2016 referendum was illegal
userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:18 AM
Subject: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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At the recent court heaaring on 21st Feb...May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal and would that it have been voided by the courts had it been a mandatory referendum but since it is only advisory only May can void it....however, she has not which makes her pretty corrupt and up to no good. In order to restore democracy there needs to be a legal refeerendum with rules ensuring only the truth is told. Given the British mass media who all publish total fake news on the EU I'm not sure how this could be achieved but it needs to be if the UK is to restore it's standing in the world. At present the world knows this referendum is illegal and May is pushing it and therefore showing the UK to be utterly corrupt.
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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antony1969 - 2019-03-08 11:49 AM

Jesus


You turning to God now? Better cover all the bases - Jehovah, Mohamad etc etc
userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 11:58 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tories-under-attack-after-tax-haven-donations-hrj29tshw

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/is-the-anti-tax-avoidance-directive-the-reason-the-rich-want-out-of-eu-1-5669763
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:07 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Fast Pat - 2019-03-08 11:58 AM

There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:



Because the majority of the voting public voted for it ........

userHarveyHeaven
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Edited by HarveyHeaven 2019-03-08 12:10 PM
userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:09 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 12:07 PM

Fast Pat - 2019-03-08 11:58 AM

There is a reason why the Tories dont want to overturn the illegal result:



Because the majority of the voting public voted for it ........



You still have'nt answered this question:

And if you weren't so worried that the public have changed their minds you wouldn't be running so scared of a second vote - now that we know what the actual leave package looks like.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 12:19 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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21 days to go ..............and the Remoaner brigade are going into temper tantrum overdrive .........
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:18 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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HarveyHeaven - 2019-03-08 12:09 PM



Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Harvey, it would help understanding enormously if you could please post a link to your source for that court verdict. I, for one, would love to read it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-08 2:18 PM

HarveyHeaven - 2019-03-08 12:09 PM



Indeed and not only the Tories but the newspaper owners who spent months spreading false news before and during the referendum and continue to do so. Of course the masses believed the riduculuous stories in the papers and on the Tory run BBC...the UK has no reliable media outlet these days which makes this country little better than North Korea or Russia. There was no coverage of the Court findings on 21st February of the illegal nature of the 2016 referendum nor of the fact that Theresa May's lawyer admitted that she knows it is illegal. The population are being brain washed on a daily bases but are totally unaware of it. The UK can no longer be described as a democratic nation until democracy is restored first with a legal referendum then with impartiality being restored to the BBC by ensuring the board of executives are totally detached from political parties.

Harvey, it would help understanding enormously if you could please post a link to your source for that court verdict. I, for one, would love to read it.


So would I ............

Coz if it were true the mainstream media would have been all over it like a rash .........

userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Here is the link:
https://pressreleases.responsesource.com/news/97179/court-of-appeal-refuses-permission-to-appeal-following-uk-in/
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:

“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”

In what way can that be taken as advisory.

Might help those who say we didn’t know what we were voting for to read the leaflet. Not going to post a link, I found it easily enough, so can they.

I am not arguing for or against but please keep to facts!

Edited by pottypam 2019-03-08 3:28 PM
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 3:38 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........



I can't see that either Dave. I've looked at law databases on line and the decision made consequent of the hearing on 21 February is not yet published. Only the original decision of Mr Justice Ouseley made back in December 2018 is available. He decided that the case was out of time and in any event that it had no merit. He his widely respected in legal circles and often described as having "a brain the size of a planet". But then the populist view is that a good judge depends upon whether you agree with him or her.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 3:39 PM
userBarryd999
Posted: 8 March 2019 4:32 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Certainly looks like she knew.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

and

https://twitter.com/RobertCPalmer13/status/1098913421519663104

As for the referendum only being advisory that is true.

The thing about this is that if the referendum was binding, it would be declared unlawful by the courts. But as it is only advisory (ie. a glorified opinion poll that carries no legal weight) the courts cannot intervene.

Morally however TM knowing it was illegal should have been at the least a valid reason for another referendum which may or may not still happen.

Just because some polly said we will implement whatever you decide means nothing.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:00 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Thank you (I assume ) Pam. The 21 Feb EU Challenge case. When I read Harvey's post, I thought he was referring to a new case.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:31 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 5:33 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:46 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

Her own lawyer Sir James Eadie QC said so;

However, according to law lecturer and jurist Rob Palmer, first Treasury counsel Sir James Eadie QC, acting for the prime minister, admitted that May was fully aware of the unlawful aspect of the referendum campaign: 'The true position is that the PM is well aware of the notorious facts...well published facts ...of the EC findings, fact of an appeal, police investigations, ICO, DCMS committees. All properly done...& it it perfectly obvious that the PM has decided to carry on'.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1103309618279784449



Edited by Bulletguy 2019-03-08 5:48 PM
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 5:50 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-08 5:46 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 2:53 PM



Where does it say "May's lawyer admitted she knows the referendum is illegal"? ........

Her own lawyer Sir James Eadie QC said so;

However, according to law lecturer and jurist Rob Palmer, first Treasury counsel Sir James Eadie QC, acting for the prime minister, admitted that May was fully aware of the unlawful aspect of the referendum campaign: 'The true position is that the PM is well aware of the notorious facts...well published facts ...of the EC findings, fact of an appeal, police investigations, ICO, DCMS committees. All properly done...& it it perfectly obvious that the PM has decided to carry on'.

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2019/02/27/as-theresa-may-loses-control-over-brexit-her-lawyer-admits-the-eu-referendum-was-illegal/

https://twitter.com/A50Challenge/status/1103309618279784449



Jesus
userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:06 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:31 PM

And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Just tried listening to some of that Veronica. I notice a poster asked if there was a written transcript available and can understand why as the audio levels are seriously lacking.
userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userFast Pat
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM

I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:

“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”

In what way can that be taken as advisory.

Might help those who say we didn’t know what we were voting for to read the leaflet. Not going to post a link, I found it easily enough, so can they.

I am not arguing for or against but please keep to facts!


The actual legislation enacting the referendum states in the introduction that it was only advisory.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nigel-farage-forced-to-admit-the-eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/

userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

userantony1969
Posted: 8 March 2019 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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userpottypam
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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The actual legislation enacting the referendum states in the introduction that it was only advisory.


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-nigel-farage-forced-to-admit-the-eu-referendum-was-only-advisory-a7401151.html

https://fullfact.org/europe/was-eu-referendum-advisory/


Have read the first link and the introduction to the legislation and in that I cannot see advisory at all. Can you quote the section number? In the commons briefing it does mention advisory but even if it was advisory, the Government surely, is justified in carrying out the wish of the majority of those who voted.

And it wasn’t some “polly” who said the result would be implemented, it was the Government.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-08 6:06 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:31 PM

And for those who have both the time and the inclination there is a video recording of the entire proceedings conducted on 21.2.2019 available on the website below so it is possible to find out what James Eadie QC actually said,

https://www.judiciary.uk/publications/wilson-others-v-the-prime-minister-respondent-1-and-the-electoral-commission-respondent-2/

Just tried listening to some of that Veronica. I notice a poster asked if there was a written transcript available and can understand why as the audio levels are seriously lacking.


I can hear it OK on my laptop with my speakers attached.
userViolet1956
Posted: 8 March 2019 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-08 7:38 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 8:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 7:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.


So Remoaners brought the case because they are concerned about democracy? ........

Now that IS funny Veronica .......... ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 8 March 2019 8:25 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 7:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.

Pelmets interpretation of democracy is to applaud the use of criminality to subvert it. Post referendum much more has now come to light. Viewing C4's reports on the Banks files has been truly chilling and can only hope the NCA are following the money as that's the only way they will get to the bottom of this, but it's a massive task with a PM who knows time isn't on the NCA's side. A50 should never have been triggered when it was.

Yes i had to whack the speaker volume up on those clips. Both sides had very poor mic's set too far away and Miss Simor QC was barely audible. If you run any normal YT clip through after you'll find you have turn the volume level back down. Pity the entire court transcript doesn't seem available.
userpelmetman
Posted: 8 March 2019 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-08 8:25 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 7:35 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-08 6:18 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-08 5:26 PM

Ever the “knitpicker” (according to Dave P), I believe there’s a distinction to be drawn between illegal practices involved in the referendum campaign and what is currently being described by some as an “illegal” referendum. From my reading of Mr Justice Ouseley’s decision he found that the referendum was not illegal under statute (in particular “The Representation of the People Act) or at common law. I’ve only skimmed his judgement and that’s the best I can make of it as it’s time for my afternoon nap but for those who like reading the dry stuff here’s a link to his judgment.

https://www.ukineuchallenge.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/260395-Judgment-10.12.2018-Version-for-publication.pdf


So basically its got bog all to do with democracy ...........

Its just a legal bitchfest by losers ..........and they lost AGAIN ......

No, it has got everything to do with democracy. The points in issue was whether TM acted in accordance with the law, and more importantly whether she acted reasonably. The claimaints maintained that the consequence of TM triggering Article 50 before the investigation into the unlawful conduct was complete was not reasonable because the offences committed undermined democracy by skewing/influencing the vote. Whilst TM was not bound by statute or under common law to say we must re-run the referendum or declare the result void some maintain that she was neverthless honour bound under democratic principles to do so.

