Rod Sue Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hi We have a Swift Kon-Tiki on a Fiat Ducato chassi and we have bought a little Peugeot 106 to tow behind us on an A frame, we have had a plug fitted to the front of the car that operates the cars lights when we indicate or brake ect so we do not need to use a trailer board we just plug in a short lead, but I was just wondering if I will need to display the number plate of the motorhome on the rear of the car or an "ON TOW" plate could someone please inform me of what I should do legally. Regards Rod :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hi Rod By fitting the A-frame you are, in effect, turning the towed car into a trailer and as such you have to comply with trailer law. This does mean that you do need to display the number plate of the towing vehicle on the car and also have red warning triangles at the rear. When we towed a Toyota Yaris I made up a number plate that also had space at either end to attach the warning triangles but I believe you can buy magnetic versions. My Car-A-Tow A-frame also came with special number plate clips that allowed the motorhome number plate to be attached to the rear of the car over the car's number plate. Beware - you are likely to spark a highly contested deabte on the issue of towing with an A-frame now that you have asked this question!! Enjoy the Kontiki and the car. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Hi ... I assume it is a braked A frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Sue Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 No it is not a braked A-Frame as the empty car will not be heavy enough to cause the motorhome any probs when it it laden with water ect, that is why we got such a light car to tow, the question was "What No plate will I need" ?????????????? Regards Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I tow a smart on Aframe,would suggest you have it braked to comply and number plate of the motor home on back of car and 2 red triangles in back window.I use blue tack to secure them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Rod: I looked up John Wickersham's "A-Frame Appraisal" article in MMM August 2007 and (seemingly based on advice from the company - TOWtal - who supplied JW with his A-frame) the rear number-plate on the car being towed was 'overlaid' with a plate bearing the towing-vehicle's registration number and a magnetic "ON TOW" plate (supplied by TOWtal) was fixed to the car's rear. JW also observed that "Truthfully, I thought a pair of red triangles was needed". There has been more than enough heated forum argument in the past about the 'legality' of A-frame towing. My own view is that there are UK technical regulations relating to trailers that the car-on-an-A-frame concept is unable to comply with (basically, rules relating to a trailer's braking system and reversing capabilities). However, overlooking such fine-print factors, there seems to be no doubt that, if a car on an A-frame is to be considered as a 'trailer', the weight of the car is defined by its maximum overall weight as laid down by its manufacturer (ie. the maximum authorised weight of the car including passengers, luggage, fuel, etc.) and not by the car's 'empty' weight. If the maximum authorised weight of the car (plus the weight of the A-frame itself) exceeds 750kg, then the vehicle cannot be towed legally in the UK on an unbraked A-frame. As JW rightly states in his article, few conventional small cars will fall into the sub-750kg category. I note that you've reacted vigorously (!!) to Mel C's assumption about the type of A-frame you intend to employ. While I fully accept that Mel's question didn't bear on your own inquiry, I'm sure she had in mind the near certainty that a Peugeot 106 can't legally be towed in the UK on an unbraked A-frame due to Peugeot's authorised maximum overall weight for this model well-exceeding the 750kg limit. I can understand your wish to explore legality aspects relating to rear number- and warning-plates, but, personally, I'd be much more concerned to ensure that using an unbraked frame with a Peugeot 106 was legally permissible. I've seen plenty of Peugeot 106-size cars being A-frame towed behind Kon-Tiki-size motorhomes, but I've always assumed they were on braked frames. In fact, years ago, when I was talking to one of the main A-frame suppliers, I was told that they strongly recommended that an unbraked A-frame only be employed with motorhomes having twin rear axles or a rear axle with twinned-wheels. This meant that, when up to three quarters of a tonne of 'trailer' shoved the motorhome up the backside under hard braking, there was plenty of tyre area in contact with the road to combat the motorhome being pushed sideways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Hi Rod Just to add to Derek's comprehensive reply. As he says, it is the maximum overall weight of the car that has to be below 750kgs but, another requirement of the relevent trailer legislation that your towed car will have to comply with is that if brakes are fitted to the trailer then they MUST be able to be operated by the towing vehicle. The Peugeot has brakes fitted so should really be towed on a braked A-frame to meet the legal requirements. Sorry Rod, I don't want to bog down the thread with the legal requirements but the question braked/unbraked is possibly the most significant and easily interpreted area of the legislation. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snobbyafghan Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Just to widen this debate slightly, am I correct in thinking that a car towed in this way is going to clock up the mileage covered whilst it is being towed? If so, and taking into account the tyre wear, what is the advantage of A frames compared to getting a purpose-made light trailer to put the car on? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Some cars with electronic odometers (but not all) do not record the mileage when being towed. However, all the running gear, suspension, brakes, etc., - in fact, everything except the engine, do travel that mileage, and that mileage must be included on resale or you are guilty of a false declaration. On the braked/unbraked question, there is no doubt whatsoever that towing your Peugeot with an unbraked A-frame is illegal. What is more, transgressors have been charged and fined as reported by a police officer on this very forum a few months ago. Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 snobbyafghan - 2008-07-29 9:39 AM Just to widen this debate slightly, am I correct in thinking that a car towed in this way is going to clock up the mileage covered whilst it is being towed? If so, and taking into account the tyre wear, what is the advantage of A frames compared to getting a purpose-made light trailer to put the car on? Doug Hi Doug Mel E has answered the first part of your question but the main advantages seen by those who tow the car (as opposed to a car on a trailer) includes the simplicity of the arrangement (hitching up etc), the improved stability of a towed car on four wheels rather than a trailer on two wheels or twin axles close together, storage on site and at home. