such a serious minded and precocious youth failed to read the papers in 1973, and remained unaware of the nature of the European Economic Community (AKA the Common Market), it origins, and the changes it had already made. We did join, though, so what was the actual lie? Could that now mature youth point to it?


That precocious youth has become a belligerent Brexiteer after 46 years experience of EU membership ...........

So there was no lie: you were told you could join a Common Market, and you did.




We were lied to by omission we were deceived by a surreptitious design to build a central federal European government, as is obvious the present EU bears no similarity to the common market we were led to believe was the objective.of the vote.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 8:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 11:05 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.


Yeah Brian like you were there .......

So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .......

How desperate you Remoaners have become ..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 17 February 2019 8:42 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-17 6:52 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 4:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 7:43 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

UK has benefited from huge amounts of EU funding



More FAKE NEWS ..............

The UK has received a little bit of OUR MONEY back .............

You're beginning to get as tiresome as your little snowflake friend crying and wailing "fake news" every time you read something you don't like, so its time you began backing up your claims with some evidence. Simply saying "a little bit" is totally meaningless and just idle conjecture. Post up accounts showing all EU funding into UK since membership, businesses, buildings, universities, research etc etc. That should keep you busy for a few weeks.


pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:00 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-16 10:54 PM

So far your lunacy has cost the UK £80 billion......£800 million a week every week with an economy you claim as "ticking over nicely" plunging to a loss of 2% GDP.


Germany's GDP dropped from 2.2% in 2017 to 1.5% in 2018

Britain's GDP dropped from 1.8% in 2017 to 1.4% in 2018

So if a loss of 2% of GDP is plunging?....... What would you call Germany's?..........

Bombing? .......

A loss of 0.7% and just 0.2% between theirs and ours. Not bad given the vast amount industry they have compared to ours, most of which has been sold off including huge chunks of our infrastructure now owned by errrr.....well, countries you don't "like" such as Germany, France and Netherlands. This is what you Brexiteers call "taking back control", right? Are you going to start buying it all back?

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 11:05 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-16 8:19 PM.........…..In 1976 the USSR was commonly known as RUSSIA...... even the Daily Telegraph thought so ...........

To which there is an eminently simple answer: the Telegraph was wrong.

Russia and the USSR were not the same thing, and Ukraine, as I pointed out above was, at that time, the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.

All the Telegraph did was dumb-down the distinction, to assist its average cold war era reader.

Had you been on the Leningrad (now once more St Petersberg) trip in October 1966, you would have been to Russia, but you were on the Odessa trip, and you actually went to Ukraine (then the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic), which was part of the Soviet block, but not part of Russia.

Claiming Ukraine was, or ever has been, part of Russia, is just geographic illiteracy.

Yeah Odessa is miles away from Russia but seeing a Ruski flag on a ship was enough to convince Pelmet he had "been in" [Russia] !! Good job that Navy lark kept him mopping the decks and didn't let him loose with a map! And to think he was let loose driving a bus....it must have been a miracle any passengers got to the right destination! Easy to see why he ended up making puffs and pelmets!!


Damn your thick Bullet .......

You are so seriously stupid you cant see past your own racist xenophobia .......

I'm afraid none of that silly outburst will ever put Odessa in Russia......no matter how hard you try. You could always print the map out i showed you, take some scissors to cut around Odessa, then stick it over the border of Russia which is clearly marked....if that makes you happy.

Have you got working on those figures i asked you to post up or was that yet another example of your nonsensical waffle and conjecture you can't give citation to? Oh, and when do you intend to start buying back all the rail stock owned by Germany, France and Netherlands? Assuming they will sell that is. This "taking back control" isn't going so well is it? Yet another example of something not thought through before making silly soundbites.
userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 8:42 PM

I'm afraid none of that silly outburst will ever put Odessa in Russia......


So who was in control of Ukraine/Odessa in 1976? .......

I'll give you a clue......Its a 6 letter word.....starts with M and ends in W .......



userpelmetman
Posted: 17 February 2019 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 12:54 PM

How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?


See! .......

There you go being all negative again ........

The numbers are on the Irish side .......

So any problems will be their problems.......as May has already said the UK wouldn't put up a border ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 17 February 2019 10:28 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 8:42 PM

I'm afraid none of that silly outburst will ever put Odessa in Russia......


So who was in control of Ukraine/Odessa in 1976? .......

I'll give you a clue......Its a 6 letter word.....starts with M and ends in W .......

And that STILL does NOT put Odessa "in Russia" you clown. It's the equivalent of claiming Sofia to be "in Russia" during the 70's which is what you've been trying to do with Odessa!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 February 2019 7:41 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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teflon2 - 2019-02-17 6:55 PM.............................We were lied to by omission we were deceived by a surreptitious design to build a central federal European government, as is obvious the present EU bears no similarity to the common market we were led to believe was the objective.of the vote.

Pure paranoia. By the time you had that vote, you had been in the EEC since 1 Jan 1973. Are you really saying that you voted in June 1975 without gaining any understanding of what the EEC was? What stopped you? There was ample information available at the time. The papers were full of analysis of what it was, its history, and its pros and cons. From your comment above, it seems you still haven't looked at it in the round, and have only taken on board selectively misleading reportage.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 February 2019 7:55 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?

Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?

Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 February 2019 8:01 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-17 9:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 12:54 PM
How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?

See! .......
There you go being all negative again ........
The numbers are on the Irish side .......
So any problems will be their problems.......as May has already said the UK wouldn't put up a border ......

From the man who feels positive, but has just moved Odessa and Portsmouth to Russia! Now, why would I take your word on Ireland as well, Dave? There are two conditions under which there won't be a hard border between NI and Ireland. 1 We stay in the EU. 2 Ireland re-unifies and the border shifts to the Irish Sea. Anything else is just Odessa/Portsmouth thinking!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?

Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?

Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!


The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........

Not the Ukraine ......

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html



userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 8:01 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 9:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 12:54 PM
How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?

See! .......
There you go being all negative again ........
The numbers are on the Irish side .......
So any problems will be their problems.......as May has already said the UK wouldn't put up a border ......

From the man who feels positive, but has just moved Odessa and Portsmouth to Russia! Now, why would I take your word on Ireland as well, Dave? There are two conditions under which there won't be a hard border between NI and Ireland. 1 We stay in the EU. 2 Ireland re-unifies and the border shifts to the Irish Sea. Anything else is just Odessa/Portsmouth thinking!


You forgot 3........NI has a referendum and they vote to unite with Ireland ...........Problem solved .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 9:05 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 10:28 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-17 8:42 PM

I'm afraid none of that silly outburst will ever put Odessa in Russia......


So who was in control of Ukraine/Odessa in 1976? .......

I'll give you a clue......Its a 6 letter word.....starts with M and ends in W .......

And that STILL does NOT put Odessa "in Russia" you clown. It's the equivalent of claiming Sofia to be "in Russia" during the 70's which is what you've been trying to do with Odessa!


The Ukraine was part of the USSR and controlled from Moscow..........even you should remember that Comrade ............

Odessa was home to the Russian Black Sea Fleet.........Not the Ukrainian navy.......because they didn't have one ..........

usermalc d
Posted: 18 February 2019 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 8:01 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 9:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 12:54 PM
How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?

See! .......
There you go being all negative again ........
The numbers are on the Irish side .......
So any problems will be their problems.......as May has already said the UK wouldn't put up a border ......

From the man who feels positive, but has just moved Odessa and Portsmouth to Russia! Now, why would I take your word on Ireland as well, Dave? There are two conditions under which there won't be a hard border between NI and Ireland. 1 We stay in the EU. 2 Ireland re-unifies and the border shifts to the Irish Sea.

Anything else is just Odessa/Portsmouth thinking!




This discussion reminds me of the days of the British Empire

when India was in England.



Edited by malc d 2019-02-18 9:46 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 February 2019 10:10 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-18 9:00 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?
Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?
Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!

The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........
Not the Ukraine ......
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html

Quite, but it still left Odessa in Ukraine (a country) and not in Russia (a different country). Political gestures do not alter physical geography. It was goodwill at a safe distance, in someone else's back yard. I note they didn't invite you to Severomorsk - can't imagine why!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 10:45 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 10:10 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-18 9:00 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?
Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?
Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!

The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........
Not the Ukraine ......
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html

Quite, but it still left Odessa in Ukraine (a country) and not in Russia (a different country). Political gestures do not alter physical geography. It was goodwill at a safe distance, in someone else's back yard. I note they didn't invite you to Severomorsk - can't imagine why!


The geography is irrelevant as Ukraine was part of the USSR which as you can see from the news reports at the time was commonly referred to as RUSSIA ..........

Using your argument if the Russian ship had visited Rosyth instead, it would have been on a goodwill visit to Scotland ......Not Britain .........



userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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malc d - 2019-02-18 9:44 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 8:01 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-17 9:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-17 12:54 PM
How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?