Pelmets interpretation of democracy is to applaud the use of criminality to subvert it. Post referendum much more has now come to light. Viewing C4's reports on the Banks files has been truly chilling and can only hope the NCA are following the money as that's the only way they will get to the bottom of this, but it's a massive task with a PM who knows time isn't on the NCA's side. A50 should never have been triggered when it was.

Yes i had to whack the speaker volume up on those clips. Both sides had very poor mic's set too far away and Miss Simor QC was barely audible. If you run any normal YT clip through after you'll find you have turn the volume level back down. Pity the entire court transcript doesn't seem available.


Did you win this case?............Nope ......

Has Bank's been charged?......Nope ......

userjumpstart
Posted: 9 March 2019 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Harvey heaven is obviously a Russian troll. So all your Information has come from.....wait for it ..yes the press. Presumably the same press you claim put out false news.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 9 March 2019 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM
I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:
“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”
In what way can that be taken as advisory.………………….

The point about the referendum being advisory appears primarily to be constitutional. Under our constitution only parliament is sovereign, and only the sovereign parliament has the power to enact law.

All parliament did was to authorise the conduct of a referendum, to do which it had to pass an Act of Parliament (The European Union Referendum Act 2015), which was itself introduced under powers granted under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

The result of the referendum is then valid only if the legal framework under which it was conducted was observed to the satisfaction of the Electoral Commission (whose powers come from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which is why the dispute over the legality Arron Banks various donations resides with them).

This leaves the government is legally free to ignore the result of a referendum if it so chooses. It could also declare the referendum result void if the Electoral Commission finds that its conduct had been in some way fraudulent. This is where the legal argument about parliament authorising the government to submit its notification under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty comes in. (It did this before the Electoral Commission had completed its examination of the Leave Eu etc. donations. What if the Commission finds against Banks, and rules that the donations were so grossly excessive that it considers the referendum outcome "unsafe"? What if that ruling is not made until after we have, actually, left the EU? That really would be interesting! )

Constitutionally, no government can bind a future government to a particular course of action, simply because it is not government that makes law (saving under enabling legislation), it is parliament (which legislates in stead of the Monarch, whose signature is still required before any parliamentary legislation is legally enforceable). Parliament, with Royal Assent, can repeal or revise any extant law at any time of its choosing.

This is why the various Referendum Acts do not set out to create conditions under which the result of a referendum supplants the power of the Crown, and is why, constitutionally, their results can only be advisory to the government, who must then seek (or not) the assent of parliament (and through parliament the Crown) for any legislative change that may be necessary to realise the referendum outcome.

So, what the government actually did was to give a written assurance to every eligible voter that it would carry through the result of the referendum, but it was not, and could not be, legally obliged to do this. At least, that is how I understand the position.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 March 2019 8:30 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-09 5:04 PM

pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM
I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:
“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”
In what way can that be taken as advisory.………………….

The point about the referendum being advisory appears primarily to be constitutional. Under our constitution only parliament is sovereign, and only the sovereign parliament has the power to enact law.

All parliament did was to authorise the conduct of a referendum, to do which it had to pass an Act of Parliament (The European Union Referendum Act 2015), which was itself introduced under powers granted under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

The result of the referendum is then valid only if the legal framework under which it was conducted was observed to the satisfaction of the Electoral Commission (whose powers come from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which is why the dispute over the legality Arron Banks various donations resides with them).

This leaves the government is legally free to ignore the result of a referendum if it so chooses. It could also declare the referendum result void if the Electoral Commission finds that its conduct had been in some way fraudulent. This is where the legal argument about parliament authorising the government to submit its notification under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty comes in. (It did this before the Electoral Commission had completed its examination of the Leave Eu etc. donations. What if the Commission finds against Banks, and rules that the donations were so grossly excessive that it considers the referendum outcome "unsafe"? What if that ruling is not made until after we have, actually, left the EU? That really would be interesting! )

Constitutionally, no government can bind a future government to a particular course of action, simply because it is not government that makes law (saving under enabling legislation), it is parliament (which legislates in stead of the Monarch, whose signature is still required before any parliamentary legislation is legally enforceable). Parliament, with Royal Assent, can repeal or revise any extant law at any time of its choosing.

This is why the various Referendum Acts do not set out to create conditions under which the result of a referendum supplants the power of the Crown, and is why, constitutionally, their results can only be advisory to the government, who must then seek (or not) the assent of parliament (and through parliament the Crown) for any legislative change that may be necessary to realise the referendum outcome.

So, what the government actually did was to give a written assurance to every eligible voter that it would carry through the result of the referendum, but it was not, and could not be, legally obliged to do this. At least, that is how I understand the position.


So a LOSERS VOTE would be advisory to? ........

Unless you won and then you'd soon change your hypocritical tune ..........

userViolet1956
Posted: 10 March 2019 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


I’ve read Brian’s post and I know the answer to your question Dave why don’t you? If you had really understood or followed the Miller case you would know that the government agrees with him.

It will be interesting to see if leave to appeal is sought against the Court of Appeal decision in the Wilson case heard on 21 February once the written judgement is handed down. I think there is a right of appeal to the Supreme Court but I am not sure. A delay in Brexit of a short period might facilitate a speedy onward appeal process but it’s a bit touch and go to say the least.

This article provides an excellent expose of the issues in the Wilson Case and arguments in favour of it. The Court of Appeal doesn’t always get things right.

http://www.brexitshambles.com/dr-robert-c-palmer-explains-the-significance-of-the-wilson-case-and-the-intriguing-law-behind-it/
userBarryd999
Posted: 10 March 2019 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-10 8:30 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-09 5:04 PM

pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM
I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:
“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”
In what way can that be taken as advisory.………………….

The point about the referendum being advisory appears primarily to be constitutional. Under our constitution only parliament is sovereign, and only the sovereign parliament has the power to enact law.

All parliament did was to authorise the conduct of a referendum, to do which it had to pass an Act of Parliament (The European Union Referendum Act 2015), which was itself introduced under powers granted under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

The result of the referendum is then valid only if the legal framework under which it was conducted was observed to the satisfaction of the Electoral Commission (whose powers come from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which is why the dispute over the legality Arron Banks various donations resides with them).

This leaves the government is legally free to ignore the result of a referendum if it so chooses. It could also declare the referendum result void if the Electoral Commission finds that its conduct had been in some way fraudulent. This is where the legal argument about parliament authorising the government to submit its notification under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty comes in. (It did this before the Electoral Commission had completed its examination of the Leave Eu etc. donations. What if the Commission finds against Banks, and rules that the donations were so grossly excessive that it considers the referendum outcome "unsafe"? What if that ruling is not made until after we have, actually, left the EU? That really would be interesting! )

Constitutionally, no government can bind a future government to a particular course of action, simply because it is not government that makes law (saving under enabling legislation), it is parliament (which legislates in stead of the Monarch, whose signature is still required before any parliamentary legislation is legally enforceable). Parliament, with Royal Assent, can repeal or revise any extant law at any time of its choosing.

This is why the various Referendum Acts do not set out to create conditions under which the result of a referendum supplants the power of the Crown, and is why, constitutionally, their results can only be advisory to the government, who must then seek (or not) the assent of parliament (and through parliament the Crown) for any legislative change that may be necessary to realise the referendum outcome.

So, what the government actually did was to give a written assurance to every eligible voter that it would carry through the result of the referendum, but it was not, and could not be, legally obliged to do this. At least, that is how I understand the position.


So a LOSERS VOTE would be advisory to? ........

Unless you won and then you'd soon change your hypocritical tune ..........



Nope. If its a referendum based on whatever the final deal is and remain then its likely it will be legally binding and the choice will have to be implemented. The numbers are not quite there yet in parliament but they are growing and it will come down to if Article 50 is extended and we fail to agree an outcome as to whether there will be enough support for such a vote. It looks more likely that article 50 will get extended and either Theresas red lines will shift towards a softer Brexit with a customs union or there will be a public vote on the deal or remain. If that happens the government will have lost control of Brexit and parliament will have taken over essentially.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 March 2019 2:33 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Barryd999 - 2019-03-10 10:29 AM

pelmetman - 2019-03-10 8:30 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-09 5:04 PM

pottypam - 2019-03-08 3:27 PM
I don’t usually get involved in these discussions but I am sick and tired of people saying the 2016 Referendum was advisory. The following is a quote from the Government’s leaflet that was sent to every household in the country:
“This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide”
In what way can that be taken as advisory.………………….

The point about the referendum being advisory appears primarily to be constitutional. Under our constitution only parliament is sovereign, and only the sovereign parliament has the power to enact law.

All parliament did was to authorise the conduct of a referendum, to do which it had to pass an Act of Parliament (The European Union Referendum Act 2015), which was itself introduced under powers granted under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

The result of the referendum is then valid only if the legal framework under which it was conducted was observed to the satisfaction of the Electoral Commission (whose powers come from the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000, which is why the dispute over the legality Arron Banks various donations resides with them).

