Autogas (LPG) and Motorhomes

[hapi_chappie]

As a previously satisfied user and occasional contributor of this forum, I would appreciate anyone’s experience of using Autogas and any impact it has had on their Motorhome Kitchen appliances. 

For example: Is there a noticeable odour with the Gas and or the exhaust of the Gas?; Do they burn at similar temperatures?; Is the performance similar?; Any other implications?

I have a modern 'Van and have combined a Calor bottle and a Gaslow refillable bottle and am experiencing some problems with the Fridge/Freezer exhaust.  Could this be related to the Gas?

Would it make much difference if the gas was Propane from a bottling plant, as opposed to from a Filling Station? 

All experience and comment welcomed.

Thank you

Graham

[Basil]

Hi Graham, we've been using Gaslow for three to four years now and have had no problems whatsoever. The odour is the same as Calor Propane to us, the products of combustion are the same as any other completely combusted Propane. Autogas is Propane (in the UK) so it burns the same as any other Propane, ours performs identically to Calor Propane. The main implication is the freedom it gives and the ability to refill anywhere allows us to use as much as we wish without worrying about running out..

There have been reports that some fridges have been showing problems with poor combustion and Dometic have (reportedly) issued a statement saying that their fridges may not work properly on Autogas.

I can only say ours has performed exactly the same as before without problem and with no need to service it any more regularly than the once a year it always has been.

 

That is our experience.

 

 

Bas

[Mel E]

Been using just a single 11 Kg MTH Autogas refillable cylinder for 3 years without problems - but only for heating and cooking as our 'fridge is electric.

 

Autogas is a mixture of Butane and Propane. In more northerly countries, it is predominantly Propane because Butane freezes at 0 degrees Celcius. The further south you go, generally the higher the Butane content.

 

We did not even have the motorhome built to take a second cylinder because the MTH bottles have an excellent float gauge which keeps you up to date with the contents and so able to top up without getting near running out.

 

For more see my article in June MMM.

 

Mel E

====

[Derek Uzzell]

The following link relating to an earlier forum thread may be useful regarding the fridge/freezer issue:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12211&posts=3

 

 

[hapi_chappie]

Thank you for the replies so far and thank you Derek for the earlier forum references which I've read through..... 

At least I now know what the "stench" is that we're experiencing.  I have a Co2 detector fitted and it also doesn't like the smell and registers that there's a problem.

If Dometic Fridge/Freezers can run on Propane OR Butane, why are they apparently so sensitive to Autogas, which is a combination of the two?

Are there any legal experts reading this whom would care to comment on the "Fit for Purpose" abilities of an appliance (Dometic FF) designed for use in a vehicle (Motorhome) which by its very nature may well experience a supply of Gas from various countries?

With thanks

Graham

[Basil]

Graham, do you mean you have a CO (Carbon Monoxide) detector? As a CO2 (Carbon Dioxide) detector would pick up any products of combustion as that is what the products of complete combustion are CO2 and H2O.

If you are registering CO (Carbon Monoxide) I would respectfully suggest that you have your appliances checked by a competent person as they should NOT be giving off any CO, that is a product of incomplete combustion and highly toxic.

 

Bas

[ROND]

We have been using a Gaslow reffilable with a Calor propane as back up for 4 years now, we use it on average for 180 nights per year mostly on the continent where the mix of autogas is made up of butane and propane mixed the rate varying as to temprature so i am told unlike the UK where it is 100% propane.

We have never had any problems with any of the gas apliances and never noticed any diference. I think the talk of the reffilable bottles doing damage is total rubbish and probaly another rumour put around by those with interests in bottled gas.

[Derek Uzzell]

It always amuses me when conspiracy is put forward as the explanation for things that people dislike or disagree with.

 

The situation (as I understand it) is that, sometime during the last three years, Dometic began to include in the manuals provided with their leisure-vehicle 3-way absorption-refrigerators advice that 'autogas' should not be used as a fuel source. No explanation is provided in the manuals as to why autogas might present a problem, but, as I suggested previously, it's likely to be a precautionary warning - rather than an It-Might-Kill-You caveat - based on the adverse effect 'unclean' autogas could have on appliances designed for 'clean' LPG.