See! .......
There you go being all negative again ........
The numbers are on the Irish side .......
So any problems will be their problems.......as May has already said the UK wouldn't put up a border ......

From the man who feels positive, but has just moved Odessa and Portsmouth to Russia! Now, why would I take your word on Ireland as well, Dave? There are two conditions under which there won't be a hard border between NI and Ireland. 1 We stay in the EU. 2 Ireland re-unifies and the border shifts to the Irish Sea.

Anything else is just Odessa/Portsmouth thinking!




This discussion reminds me of the days of the British Empire

when India was in England.



If you went to Brick Lane in London you could be forgiven for thinking it still is .........

userViolet1956
Posted: 18 February 2019 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


2000500100252525


Brick Lane has a Bangladeshi community Dave. You're understanding of geography appears to be pre-1947 which is strange given your time as a matelot.
userageingandrew
Posted: 18 February 2019 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Hello Brian,

Teresa May is responsible for the deal that was presented to Parliament. She managed the negotiating team, she presented the deal to Parliament. It's her deal.

The migration aspect was only a flag to demonstrate how far we had gone from being a sovereign state, it demonstrated that Blair/Major etc had given away so much sovereignty that (for example) the PM of Bulgaria had more influence in how we controlled our borders that had the UK PM.


I can only answer for myself, and those I know, but on that basis, your belief is wrong. Our vote was in favour of membership, because we believe, based on the evidence provided, that remain represents the best overall outcome for the UK. What has emerged since the referendum has only served to reinforce that view, which is that Brexit, if it happens, will prove damaging to the UK economy, resulting in growing demands for government spending alongside falling tax revenues that, together, will result in increasing public borrowing and/or growing hardship for those whose livelihoods are affected by Brexit.


I'm sorry Brian, no evidence whatsoever was provided. Instead gossip, rumours and good old 'Groupthink' presented by project fear abounded and still does, none of it having any real basis of fact. Take for example the statements that the NHS will run short of drugs post-Brexit. In France today some pharmacies are running short of drugs. Not because of Brexit but because they import more than 60% of their drugs from the US and China, drugs which are priced on the open market and it is their rising prices that are leading to shortages in France. We also import around 60% of our drugs from the US and China, but no doubt the remain camp will blame Brexit for any shortages.

Look at our economic numbers for the past 2 years; UK employment has never been higher; the economy continues to grow. The UK stock market continues to improve following the US-China tariff disputes that disrupted it late last year.

You use the words 'belief' and 'believe'. Belief without any factual basis is nothing more than silly superstition. How anyone can believe that membership of a political union based on subsidised prices and protectionism is essential for our countries prosperity is beyond me.


However, the impact on the economy from Brexit will make realising those policies more difficult, because they will inevitably require substantial spending, and the money for that spending will not be there.


What impact on the economy? We continually hear 'Despite Brexit' and 'impact on the economy' yet where are the figures. No facts are presented for us to analyse. Once again I put all statements like 'impact on the economy' down to poorly informed 'groupthink' as there are no facts.


Then I fail to understand how, recognising that impact, and presumably in the knowledge of the Belfast Agreement requirements, plus those of the Common Travel Area, plus the EU's normal requirement for security of its external border, you can reach the following conclusion.

There is only one option now on the table that does not subvert democracy and that is to head towards the 29th March without a deal and then negotiate other deals with France, with Spain afterwards.

A better slogan is "Deliver Brexit and then fix the UK".

Regards
Andrew

Were we to do that, we could not subsequently negotiate such trade deals with France, Spain, etc - because they are in the EU - so the only way to get those deals will be to negotiate them with the EU.

We would also, by common consensus, inflict on ourselves the largest economic hit of all yet identified versions of Brexit.

How is shoot ourselves in both feet, shoot Ireland in the bank, and risk resurrecting irish terrorism, all at a stroke, a good solution, for democracy or anything? I have to say this doctrine seems to me self-destructive. Have I misunderstood?


The Irish border is an interesting subject. UK negotiators have repeatedly stated that customs checks will be made miles from the border without the need for border infrastructure. The EU has repeatedly poo-pood these ideas. It is not the resurgence of Irish terrorism, car bombs on the streets of Belfast, Omagh and Armagh that frightens the EU; no, it is the loss of integrity of the single market that really scares them. They will not open the market to cheaper wines, beef etc.
The threats of Irish terrorism is a disgraceful and truly shocking scare tactic which will only happen in the EU insists on building their wall where there doesn't need to be a wall.

On the subject of trade deals. No one needs a trade deal to trade. We trade with the US without a deal, we trade with Chile without a deal, JC, we even trade with North Korea without a deal. We will not need a trade deal to buy French wine or German cars.

This posting started off titled 'The demise of Democracy' and I felt angered by what I read and felt that I had to reply to the OP. However, I've slowly come round to his way of thinking, that democracy in this country is in decline; it is so easily corrupted and polluted by vested interests able to scare the living daylights out of citizens into voting for something that is not in their interest.
We see project fear doing this every day with their 'impact on the economy', 'resurgence of Irish terrorism', 'despite Brexit', 'far-right populists','Brits can't travel to Europe' and numerous other unsubstantiated and downright incorrect statements and stories. We see vested interests telling us that we have to hoard food because we're all going to starve, that there will be no-one left to care for us when all the EU migrants return home. All of these stories are just that - stories.

Brexit was always going to be very hard for us. The EU does not want Brexit to be a success, the UE will lose €20Bn a year in income; EU influence in the world is reduced, the EU outlook on the world is more myopic and they will become more protectionist. The EU cannot let us go with a good deal and encourage others' to Exit, EU flags were burned in Paris on Saturday.
If we leave with no-deal on the 29th March, I have no doubt Junker et al will be heading to London in the following days to agree a trade deal.

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 February 2019 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-18 10:45 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 10:10 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-18 9:00 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?
Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?
Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!

The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........
Not the Ukraine ......
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html

Quite, but it still left Odessa in Ukraine (a country) and not in Russia (a different country). Political gestures do not alter physical geography. It was goodwill at a safe distance, in someone else's back yard. I note they didn't invite you to Severomorsk - can't imagine why!

The geography is irrelevant as Ukraine was part of the USSR which as you can see from the news reports at the time was commonly referred to as RUSSIA ..........
Using your argument if the Russian ship had visited Rosyth instead, it would have been on a goodwill visit to Scotland ......Not Britain .........

You are using "Russia" generically, Dave, not geographically. A "Hoover" is a vacuum cleaner, but not all vacuum cleaners are Hoovers. A Biro is a ball point pen, but not all ball point pens are Biros, and so on. The USSR was commonly called "Russia", but not all of the USSR was "Russia". So geography is relevant and, using my argument, had a ship of the Russian navy visited Rosyth it would have visited both Scotland and Great Britain, but would not have visited The United Kingdom, or England.

What you actually visited was Odessa (presumably under an Intourist escort), which was in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was an administrative part of the USSR, but was not in Russia, so your claim to have visited Russia is, both factually and geographically, incorrect.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-02-18 11:07 AM

Brick Lane has a Bangladeshi community Dave. You're understanding of geography appears to be pre-1947 which is strange given your time as a matelot.


Another knit picker ...........

Before Independent India, 1947 both Pakistan and East Bengal (now Bangladesh) were the part of Indian Princely States. Bangladesh emerged as an independent nation in 1971 after achieving independence from Pakistan in the Bangladesh Liberation War.

So to be technically correct the Bangladeshi residents of Brick lane are of Indian Heritage .........
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:28 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 11:47 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-18 10:45 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 10:10 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-18 9:00 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?
Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?
Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!

The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........
Not the Ukraine ......
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html

Quite, but it still left Odessa in Ukraine (a country) and not in Russia (a different country). Political gestures do not alter physical geography. It was goodwill at a safe distance, in someone else's back yard. I note they didn't invite you to Severomorsk - can't imagine why!

The geography is irrelevant as Ukraine was part of the USSR which as you can see from the news reports at the time was commonly referred to as RUSSIA ..........
Using your argument if the Russian ship had visited Rosyth instead, it would have been on a goodwill visit to Scotland ......Not Britain .........

You are using "Russia" generically, Dave, not geographically. A "Hoover" is a vacuum cleaner, but not all vacuum cleaners are Hoovers. A Biro is a ball point pen, but not all ball point pens are Biros, and so on. The USSR was commonly called "Russia", but not all of the USSR was "Russia". So geography is relevant and, using my argument, had a ship of the Russian navy visited Rosyth it would have visited both Scotland and Great Britain, but would not have visited The United Kingdom, or England.

What you actually visited was Odessa (presumably under an Intourist escort), which was in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was an administrative part of the USSR, but was not in Russia, so your claim to have visited Russia is, both factually and geographically, incorrect.