This leaves the government is legally free to ignore the result of a referendum if it so chooses. It could also declare the referendum result void if the Electoral Commission finds that its conduct had been in some way fraudulent. This is where the legal argument about parliament authorising the government to submit its notification under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty comes in. (It did this before the Electoral Commission had completed its examination of the Leave Eu etc. donations. What if the Commission finds against Banks, and rules that the donations were so grossly excessive that it considers the referendum outcome "unsafe"? What if that ruling is not made until after we have, actually, left the EU? That really would be interesting! )

Constitutionally, no government can bind a future government to a particular course of action, simply because it is not government that makes law (saving under enabling legislation), it is parliament (which legislates in stead of the Monarch, whose signature is still required before any parliamentary legislation is legally enforceable). Parliament, with Royal Assent, can repeal or revise any extant law at any time of its choosing.

This is why the various Referendum Acts do not set out to create conditions under which the result of a referendum supplants the power of the Crown, and is why, constitutionally, their results can only be advisory to the government, who must then seek (or not) the assent of parliament (and through parliament the Crown) for any legislative change that may be necessary to realise the referendum outcome.

So, what the government actually did was to give a written assurance to every eligible voter that it would carry through the result of the referendum, but it was not, and could not be, legally obliged to do this. At least, that is how I understand the position.


So a LOSERS VOTE would be advisory to? ........

Unless you won and then you'd soon change your hypocritical tune ..........



Nope. If its a referendum based on whatever the final deal is and remain then its likely it will be legally binding and the choice will have to be implemented. The numbers are not quite there yet in parliament but they are growing and it will come down to if Article 50 is extended and we fail to agree an outcome as to whether there will be enough support for such a vote. It looks more likely that article 50 will get extended and either Theresas red lines will shift towards a softer Brexit with a customs union or there will be a public vote on the deal or remain. If that happens the government will have lost control of Brexit and parliament will have taken over essentially.


Oh I see a Losers Vote will be legally binding ............

Unless of course you lose ........

userViolet1956
Posted: 10 March 2019 2:41 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


No, it would likely be advisory because Parliament is sovereign. However there should be anxious scrutiny of the conduct of campaigners, particularly of pro-Brexit groups given that we now know that they broke the rules the first time round.
userpelmetman
Posted: 10 March 2019 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-10 2:41 PM

No, it would likely be advisory because Parliament is sovereign. However there should be anxious scrutiny of the conduct of campaigners, particularly of pro-Brexit groups given that we now know that they broke the rules the first time round.


And Cameron didn't when he used 9 million of tax payers money? ..........

Oh silly me.......I forgot its Remoaners who make the rules ........

userBarryd999
Posted: 10 March 2019 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-10 2:46 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-10 2:41 PM

No, it would likely be advisory because Parliament is sovereign. However there should be anxious scrutiny of the conduct of campaigners, particularly of pro-Brexit groups given that we now know that they broke the rules the first time round.


And Cameron didn't when he used 9 million of tax payers money? ..........

Oh silly me.......I forgot its Remoaners who make the rules ........



That is correct Dave, he never broke the rules.

userpelmetman
Posted: 10 March 2019 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Barryd999 - 2019-03-10 3:11 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-10 2:46 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-10 2:41 PM

No, it would likely be advisory because Parliament is sovereign. However there should be anxious scrutiny of the conduct of campaigners, particularly of pro-Brexit groups given that we now know that they broke the rules the first time round.


And Cameron didn't when he used 9 million of tax payers money? ..........

Oh silly me.......I forgot its Remoaners who make the rules ........



That is correct Dave, he never broke the rules.



Yeah Barry......coz he is a Remoaner who made the rules .........

userBulletguy
Posted: 10 March 2019 5:58 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-10 5:36 PM

Barryd999 - 2019-03-10 3:11 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-10 2:46 PM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-10 2:41 PM

No, it would likely be advisory because Parliament is sovereign. However there should be anxious scrutiny of the conduct of campaigners, particularly of pro-Brexit groups given that we now know that they broke the rules the first time round.


And Cameron didn't when he used 9 million of tax payers money? ..........

Oh silly me.......I forgot its Remoaners who make the rules ........



That is correct Dave, he never broke the rules.



Yeah Barry......coz he is a Remoaner who made the rules .........

You don't half spout a load of tripe. The laws have been in place for years long before Cameron was PM and the EC regulates.
userantony1969
Posted: 10 March 2019 7:37 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Jesus
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 8:33 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-10 8:30 AM..............................So a LOSERS VOTE would be advisory to? ........

Yes Dave, as you should have understood from what I wrote.

Under the UK constitution, any referendum is advisory. All a referendum is, is a giant public opinion poll conducted under electoral rules. The conduct of the referendum has to have been legal (which in this instance was not the case) but, even if it were flawlessly legal, all it could do is indicate a public preference, or desire, for the outcome. It notifies parliament of a public demand for parliament to consider the issue. It cannot bind parliament to carry out the wishes of the public, because it is parliament that is sovereign. That is the essence of the British constitution.

"British laws for British subjects" was one of the reasons people voted for Brexit. Its a bit ironic that those who object to Britain being subject to laws made in the EU, now object to Britain being subject to law made (over several hundred years) in Britain. Whose law, apart from Dave's law, would you wish Britain to use instead? Martian law?

If you're not convinced, find your thinking cap, put it on, and read the article Veronica linked to above, from beginning to end. It lays it out far more clearly, and authoritatively, (though at some length) than I ever could.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


antony1969 - 2019-03-10 7:37 PM
Jesus

Not a legally sound argument, Antony. Facts before beliefs?
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 March 2019 9:02 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 8:33 AM

pelmetman - 2019-03-10 8:30 AM..............................So a LOSERS VOTE would be advisory to? ........

Yes Dave, as you should have understood from what I wrote.

Under the UK constitution, any referendum is advisory. All a referendum is, is a giant public opinion poll conducted under electoral rules. The conduct of the referendum has to have been legal (which in this instance was not the case) but, even if it were flawlessly legal, all it could do is indicate a public preference, or desire, for the outcome. It notifies parliament of a public demand for parliament to consider the issue. It cannot bind parliament to carry out the wishes of the public, because it is parliament that is sovereign. That is the essence of the British constitution.

"British laws for British subjects" was one of the reasons people voted for Brexit. Its a bit ironic that those who object to Britain being subject to laws made in the EU, now object to Britain being subject to law made (over several hundred years) in Britain. Whose law, apart from Dave's law, would you wish Britain to use instead? Martian law?

If you're not convinced, find your thinking cap, put it on, and read the article Veronica linked to above, from beginning to end. It lays it out far more clearly, and authoritatively, (though at some length) than I ever could.


So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............

Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian!

Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?
userpottypam
Posted: 11 March 2019 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Pops in from time to time

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Was the referendum illegal? Depends what is meant by “the referendum”. It was instituted by an Act of Parliament, so therefore the holding of it was legal.

Was the carrying out of the referendum legal? I don’ think anyone has suggested that there was anything illegal about way it was organised, no rigging of ballots, destroying of ballot papers, etc.

Was the conduct of the campaigners illegal? It appears that there may have been financial irregularities but, so far, no criminal charges have been brought.

Was the implementation of the referendum legal? Yes, Article 50 was implemented by an Act of Parliament.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 9:25 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pottypam - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM

Was the referendum illegal? Depends what is meant by “the referendum”. It was instituted by an Act of Parliament, so therefore the holding of it was legal.

Was the carrying out of the referendum legal? I don’ think anyone has suggested that there was anything illegal about way it was organised, no rigging of ballots, destroying of ballot papers, etc.

Was the conduct of the campaigners illegal? It appears that there may have been financial irregularities but, so far, no criminal charges have been brought.

Was the implementation of the referendum legal? Yes, Article 50 was implemented by an Act of Parliament.

On the last point, no. First, the referendum decision has not yet been implemented: we have not yet left. Second, as the article linked above by Veronica sets out, the article 50 notification was submitted on a false prospectus - that the conduct of the referendum, and so its outcome, cannot be said to have been constitutional, because of the alleged (but as yet unproved) fraud perpetrated by the leave campaign.

Charges may not yet have been brought, but that does not mean they will not be brought when all the evidence has been assembled and evaluated. If they are, and if they are proved in court, where would that leave us?

We should have submitted a notification under the Lisbon Treaty that was not in accordance with our own constitution, so cannot be valid under that treaty.

It seems to me that the legality of the referendum, and so all decisions made based on its outcome, have to be tested legally before we leave. It would be completely daft to leave, and then find we had no actual legal right to have done so. Where would that leave us?
userViolet1956
Posted: 11 March 2019 9:50 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


I believe Pam’s statement about the law as it stands, as expressed in the Judgement of Mr Justice Ouseley and upheld by the Court of Appeal is right. Any judgement of the Court of Appeal is authoritative unless overturned by the Supreme Court. Though as is often said by Judges, they make judgments according to the law not morals.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-11 9:53 AM
userantony1969
Posted: 11 March 2019 10:05 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 8:34 AM

antony1969 - 2019-03-10 7:37 PM
Jesus

Not a legally sound argument, Antony. Facts before beliefs?