 

If you obtain a bottle of LPG from, say, Calor, that gas will have been produced to a specified UK standard regarding 'cleanliness' and the bottle itself will have received regular internal cleaning. If you run a domestic or leisure-vehicle appliance using Calor gas, then you should not expect to experience problems due to 'dirty' contaminants in the gas.

 

Autogas (whether 100% propane or butane, or a mixture of the two) is intended to fuel vehicles not fridges. It's kept in big storage tanks at garages and fed to vehicles via long rubber hoses. Autogas-fuelled vehicles include filters within their gas systems and the LPG is delivered to the motor in liquid form. There is plenty of potential for autogas to be 'unclean' when it leaves the pump's nozzle at a service-station and, although this may not matter when it's used to fuel vehicles, there's more than a fair possibility that, in a leisure vehicle with a no-filter gas system and using the autogas in vapour form, an LPG-powered fridge will take offence. (In fact, as I believe I once mentioned on this forum, an acquaintance of mine had decided to return to using exchange-only gas containers having had his refillable bottle filled (in the UK) with LPG so contaminated that it wouldn't burn.) If contaminants enter a motorhome's gas bottle/tank they are likely to remain there and build up - how many motorcaravanners with refillable bottles/tanks empty those containers regularly to expel any muck that might have collected over time?

 

As Dometic include in their fridge manuals warnings that town gas or natural gas should not be used (because it's likely to blow you sky-high!), it's surely perverse to say to oneself "Well, I'll follow that advice but I'll ignore the warning about autogas because I'm so technically clued-up that I'm 100% sure it's nonsence."

 

I don't know if Dometic's warning about autogas is general and retrospective or is only applicable to more recent fridge models to which the manuals with the warnings in them apply. (Perhaps someone could ask Dometic?) My attitude is that, if one chooses to use vehicle fuel to power fridges and the manufacturer of the fridges advises against that practice, then it's common sense to bear that advice in mind.

 

I choose to ignore Dometic's advice and I intend to continue to use autogas for as long as it doesn't cause me problems. I think it's ridiculous to suggest that Dometic and the bottled-gas companies have formed some sort of secret cartel and (because it's bleeding obvious in my view) I fully accept the possibility that the autogas I put in my refillable bottle could contain products that my fridge won't like. I've used autogas in my last motorcaravan and all the gas appliances seemed happy enough with it, and that's equally true for my present motorhome. But, if using autogas does start to cause my Dometic fridge's flue to soot-up (which seems to be the problem people have occasionally reported), then I see that as completely my own fault for deliberately ignoring Dometic's advice.

[breakaleg]

I had two gas lows fitted from new to my present van, (two years old now) and calor too my last van for ten years.

The only difference that i have spotted so far: half price gas and no carring or fitting of cylinders, if that costs me a new fridge every ten or so years i will take the risk

pete

[Clive]

I suspect you have a partial blockage of the flue or you have parked so the wind is blowing your exhause gasses back inside the van. Has some wiring or a flexible pipe fallen near the hot flue?

 

Thousands of motorhomers including myself have converted to bulk tanks of one sort or another just for the convienience. The gas you get is no different to that provided by Calor or anybody else. Either Propane or Butane. The standard regulator on a modern van is set at a compromise pressure to suit either gas and works perfectly well with any variety of blend.

 

Hope that helps.

C.

 

 

 

[Basil]

Thanks Derek for your usual balanced view, with which I generally agree. However whilst like you I don't necessarily agree with the 'conspiricy' theory on Dometics part and believe its an a**e covering exercise for them, you cannot blame those that wonder about conspiricy when we have seen the past actions of the likes of Calor who it is well documented made a heavy attempt to stop any kind of refillable cylinder being filled on forcourts with the threat of removing their franchise from those garages that did not adhere.

