Reversing Judder

[Elliot]

I don’t have a motorhome yet December 08 is the month of my release from the shackles of my working life. That is the month we start looking for “The Bus”.

I have been reading MMM since Jan 08 and will continue to so do into the future it provides lots of info, we have changed our minds about the layout we want many times, and this is all part of the choosing and the fun I suppose. When I read about the reversing judder and the response of Fiat and Peugeot I was amazed.

Who do they think they are selling this combination of chassis, gear train and engine that is obviously not fit for purpose to the conversion market? A fault of this magnitude is the responsibility of the base vehicle provider and the convertor. They should sort this out together and agree a specification that works not come out with rubbish statements like “operating normally” and “vehicle characteristics”. Do they really think all owners of these vehicles are cretins? If my Mondeo juddered and blew up when I reversed uphill it would end up on the forecourt of the local dealer and they would be told “fix it” in no uncertain terms.

The pure arrogance of these two companies defies any explanation. Is it because the conversion market is a small one to them or is it that they just don’t care? I know for one I will not be putting my hard earned money into a Fiat or Peugeot and my sympathies lie with all those who have.

Elliot

 

 

[colin]

Interesting that you quote Mondeo, heres fords responce to similier problem from Honest John

Reports of problems with camshaft position sensors of TDCI 130s. Spate of clutch and dual-mass flywheel failures on 2003 built 2004 model year TDCIs. Starting problems with diesel may be due to impending clutch failure. Iron filings from failing dual mass flywheels can get into the starter motor and cause starting problems. 13/10/07 Voluntary Recall letter to some owners of TDDIs and TDCIs to replace faulty dual mass flywheels. Ford will sometimes contribute to the very high replacement costs of dual mass flywheels and clutches if the car has done less than 45,000 miles.

Yes I would agree at first it was Fiats et. al. responcabilty, but now the problem is common knowledge convertors and dealers must take blame for continueing to use chassis and legaly dealer that you buy from should sort it

 

[Vernon B]

Like your style Elliot but expect a lot of your experience of good customer service to be challenged when you buy into the m/h market. As you've suggested there's not so much choice and not so much competition as you'll find in the car trade.

 

It's all very well to tell an indifferent dealer to get "st***ed" but then what do you do? There probably isn't another one around for miles.

 

I'm sure motorhoming will meet all your dreams but you'll have to be prepared to accept the trade's standards of customer care and not your own - there are exceptions but they're few and far between.

 

Have a great retirement

 

Vernon

[Ranger]

When I am looking around at a show and see something nice, I say to the salesman 'nice van pity it's on a useless base vehicle' wouldn't buy that unless it is on a decent base vehicle. If we all made a point of not entertaining buying 'vans on Fiats, Peugeots, etc, they would eventually get the message. If we keep on buying rubbish base vehicles the money grabbers will keep producing them. I have been lucky I have never had a poor base vehicle.

[libby]

Elliot

 

Having been around for some 60 plus years in the motor repair and manufacturing trades, I would never choose a Fiat even if it was half price, just go back a while and read all the problems, plus have a look at what's for sale in the second hand columns.

 

Needless to say I decided on a Mercedes. Ok so it costs more but there's few bugs to cost me extra cash.

 

Do you want to spend your time in it or under it?

 

And to all those who say we cannot afford it I say well save up for longer then. I bought my first one at the age of 75, but I had hired them over many years and had some fair ideas on makes etc.

 

LB

[rowley]

May i say that I have had 5 Fiats in my time and none of them have let me down. I did have a fault on one and that was a switch. As for the X250, yes it is not too happy when reversing on a soggy field, but apart from that it is a super drive.

[Itexuk]

rowley - 2008-07-23 2:28 PM

 

May i say that I have had 5 Fiats in my time and none of them have let me down. I did have a fault on one and that was a switch. As for the X250, yes it is not too happy when reversing on a soggy field, but apart from that it is a super drive.

 

I agree, my x250 is great, no problems reversing

[Brian Kirby]

Not sure if Elliot is referring to all the "judderchat" on here, or whether he's just read Mike Jago's editorial (Mike's motorcaravanning month: p27) in the August MMM.

For those who haven't, it is worth a read.  MMM is now firmly off the fence, for which they should be heartily congratulated.  It is a superbly balanced piece, makes no wild or unsubstantiated allegations, and presents the facts, as known to date, in carefully measured terms.