You can argue all you want on here no one is changing their minds on anything ... My call to Jesus is simply for him to perform a miracle and shut the whingers up
userpottypam
Posted: 11 March 2019 11:08 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Pops in from time to time

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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:25 AM

pottypam - 2019-03-11 9:09

We should have submitted a notification under the Lisbon Treaty that was not in accordance with our own constitution, so cannot be valid under that treaty /QUOTE]

Sorry Brian, don’t understand what you are saying here. Do you mean that the notification submitted should not have been in accordance with our constitution ? Or do you mean that the notification was not in accordance with our constitution? Either way, we don’t actually have a constitution, we have laws based on Acts of Parliament.
userViolet1956
Posted: 11 March 2019 12:39 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Here's a good article from the oracle on British Constitution

https://www.bl.uk/magna-carta/articles/britains-unwritten-constitution
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 12:43 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pottypam - 2019-03-11 11:08 AM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:25 AM
We should have submitted a notification under the Lisbon Treaty that was not in accordance with our own constitution, so cannot be valid under that treaty


Sorry Brian, don’t understand what you are saying here. Do you mean that the notification submitted should not have been in accordance with our constitution ? Or do you mean that the notification was not in accordance with our constitution? Either way, we don’t actually have a constitution, we have laws based on Acts of Parliament.

Sorry Pam, I was using "should" in the conditional sense, not the imperative. What I meant is that as the referendum vote may have been influenced by the alleged funding irregularities, it may turn out to be unreliable, and so void. This link, posted above by Veronica, sets it out best: http://tinyurl.com/y3pgpm8e

To be valid under the Lisbon Treaty, the Article 50 notification has to be submitted in accordance with the constitution of the state concerned.

If the referendum result was not gained in accordance with the relevant UK laws (i.e. the Acts governing elections and referendums, including the 2016 Referendum Act) - which it seems it may not have been - then it would not have been gained in accordance with our constitution, and the government would have been wrong to rely on the referendum result when seeking parliamentary approval to submit the Article 50 notification.

It is not that we don't have a constitution, just that we don't have is a written constitution - where it is all spelled out in one document. As you say, it is built up from a variety of laws (a mix of common and statute law) that, in some cases, pre-date the existence of parliament. That was the reason the Government lost the "Gina Miller" case. The law the government tried to rely upon originated with Henry VIII, but could not be invoked by the Executive alone (the government), only by the sovereign power (which was then Henry, but is now Parliament).

This seems potentially another case of the government trying to push through its agenda without having (albeit for a different reason) the constitutional power to do so. It seems that issue can only be determined via the courts, and ultimately, as the issue is constitutional, by the Supreme Court.
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 March 2019 4:22 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian!

Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?


Really? ..........

Why does the EC website say this???? ..........

"Report on the regulation of campaigners at the EU referendum

We have found that that rules put in place specifically for the EU referendum worked well. We set out a number of recommendations for changes to be incorporated into the legislation that underpins UK-wide referendums."

Perhaps you could link to where it says on the Electoral Commission website it states....... "the Referendum was not legal" ? .........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-11 4:25 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-11 4:22 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM
pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ;-) ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go :D ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian! :-D
Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?

Really? *-) ..........
Why does the EC website say this???? ;-) ..........
"Report on the regulation of campaigners at the EU referendum
We have found that that rules put in place specifically for the EU referendum worked well. We set out a number of recommendations for changes to be incorporated into the legislation that underpins UK-wide referendums."
Perhaps you could link to where it says on the Electoral Commission website it states....... "the Referendum was not legal" ? :D .........

Not bothered what the EC website says on the subject - though I'm shocked that you would quote them! :-D It was a UK referendum, held under UK rules, so it is UK requirements it had to meet.

This is the article that Veronica linked to, in which the reasoning, legal arguments, and comments regarding what the Electoral Commission enquiries have revealed are set out. http://tinyurl.com/y3pgpm8e

If you read it all, resisting the temptation to top-slice it - which seems your usual approach to anything longer that a tweet - you will see that the Electoral Commission are unhappy with the funding of the leave campaign.

If there were funding irregularities in contravention of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (as the Electoral Commission seems to think, which is why they are looking into the leave campaign's funding streams), then the referendum result may well have been illegally gained, and may yet be ruled void and unconstitutional. At present, you won't find a great big sign hanging up somewhere, saying "EU referendum illegal". You'll just get a judgement that says whether or not there were infringements of the funding rules, and if so whether they are sufficiently serious that they call into question the referendum result.

After all, out of the 33.5 million votes cast, it only needed 636,000 (2%) to have been unfairly influenced for the result to have been fraudulent. So just two people in every hundred.

Edited by Brian Kirby 2019-03-11 5:54 PM
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 March 2019 6:42 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 5:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 4:22 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM
pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian!
Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?

Really? ..........
Why does the EC website say this???? ..........
"Report on the regulation of campaigners at the EU referendum
We have found that that rules put in place specifically for the EU referendum worked well. We set out a number of recommendations for changes to be incorporated into the legislation that underpins UK-wide referendums."
Perhaps you could link to where it says on the Electoral Commission website it states....... "the Referendum was not legal" ? .........

Not bothered what the EC website says on the subject - though I'm shocked that you would quote them! It was a UK referendum, held under UK rules, so it is UK requirements it had to meet.

This is the article that Veronica linked to, in which the reasoning, legal arguments, and comments regarding what the Electoral Commission enquiries have revealed are set out. http://tinyurl.com/y3pgpm8e

If you read it all, resisting the temptation to top-slice it - which seems your usual approach to anything longer that a tweet - you will see that the Electoral Commission are unhappy with the funding of the leave campaign.

If there were funding irregularities in contravention of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (as the Electoral Commission seems to think, which is why they are looking into the leave campaign's funding streams), then the referendum result may well have been illegally gained, and may yet be ruled void and unconstitutional. At present, you won't find a great big sign hanging up somewhere, saying "EU referendum illegal". You'll just get a judgement that says whether or not there were infringements of the funding rules, and if so whether they are sufficiently serious that they call into question the referendum result.

After all, out of the 33.5 million votes cast, it only needed 636,000 (2%) to have been unfairly influenced for the result to have been fraudulent. So just two people in every hundred.


So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

Typical Remoaner hypocrisy from yourself as per usual .............

Roll on the 29th ............

userViolet1956
Posted: 11 March 2019 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 5:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 4:22 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM
pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian!
Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?

Really? ..........
Why does the EC website say this???? ..........
"Report on the regulation of campaigners at the EU referendum
We have found that that rules put in place specifically for the EU referendum worked well. We set out a number of recommendations for changes to be incorporated into the legislation that underpins UK-wide referendums."
Perhaps you could link to where it says on the Electoral Commission website it states....... "the Referendum was not legal" ? .........

Not bothered what the EC website says on the subject - though I'm shocked that you would quote them! It was a UK referendum, held under UK rules, so it is UK requirements it had to meet.

This is the article that Veronica linked to, in which the reasoning, legal arguments, and comments regarding what the Electoral Commission enquiries have revealed are set out. http://tinyurl.com/y3pgpm8e

If you read it all, resisting the temptation to top-slice it - which seems your usual approach to anything longer that a tweet - you will see that the Electoral Commission are unhappy with the funding of the leave campaign.

If there were funding irregularities in contravention of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (as the Electoral Commission seems to think, which is why they are looking into the leave campaign's funding streams), then the referendum result may well have been illegally gained, and may yet be ruled void and unconstitutional. At present, you won't find a great big sign hanging up somewhere, saying "EU referendum illegal". You'll just get a judgement that says whether or not there were infringements of the funding rules, and if so whether they are sufficiently serious that they call into question the referendum result.

After all, out of the 33.5 million votes cast, it only needed 636,000 (2%) to have been unfairly influenced for the result to have been fraudulent. So just two people in every hundred.


So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

Typical Remoaner hypocrisy from yourself as per usual .............

Roll on the 29th ............

The government were obliged to inform the electorate of its view in a balanced way. The leaflet dealt with the arguments for and against. Its spending on the leaflet was entirely lawful unless proved otherwise. Whereas we now know that there was unlawful overspend by Brexit groups.
userjumpstart
Posted: 11 March 2019 6:57 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Pillar of the forums

Posts: 749
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So what. Speculative infringement of funding. Grasping straws. As it stands it’s legal.
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 March 2019 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Violet1956 - 2019-03-11 6:55 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 5:51 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 4:22 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 9:09 AM
pelmetman - 2019-03-11 9:02 AM...………………….
So the 2016 referendum wasn't illegal ............
Glad we've got that sorted with just 18 days to go ..........

Dave: read, then comment. Either that, or tell us which language we should use to communicate with you, since plain English clearly doesn't work. However, I should warn you that I'm not even remotely proficient in Martian!
Short answer? As I said above, according to the investigations carried out by the Electoral Commission, the 2016 referendum was not legal. Why do I endlessly have to repeat myself?

Really? ..........
Why does the EC website say this???? ..........
"Report on the regulation of campaigners at the EU referendum
We have found that that rules put in place specifically for the EU referendum worked well. We set out a number of recommendations for changes to be incorporated into the legislation that underpins UK-wide referendums."
Perhaps you could link to where it says on the Electoral Commission website it states....... "the Referendum was not legal" ? .........

Not bothered what the EC website says on the subject - though I'm shocked that you would quote them! It was a UK referendum, held under UK rules, so it is UK requirements it had to meet.