But generically correct........as the Ukraine was under the control of the Kremlin in 1976 ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 11:47 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-18 10:45 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 10:10 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-18 9:00 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:55 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-17 8:18 PM....................So the Russian ship that visited Portsmouth at the same time was from the Ukraine? .............

I don't know. What was its home port?
Ships get around a bit, don't they? Russia had a navy. It stationed ships in any port, in any satellite state, that it thought to its strategic advantage. It certainly wasn't going to let its satellites have their own navies, was it? Ever heard of Potemkin?
Russian ships were highly likely to have been in Odessa. The presence of Russian ships in foreign ports doesn't mean the country involved has been moved to Russia, does it? Were that true, Portsmouth must also have been in Russia. So now we have both Odessa and Portsmouth in Russia. OK Dave, if you say so!

The purpose of the "coordinated visits" was to foster goodwill with Russia ..........
Not the Ukraine ......
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-ajaxnetphoto-28th-may1976-portsmouthengland-the-russians-are-coming-134200281.html

Quite, but it still left Odessa in Ukraine (a country) and not in Russia (a different country). Political gestures do not alter physical geography. It was goodwill at a safe distance, in someone else's back yard. I note they didn't invite you to Severomorsk - can't imagine why!

The geography is irrelevant as Ukraine was part of the USSR which as you can see from the news reports at the time was commonly referred to as RUSSIA ..........
Using your argument if the Russian ship had visited Rosyth instead, it would have been on a goodwill visit to Scotland ......Not Britain .........

You are using "Russia" generically, Dave, not geographically. A "Hoover" is a vacuum cleaner, but not all vacuum cleaners are Hoovers. A Biro is a ball point pen, but not all ball point pens are Biros, and so on. The USSR was commonly called "Russia", but not all of the USSR was "Russia". So geography is relevant and, using my argument, had a ship of the Russian navy visited Rosyth it would have visited both Scotland and Great Britain, but would not have visited The United Kingdom, or England.

What you actually visited was Odessa (presumably under an Intourist escort), which was in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, which was an administrative part of the USSR, but was not in Russia, so your claim to have visited Russia is, both factually and geographically, incorrect.

Good illustrative comparisons Brian though i doubt it will ever sink in! For someone who claims to have "sailed the world" (seriously!!), he has a very poor grasp of geographical locations. Good job they never let him loose with any charts and kept him well away from the bridge!!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-18 12:29 PM
Good job they never let him loose with any charts and kept him well away from the bridge!!


Actually I'm qualified as a Navigators Yeoman.........So it was my job to correct the charts .........

userViolet1956
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-18 12:26 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-02-18 11:07 AM

Brick Lane has a Bangladeshi community Dave. You're understanding of geography appears to be pre-1947 which is strange given your time as a matelot.


Another knit picker ...........

Before Independent India, 1947 both Pakistan and East Bengal (now Bangladesh) were the part of Indian Princely States. Bangladesh emerged as an independent nation in 1971 after achieving independence from Pakistan in the Bangladesh Liberation War.

So to be technically correct the Bangladeshi residents of Brick lane are of Indian Heritage .........


*nitpicker* I was just following the geographical theme for a bit of fun Dave. We could move on to spelling ...and as person who makes her own gaffs on that and other fronts I expect you to be merciless.
userTracker
Posted: 18 February 2019 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-02-18 12:41 PM
and as person who makes her own gaffs on that and other fronts I expect you to be merciless.


A gaff is either a bit on a boat or a bit of kit used by fishermen - a gaffe is what we all make from time to time!!!
userViolet1956
Posted: 18 February 2019 1:27 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-02-18 12:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-18 12:26 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-02-18 11:07 AM

Brick Lane has a Bangladeshi community Dave. You're understanding of geography appears to be pre-1947 which is strange given your time as a matelot.


Another knit picker ...........

Before Independent India, 1947 both Pakistan and East Bengal (now Bangladesh) were the part of Indian Princely States. Bangladesh emerged as an independent nation in 1971 after achieving independence from Pakistan in the Bangladesh Liberation War.

So to be technically correct the Bangladeshi residents of Brick lane are of Indian Heritage .........


*nitpicker* I was just following the geographical theme for a bit of fun Dave. We could move on to spelling ...and as person who makes her own gaffs on that and other fronts I expect you to be merciless.


I mean "gaffes"
userteflon2
Posted: 18 February 2019 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-18 7:41 AM

teflon2 - 2019-02-17 6:55 PM.............................We were lied to by omission we were deceived by a surreptitious design to build a central federal European government, as is obvious the present EU bears no similarity to the common market we were led to believe was the objective.of the vote.

Pure paranoia. By the time you had that vote, you had been in the EEC since 1 Jan 1973. Are you really saying that you voted in June 1975 without gaining any understanding of what the EEC was? What stopped you? There was ample information available at the time. The papers were full of analysis of what it was, its history, and its pros and cons. From your comment above, it seems you still haven't looked at it in the round, and have only taken on board selectively misleading reportage.




Paranoid or not you seem to have dropped the we were not lied to comment. As I said Brian the information we were fed was meant to deceive and like a fool I was one who was deceived. I've 40+ years to watch where the EU is going but I didn't need that it was obvious within the 1st few that the only countries to benefit were to be the mainland Europe ones Ask yourself why did Greenland leave the EU in 1985 if not to protect their fish stocks from over-fishing by the mainland EU countries ? Now we need to follow them and regain our sovereignty. Just look all EU associated countries are now called states.
userFast Pat
Posted: 18 February 2019 7:08 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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teflon2 - 2019-02-18 6:58 PM

Paranoid or not you seem to have dropped the we were not lied to comment. As I said Brian the information we were fed was meant to deceive and like a fool I was one who was deceived. I've 40+ years to watch where the EU is going but I didn't need that it was obvious within the 1st few that the only countries to benefit were to be the mainland Europe ones Ask yourself why did Greenland leave the EU in 1985 if not to protect their fish stocks from over-fishing by the mainland EU countries ? Now we need to follow them and regain our sovereignty. Just look all EU associated countries are now called states.


Greenland has 50,000 inhabitants and fishing contributes to 50% of economy. The UK fishing industry employs 24,000 people and the fishing and fish processing industries accounted for 0.12% of the all UK economic output.

How many people do you think were (past tense) employed in car manufacturing in the UK and what % of GDP?

userTracker
Posted: 18 February 2019 7:21 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Screwing the motor industry in the past did not seem to bother the unions or successive governments so why the big deal now - oh yes, I know, because it suits the remoaner's half baked idea that everything EU is good and Brexit isn't!
user747
Posted: 19 February 2019 8:27 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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"The UK fishing industry employs 24,000 people and the fishing and fish processing industries accounted for 0.12% of the all UK economic output".

That is a direct result of EU fishing quotas and fish stock policies after the area was fished out by numerous EU Member States.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 8:29 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-02-18 7:08 PM

teflon2 - 2019-02-18 6:58 PM

Paranoid or not you seem to have dropped the we were not lied to comment. As I said Brian the information we were fed was meant to deceive and like a fool I was one who was deceived. I've 40+ years to watch where the EU is going but I didn't need that it was obvious within the 1st few that the only countries to benefit were to be the mainland Europe ones Ask yourself why did Greenland leave the EU in 1985 if not to protect their fish stocks from over-fishing by the mainland EU countries ? Now we need to follow them and regain our sovereignty. Just look all EU associated countries are now called states.


Greenland has 50,000 inhabitants and fishing contributes to 50% of economy. The UK fishing industry employs 24,000 people and the fishing and fish processing industries accounted for 0.12% of the all UK economic output.

How many people do you think were (past tense) employed in car manufacturing in the UK and what % of GDP?



The difference is the car industry is having to reinvent itself globally ..........

So blaming it on Brexit is just mere opportunism from the usual suspects .........

Are you Remoaners are so deluded......That you think that if we stayed in they wouldn't be closing factories???? ...........





Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 8:42 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Tracker - 2019-02-18 7:21 PM

Screwing the motor industry in the past did not seem to bother the unions or successive governments so why the big deal now - oh yes, I know, because it suits the remoaner's half baked idea that everything EU is good and Brexit isn't!

Illogical! Who, actually, owns the "British Motor Industry"? India? Japan? France? Germany?

This isn't about the EU, it is about the progressive loss of jobs, which translates to a loss of incomes and their spending to the economy in general, plus a loss of the resulting taxation to the exchequer, so transferring a lot of people who are at present on the income side of the government's balance sheet to the expenditure side.

Spin that how you will, but it is the costs and uncertainties surrounding Brexit that are inevitably adding to the reasons for firms to review if the reason they manufacture in the UK. We are seeing the consequences of their deliberations.