If that makes it sound a bit fluffy, just get MMM and have a read!  It will have been round their legal department, and must have caused much soul searching in view of the potential loss of advertising revenues from disgruntled manufacturers.  However, I'd think anyone who takes the trouble to read it, and who is also contemplation buying, as Elliot is, will think several times before opting for a Sevel base.  I'd guess that one or two motorhome converters will also have a little think about which base vehicles they order for next year.

The writing is, very clearly, on the wall for the Sevel product.  There is good alternative competition from Ford and Renault, neither of which need blow the bank, apart from Mercedes and the odd Iveco, so the choice is greater than may at first seem the case.

One has to conclude that the Sevel judder is far more complex in origin, and far more costly and difficult to cure, than at first appeared likely.  If the fix were cheap and simple it would surely have been rolled out by now.  The only alternative explanation is that they can't find the cause, which I don't buy, or that they have become complacent as motorhome base market leader, and think they are invincible - which, unfortunately, somehow, seems just about possible!

[PSHORT]

In the worst case senario in that Fiat wash their hands of this model and all us owners do you or anyone have any info on fitting the auto box to the 160 engine.

I think I would be prepared to pay for the upgrade difference if Fiat would(dream on) refund the manual box.

We don't want to change the van as the interior dimensions of the Merc in particular are not up to the Fiat.

[Elliot]

I suppose at the end of the day when you are going to spend any amount of money you always look for quality and customer care. If they don't exist then you stay away. These companies need to learn that’s what customers do

[steamer]

i have been following this & other threads on this subject with interest , when we went looking for our m/home we looked at all sorts , having had both ford & mercs in commercial guise we couldn't find anything whiich the other half liked in layout that was available quickly , we chose a kontiki 645 with the fiat 160 manual at a daft price as the dealer needed to shift it or he would have to pay for it !

having been out in it 3 times & with 700 miles approx on the clock we have had to date no hassles ,( only a handbrake that doesnt want to behave ) , now wether something materailises in future we will wait & see , i had a dualmass flywheel fail on a mitsubishi showgun at 45k - it cost me over 3k to repair as mitsu washed their hands of it !

i would be interested to fid out what ratio of chassis's built have this problem & wether it has anything to do with conversion aspects - i.e wheel sizes , weight ratio etc , we in years gone by built lorry bodies etc & it is suprising how much you can alter the overall perfomance of the vehicle & its components by going that little too far - has this happened ?

 

anyway thats my two penneth worth .

 

steamer .

[david lloyd]

I can only say that it has certainly made me think twice about buying new on the sevel chassis.

 

We did have two van conversions on our shortlist (and were close to signing on the dotted line) with the sevel chassis but have decided to go for a 2005 model instead - if the problems are not sorted by the time the next change comes around we will avoid them again.

 

David

[fred grant]

fred only needs to think once david, and thats difficult enough!!!

 

alice

[trigrem]

Excellent post by Brian, I too welcome the brave stance taken by MMM. now what we need is a few converters to keep up the pressure.

Commenting on Steamers comment about conversion aspects affecting base vehicle , I would have thought that as long as the converter stayed within the load parameters, ie MTPL and the axle loads then the base vehicle should be able to cope. Which is obviously not the case on the new Fiat. I know a lot of owners will not be affected for various reasons, ie. never reversing up a decent slope, or even avoiding reversing altogether, but there is more trouble brewing in the future. If Fiat/Peougeot do not offer and publicize a cure then when the present crop of new vehicles come on the secondhand market then values will fall. Who will want to buy a motorhome with an unknown reversing history whose gearbox and/or clutch has a potential high failure rate.

I feel lucky, I bought the old model.

[Rayjsj]

I agree,the second-hand market will become a minefield, with the latest sevel's being the one's to avoid like the plague. UNLESS Fiat/Peugeot, spend a LOT of money and clean up the mess (unlikely !) . What Insurance company would give cover for mechanical failure for instance ??

What dealer could honestly afford to give warranty against mechanical failure of the gearbox ?? You'd quite literally 'On Your Own'

 

No Thankyou !! I'd rather go back to 'Tugging' or give up altogether. :-(

[Stuart]

There is already a backlash against Fiat. I had the proverbial fifth gear problem when my van was a few weeks out of warranty, having been off the road for three months the previous year.