This is the article that Veronica linked to, in which the reasoning, legal arguments, and comments regarding what the Electoral Commission enquiries have revealed are set out. http://tinyurl.com/y3pgpm8e

If you read it all, resisting the temptation to top-slice it - which seems your usual approach to anything longer that a tweet - you will see that the Electoral Commission are unhappy with the funding of the leave campaign.

If there were funding irregularities in contravention of the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (as the Electoral Commission seems to think, which is why they are looking into the leave campaign's funding streams), then the referendum result may well have been illegally gained, and may yet be ruled void and unconstitutional. At present, you won't find a great big sign hanging up somewhere, saying "EU referendum illegal". You'll just get a judgement that says whether or not there were infringements of the funding rules, and if so whether they are sufficiently serious that they call into question the referendum result.

After all, out of the 33.5 million votes cast, it only needed 636,000 (2%) to have been unfairly influenced for the result to have been fraudulent. So just two people in every hundred.


So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

Typical Remoaner hypocrisy from yourself as per usual .............

Roll on the 29th ............

The government were obliged to inform the electorate of its view in a balanced way. The leaflet dealt with the arguments for and against. Its spending on the leaflet was entirely lawful unless proved otherwise. Whereas we now know that there was unlawful overspend by Brexit groups.


You are a Remoaner Veronica ......So you would say that .........

I seem to recall the government also said we'd have an emergency budget, an immediate recession and 850,000 job losses by now ...........

So their balanced view has been completely wrong ...........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-11 7:01 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 11 March 2019 7:05 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.
userpelmetman
Posted: 11 March 2019 7:10 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.


1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......

2........The Remoaner biased EC investigate our Remoaner biased government? ........

There's more chance of them finding Unicorn sh*te .........

userViolet1956
Posted: 11 March 2019 7:12 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


No Dave I say that there was nothing unlawful about the 9m spent on the government leaflet because it is fact.

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-11 7:24 PM
userBulletguy
Posted: 11 March 2019 8:30 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-03-11 7:10 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.


1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......

You're clutching out for a lifebelt with pathetic pedantry instead of comprehending Brians very clear explanation.
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 March 2019 12:41 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-03-11 8:30 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 7:10 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.


1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......

You're clutching out for a lifebelt with pathetic pedantry instead of comprehending Brians very clear explanation.


I take it you cant show where the EC says the referendum was illegal either? ............

So you've been caught out peddling FAKE NEWS yet again .........

Only 17 scaremongering days to go ...........

userBulletguy
Posted: 12 March 2019 1:44 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-03-12 12:41 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-11 8:30 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 7:10 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.


1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......

You're clutching out for a lifebelt with pathetic pedantry instead of comprehending Brians very clear explanation.


I take it you cant show where the EC says the referendum was illegal either? ............

Drop the silly pedantry and read Brians points 1 and 2 plus bear in mind Banks is still under criminal investigation by the NCA.
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 March 2019 2:51 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-03-12 1:44 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-12 12:41 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-11 8:30 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 7:10 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........

2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.

They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?

There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.

2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.


1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......

You're clutching out for a lifebelt with pathetic pedantry instead of comprehending Brians very clear explanation.


I take it you cant show where the EC says the referendum was illegal either? ............

Drop the silly pedantry and read Brians points 1 and 2 plus bear in mind Banks is still under criminal investigation by the NCA.


PROVE ME WRONG DUMB DUMB ...........

By linking or copying from the EC website where they state that the EU referendum in 2016 was illegal? ........

You cant can you because you have been caught out spreading FAKE NEWS ........

BTW has Banks been charged yet? ........there's only 17 days to go ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-12 2:54 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 March 2019 6:29 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-11 7:10 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-11 7:05 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-11 6:42 PM...……………….
1 So you are peddling FAKE NEWS by saying the referendum was illegal ...........
2 I note you're not bothered by Cameron using 9 million of taxpayers money to unfairly influence the result ..............

1 Nope, I'm repeating what the Electoral Commission (EC) has said. Based on that, what I have said is that there is suspicion of electoral fraud which, if proved, would be illegal.
They are currently investigating the funding of the leave campaign, as there is evidence that at least some of its sources were illegal. So, declaring anything illegal at present would be premature. You really don't get this legal stuff, do you?
There has first to be reasonable grounds for suspicion. Tick. Then the grounds have to be investigated. Tick Based on the outcome, there has to be a review of the evidence to see if there is a case to be brought. No tick yet. If there is a case, it has to be tried. No tick yet. If it is tried, and is proved, it can then be said that the acts were illegal. No tick yet. All the EC is saying at the moment is that they smell a rat.
2 If there is evidence that the government used excessive funding, or used foreign funds, I would expect the EC to investigate that in exactly the same way as they are investigating the leave campaign funding. But, it would make no difference to the end result because, whichever side was found to have acted fraudulently, the referendum result would be suspect and, with any luck, void.

1........So you cant show where the EC has said "the 2016 referendum is illegal" can you? .......
2........The Remoaner biased EC investigate our Remoaner biased government? ........
There's more chance of them finding Unicorn sh*te .........

1 But as I pointed out, I have not made that claim, so how could I give evidence for something I haven't said? Can you think of some other things that I havent said, that I would be unable to prove? Is there a point?
2 How you choose to portray the EC and the government, or whatever names you call them, will not alter the outcomes of the investigations, will it?

I note you haven't been looking at the EC website to find the evidence you are asking others to provide for you. Why not? It isn't difficult, and it's very revealing! Just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait and see what happens. Its getting interesting, though!
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 March 2019 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:29 PM

I note you haven't been looking at the EC website to find the evidence you are asking others to provide for you. Why not? It isn't difficult, and it's very revealing! Just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait and see what happens. Its getting interesting, though!


Oh yes I have .............and I cant find anywhere where it states ....."The EU Referendum was ILLEGAL" ..........

userpelmetman
Posted: 12 March 2019 6:46 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


I agree with the above .............



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-12 6:49 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 12 March 2019 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-12 6:46 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:29 PM
I note you haven't been looking at the EC website to find the evidence you are asking others to provide for you. Why not? It isn't difficult, and it's very revealing! Just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait and see what happens. Its getting interesting, though!

Oh yes I have .............and I cant find anywhere where it states ....."The EU Referendum was ILLEGAL" ..........

But, as I keep telling you, it won't say that because the investigations are not yet complete. This is the UK, not the wild west!

We tend to gather evidence, evaluate it, bring charges, and try people - before finding them guilty. Can't imagine why, but think it may have something to with the rule of law. But then, you aren't in favour of that, are you? Odd!
userpelmetman
Posted: 12 March 2019 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-12 6:46 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:29 PM
I note you haven't been looking at the EC website to find the evidence you are asking others to provide for you. Why not? It isn't difficult, and it's very revealing! Just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait and see what happens. Its getting interesting, though!

Oh yes I have .............and I cant find anywhere where it states ....."The EU Referendum was ILLEGAL" ..........

But, as I keep telling you, it won't say that because the investigations are not yet complete. This is the UK, not the wild west!

We tend to gather evidence, evaluate it, bring charges, and try people - before finding them guilty. Can't imagine why, but think it may have something to with the rule of law. But then, you aren't in favour of that, are you? Odd!


Did you just write that Brian????? ............

You lot decided Banks was guilty years ago ..........

Still no sign of him being charged though .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 13 March 2019 12:01 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-12 7:07 PM....................Did you just write that Brian????? ............
You lot decided Banks was guilty years ago ..........
Still no sign of him being charged though .........

I think you are confusing opinion with legal process.
userBulletguy
Posted: 13 March 2019 2:22 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:59 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-12 6:46 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-12 6:29 PM
I note you haven't been looking at the EC website to find the evidence you are asking others to provide for you. Why not? It isn't difficult, and it's very revealing! Just like the rest of us, you'll have to wait and see what happens. Its getting interesting, though!

Oh yes I have .............and I cant find anywhere where it states ....."The EU Referendum was ILLEGAL" ..........

But, as I keep telling you, it won't say that because the investigations are not yet complete. This is the UK, not the wild west!

We tend to gather evidence, evaluate it, bring charges, and try people - before finding them guilty. Can't imagine why, but think it may have something to with the rule of law. But then, you aren't in favour of that, are you? Odd!

Processing logic with a bloke who voted Brexit because he wants to "think he's British" is a futile task.
userFast Pat
Posted: 13 March 2019 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1525
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Can we all agree that it's time to rename Remain & Leave?
I suggest Right & Wrong.
userViolet1956
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


I found the link to the full written judgement of Court of Appeal in the Wilson case dated 4.3.2019 for anyone who wants to read it and hasn't found it themselves.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/304.html


In short it was not established that the referendum was illegal or that it had been shown that the illegalites identified by the Law Commision were material in relation to the outcome. Just as importantly perhaps the Court saw the challenge through the courts as "politics by other means" and that it was inappropriate for the Courts to interfere with the political process. Parliament had taken control of Brexit and it is parliament that has the inalienable right to make its own decision about whether the Law Commision's findings should be a consideration in its decisions on how and if Brexit should go ahead.

Can't see that leave to appeal to the Supreme Court was requested by those acting for Wilson et al.