 

Bas

[Basil]

Clive - 2008-07-11 9:48 AM

Thousands of motorhomers including myself have converted to bulk tanks of one sort or another just for the convienience. The gas you get is no different to that provided by Calor or anybody else. Either Propane or Butane. The standard regulator on a modern van is set at a compromise pressure to suit either gas and works perfectly well with any variety of blend.

 

Hope that helps.

C.

 

With that I totally agree.

 

Bas

[Dave Newell]

On a recent hab inspection I found a fridge with a burner assembly and flue so badly blocked that it sent my CO meter into a sulk (My CO meter will read up to 40% CO in air and it went off the scale!) and made me physically ill for several hours after working on it. The most worrying aspect of this was there were obvious signs that the fumes from the fridge were entering the wardrobe above it and therefore the living quarters. This vehicle was using a refillable gas cylinder. Was that the cause? I don't know but it does serve to illustrate the importance of regular checking of things like the fridge flue and the value of a simple CO detector but get one with an alarm rather than the little dots that change colour 'cos you can't see the colour change when you're asleep :-S .

 

D.

[breakaleg]

thats a good point dave, and i think that a fridge service should be included in the habitation service, you can't even inspect the colour of the flame anymore.

pete

[wints]

My van, Mirage 6000, has a bulk tank, and for the past 2 winters if the temp gets anywhere near freezing the autogas refuses to 'gas off'. I then have to change over to the propane calor bottle I carry as back up. It was - 12 for several succesive nights in Braemar and didn't get above -5 (in the shade) during the day. I've read that there are 'dregs' left in bulk tank and these contaminate the propane bit and stop it gassing off in low temps. I'm thinking about lagging the gas pipes and the regulator from the bulk tank, but not the tank itself.

Allen

[Dave Newell]

breakaleg - 2008-07-11 12:20 PM

 

thats a good point dave, and i think that a fridge service should be included in the habitation service, you can't even inspect the colour of the flame anymore.

pete

 

Hi Pete, yes I carry out a basic fridge service (remove and clean the burner assembly and clean the flue out) during a hab inspection (as long as it is feasible to do so, some vans have the fridge so badly fitted that you need to strip half the 'van to get at the burner assembly).

 

D.

[david lloyd]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-07-11 9:34 AM

 

I don't know if Dometic's warning about autogas is general and retrospective or is only applicable to more recent fridge models to which the manuals with the warnings in them apply. (Perhaps someone could ask Dometic?) My attitude is that, if one chooses to use vehicle fuel to power fridges and the manufacturer of the fridges advises against that practice, then it's common sense to bear that advice in mind.

 

 

Hi Derek

 

I have to agree, in principle, that if Dometic warn against the use of Autogas in their appliances then it is wise to adhere to that advice.

 

However, it is unlikely that anyone buying a new motorhome will have read the manuals beforehand (so may remain unaware of the warning) and may decide to have a bulk lpg system fitted at the time of purchase - in this case surely the dealer has some responsibility to point out any such relevent details/hazard warning rather than simply adding the requested item?

 

Regards, David

[Mel B]

Nice thought David, but we are talking about people trying to sell you something here! :$

 

I seriously doubt that they all know anyway - how many dealers do you know that would read through the manuals for all the appliances fitted in a motorhome to check what the customer should and shouldn't do ... not one I should think! 8-)

 

Now in the ideal world ..... :D

[hapi_chappie]

Please forgive my mistake, I have a CO detector (not CO2), luckily it does has an audible alarm as recommended by Clive and I know it works - particularly well and loudly at 03:10 am!

As Clive describes in the Van he was checking, I believe we too have fumes entering the Van, probably via the Oven outlet vent which is immediately above the FF as part of the modern Tec Tower. I too have been left with a headache for a period of time. 

I should add that the Gas system has been checked by competent dealers and my supplying dealer, with manufacturer support is investigating seriously, under warranty, on my behalf now that I'm back in the UK.