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 slightly off of the initial question, but check with your insurers, both car and motorhome. Your car insurer is likely to say that in an accident the car was neither stationary (parked) or being driven, so there is an unidentified risk to them in that it is proceeding down the road effectively driverless. So tell them what you intend. Ditto the van insurer, towing a trailor is one thing, 2 or 4 close coupled wheels on a trailor. towing a driverless car another. I know it all sounds that I may be being a bit fussy but better safe than sorry if unfortunately you have to make a claim. Good luck and safe journeys Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Rod & Sue - 2008-07-28 3:24 PM Hi We have a Swift Kon-Tiki on a Fiat Ducato chassi and we have bought a little Peugeot 106 to tow behind us on an A frame, we have had a plug fitted to the front of the car that operates the cars lights when we indicate or brake ect so we do not need to use a trailer board we just plug in a short lead, but I was just wondering if I will need to display the number plate of the motorhome on the rear of the car or an "ON TOW" plate could someone please inform me of what I should do legally. Regards Rod :-D Their is a large thread covering this subject on the motor home facts forum. If you look, at what I seem to remember, is the very first post on this thread someone lays out the current requirements in a very concise manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I just wonder if the MAM of a car towed on an A frame is a red herring. The MAM is established by the maker during the course of obtaining type approval as a motor vehicle. In the UK there is no requirement for a trailer to have type approval. When towed the car becomes a trailer and it could be argued type approval as a vehicle is irrelevant. If that is correct long as the car did not weigh more then 750 kg the user could fix their own 750 kg MAM plate and it could run unbraked. (Remember that on a 3500kg MAM vehicle braking distance will increase by at least 20 percent) Is there anyone brave/ wealthy enough to chance crossing that legal minefield? Just stirring the pot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 you is mixin it gorge my biddy you is mixin it me ansum. remove the engine from the car and it could then be perceeved to be a trailer. add an engine to a trailer and it could then be perceeved to be a car. uou cant av it both ways my biddy, and you nos it!!! flippinfred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 Rod & Sue I didn't answer the number plate question as I thought it had been answered already but just to be safe, my understanding is: Yes you will need a number plate matching your motorhome's number on the rear of your car and the car's number plate should be covered up. Your car will not be 'on tow' in the normal sense so an 'on tow' car should not be displayed. As for why I mentioned about he braked 'A' frame ... I think the others have made this clear ... I have been having trouble with my broadband connection, hence why my posting was short. I hope you manage to get sorted so you can use your new 'toy'.:-D To digress .... George - Look up - you've got mail!!!!!! :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 George Collings - 2008-07-29 6:27 PM I just wonder if the MAM of a car towed on an A frame is a red herring. The MAM is established by the maker during the course of obtaining type approval as a motor vehicle. In the UK there is no requirement for a trailer to have type approval. When towed the car becomes a trailer and it could be argued type approval as a vehicle is irrelevant. If that is correct long as the car did not weigh more then 750 kg the user could fix their own 750 kg MAM plate and it could run unbraked. (Remember that on a 3500kg MAM vehicle braking distance will increase by at least 20 percent) Is there anyone brave/ wealthy enough to chance crossing that legal minefield? Just stirring the pot Sorry George but even as a trailer with a MAM of less than 750KGs if it has brakes then they must be operated by an over-run device. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Also 'sorry george', but trailer law specifies very clearly that if the MAM of the trailer exceeds 750 Kgs then it must be braked. ALL trailers built after 1980-something must have a plate declaring the MAM and this is regardless of type approval requirements. Yes, there is nothing specific in law about whether an A-frame towed car actually becomes a trailer, but that's simply because the law-makers didn't think of that happening. They know it does now and will doubtless include relevant provisions in the next EU Directive on Vehicle and Trailer Law. Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stantheman Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Bet you're sorry you asked, Rod?!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michele Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 :D I suppose its good to see a sense of humour on here . Hope you get it sorted anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Why not buy a caravan and tow it with a decent car, makes a lot more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I tow a car on a trailer, and I have meet Ruperts many times, however when nipping off to the supermarket in the car I'am always amazed how many are only to quick to jump aboard to join me. Roy (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Sue Posted July 30, 2008 Author Share Posted July 30, 2008 Hi and thanx for all the advice we have been given, but when we bought the A Frame, I asked if it was legal to to a Peugiot 106 behind a motorhome and was told it would be fine as long as we never used it in Germany as their law would nat accept it. Looks like we need a small trailer and re sell the A Frame. Thanx again ALL :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 takeaflight - 2008-07-30 6:07 PM I tow a car on a trailer, and I have meet Ruperts many times, however when nipping off to the supermarket in the car I'am always amazed how many are only to quick to jump aboard to join me. Roy (lol) Roy would be quite happy to jump into your car if you had a caravan, chances are it would then be a proper car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Rupert you would be more than welcome. Someone said "it's better to have a bad ride than a good walk " or something to that effect. Mind you I am sure you will are familiar with both. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Dave is correct I forgot the brakes have to work if fitted. For type approval the MAM is set taking in factors such as the load of passengers and luggage and abilty to make repeated hill starts. These factors have no revelence when the car is just a trailer when the MAM could be perhaps 300 kg lower. (This might be usefull for tugs with a limited GTW( some Transits for instance). As trailers have no type approval what is to stop anyone fixing their own weight limit and plate. Still stirring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.