Enemies of the people eh? I think not.
userFast Pat
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1525
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Location: Hymer Exsis 588


The actual Act



(AA.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments AA.jpg (91KB - 45 downloads)
userViolet1956
Posted: 14 March 2019 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM

The actual Act


Sorry FP does this refer to my post or another one? I can't work it out.

Veronica
userViolet1956
Posted: 14 March 2019 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


I get it now that you have posted the terms of the Referendum Bill. No reply needed FP. Thanks.
Veronica
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM

The actual Act


So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........

How very Stalinist ........

userFast Pat
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Epic contributor

Posts: 1525
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Location: Hymer Exsis 588


pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM

The actual Act


So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........

How very Stalinist ........


No I have a problem with liars like yourself, who say it was a legally binding referendum when it wasn't.
userpelmetman
Posted: 15 March 2019 9:01 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Fast Pat - 2019-03-15 8:56 AM

pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM

Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM

The actual Act


So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........

How very Stalinist ........


No I have a problem with liars like yourself, who say it was a legally binding referendum when it wasn't.


So you don't have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ........

Because all your bleating on here would indicate the opposite ......Comrade .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 15 March 2019 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!
userpottypam
Posted: 15 March 2019 8:05 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
Pops in from time to time

Posts: 123
100
Location: South West Scotland


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!


A turn out of 72% - higher than in many General Election and most certainly higher than any European Election.

I wonder how many of those who voted Remain were Irish Citizens?

How many who voted Remain ever voted in a European Parliament Election? Given that the turnout in the 2014 election was only 32.6%, not many.

I have to admit to being responsible for one of the spoiled votes in 2016. I honestly could not decide so decided to spoil my vote and go along with the majority decision.

Whether the Referendum was advisory or not and whether it was illegal is now irrelevant. Parliament voted to instigate Article 50, so like it or not, it is now Law.
userBulletguy
Posted: 15 March 2019 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pottypam - 2019-03-15 8:05 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!


A turn out of 72% - higher than in many General Election and most certainly higher than any European Election.

I wonder how many of those who voted Remain were Irish Citizens?

How many who voted Remain ever voted in a European Parliament Election? Given that the turnout in the 2014 election was only 32.6%, not many.

I have to admit to being responsible for one of the spoiled votes in 2016. I honestly could not decide so decided to spoil my vote and go along with the majority decision.

Whether the Referendum was advisory or not and whether it was illegal is now irrelevant. Parliament voted to instigate Article 50, so like it or not, it is now Law.

That still won't alter the 37% Leave figure i'm afraid Pam. Brexiters incessant parroting of "will of the people" would be more honest if they began saying they want to see "the will of 37% of the electorate honoured"......but that doesn't quite have the same 'appeal' does it?

That percent figure will also now have undoubtedly decreased due to the time gap which has brought more first time voters in who couldn't vote at the time of the referendum, not to mention the vast devastation we've seen post referendum with businesses relocating and the countries economy trashed. This was why a peoples vote was always feared by Brexiters as they saw their "win" (because that's all what was important to them....'we won, you losers lost, get over it' etc) was in serious peril.

I'm surprised to see you feel the legality which is still under scrutiny, as 'irrelevant'. If guilt of meddling and wrong doings is found proven i could never be comfortable in knowing democracy had been subverted by external 'interference' to achieve a political aim.

A50 can be revoked which is still a major worry for Brexiters. https://tinyurl.com/y5h8jguz
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 7:40 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!


So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........

Of course you will .............

Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2019 1:04 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.

I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.

If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 4:00 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
50005000500050005000200010005001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.

I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.

If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.


Oh how very hypocritical of you ........

So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......

You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2019 4:58 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 5:39 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
50005000500050005000200010005001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?


Cobblers Brian ..........

If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:08 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?


Cobblers Brian ..........

If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

Yet interestingly you decided not to elaborate further on that wild claim. Easy to see why though your obsessive Germanophobia whilst puzzling, is somewhat amusing.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk

Indices Difference

Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 3.72% higher than in Germany

Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 5.72% higher than in Germany

Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 11.05% higher than in Germany

Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 18.95% higher than in Germany

Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 3.52% higher than in Germany

Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 12.40% lower than in Germany

https://tinyurl.com/yxcqgj8w
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:19 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
50005000500050005000200010005001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-03-16 6:08 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?


Cobblers Brian ..........

If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

Yet interestingly you decided not to elaborate further on that wild claim. Easy to see why though your obsessive Germanophobia whilst puzzling, is somewhat amusing.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk

Indices Difference

Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 3.72% higher than in Germany

Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 5.72% higher than in Germany

Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 11.05% higher than in Germany

Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 18.95% higher than in Germany

Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 3.52% higher than in Germany

Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 12.40% lower than in Germany

https://tinyurl.com/yxcqgj8w


.........You have thought about what you've just posted I assume? ........

So basically you are saying we have more income than Germany........

Why else would we be able afford expensive rents and restaurants etc etc etc? .......

In spite of Brexit .......



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-16 6:20 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?

Cobblers Brian ..........
If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

So no reply: just another badly informed question.

When we you last in Germany? About the same time you were in Ukraine, or earlier? You should go and have a proper look around. The standard of living enjoyed by the average German is visibly superior to that of the average Brit.

What you are doing is looking at the present directions of travel of the two economies. The German economy is slowing, but from a high base, while the UK economy is plateauing, but at a lower base.

Just in the interests of accuracy, I should probably point out that the UK is still in the EU, and the recent faltering of its economy relates to our decision to leave the EU - as perceived by the rest of the world. Oh yes, and that Brexit was only voted for by 37% of the UK electorate. No moral high ground there!
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:34 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
50005000500050005000200010005001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?

Cobblers Brian ..........
If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

So no reply: just another badly informed question.

When we you last in Germany? About the same time you were in Ukraine, or earlier? You should go and have a proper look around. The standard of living enjoyed by the average German is visibly superior to that of the average Brit.

What you are doing is looking at the present directions of travel of the two economies. The German economy is slowing, but from a high base, while the UK economy is plateauing, but at a lower base.

Just in the interests of accuracy, I should probably point out that the UK is still in the EU, and the recent faltering of its economy relates to our decision to leave the EU - as perceived by the rest of the world. Oh yes, and that Brexit was only voted for by 37% of the UK electorate. No moral high ground there!


So your point is?.......Germany has spent our money wisely? .........

Oh and the EU is faltering because of Brexit .........

I thought you told us they didn't need us .....

BTW I'll remember that 37% should you win a "LOSERS VOTE" by 37% or less ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:40 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
5000500010001001001001002525
Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 6:19 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-16 6:08 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?


Cobblers Brian ..........

If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

Yet interestingly you decided not to elaborate further on that wild claim. Easy to see why though your obsessive Germanophobia whilst puzzling, is somewhat amusing.

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/germany/uk

Indices Difference

Consumer Prices in United Kingdom are 3.72% higher than in Germany

Consumer Prices Including Rent in United Kingdom are 5.72% higher than in Germany

Rent Prices in United Kingdom are 11.05% higher than in Germany

Restaurant Prices in United Kingdom are 18.95% higher than in Germany

Groceries Prices in United Kingdom are 3.52% higher than in Germany

Local Purchasing Power in United Kingdom is 12.40% lower than in Germany

https://tinyurl.com/yxcqgj8w


.........You have thought about what you've just posted I assume? ........

So basically you are saying we have more income than Germany........

Why else would we be able afford expensive rents and restaurants etc etc etc? .......

In spite of Brexit .......

10 minutes is nowhere near enough to read and digest those links. I suggest you try it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
50005000500050005000200010005001001002525
Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:27 PM

What you are doing is looking at the present directions of travel of the two economies. The German economy is slowing, but from a high base, while the UK economy is plateauing, but at a lower base.



I thought I'd savor this little nugget ........

So what your saying is..... we wont suffer from Boom & Bust in the forth coming global recession ......

I actually think the UK economy will get a post Brexit boost from all those MILLIONS of businesses who have sat on their cash .........

Unless Corbyn gets in .........

Then they'd bugger off to Spain like me if they have any sense ........

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 16 March 2019 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 6:34 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:27 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?

Cobblers Brian ..........
If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

So no reply: just another badly informed question.

When we you last in Germany? About the same time you were in Ukraine, or earlier? You should go and have a proper look around. The standard of living enjoyed by the average German is visibly superior to that of the average Brit.

What you are doing is looking at the present directions of travel of the two economies. The German economy is slowing, but from a high base, while the UK economy is plateauing, but at a lower base.

Just in the interests of accuracy, I should probably point out that the UK is still in the EU, and the recent faltering of its economy relates to our decision to leave the EU - as perceived by the rest of the world. Oh yes, and that Brexit was only voted for by 37% of the UK electorate. No moral high ground there!

So your point is?.......Germany has spent our money wisely? .........
Oh and the EU is faltering because of Brexit .........
I thought you told us they didn't need us .....
BTW I'll remember that 37% should you win a "LOSERS VOTE" by 37% or less ......

You endlessly ignore replies to your ill-informed posts, and refuse to answer any questions asked in them (which itself speaks volumes).

Have you taken account of the teensy weensy little fact that just like the UK, Germany is a net contributor to the EU (actually the largest net contributor) so on balance it is more probable that we are spending German money, than that they are spending ours?