It isn't just Brexit, no-one but a fool would claim that. But equally, no one but a fool could claim that Brexit is having no impact. We could do without it, before the damage cascades through the whole economy. We are watching domino theory in action. The Brexiters won't be convinced until they are sitting amid the ruins, wondering where their lives went. They will be proudly independent, but we will all be impoverished in the process.

I'm not "scaremongering" to try to persuade Brexiters to return to some fuzzy, warm, EU nest, I'm stating what I think the future holds for all of us, and I can see it happening. We are seeing a gathering storm, with the Brexiters looking in the opposite direction and saying storm, what storm - even as the first drops of rain are falling. The silly games have to stop.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 11:16 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 9:29 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-18 7:21 PM

Screwing the motor industry in the past did not seem to bother the unions or successive governments so why the big deal now - oh yes, I know, because it suits the remoaner's half baked idea that everything EU is good and Brexit isn't!

Illogical! Who, actually, owns the "British Motor Industry"? India? Japan? France? Germany?

This isn't about the EU, it is about the progressive loss of jobs, which translates to a loss of incomes and their spending to the economy in general, plus a loss of the resulting taxation to the exchequer, so transferring a lot of people who are at present on the income side of the government's balance sheet to the expenditure side.

Spin that how you will, but it is the costs and uncertainties surrounding Brexit that are inevitably adding to the reasons for firms to review if the reason they manufacture in the UK. We are seeing the consequences of their deliberations.

It isn't just Brexit, no-one but a fool would claim that. But equally, no one but a fool could claim that Brexit is having no impact. We could do without it, before the damage cascades through the whole economy. We are watching domino theory in action. The Brexiters won't be convinced until they are sitting amid the ruins, wondering where their lives went. They will be proudly independent, but we will all be impoverished in the process.

I'm not "scaremongering" to try to persuade Brexiters to return to some fuzzy, warm, EU nest, I'm stating what I think the future holds for all of us, and I can see it happening. We are seeing a gathering storm, with the Brexiters looking in the opposite direction and saying storm, what storm - even as the first drops of rain are falling. The silly games have to stop.


The difference is Brexit will take us out of the storms path ............

It's the EU that will require the Ark when their empire sinks and the deluge of populism ...........



user747
Posted: 19 February 2019 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Epic contributor

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Anyone worrying about the loss of Manufacturing has come to the table about 50 years too late.

That Horse bolted a long time ago.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 11:16 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 9:29 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-18 7:21 PM

Screwing the motor industry in the past did not seem to bother the unions or successive governments so why the big deal now - oh yes, I know, because it suits the remoaner's half baked idea that everything EU is good and Brexit isn't!

Illogical! Who, actually, owns the "British Motor Industry"? India? Japan? France? Germany?

This isn't about the EU, it is about the progressive loss of jobs, which translates to a loss of incomes and their spending to the economy in general, plus a loss of the resulting taxation to the exchequer, so transferring a lot of people who are at present on the income side of the government's balance sheet to the expenditure side.

Spin that how you will, but it is the costs and uncertainties surrounding Brexit that are inevitably adding to the reasons for firms to review if the reason they manufacture in the UK. We are seeing the consequences of their deliberations.

It isn't just Brexit, no-one but a fool would claim that. But equally, no one but a fool could claim that Brexit is having no impact. We could do without it, before the damage cascades through the whole economy. We are watching domino theory in action. The Brexiters won't be convinced until they are sitting amid the ruins, wondering where their lives went. They will be proudly independent, but we will all be impoverished in the process.

I'm not "scaremongering" to try to persuade Brexiters to return to some fuzzy, warm, EU nest, I'm stating what I think the future holds for all of us, and I can see it happening. We are seeing a gathering storm, with the Brexiters looking in the opposite direction and saying storm, what storm - even as the first drops of rain are falling. The silly games have to stop.


The difference is Brexit will take us out of the storms path ............

It's the EU that will require the Ark when their empire sinks under the deluge of populism ...........





Just changed a typo ............

userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 9:29 AM

Tracker - 2019-02-18 7:21 PM

Screwing the motor industry in the past did not seem to bother the unions or successive governments so why the big deal now - oh yes, I know, because it suits the remoaner's half baked idea that everything EU is good and Brexit isn't!


It isn't just Brexit, no-one but a fool would claim that. But equally, no one but a fool could claim that Brexit is having no impact. We could do without it, before the damage cascades through the whole economy. We are watching domino theory in action. The Brexiters won't be convinced until they are sitting amid the ruins, wondering where their lives went. They will be proudly independent, but we will all be impoverished in the process.

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.

I'm not "scaremongering" to try to persuade Brexiters to return to some fuzzy, warm, EU nest, I'm stating what I think the future holds for all of us, and I can see it happening. We are seeing a gathering storm, with the Brexiters looking in the opposite direction and saying storm, what storm - even as the first drops of rain are falling. The silly games have to stop.

Couldn't agree more. It's about time Article 50 was pulled. They got that totally the wrong way round and instead of triggering should have looked first at all the consequences rather than after. A huge amount of damage has already been done and continuing virtually daily now.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-19 2:35 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

Clearly the majority thinks leaving the EU will be the best for the UK in the long run.....Just as I do ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 2:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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747 - 2019-02-19 12:35 PM

Anyone worrying about the loss of Manufacturing has come to the table about 50 years too late.

That Horse bolted a long time ago.

Yes it did, buy why add to it?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:01 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 2:54 PM

747 - 2019-02-19 12:35 PM

Anyone worrying about the loss of Manufacturing has come to the table about 50 years too late.

That Horse bolted a long time ago.

Yes it did, but why add to it?


Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........

It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........

Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

If you do then you've become even more deluded than I've given you credit for ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 3:03 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:34 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 11:16 AM...………………….The difference is Brexit will take us out of the storms path ............

So how will that work, Dave, and how long is the long run?

There was good reason to attract foreign firms to the UK to replace those that were lost in the last decades of the 1900s: see here http://tinyurl.com/y3a5t6mm That is what persuaded Macmillan and Heath that we should join the EEC, the country was a floundering mess.

If that foreign investment now leaves, as is becoming evident, who will employ those thousands who work in their factories now? If the investment goes, the banks will follow, because they feed on the investment.

The UK economy is 80% services, and services are generally high earning but low cost businesses.

Manufacturing is slow to react because the "up front" costs are so high, and their set up times so long. Services turn on a sixpence because their "up front" costs are low, and their set up times so short. There is a turning point, and once it is reached there is an exodus, followed by an economic collapse. The economic canary has now stopped singing.
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

But they did all vote for Brexit .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:34 PM

The UK economy is 80% services, and services are generally high earning but low cost businesses.



Which kinda shows that the UK made the right decisions to focus on services instead of manufacturing like Germany ..........

So it's the German canary that is in danger of losing its trill ...........

Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 3:52 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?

2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!

3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:34 PM

If that foreign investment now leaves, as is becoming evident, who will employ those thousands who work in their factories now? If the investment goes, the banks will follow, because they feed on the investment.



Seeing as the car industry prefers government bungs for finance .........

I doubt them leaving will have much affect on the banks ...........



userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:53 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?

2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!

3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.


1......Que?........Seeing as the UK is doing better than much of the EU in spite of Brexit ........

2......They want a whipping post because it sounds better than telling staff that they're getting the sack because some bloke in Slovakia will work for peanuts and their government has offered them millions to move .........

3.......The damage you refer to was going to happen as soon as governments starting blaming diesels for global warming ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 4:12 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:03 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

But they did all vote for Brexit .........

What, you really think the self-employed can't lose their employment? When people don't have money to spend, the self-employed lose their employment - mostly by becoming bankrupt. Then they generally look for work elsewhere, just like all those others who have lost their jobs. Problem then is: no jobs. No job, no income, no money for the mortgage, no home, no food banks - because the better off are no longer better off so no donations. The streets are cold, hard, places, Dave. Get real.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ..........Because I voted for what will be best for the UK .........

Just as THEY DID .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 4:03 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

But they did all vote for Brexit .........

What, you really think the self-employed can't lose their employment? When people don't have money to spend, the self-employed lose their employment - mostly by becoming bankrupt. Then they generally look for work elsewhere, just like all those others who have lost their jobs. Problem then is: no jobs. No job, no income, no money for the mortgage, no home, no food banks - because the better off are no longer better off so no donations. The streets are cold, hard, places, Dave. Get real.


Remind me of your experience of being self employed Brian? ..........

My families been self employed for 4 generations, so we have plenty of experience of surviving downturns ...........

So I dont need to get real.......reality is in my DNA ..........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 4:15 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:13 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Repeat post.......




Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 4:19 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .....

Actually you just said you'd willingly vote to put one of your family members out of work to get what you wanted for yourself. If that's not being selfish i don't what is. You say you "voted for what's best for the country" when all around we've seen nothing but businesses leaving UK to relocate where they can continue successfully and thousands of folk being thrown out of work. And you believe this is what's "best for the country"?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 4:52 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .....