I'm anticipating that Dometic might well blame the use of Autogas.  Whether this is reasonable, as some believe, is a mute point.  If Autogas is a combination of Propane and Butane, both of which are individually acceptable to the FF burner, then why should some combination not be acceptable?

It may well be that the Dometic manual suggets Autogas should be avoided, but is that a reasonable position in law? Many thousands of people have some LPG installation, be it a bulk tank or re-fillable bottles and nobody, except maybe Calor for obvious commercial reasons, discourage use of such systems.

And if so many Motorhomes have LPG systems fitted, is it reasonable that an appliance that is fitted to a Motorhome (Dometic FF) cannot reasonably run with the gas supplied by such LPG systems? 

It does seem that this problem is more evident on the recent models, so could one argue that such units have been engineered with an oversensitive nose, or in this case an over sensitive burner? Should more tolerance have been built in to the design?

Obviously one should reasonably exempt the times when "dirty" gas is inadvertently introduced to the sytem, but how frequent is this in reality?  Has anyone ever analysed the Autogas that is alledged to be dirty?

Do I believe in conspiracy theories?  No typically not.  Do I believe that sometimes Corporate companies, interested in profit margins, could try and blame somone else, in what someone described as an ar*e covering excercise, yes I think I probably do!

What's the logical conclusion here:  Would Dometic have us all stop using Autogas?  That's not very likely. Can Dometic offer a modification that makes their appliances more tolerant? Or do those of us that use Autogas, have to accept that we clean the appliance on a VERY regular basis?

Anyone got any other solutions or other comments?

Thank you as always, Graham

[Curly]

Hi guys, I too have a problem with the Dometic fridge.

I have refillable Gaslow cylinders for 4 yrs plus which I would not be without as we travel Europe and free camp a lot. Now to the problem with temperature during a trip to Croatia, the freezer part is perfect but the fridge part is I believe too high.

Let me explain got home, empty fridge completely and left it open for a couple of days.

Now put fridge on at no. 3 position with electric hook up, freezer solid and temp. in fridge 2 degrees after 24 hrs.

Now switch to gas freezer solid but temp. in fridge 7 degrees after 24 hrs. repeated this procedure for a week no difference.

Now before anyone says this 7 degrees is ok the milk goes off and the butter is very soft.

I have yet to check flues etc. but any other ideas.

[zulurita]

I am new to using LPG/Autogas having had my refillable cylinder fitted at MTH in March this year.

 

Ours is a Thetford Fridge with freezer. So far we HAVE NOT experienced any problems. No leaks and works on gas ok and we used it a lot in France for 3 months as we were using Aires.

 

It would seem then that it is best to have the burner etc checked/replaced on the annual habitation service. and I guess to carry a spare Truma regulator. (I don't as yet).

 

Gaslow use stainless steel tubing now but MTH do not but I did ask about this asnd was assured all would be ok. Only time will tell I suppose.

 

However I am pleased that I do have a refillable cylinder. I topped up twice whilst in France for 3 months and again on my way home in UK. I have a 2nd Calor 6 kg cylinder as back up and because my locker wouldn't take two 11 kg cylinders.

 

[Usinmyknaus]

Derek Uzzell - 2008-07-11 9:34 AM

 

 

QUOTE: I don't know if Dometic's warning about autogas is general and retrospective or is only applicable to more recent fridge models to which the manuals with the warnings in them apply. (Perhaps someone could ask Dometic?) QUOTE.

 

Derek,

 

My post from 13 August 2007:

 

"I've received a definitive answer from Dometic, who were commendably quick in responding to my request.

 

They say the problem with using autogas is that the flue central tube (chimney) will soot up in a short period of time. Autogas contains oily substances which give rise to combustion problems i.e. sooting when burning. This is the reason they do not recommend its use, although the performance of the fridge itself should not be affected. They add that if Autogas is used the burner and central flue will need to be cleaned regularly when in use.

 

I replied saying that I would proceed with the installation of refillable cylinders (physically I have no choice) and will arrange for additional service inspections.