You may also wish to take into account that the level of contributions to the EU budget is set relative to each countries economic performance, so the only reason Germany contributes more than the UK, is because its economy is more productive.

I guess you'd be totally shocked to learn that France also contributes more than the UK, for the same reason.

Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.
userBulletguy
Posted: 16 March 2019 7:07 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?

Cobblers Brian ..........
If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

So no reply: just another badly informed question.

When we you last in Germany? About the same time you were in Ukraine, or earlier? You should go and have a proper look around. The standard of living enjoyed by the average German is visibly superior to that of the average Brit.

Very much so. Property prices (outside major cities) in particular are significantly cheaper than UK, and by Brit standards are way better built and what we would consider luxurious.

A German friend on retiring sold his large 4 bed detached property two years ago for a staggering £145k and downsized to a 3 bed apartment he's bought outright for £38k....and that included his legal fees! His apartment is in a small village location and comparing 'like for like' the absolute cheapest flat in my area is £140k for a 2 bed.....and they are extremely small.
userpelmetman
Posted: 16 March 2019 7:14 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

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Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM

Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.


The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........

Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......

Just askin ........

userBarryd999
Posted: 16 March 2019 10:28 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Lord of the posts

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Bulletguy - 2019-03-16 7:07 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:27 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 5:39 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 4:58 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 4:00 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 1:04 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:40 AM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-15 6:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-15 8:34 AM
Fast Pat - 2019-03-14 11:23 AM
The actual Act

So you have a problem with the government carrying out the will of the people? ..........
How very Stalinist ........

No, but some of us find calling the opinion of 37% of the people "the will of the people" deliciously Stalinist! Joe would be really proud of you Comrade!

So if 37% of the people win a "Losers Vote" you wont claim to have won? ...........
Of course you will .............
Because Remoaners are 100% full fat Hypocrites .........

Not much point in asking a question, and then giving the answer, is there/? Especially when you get the answer wrong.
I'm not interested in "winning", and have no desire to gloat and parade my tiny "victory" as a way to annoy those who voted to leave. There are more important things in life.
If Brexit is reversed, it will be the whole United Kingdom (including Brexiters) that "wins", and probably our shattered political system as well.

Oh how very hypocritical of you ........
So you'd claim the moral high ground using the same pathetic excuses with which you have used tp lambaste the Brexiteers victory .......
You really are quite shameless aintcha Brian? .........

Hypocrisy? What "hypocrisy"? Lambaste the Brexiteer's "victory"? How? Where is the "shame" in wanting the whole UK to benefit from an economically sensible decision? What is good about inflicting economic loss on an entire country? In pursuit of what? Imaginary fears?

Cobblers Brian ..........
If that's the case why is the UK doing better than Germany......IN SPITE OF BREXIT ? .......

So no reply: just another badly informed question.

When we you last in Germany? About the same time you were in Ukraine, or earlier? You should go and have a proper look around. The standard of living enjoyed by the average German is visibly superior to that of the average Brit.

Very much so. Property prices (outside major cities) in particular are significantly cheaper than UK, and by Brit standards are way better built and what we would consider luxurious.

A German friend on retiring sold his large 4 bed detached property two years ago for a staggering £145k and downsized to a 3 bed apartment he's bought outright for £38k....and that included his legal fees! His apartment is in a small village location and comparing 'like for like' the absolute cheapest flat in my area is £140k for a 2 bed.....and they are extremely small.


Thats pretty good! Maybe the Brexiteers should secure a clause in the withdrawal agreement that all remainers can have freedom of movement and guaranteed citizenship if they promise to f*ck off. Ive lost count how many times Ive been called a traitor and should f*ck off and live abroad so if the Brexiteers can secure that then I will and they can do what they like then. £38k? I could see myself in lederhosen drinking decent beer out of a massive two litre glass on top of a mountain in Bavaria. Best flog Rock God Towers before we leave though in case it ends up being worth twenty quid post Brexit and ill go. Who is happy with that?
userBulletguy
Posted: 17 March 2019 12:33 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Barryd999 - 2019-03-16 10:28 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-16 7:07 PM

Very much so. Property prices (outside major cities) in particular are significantly cheaper than UK, and by Brit standards are way better built and what we would consider luxurious.

A German friend on retiring sold his large 4 bed detached property two years ago for a staggering £145k and downsized to a 3 bed apartment he's bought outright for £38k....and that included his legal fees! His apartment is in a small village location and comparing 'like for like' the absolute cheapest flat in my area is £140k for a 2 bed.....and they are extremely small.


Thats pretty good!

His house was 4 double sz bedrooms, 2 bath, large lounge diner off, kitchen, utility room. with large garden to rear with mature trees. Detached single car garage plus 1 bed apartment, lounge and wet room. When he told me how much it had sold for i knew the price of his apartment would be crazily low too.

Didn't even need decorate or anything. It was ready to move into. Quality build and spacious, not like the shoddy rabbit hutch houses we build here that get thrown up in a matter of weeks and priced at silly money.
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2019 3:49 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2019 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!


Fortunately it wont be the UK left holding the short straw.......what ever cr*p deal we get .......

Time you woke up Brian ......and accepted the EU as it stands is going down the pan ......

Whether you Europhyles can rescue it from the U bend is debatable ......

Frankly I wouldn't bother trying to save sh*te ......

userBulletguy
Posted: 18 March 2019 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;

UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2019 7:04 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;

UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.


2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 18 March 2019 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


The special one

Posts: 11459
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Location: Cheshire. Ford Transit Autosleeper Duetto


pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;

UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.


2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2019 8:47 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 8:32 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM

Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM

Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.

If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89

I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;

UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.


2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.


My mistake .......

Just re read Brian's link.........2015 is so yesterday .......

It's interesting link though.......seeing as it shows our gdp per capita is better than Germany's........and their poverty levels are worse than the UK's ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-18 9:01 PM
userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2019 9:21 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-18 8:47 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 8:32 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.
If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89
I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;
UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.

2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.

My mistake .......
Just re read Brian's link.........2015 is so yesterday .......
It's interesting link though.......seeing as it shows our gdp per capita is better than Germany's........and their poverty levels are worse than the UK's ........

I didn't claim it was based on the latest figures (it was the best I could find quickly), but if you have newer and better, do put them up.

Even so, two indicators out of 14 place UK higher than Germany, by quite small margins, and that for you is proof positive that the UK is (was then) doing better. Right on, Dave!
userpelmetman
Posted: 18 March 2019 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 9:21 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-18 8:47 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 8:32 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.
If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89
I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;
UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.

2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.

My mistake .......
Just re read Brian's link.........2015 is so yesterday .......
It's interesting link though.......seeing as it shows our gdp per capita is better than Germany's........and their poverty levels are worse than the UK's ........

I didn't claim it was based on the latest figures (it was the best I could find quickly), but if you have newer and better, do put them up.

Even so, two indicators out of 14 place UK higher than Germany, by quite small margins, and that for you is proof positive that the UK is (was then) doing better. Right on, Dave!


C'mon Brian ...........

You know damn well the UK is doing far better than Germany .......in spite of you Remoaners doing your damnedest to slag of our economy ........

How annoying is that eh? .......

userBrian Kirby
Posted: 18 March 2019 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


5000500050001000500100100100
Location: East Sussex. Motorhome: Knaus Boxstar 600 Street


pelmetman - 2019-03-18 9:25 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 9:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 8:47 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 8:32 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.
If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89
I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;
UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.

2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.

My mistake .......
Just re read Brian's link.........2015 is so yesterday .......
It's interesting link though.......seeing as it shows our gdp per capita is better than Germany's........and their poverty levels are worse than the UK's ........

I didn't claim it was based on the latest figures (it was the best I could find quickly), but if you have newer and better, do put them up.
Even so, two indicators out of 14 place UK higher than Germany, by quite small margins, and that for you is proof positive that the UK is (was then) doing better. Right on, Dave!

C'mon Brian ...........
You know damn well the UK is doing far better than Germany .......in spite of you Remoaners doing your damnedest to slag of our economy ........
How annoying is that eh? .......

God, this gets tedious! The UK currently has quicker (though only marginally so) growth than Germany. Stick around a month or so, and that will change. Better or worse, I have no idea, but there is no point whatever taking one quarter's figures and expecting them to reflect a long term trend. It is the trends over 10 or 20 years you need to look at.

Who is trying to "slag" anything off? The facts are the facts, and speak for themselves. I doesn't matter who says what, or when, economies largely do what they do, irrespective of name calling. So, why should it be annoying?

It would be nice of the UK had the best performing economy in the world. It doesn't, and its economic performance is likely to be worse as a result of Brexit. That means the average person will get worse off after Brexit. That is what will annoy people, not what you or I call it.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:07 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

Posts: 28764
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Location: 1990 Ford Travelhome.Currently of no fixed abode..


Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 9:58 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-18 9:25 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 9:21 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 8:47 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 8:32 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-18 7:04 PM
Bulletguy - 2019-03-18 5:09 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-18 3:49 PM
pelmetman - 2019-03-16 7:14 PM
Brian Kirby - 2019-03-16 6:59 PM
Annoying little buggers, facts, aren't they? A bit harder to sniff out than prejudiced and biased instant opinions, I'll agree, but so much more informative.