Actually you just said you'd willingly vote to put one of your family members out of work to get what you wanted for yourself. If that's not being selfish i don't what is. You say you "voted for what's best for the country" when all around we've seen nothing but businesses leaving UK to relocate where they can continue successfully and thousands of folk being thrown out of work. And you believe this is what's "best for the country"?


So how many of the 1.9 million UK businesses are leaving the UK COMPLETELY? .........and those who are just relocating a few staff don't count ...........

Give us the names to back up your assertion ..........
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 5:10 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:52 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .....

Actually you just said you'd willingly vote to put one of your family members out of work to get what you wanted for yourself. If that's not being selfish i don't what is. You say you "voted for what's best for the country" when all around we've seen nothing but businesses leaving UK to relocate where they can continue successfully and thousands of folk being thrown out of work. And you believe this is what's "best for the country"?


So how many of the 1.9 million UK businesses are leaving the UK COMPLETELY? .........and those who are just relocating a few staff don't count ...........

Give us the names to back up your assertion ..........

But you don't even care in putting one of your own family members out of a job.....so why would you care anything about any UK businesses?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 5:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:52 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .....

Actually you just said you'd willingly vote to put one of your family members out of work to get what you wanted for yourself. If that's not being selfish i don't what is. You say you "voted for what's best for the country" when all around we've seen nothing but businesses leaving UK to relocate where they can continue successfully and thousands of folk being thrown out of work. And you believe this is what's "best for the country"?


So how many of the 1.9 million UK businesses are leaving the UK COMPLETELY? .........and those who are just relocating a few staff don't count ...........

Give us the names to back up your assertion ..........

But you don't even care in putting one of your own family members out of a job.....so why would you care anything about any UK businesses?


So that's not a very long list then? ...........

userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 6:02 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 5:40 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 5:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:52 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:39 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:18 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 4:13 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:56 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:47 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 3:42 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 2:45 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 2:35 PM

I'm afraid until it directly impacts on those individuals lives they won't ever accept they got it wrong. When a father was asked why he'd voted Brexit with a son who worked at Airbus, he replied, "so what....i voted for what i want, not for him", you realise how selfish some people are. The father of course was a retired pensioner.



It was ever thus ...........The majority votes for what is best for them .............

So using the same example......you'd vote your own family member out of a job?


Seeing as they're all self employed I cant see how I could .........

Emboldened the words to make it easier for you to understand what i asked you. Try again.


Yep ...........

So you'd willingly put a member of your own family out of work just to get what you want.

Staggering.


Yep.......we all voted for what's best for the country.........we're not selfish like you Remoaners .....

Actually you just said you'd willingly vote to put one of your family members out of work to get what you wanted for yourself. If that's not being selfish i don't what is. You say you "voted for what's best for the country" when all around we've seen nothing but businesses leaving UK to relocate where they can continue successfully and thousands of folk being thrown out of work. And you believe this is what's "best for the country"?


So how many of the 1.9 million UK businesses are leaving the UK COMPLETELY? .........and those who are just relocating a few staff don't count ...........

Give us the names to back up your assertion ..........

But you don't even care in putting one of your own family members out of a job.....so why would you care anything about any UK businesses?


So that's not a very long list then? ......

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 6:09 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:02 PM

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.


I've looked.........and I cant find any that are relocating completely because of Brexit? ........

There's a few that are sensible moving their European HQ.........to guess where.....Europe ........

So come on Bullet name names?.........BTW dont bother with Honda as that excuse already been shot down in flames ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:02 PM

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.


I've looked.........and I cant find any because i don't want to and don't care anyway ........

Fixed that for you.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 6:52 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:02 PM

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.


I've looked.........and I cant find any because they don't exist ........

I've lost the argument


...........

Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-19 6:53 PM
userteflon2
Posted: 19 February 2019 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
Pillar of the forums

Posts: 793
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Fast Pat - 2019-02-18 7:08 PM

teflon2 - 2019-02-18 6:58 PM

Paranoid or not you seem to have dropped the we were not lied to comment. As I said Brian the information we were fed was meant to deceive and like a fool I was one who was deceived. I've 40+ years to watch where the EU is going but I didn't need that it was obvious within the 1st few that the only countries to benefit were to be the mainland Europe ones Ask yourself why did Greenland leave the EU in 1985 if not to protect their fish stocks from over-fishing by the mainland EU countries ? Now we need to follow them and regain our sovereignty. Just look all EU associated countries are now called states.


Greenland has 50,000 inhabitants and fishing contributes to 50% of economy. The UK fishing industry employs 24,000 people and the fishing and fish processing industries accounted for 0.12% of the all UK economic output.

How many people do you think were (past tense) employed in car manufacturing in the UK and what % of GDP?





So by your own comment it's OK for the EU to almost ruin the economy of a small island to satisfy the destructive fish quotas given to the EU mainland fishing fleets, you obviously like bully's. By the way their leave vote was 52% ring any bells.

Edited by teflon2 2019-02-19 7:13 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:30 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:02 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:53 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?

2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!

3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.


1......Que?........Seeing as the UK is doing better than much of the EU in spite of Brexit ........

2......They want a whipping post because it sounds better than telling staff that they're getting the sack because some bloke in Slovakia will work for peanuts and their government has offered them millions to move .........

3.......The damage you refer to was going to happen as soon as governments starting blaming diesels for global warming ........

1 That is not what they are looking at. That is what has already happened. They are planning, so looking forward. It is what they expect to happen.
2 That may be what you think, but that is in your imagination.
3 To some extent yes, but the Brexit uncertainty and costs will make the UK a less attractive place to be.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:07 PM...............….So I dont need to get real.......reality is in my DNA ..........

Except where Brexit is concerned!
userBulletguy
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:40 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:02 PM

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.


I've looked.........and I cant find any because i don't want to and i don't care. ........
...........


It's about time you began taking matters more seriously. I imagine there's more than a few British immigrants in Spain who would wipe that silly grin off your gob......permanently.

Edited by Bulletguy 2019-02-19 7:43 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:53 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10906
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 7:40 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:52 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 6:09 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 6:02 PM

You've got a computer, you know how to use google so get searching. There's plenty listed but you won't look because you don't give a damn.......not even about putting one of your own family out of a job.


I've looked.........and I cant find any because i don't want to and i don't care. ........
...........


It's about time you began taking matters more seriously. I imagine there's more than a few British immigrants in Spain who would wipe that silly grin off your gob......permanently.

Dont think talk of violence towards David makes your point more valid ... Given your dodgy history on here regarding bunny boiler stuff if I was David I might think about informing the local police about personal safety
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:56 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 7:30 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:02 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:53 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?

2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!

3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.


1......Que?........Seeing as the UK is doing better than much of the EU in spite of Brexit ........

2......They want a whipping post because it sounds better than telling staff that they're getting the sack because some bloke in Slovakia will work for peanuts and their government has offered them millions to move .........

3.......The damage you refer to was going to happen as soon as governments starting blaming diesels for global warming ........

1 That is not what they are looking at. That is what has already happened. They are planning, so looking forward. It is what they expect to happen.
2 That may be what you think, but that is in your imagination.
3 To some extent yes, but the Brexit uncertainty and costs will make the UK a less attractive place to be.


1.....I expect the UK to flourish.......

2.....Perhaps you know which companies are going to relocate to the EU because of Brexit?......Or are they in your imagination?

3....So Honda closing their factory in Turkey is due to Brexit? .........So what about the one they're closing in Japan? ..........

userpelmetman
Posted: 19 February 2019 7:58 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Bulletguy - 2019-02-19 7:40 PM
I imagine there's more than a few British immigrants in Spain who would wipe that silly grin off your gob......


............ .......... .........
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 February 2019 8:03 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-19 7:56 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 7:30 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:02 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:53 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?
2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!
3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.

1......Que?........Seeing as the UK is doing better than much of the EU in spite of Brexit ........
2......They want a whipping post because it sounds better than telling staff that they're getting the sack because some bloke in Slovakia will work for peanuts and their government has offered them millions to move .........
3.......The damage you refer to was going to happen as soon as governments starting blaming diesels for global warming ........

1 That is not what they are looking at. That is what has already happened. They are planning, so looking forward. It is what they expect to happen.
2 That may be what you think, but that is in your imagination.
3 To some extent yes, but the Brexit uncertainty and costs will make the UK a less attractive place to be.

1.....I expect the UK to flourish.......
2.....Perhaps you know which companies are going to relocate to the EU because of Brexit?......Or are they in your imagination?
3....So Honda closing their factory in Turkey is due to Brexit? .........So what about the one they're closing in Japan? ..........

1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.
userpelmetman
Posted: 20 February 2019 8:26 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-19 7:56 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 7:30 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-19 4:02 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-19 3:53 PM
pelmetman - 2019-02-19 3:01 PM...………..
1 Brexit has nothing to do with International businesses getting ready for a recession and restructuring .........
2 It's just provided them with a useful whipping post ........
3 Do you actually think canceling Brexit will make a blind bit of difference??? .........