Fiat did not even want to discuss the matter, then they told me they had nobody who could look at the original parts that had been replaced.

I'm surely not the only one who has already left the Fiat "fan club".

 

Stuart

[Tomo3090]

Firstly I would like to say I do feel sorry for anyone having problems with their van, what ever the make. It is very frustrating and can only make you feel very angry to have your van off the road for something not your problem and the people who produced the vehicle ignoring your concerns.

 

That said I have had 2 Sevel based vans in the last 2 years, a Compass Avantgarde 140 on a 100Hdi Peugeot and my present van, a Cheyenne 660 on a FIAT 130Hdi. I did 9000 miles in 12 months in the Peugeot in the UK and France & Spain, and have done 1400 miles in the FIAT in the UK since June. Neither van had any problems with reversing, apart from up a slope on wet grass but there was no hint of a judder just wheel spin.

 

Both vans were and are an excellent drive and I have had no problems. The Peugeot had a recall to fit the drains and engine cover to stop water ingress and my FIAT had them on when I bought it.

 

As I say I do feel for those who are suffering with this "affliction", but it is obvious that with the number of Sevel vans on the road, not all are affected. True, it does seem a lottery as to whether it does judder or not and that is plainly unacceptable. It is up to the converters and dealers to bring pressure to bear on FIAT etc to sort this out. They are the ones who can take their pounds and Euros eslewhere.

 

I don't know the answer. Is it through trading standards and consumer legislation, or a more direct campaign?

 

Something needs to be done but to start saying all Sevel vans are faulty and rubbish is plainly not true and I think will only undermine any campaign because the companies involved will just trot out the statistics and muddy the water and avoid any flak by denigrating the complainants.

[david lloyd]

When looking at new van coversions recently I expressed concerns to the dealers who each said that, although there are a few vehicles affected, it is a relatively minor amount taking into account the total amount of these vans on the road.

 

This is true to an extent BUT - how many drivers of the commercial variants are going to make a complaint - even if they pick the fault up? It is more likely that motorhome users are much more fastidious about their vehicle and therefore likely to make the complaint and ask for it to be rectified. I wonder how many commercial users picked up the fault with water ingress or, if they did, were concerned enough to ask for it to be rectified?

 

Of real concern is the prospect that both manufacturers will ride out the storm and probably bring out an updated version in a year or two that will have the 'non-existent' problem rectified.

 

One thing is for sure, unless the issue is addressed by Fiat/Peugeot and a full recall inst*tuted, I believe motorhomes on these chassis' will be difficult to sell on by dealers after they have been part exchanged in a couple of years time. There will be many buyers all too aware of this debate with long memories who will avoid this particular run of vehicles and either choose a different chassis or wait for the revised version to come onto the market.

 

David

[rupert123]

Totally agree with Stephens post. I have gone on about this for a long time but like the high numbers of totally satisfied Fiat customers am ignored. We once again get the 'would never buy one/never had one brigade, voicing their uniformed opinions. These people mostly are not in the market anyway for a new van and have probably never driven one and are perfectly satisfied with their old model. Fine, but why comment glibly about something you have no experience of and ignore the thousands of satisfied owners. Will it effect the price, of course not, most owners do not read forums and reports have been thin on the ground. the few reports have been in small circulation magazines and until it makes the national tabloids will have no effect. In any case if things continue in the way they are in another year you will have little choice other than buy a Sevel based van. Most buy their vans on interior layout of the living section anyway , base vehicle is very much second place.

[pagey]

wont comment on the new fiat as i have never driven one but i was out in a mates new 08 transit 3.5t mwb van and was talking about this fiat problem, his van is on the limit weight wise and he said oh this does that and when we got to an area where he could show me he reversed up and the van juddered badly and the clutch could be smelt i asked him if he was going to report it and he said what for its not mine, how many fiat van drivers have the same att*tude i wonder

[david lloyd]

rupert123 - 2008-07-25 12:37 PM

 

Totally agree with Stephens post. I have gone on about this for a long time but like the high numbers of totally satisfied Fiat customers am ignored. We once again get the 'would never buy one/never had one brigade, voicing their uniformed opinions. These people mostly are not in the market anyway for a new van and have probably never driven one and are perfectly satisfied with their old model. Fine, but why comment glibly about something you have no experience of and ignore the thousands of satisfied owners. Will it effect the price, of course not, most owners do not read forums and reports have been thin on the ground. the few reports have been in small circulation magazines and until it makes the national tabloids will have no effect. In any case if things continue in the way they are in another year you will have little choice other than buy a Sevel based van. Most buy their vans on interior layout of the living section anyway , base vehicle is very much second place.