 

I will assume that if Dometic do not object to my proposal they will feel obliged to honour the warranty unless they can show that the autogas has caused any subsequent failure. If they don't well I can't continue with calor cylinders so as I have already said, I have little choice. Also, I checked the on-line manual for the fridge in good faith before I bought it and it made no mention of problems with autogas - indeed it still does not - see dometic.com, model RM7655L if interested. The problem only came to light when I checked the paper version of the same manual which came with my fridge. "

 

Nearly 12 months on and autogas has caused no problems with the 'fridge and there was no adverse comment from the habitation check last Wednesday. The regulator failed in France the week before due to blockage with a yellow, oily substance but from an internet search I see that such occurrences are not confined to autogas equipped vans. The faulty regulator was replaced by the dealer under warranty.

 

Bob

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Thanks for the update, Bob.

 

The following link retrieves the July 2007 forum thread containing Bob's original posting. This is the thread in which (I believe) the matter of Dometic warning against using 'autogas' for powering their 3-way fridges was first raised.

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=8224&start=1

 

Bob mentions that Dometic's warning was printed in the hardcopy (ie. paper) manual for his fridge, but the warning wasn't present in the softcopy version downloadable from Dometic's website.

 

I've now looked at a few softcopy Dometic manuals and couldn't spot anything in them about not using autogas. I thought it possible that the text of paper manuals relating to 7-Series fridges might have been amended to include the warning but the amendment had not been carried through to the on-line manuals. However, the on-line manuals for the very latest 8-Series Dometic fridges also appear to contain no prohibition about autogas, which seems strange.

 

May I ask forum members with newish (let's say 2006-onwards) motorhomes having Dometic fridges to take a look at the Dometic documentation that they will (should!) have received with their vehicles? The Dometic manual contains a Table of Contents towards the front of the document and any warning about autogas is likely to be found in the "INSTALLATION GUIDE" section, near the beginning of the "Gas Installation" sub-section in the paragraph where the types of gas that should or should not be used are described.

 

Would you please then confirm whether or not your manual contains the warning about autogas, saying which model of Dometic fridge you have and the year in which your motorhome was built (eg. YES, RM7605L, 2007). If your Dometic manual carries an 'edition reference' on its cover-page (eg. the manual for my own fridge has "T.B. 07/2004 MB" on the cover-page), then it would be useful if you could also quote that reference.

[hapi_chappie]

Derek, thank you for progressing this debate in an objective manner.

I have model RMT7855L fitted in my 2007 Dethleffs Van. The hardcopy manual states on page 29, paragraph 8.7 that Town Gas or Natural Gas should not be used.  There is NO mention of Autogas. The manual is edition: T.B. MB 09/2006

The requested format is therefore: No, RMT7855L, 2007

Thanks again

Graham

[Basil]

Dave Newell - 2008-07-11 12:13 PM

...... The most worrying aspect of this was there were obvious signs that the fumes from the fridge were entering the wardrobe above it and therefore the living quarters. ......

D.

 

Sorry if this is a little off topic but to me there is relevance in that should the fridge not burn correctly I forsee possible problems of the nature you describe.

Dave I was interested in your comment above as I have just installed Gaslow into my neighbours recently aquired SEA Tandy. No problems with that, however I was shocked to see how modern refrigerators (certainly on this motorhome) appear to have the flue terminating inside a space batween the inner wall (coated lightweight ply) and the outer skins of the motorhome and eventually venting through the top air circulation outlet i.e. the flue no longer exiting to outside air. Whilst I understand and accept that products of combustion under normal (stoichiometric) conditions are non toxic it seems to me a bit undesirable to not terminate to outside air for the reasons you describe and the well known fact that fridges are virtually impossible to seal perfectly from the interior of the motorhome.

I am currently trying to find out if there is a venting kit to outside air available would you have any idea on that?

Do you have any views yourself on fridges fitted in this manner, whether running on LPG or any gas?

 

Bas