1 It does, but you refuse to see it. What the international businesses are seeing is that when the recession comes, Britain will be worse affected as a result of Brexit than other countries, and so will take longer to recover - especially if we Brexit with no deal. But look at how many are relocating into mainland Europe. How does that equate to them seeing the decline of Europe and the renaissance of the UK that you so love opining on?
2 So consider, why do they want that whipping post? See last sentence above!
3 Difference to what? To the damage that has already been done (which you seem to think advantageous): no, those jobs have gone. Too late. To the damage yet to be done, yes, by minimising the outflow and so the damage.

1......Que?........Seeing as the UK is doing better than much of the EU in spite of Brexit ........
2......They want a whipping post because it sounds better than telling staff that they're getting the sack because some bloke in Slovakia will work for peanuts and their government has offered them millions to move .........
3.......The damage you refer to was going to happen as soon as governments starting blaming diesels for global warming ........

1 That is not what they are looking at. That is what has already happened. They are planning, so looking forward. It is what they expect to happen.
2 That may be what you think, but that is in your imagination.
3 To some extent yes, but the Brexit uncertainty and costs will make the UK a less attractive place to be.

1.....I expect the UK to flourish.......
2.....Perhaps you know which companies are going to relocate to the EU because of Brexit?......Or are they in your imagination?
3....So Honda closing their factory in Turkey is due to Brexit? .........So what about the one they're closing in Japan? ..........

1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.


1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......

2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......

3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........

4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-20 8:28 AM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 February 2019 8:42 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades B-) .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ;-) ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-02-20 8:45 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 20 February 2019 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?


1.......Agreed.....

2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........

3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........

4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 20 February 2019 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?
userBulletguy
Posted: 20 February 2019 11:08 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?

Doesn't look like Pelmet has an answer for you Brian. Over 12 hours and not a peep from him on this.....very strange. I think you confused him after the second line in!
userpelmetman
Posted: 21 February 2019 8:23 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

userBulletguy
Posted: 21 February 2019 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

Yesterday you were quoting "1.9 million UK companies".....today that's now suddenly gone up to "5.4 million UK companies". Where have these extra 3.5 million "new companies" suddenly sprouted from overnight during the past 24 hours other than in your wild imagination? You've just been plucking any old figures out of thin air and making stuff up as you fumble along!

Brian also said in his post, "I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way."

Putting it bluntly it's very much a case of 'one way traffic'.......unless you have links from credible and reliable sources to disprove that?
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 7:55 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-21 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

Yesterday you were quoting "1.9 million UK companies".....today that's now suddenly gone up to "5.4 million UK companies". Where have these extra 3.5 million "new companies" suddenly sprouted from overnight during the past 24 hours other than in your wild imagination? You've just been plucking any old figures out of thin air and making stuff up as you fumble along!

Brian also said in his post, "I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way."

Putting it bluntly it's very much a case of 'one way traffic'.......unless you have links from credible and reliable sources to disprove that?


Will a briefing paper from the House of Commons do? ........

"The usual definition of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) is any business with fewer than 250 employees. There were 5.7 million SMEs in the UK in 2018, which was over 99% of all businesses. Micro-businesses have 0-9 employees.Dec 12, 2018"

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SN06152%20(1).pdf

The 1.9 million refers to Ltd companies ...........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM
2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........
3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........
4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........
Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

2 Fact, or supposition? But in any case irrelevant, because Honda have publicly confirmed they are closing the Swindon factory. Jobs gone!

3 No, but as I said, they are not "my" experts - I haven't commissioned any of the published forecasts. You don't understand forecasting. Forecasts aren't precise predictions, they show probable trends, based on various assumptions.

I'd say that the general direction for the economy, if we Brexit, already seems to be going in line with the forecasts. We are seeing the consequences of large companies not liking what they see, and taking protective decisions.

The consequence is that several thousands of relatively well paid jobs are going elsewhere. That is a loss to the UK economy, and we have not yet left, we do not yet know when we shall leave, and we do yet not know the terms on which we shall carry out nearly half our total foreign trade.

We'll only know for certain how accurate the forecasts were at least five years after we have left, because economies respond slowly to changed circumstances (i.e. Brexit).

It doesn't matter what you, or I, think, or want, a process has been commenced, and it will go where it will. The forecasts said the process was unwise, because it would have adverse impacts on the economy. Those adverse impacts are already coming into view. Others seem likely to follow. The jury is still out.

4 It's no good quoting a large number of small companies - who are unlikely to shift abroad, who are in any case reducing in number, of whom only 45% are even VAT registered, and most of whom do not export. They may employ 60% of those in employment, but the other, larger firms, employ the other 40%. It is that smaller number of large companies, many of whom do export, some in large volume, who are saying they do intend moving, that count - because of the scale of their businesses and employment. You also seem to forget that many of those SMEs work to service the big companies. So, when the big boys go, they take down many small businesses. The Honda closure will cost 3,500 jobs at the Swindon plant, but an estimated further 10,000 UK supply chain jobs. Many of those will be in SMEs.

Export costs.

It is not what we remainers say - it is what the exporters themselves say. You may have sent a few of your products abroad, but these firms import and export thousands of items daily. So, if you'll forgive me, I'll take the word of those who deal with exporting and exporting in large volumes, day in and day out.

Tariff impositions are a self-evident cost and, to the extent that they may apply to trade with EU countries, so will increase cost. But, border checks take time, and time has a cost. Even filling in an additional form, thousands of time over, means extra staff, and that too carries a cost.

If you can't see where those added costs are going to arise, it is because your head is in the sand which, yet again, leaves you inelegantly exposed!
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 9:32 AM

Export costs.

It is not what we remainers say - it is what the exporters themselves say. You may have sent a few of your products abroad, but these firms import and export thousands of items daily. So, if you'll forgive me, I'll take the word of those who deal with exporting and exporting in large volumes, day in and day out.

Tariff impositions are a self-evident cost and, to the extent that they may apply to trade with EU countries, so will increase cost. But, border checks take time, and time has a cost. Even filling in an additional form, thousands of time over, means extra staff, and that too carries a cost.

If you can't see where those added costs are going to arise, it is because your head is in the sand which, yet again, leaves you inelegantly exposed!


So the vast majority of those firms are importing/exporting the same things day in day out .............

So once they've filled in the form once.......job done ..........



userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 9:32 AM

It is that smaller number of large companies, many of whom do export, some in large volume, who are saying they do intend moving, that count - because of the scale of their businesses and employment.



So name names then? ..........Who's moving to the EU? ..........

It cant be Honda because they're leaving the EU .......

userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 9:32 AM

3 No, but as I said, they are not "my" experts - I haven't commissioned any of the published forecasts. You don't understand forecasting. Forecasts aren't precise predictions, they show probable trends, based on various assumptions.

I'd say that the general direction for the economy, if we Brexit, already seems to be going in line with the forecasts.


They're your Remoaner EXPERTS forecasts ........

In line with forecasts???? ............We supposed to be 2 and a half years into a recession and have 820,000 extra unemployed!.........The complete opposite is true, we're one of the few EU economies who are still growing AND we have 854,000 extra job vacancies ..........

Blimey Brian you really have sold your marbles if you think that equates with "going inline with forecasts" .......

No doubt you think Germany is booming? .........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-22 9:54 AM
userFast Pat
Posted: 22 February 2019 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:49 AM

They're your Remoaner EXPERTS forecasts ........


Well I'll say one thing Brexiter EXPERTS forecasts, he was right. Their only economic guru is Patrick Minford, a professor at the University of Cardiff and a member of the Economists for Brexit group. In 2012 he told a committee of MPs: "If you remove the protection of the sort that has been given to car industry, you're going to have a change in the situation facing that industry, and you are going to have to run it down. It'll be your interest to do it, just in the same way we ran down the coal industry, or the steel industry. These things happen."
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 February 2019 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 9:32 AM
Export costs.
It is not what we remainers say - it is what the exporters themselves say. You may have sent a few of your products abroad, but these firms import and export thousands of items daily. So, if you'll forgive me, I'll take the word of those who deal with exporting and exporting in large volumes, day in and day out.
Tariff impositions are a self-evident cost and, to the extent that they may apply to trade with EU countries, so will increase cost. But, border checks take time, and time has a cost. Even filling in an additional form, thousands of time over, means extra staff, and that too carries a cost.
If you can't see where those added costs are going to arise, it is because your head is in the sand which, yet again, leaves you inelegantly exposed!

So the vast majority of those firms are importing/exporting the same things day in day out .............
So once they've filled in the form once.......job done ..........