The only annoying little buggers are you Remoaners who distort the facts .........
Is the UK GDP "NOT" currently better than Germany's? .......
Just askin ........

Just askin' indeed! About something yet again irrelevant (because wrong, it is not UK GDP that exceeds that of Germany, it is the rate of GDP growth), and about something that varies over time, and is measured quarter by quarter. So, last three months of 2018 the UK had the highest level of GDP growth in the EU (bu 0.1%!!) , while in the first quarter of 2019, it is level pegging.
If you want a summary comparison of the UK and German economise, have a look here: http://tinyurl.com/y3ljab89
I really don't know where you get your information - but suggest you change it soon. It is leaving you clutching (very misleading) straws!

Looks like Pelmet had simply made a slight grammatical error (not unusual for him) and this was how he had meant to write it;
UK GDP growth is NOT currently better than Germany.

2017 is so yesterday Dumb Dumb .......

Citation needed.

My mistake .......
Just re read Brian's link.........2015 is so yesterday .......
It's interesting link though.......seeing as it shows our gdp per capita is better than Germany's........and their poverty levels are worse than the UK's ........

I didn't claim it was based on the latest figures (it was the best I could find quickly), but if you have newer and better, do put them up.
Even so, two indicators out of 14 place UK higher than Germany, by quite small margins, and that for you is proof positive that the UK is (was then) doing better. Right on, Dave!

C'mon Brian ...........
You know damn well the UK is doing far better than Germany .......in spite of you Remoaners doing your damnedest to slag of our economy ........
How annoying is that eh? .......

God, this gets tedious! The UK currently has quicker (though only marginally so) growth than Germany. Stick around a month or so, and that will change. Better or worse, I have no idea, but there is no point whatever taking one quarter's figures and expecting them to reflect a long term trend. It is the trends over 10 or 20 years you need to look at.

Who is trying to "slag" anything off? The facts are the facts, and speak for themselves. I doesn't matter who says what, or when, economies largely do what they do, irrespective of name calling. So, why should it be annoying?

It would be nice of the UK had the best performing economy in the world. It doesn't, and its economic performance is likely to be worse as a result of Brexit. That means the average person will get worse off after Brexit. That is what will annoy people, not what you or I call it.


Germany has only escaped entering recession by them fiddling with the goalposts .........

Seeing as their economy is based mainly on the export of cars, and considering that industry is being hit with the double whammy of global recession and a change from old technology ........

It strikes me that the German economic model is Kaput .........

They're prolly wishing they were mainly serviced based like ours ........





userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:28 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


You mean like these services Dave?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/7c500690-bfd4-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7



Oh perhaps that doesn't matter as it affects clever people from London in the main

Edited by Violet1956 2019-03-19 9:29 AM
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:49 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:28 AM

You mean like these services Dave?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/7c500690-bfd4-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7



Oh perhaps that doesn't matter as it affects clever people from London in the main


I wont be affected by the loss of a few spivs........Besides, Germany prolly gonna need all the help it can get ..........

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Too narrow a view Dave. All that income tax lost to the public purse that pays your pension and provides you and your family with a health service. Your prejudices may ultimately come back to bite you.
usermalc d
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:56 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:28 AM

You mean like these services Dave?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/7c500690-bfd4-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7



Oh perhaps that doesn't matter as it affects clever people from London in the main



Had a quick look at those links Veronica and I didn't see any mention of " clever people " leaving London.

Seemed to me it was all about bankers.

Perhaps you have forgotten about the worlds latest financial crash of 10 years ago already ?


userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


Walks with the gods

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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:56 AM

Too narrow a view Dave. All that income tax lost to the public purse that pays your pension and provides you and your family with a health service. Your prejudices may ultimately come back to bite you.


Really?..........Have those bankers repaid the damage they did to the UK in 2008 yet? .........

https://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/

Nope ........

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


malc d - 2019-03-19 9:56 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:28 AM

You mean like these services Dave?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/7c500690-bfd4-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7



Oh perhaps that doesn't matter as it affects clever people from London in the main



Had a quick look at those links Veronica and I didn't see any mention of " clever people " leaving London.

Seemed to me it was all about bankers.

Perhaps you have forgotten about the worlds latest financial crash of 10 years ago already ?




I don’t believe all the employees of the banks were responsible for the crash Malc. Wasn't it deregulation that started the rot?
userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:16 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


pelmetman - 2019-03-19 10:06 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:56 AM

Too narrow a view Dave. All that income tax lost to the public purse that pays your pension and provides you and your family with a health service. Your prejudices may ultimately come back to bite you.


Really?..........Have those bankers repaid the damage they did to the UK in 2008 yet? .........

https://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/

Nope ........

Do you truly believe we are better off losing 5000 city jobs? The government provided support to UK banks not the likes of JP Morgan and Nomura.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:18 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:16 AM

pelmetman - 2019-03-19 10:06 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:56 AM

Too narrow a view Dave. All that income tax lost to the public purse that pays your pension and provides you and your family with a health service. Your prejudices may ultimately come back to bite you.


Really?..........Have those bankers repaid the damage they did to the UK in 2008 yet? .........

https://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/

Nope ........

Do you truly believe we are better off losing 5000 city jobs? The government provided support to UK banks not the likes of JP Morgan and Nomura.


I truly believe the loss of a few Spiv's wont make a iota of difference to my life ..........

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Again, too narrow a view. If you walk into Canary Wharf for example, you will see security guards, cleaners, caterers, retail outlets etc all proving jobs for honest hardworking people.
userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:24 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Again, too narrow a view. If you walk into Canary Wharf for example, you will see security guards, cleaners, caterers, retail outlets etc all proving jobs for honest hardworking people.
usermalc d
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:08 AM

malc d - 2019-03-19 9:56 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 9:28 AM

You mean like these services Dave?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/nov/29/london-to-lose-800bn-to-frankfurt-as-banks-prepare-for-brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/7c500690-bfd4-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7



Oh perhaps that doesn't matter as it affects clever people from London in the main



Had a quick look at those links Veronica and I didn't see any mention of " clever people " leaving London.

Seemed to me it was all about bankers.

Perhaps you have forgotten about the worlds latest financial crash of 10 years ago already ?




I don’t believe all the employees of the banks were responsible for the crash Malc. Wasn't it deregulation that started the rot?



" Deregulation " no doubt contributed but is no excuse for anything.

(That was used at the time as a "political" excuse - )

If our speed limits in built-up areas were deregulated it wouldn't be a good idea to speed through housing estates at 100 mph. " Clever " people wouldn't do it.

I seem to recall the crisis started with sub-prime mortgages in the USA - that was an idea dreamt up by bankers, who were certainly NOT clever.

We should never confuse ' highly paid ' with 'clever '

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:36 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


True Malc but I was referring to employees not their paymasters.
usermalc d
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:46 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 
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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:36 AM

True Malc but I was referring to employees not their paymasters.




We obviously have very different opinions about how clever bankers are Veronica - although I think of them simply as money lenders.

They just lend other peoples money to people who have the skills to do something useful with it - ( and charge them a lot for doing so ).

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 10:55 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Perhaps I too have a narrow view based on my knowledge of the recruitment of high achieving graduates in the banking sector Malc. Clever is not always wise - my OH worked in the industry and he would agree. I was just poking fun at one of Dave’s known prejudices.
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 11:18 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:55 AM

Perhaps I too have a narrow view based on my knowledge of the recruitment of high achieving graduates in the banking sector Malc. Clever is not always wise - my OH worked in the industry and he would agree. I was just poking fun at one of Dave’s known prejudices.


Prejudices? ...........I'm not prejudice against bankers ..........

I once employed a ex bank manager to do my deliveries ..........

userViolet1956
Posted: 19 March 2019 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


2000500100100252525


Ah but was he a bit of a spiv Dave?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 11:40 AM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 11:29 AM

Ah but was he a bit of a spiv Dave?


Dunno......as a delivery driver he was quite good .......

userBulletguy
Posted: 19 March 2019 2:34 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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pelmetman - 2019-03-19 11:18 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:55 AM

Perhaps I too have a narrow view based on my knowledge of the recruitment of high achieving graduates in the banking sector Malc. Clever is not always wise - my OH worked in the industry and he would agree. I was just poking fun at one of Dave’s known prejudices.


Prejudices? ...........I'm not prejudice against bankers ..........

Not 'arf.

I once employed a ex bank manager to do my deliveries ..........

And Mary Poppins was your cleaner?
userpelmetman
Posted: 19 March 2019 9:28 PM
Subject: RE: 2016 referendum was illegal
 


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Bulletguy - 2019-03-19 2:34 PM

pelmetman - 2019-03-19 11:18 AM

Violet1956 - 2019-03-19 10:55 AM

Perhaps I too have a narrow view based on my knowledge of the recruitment of high achieving graduates in the banking sector Malc. Clever is not always wise - my OH worked in the industry and he would agree. I was just poking fun at one of Dave’s known prejudices.


Prejudices? ...........I'm not prejudice against bankers ..........

Not 'arf.

I once employed a ex bank manager to do my deliveries ..........

And Mary Poppins was your cleaner?


You should know by now .........I have no need to Bulletsh*t ........



Edited by pelmetman 2019-03-19 9:28 PM