 

Yes, Rupert - but some of us are in the market and have driven said vans - and I wouldn't call MMM a magazine with a 'small circulation' - in my case at least it has prompted me to turn away from the new x250.

 

David

[libby]

Contrary to Ruperts thread that non Fiat owners have less experience of the Fiat industry, maybe but.........

 

The way many of us choose a personal vehicle is from the engine/chassis design upwards.

 

The pretty box on the top of the chassis is only the icing on the cake, like decorative patterns and colours on a packets of food.

 

To us, its what ingedients are used in making the cake that is most important.

 

I very much doubt there will ever be an answer to the gear box/clutch problem.

 

The recent Fiat difficulties don't alter my original views.

[rupert123]

.

 

Yes, Rupert - but some of us are in the market and have driven said vans - and I wouldn't call MMM a magazine with a 'small circulation' - in my case at least it has prompted me to turn away from the new x250.

 

David

 

Well fair enough David but you tend to make my point. You say you are in the market, but have you purchased yet, I suspect not, so why would Fiat care. You may not buy for another six months in that time Fiat fix the problem, would you then change your mind? When you tested the Fiat did it judder, did you point this out to salesman? You would not call the MMM a magazine with small circulation, well nor did I, in fact I do not recall metioning anything by name. I said small circulation and compared with tabloids, for example Daily Mail has around 2.3 million readers a day, MMM if you like has what 30,000 a month, do not really know but cannot be much more. this is not small it is completely of the radar.

[rupert123]

libby - 2008-07-25 5:04 PM

 

Contrary to Ruperts thread that non Fiat owners have less experience of the Fiat industry, maybe but.........

 

The way many of us choose a personal vehicle is from the engine/chassis design upwards.

 

The pretty box on the top of the chassis is only the icing on the cake, like decorative patterns and colours on a packets of food.

 

To us, its what ingedients are used in making the cake that is most important.

 

I very much doubt there will ever be an answer to the gear box/clutch problem.

 

The recent Fiat difficulties don't alter my original views.

 

Oh come on Bill, you say in an earlier post you have a Mercedes, if you have been in motor trade you must know that Mercedes over the past ten years have one of the worst car and van satisfaction rateings of all, you may not buy a Fiat but would be completely mad to buy one of these.

[Brian Kirby]

rupert123 - 2008-07-25 12:37 PM Totally agree with Stephens post. I have gone on about this for a long time but like the high numbers of totally satisfied Fiat customers am ignored. We once again get the 'would never buy one/never had one brigade, voicing their uniformed opinions. These people mostly are not in the market anyway for a new van and have probably never driven one and are perfectly satisfied with their old model. Fine, but why comment glibly about something you have no experience of and ignore the thousands of satisfied owners. Will it effect the price, of course not, most owners do not read forums and reports have been thin on the ground. the few reports have been in small circulation magazines and until it makes the national tabloids will have no effect. In any case if things continue in the way they are in another year you will have little choice other than buy a Sevel based van. Most buy their vans on interior layout of the living section anyway , base vehicle is very much second place.

Not quite sure what your point is, Rupert.  If you buy any van and it is trouble free, you will be happy.  If you buy a van and it has a problem, you won't.  If you then take it to the manufacturer's agent for repair, explaining what is wrong, and are told it is normal behaviour for that vehicle, you will be very unhappy indeed, and telling you the great majority of other owners don't have that problem will do nothing for your state of mind.  You will remain unhappy.  Since no-one has yet offered an explanation of what is causing this problem, buying a Sevel produced vehicle carries a risk.  You may get one of the judderers, you may not, but if you do, the manufacturer's response will not be particularly helpful or constructive.  If it's your retirement lump sum you're considering spending, in the hope of a little relaxing exploration while you still can, you therefore risk being very ill served if you buy one of these vans before the problem has been demonstrably cured.  I therefore can't see how it helps the afflicted to keep repeating that most folk are happy with theirs.  Surely, it is the afflicted who are the point, and the non-afflicted are merely irrelevant, whatever their points of view?