But not according to them.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 February 2019 12:36 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:49 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 9:32 AM
3 No, but as I said, they are not "my" experts - I haven't commissioned any of the published forecasts. You don't understand forecasting. Forecasts aren't precise predictions, they show probable trends, based on various assumptions.
I'd say that the general direction for the economy, if we Brexit, already seems to be going in line with the forecasts.

They're your Remoaner EXPERTS forecasts ........
In line with forecasts???? ............We supposed to be 2 and a half years into a recession and have 820,000 extra unemployed!.........The complete opposite is true, we're one of the few EU economies who are still growing AND we have 854,000 extra job vacancies ..........
Blimey Brian you really have sold your marbles if you think that equates with "going inline with forecasts" .......
No doubt you think Germany is booming? .........

What I said above Dave: NOT MY EXPERTS. They are the opinion of majority of credible economists, who happen to have forecast that Brexit will shrink the UK economy. As Pat says above, Minford is one of the few who disagrees, but he is part of a small minority. I'm going with the majority. Call it democratic, if you like!

You are quoting wrongly above, because the forecasts you keep going back to support your claim were based on calculations made before the referendum, relate to the possible effects of Brexit, and we have not yet Brexited.

Plus, the form of Brexit still remains unclear. You can't expect reasonably accurate forecasts when the facts are as stable as a half set jelly!

But, what is clear is that there is no version of half set jelly Brexit that is expected to be beneficial. You then also have to take into account the fact that no-one yet knows what type of future trading relationship we might have with the EU. That ranges between WTO, which is the worst outcome for EU trade, to full membership of the EEA plus customs union, which seems to have minimal economic, but some political, impacts (i.e. BRINO, which Brexiters won't like).

All you can know now is that the economy is likely to be hit by Brexit, and the "harder" the Brexit the bigger the hit, and the closer the following trading relationship the smaller the economic hit.

So, we are not "supposed" to be two and a half years into recession with 820,000 unemployed, because we did not Brexit last June, and because those forecasts have since been modified due to the changed circumstances that have gradually crept into the light since.

You should also bear in mind that the figures you quote on current UK economic performance relate to the UK as a member of the EU, are the result of past decisions, that not all calculations show the UK economy as growing, and that none are forecasts of post Brexit outcome.

It is daft to look at the factual record of past policy if what you want to know is how things may turn out in future. In the words of that finance industry catchphrase: "past performance is no guide to future results". You seem to think it is.
userBulletguy
Posted: 22 February 2019 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:55 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-21 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

Yesterday you were quoting "1.9 million UK companies".....today that's now suddenly gone up to "5.4 million UK companies". Where have these extra 3.5 million "new companies" suddenly sprouted from overnight during the past 24 hours other than in your wild imagination? You've just been plucking any old figures out of thin air and making stuff up as you fumble along!

Brian also said in his post, "I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way."

Putting it bluntly it's very much a case of 'one way traffic'.......unless you have links from credible and reliable sources to disprove that?


Will a briefing paper from the House of Commons do? ........

"The usual definition of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) is any business with fewer than 250 employees. There were 5.7 million SMEs in the UK in 2018, which was over 99% of all businesses. Micro-businesses have 0-9 employees.Dec 12, 2018"

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SN06152%20(1).pdf

The 1.9 million refers to Ltd companies ...........

Interestingly it also shows only 1.4m are employers which puts your 5.6m figure into a clearer perspective. After all, a pelmet knocker up in some garden shed will hardly be contributing £billions to the economy or need to relocate in order to continue business.

Meantime the 'one way traffic' of companies and businesses leaving UK continues.
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 12:36 PM

It is daft to look at the factual record of past policy if what you want to know is how things may turn out in future. In the words of that finance industry catchphrase: "past performance is no guide to future results". You seem to think it is.


Seeing as we've out performed the likes of Germany since the vote ............

I'd say your Remoaner experts are very poor guide as to what will happen to UK PLC ........

userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 1:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:55 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-21 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

Yesterday you were quoting "1.9 million UK companies".....today that's now suddenly gone up to "5.4 million UK companies". Where have these extra 3.5 million "new companies" suddenly sprouted from overnight during the past 24 hours other than in your wild imagination? You've just been plucking any old figures out of thin air and making stuff up as you fumble along!

Brian also said in his post, "I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way."

Putting it bluntly it's very much a case of 'one way traffic'.......unless you have links from credible and reliable sources to disprove that?


Will a briefing paper from the House of Commons do? ........

"The usual definition of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) is any business with fewer than 250 employees. There were 5.7 million SMEs in the UK in 2018, which was over 99% of all businesses. Micro-businesses have 0-9 employees.Dec 12, 2018"

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SN06152%20(1).pdf

The 1.9 million refers to Ltd companies ...........

Interestingly it also shows only 1.4m are employers which puts your 5.6m figure into a clearer perspective. After all, a pelmet knocker up in some garden shed will hardly be contributing £billions to the economy or need to relocate in order to continue business.

Meantime the 'one way traffic' of companies and businesses leaving UK continues.


Eh?..........Put your specs on Bullet .......

There are 5.7 MILLION SME's in the UK who employ up to 250 people ........

I was a exporting micro business with fewer than 9 employees .........

So have you got that list of companies relocating? ............

userBulletguy
Posted: 22 February 2019 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 3:19 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 1:25 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:55 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-21 4:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-21 8:23 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 10:53 AM

pelmetman - 2019-02-20 9:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:42 AM
pelmetman - 2019-02-20 8:26 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-20 8:03 AM
1 You may, they don't. With major investments at stake, I'm persuaded by them. There you go.
2 Relevance to whipping post?
3 Not interested in Turkey or Japan, just in jobs and revenue earning production in UK.

1.....I guess we'll have to wait and see......
2.....You have tried to blame the closure of Honda on Brexit.......Honda have denied that and proved the fact by relocating to Japan and not the EU.......
3.....UK employment hasn't been this high since the 70's .......proving that Brexit is the best thing to happen to UK PLC in decades .........
4.....Hows that list of UK companies relocating to the EU coming on? ..........

1 We shall.
2 I haven't made any reference to the Honda plant closing because of Brexit. Having said that, Brexit will hardly have improved its prospects.
3 It proves nothing of the sort. Brexit has not yet happened. It is what happens after Brexit that concerns me.
4 Relevance to whipping post?

1.......Agreed.....
2.......So you think if we cancelled Brexit...... Honda would stay? ..........
3.......Your experts said we would be 2 and a half years into a recession, and have 820,000 extra unemployed by now......But the total opposite has happened...........Is that not proof that your experts are useless??? ..........
4 .......You Remoaners claim hundreds of UK businesses are relocating to the EU......Evidence please? ......

1
2 No, they have decided and have put all their staff on notice, so are very unlikely to reverse that decision.
3 Not "my" experts.
4 I have not made that claim. However, it is evident from the news that firms are re-locating offices, factories, staff etc. Why now?

The only things that are clear at present are that we don't know if Brexit will take place, we don't know what form Brexit will take, we don't know definitively when Brexit will take place, and we don't know what the post-Brexit relationship with the EU might be. Given that degree of uncertainty, few firms will make radical changes in anticipation. Doesn't make sense. Some are positioning themselves to be able to continue trading in the EU whatever form Brexit takes. Others will wait and see, and then decide. But, whichever way it goes, I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way. The other thing I see is reports from firms which trade extensively with the EU saying that all forms of Brexit will add delay and cost to their businesses. I assume they know their day jobs well enough to know what they are talking about. So 2 + 2 = ?


2.......They made that decision back in 2017 when Japan signed the FTA with the EU aka Germany who will be the major beneficiary of tariff free access for their cars to Japan ........

3........Oh I see ..........You've disowned your experts who get it wrong ..........Do you have any that have got it right???? ...........

4........So its another Remoaner myth.........and all that's happening is that a minuscule number of the 5.4 million UK firms are setting up European HQ's in.........Europe ..........

Another myth that has been spouted by you Remoaners is the extra cost of exporting, which has been explained to you by me and others who HAVE EXPORTED..........is another piece of paper that's all ........

Yesterday you were quoting "1.9 million UK companies".....today that's now suddenly gone up to "5.4 million UK companies". Where have these extra 3.5 million "new companies" suddenly sprouted from overnight during the past 24 hours other than in your wild imagination? You've just been plucking any old figures out of thin air and making stuff up as you fumble along!

Brian also said in his post, "I see no reports of increasing numbers of companies and jobs flocking to the UK, only reports of companies and jobs going the other way."

Putting it bluntly it's very much a case of 'one way traffic'.......unless you have links from credible and reliable sources to disprove that?


Will a briefing paper from the House of Commons do? ........

"The usual definition of small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs) is any business with fewer than 250 employees. There were 5.7 million SMEs in the UK in 2018, which was over 99% of all businesses. Micro-businesses have 0-9 employees.Dec 12, 2018"

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/SN06152%20(1).pdf

The 1.9 million refers to Ltd companies ...........

Interestingly it also shows only 1.4m are employers which puts your 5.6m figure into a clearer perspective. After all, a pelmet knocker up in some garden shed will hardly be contributing £billions to the economy or need to relocate in order to continue business.

Meantime the 'one way traffic' of companies and businesses leaving UK continues.


Eh?..........Put your specs on Bullet .......

There are 5.7 MILLION SME's in the UK who employ up to 250 people ........

Correct....and i've emboldened the important words you are ignoring "up to"...and it clearly states that's from zero (no employees) "up to" 250. My window cleaner falls in the SME bracket. It's only small, medium, and large businesses where the figures are of any significance and there ain't very many of those are there?

The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.

There's a long running thread here listing companies but you won't read any of it and prefer to deny deny deny, so i don't know why i bother putting links up. As far as you're concerned, if told it was dark at 2am in UK you'd claim it was daylight.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 22 February 2019 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-02-22 3:15 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 12:36 PM
It is daft to look at the factual record of past policy if what you want to know is how things may turn out in future. In the words of that finance industry catchphrase: "past performance is no guide to future results". You seem to think it is.

Seeing as we've out performed the likes of Germany since the vote ............
I'd say your Remoaner experts are very poor guide as to what will happen to UK PLC ........

Might be a more convincing argument if you had a range of recognised forecasts all saying Brexit will be economic nirvana!
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 6:34 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 3:15 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-02-22 12:36 PM
It is daft to look at the factual record of past policy if what you want to know is how things may turn out in future. In the words of that finance industry catchphrase: "past performance is no guide to future results". You seem to think it is.

Seeing as we've out performed the likes of Germany since the vote ............
I'd say your Remoaner experts are very poor guide as to what will happen to UK PLC ........

Might be a more convincing argument if you had a range of recognised forecasts all saying Brexit will be economic nirvana!


Cant say I ever give much credence to guesstimates ...........

I prefer actuality.........and we're actually doing much better than any of your Remoaner experts predicted ..........

Much to yours and theirs annoyance .........

userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........



userBulletguy
Posted: 22 February 2019 8:41 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

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Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

How hard can it be to find just one UK firm that has relocated to the EU? ...........

There's supposed to be hundreds of them? ..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:27 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.
userpelmetman
Posted: 22 February 2019 9:30 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-22 9:39 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 22 February 2019 10:10 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.
userpelmetman
Posted: 23 February 2019 7:52 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

I thought you Remoaners said there were hundreds of UK businesses relocating to the EU? ........

So you're just spreading more FAKE NEWS .........





Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-23 7:54 AM
userBulletguy
Posted: 23 February 2019 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.
userpelmetman
Posted: 23 February 2019 7:32 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 3:47 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.


Is that it Dumb Dumb???? ..........a German company cutting its overheads because their industry is in the sh*t ........

Surely you can name a few of the hundreds of UK companies who are relocating to the EU? ........

Unless of course you were just spreading FAKE NEWS? .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 23 February 2019 8:24 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:32 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 3:47 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.


Is that it Dumb Dumb???? .........

No, i've not finished with you by a long way. You're not wriggling off the hook this time.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times. I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't. What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?
userpelmetman
Posted: 23 February 2019 8:44 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 8:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:32 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 3:47 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.


Is that it Dumb Dumb???? .........

No, i've not finished with you by a long way. You're not wriggling off the hook this time.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times. I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't. What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?


I will .........When you come up with the name of a UK company that has relocated to the EU? ........

You've got hundreds to chose from......haven't you? .........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-02-23 8:46 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 23 February 2019 9:12 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-23 8:44 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 8:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:32 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 3:47 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.


Is that it Dumb Dumb???? .........

No, i've not finished with you by a long way. You're not wriggling off the hook this time.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times. I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't. What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?


I will .........

Yes you will....so come on, quit avoiding the question. I've given you links but you flatly refuse to open any. Now it's time you answered my question. No more deflections and excuses. I want answers to the below please.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times.

I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't.

What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?
userpelmetman
Posted: 23 February 2019 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 9:12 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 8:44 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 8:24 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:32 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-23 3:47 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-23 7:52 AM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 10:10 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:30 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 9:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 9:16 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 8:41 PM

pelmetman - 2019-02-22 7:54 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-02-22 5:49 PM


The number of companies looking to relocate have been well reported in the media, eg Dutch government have been in talks with over 250 UK companies looking to relocate and 2000 jobs already gone there. Car parts company Schaeffler closed down two UK operations with the loss of almost 600 jobs, Honda announced it's closure this week with the loss of 7,000 jobs in total and the list is growing but you prefer to remain in denial and pretend no jobs or businesses have closed down. You're in a permanent state of denial.


SO NAME ONE! .........There must be hundreds to chose from ..........

You already have by quoting my post but so blinkered in your denial, never even noticed. Have you found any companies upping sticks to relocate to UK 'because of Brexit' yet?


So have they relocated the factory to the EU? ...........Nope .........

Yes.


Really? ............

So where is Honda relocating to? ..........

BTW Japan isn't in the EU ........

Oh .......and they're not a UK firm ...........

Idiot.

Schaeffler said its factories in Plymouth, southwest England, and Llanelli in Wales would close over the next couple of years, with production moving to Germany, China, South Korea and the United States.


Is that it???? ...........

One German owned business shutting factories due to the downturn in the car industry and blaming Brexit ............

Quit playing the clown. You got shouty demanding 'so name one', then when it was pointed out you'd already done that by quoting my post, thought you'd try and look clever by using Honda and ignore the one you knew had gone back to an EU country.

You're being flippantly dismissive as though that's irrelevant, ignoring the widely reported media of companies planning to leave or already left UK, due to uncertainties around Brexit. I already know you don't care or give a flying f*ck about people losing their jobs as you've made that very clear on this forum which i find utterly abhorrent.

I'm still waiting for you to show any companies coming to UK 'because of Brexit'....but still nothing.


Is that it Dumb Dumb???? .........

No, i've not finished with you by a long way. You're not wriggling off the hook this time.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times. I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't. What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?


I will .........

Yes you will....so come on, quit avoiding the question. I've given you links but you flatly refuse to open any. Now it's time you answered my question. No more deflections and excuses. I want answers to the below please.

Please post a link of a company coming to UK "because of Brexit" as i've been asking you numerous times.

I'm only seeing 'one way traffic' of businesses leaving UK "due to uncertainties with Brexit". You dispute that and claim it's not true, yet when you're given the opportunity to show business coming here, you can't.

What happened to this exodus of companies Brexit would bring to the UK...who and where are they?


..........

userBulletguy
Posted: 23 February 2019 9:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


The special one

Posts: 10146
5000500010025
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-02-23 9:14 PM

..........

Is this the best you can come up with for an "answer" to a serious question?
userPaul-
Posted: 24 February 2019 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Has lots to offer

Posts: 434
10010010010025
Location: Yorkshire


The company I worked for relocated to Poland due cheaper costs long before Brexit was thought about, however the EU will give a grant to open a factory but not to relocate one, so the company opened another firm in Poland.

This new firm undercut ours and a few years later ours went under, but not before the company had received a lot of grants from the EU and the UK to improve and enlarge.

Funnily enough they want to open again in the UK due to Brexit but this time under another name.
userFast Pat
Posted: 24 February 2019 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 
Treasured contributor

Posts: 878
500100100100252525
Location: Hymer Exsis 588


Paul- - 2019-02-24 11:46 AM

The company I worked for relocated to Poland due cheaper costs long before Brexit was thought about, however the EU will give a grant to open a factory but not to relocate one, so the company opened another firm in Poland.

This new firm undercut ours and a few years later ours went under, but not before the company had received a lot of grants from the EU and the UK to improve and enlarge.

Funnily enough they want to open again in the UK due to Brexit but this time under another name.


EU grants? Like the ones Nissan, Honda etc have got for their UK factories.
userpelmetman
Posted: 24 February 2019 8:54 PM
Subject: RE: the demise of democracy in the United Kingdom
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 26508
500050005000500050001000500
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Fast Pat - 2019-02-24 11:56 AM

Paul- - 2019-02-24 11:46 AM

The company I worked for relocated to Poland due cheaper costs long before Brexit was thought about, however the EU will give a grant to open a factory but not to relocate one, so the company opened another firm in Poland.

This new firm undercut ours and a few years later ours went under, but not before the company had received a lot of grants from the EU and the UK to improve and enlarge.

Funnily enough they want to open again in the UK due to Brexit but this time under another name.


EU grants? Like the ones Nissan, Honda etc have got for their UK factories.


They got offered 60 million quid apparently .........

But it appears the EU's FTA is far more profitable ........

I guess they know best eh?.......when it comes down to the bottom line .......

It's just as well our economy isn't based solely on flogging dodgy motors like the EU's bosses is .......