Itexuk Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 My Vin plate shows: 4005 Kg Gross 6505 KG 1) 2100 kg 2) 2400 KG What do these figures mean? Also my log book shows 3400 Kg Gross, should that not be 4005KG? Thanks Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I would have thought so ! However there are advantages if you can prove you are under 3400 kg in some countries as it saves on tolls. Could be a problem if Mr Plodd takes it into his head that you are over loaded @ 3400kg but under 4005 kg Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Itexuk - 2008-08-07 1:28 PM My Vin plate shows: 4005 Kg Gross 6505 KG 1) 2100 kg 2) 2400 KG What do these figures mean? Also my log book shows 3400 Kg Gross, should that not be 4005KG? Thanks Pete Hi pete The figures relate to: Gross Vehicle Weight (also known as Maximum Allowable Mass or MAM) Gross Train Weight - the maximumweight of the van and any trailer. Maximum Front Axle Weight Maximum Rear Axle Weight As you probably know, none of these should be exceeded or you could face heavy fines if pulled and weighed. The original chassis would have been 3400kg but the converters have uprated the chassis to 4005kg to give extra payload (the amount of weight left to carry you, your passengers, clothes, food, any extyras you have fitted etc etc. It doesn't really matter that the weight in your handbook is different - the weight plate is the one that counts. Apart from lowere speed limits abroad etc (as Tony says) the main thing to check is that you have the correct category of licence to drive a vehicle over 3500kg. Anyone passing their test after 1 January 1997 cannot drive such a vehicle without taking a further test to give them the category to drive vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Itexuk Posted August 7, 2008 Author Share Posted August 7, 2008 Thanks for your replies. Yes I have a licence for up to 7500kg, passed my test 40 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor S Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hi Pete. I have been finding out about mh weights myself recently, having just bought a Miami that the dealer tells me has a GVW of 3850, although the vin plate shows 3500. I also thought that my registration certificate was incorrect as it states Revenue weight - 3050 kg gross, so I rang DVLA. Strangely, the Revenue weight as shown in the reg cert is NOT the gross weight. It is the unladen weight of the vehicle. So my 3500 kg VIN plated van will have a payload of 450 kg. Auto trail states the Miami payload is 400 kg, I guess the 50 kg difference is to err on the side of safety. Your vehicles unladen weight is 3400 kg and as your VIN plate shows 4005, your payload should be appx 600 kg. What I have not figured out yet is how to find out if the dealer is right about my van being uprated to 3850. Can anyone help me with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twooks Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hi Trevor n welcome, manufacturer's figures are often a little bit err err err less than straightforward when it comes to giving payload weights. you need to find out exactly what they've seen fit to include. The official vehicle figures are as taken before any conversion. Simplest way is to find a weighbridge, weigh the vehicle in full touring trim - this will tell you if you're overweight or not - could also try weighing it 'empty' - there's a web site somewhere that gives details of local weighbridges - google should find one near you what the VIN plate says goes - so make sure that the figures are shown correctly, you should have the paperwork to show the chassis was uprated - go back and hassle the dealer B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Trevor S - 2008-08-07 10:53 PM Hi Pete. I have been finding out about mh weights myself recently, having just bought a Miami that the dealer tells me has a GVW of 3850, although the vin plate shows 3500. I also thought that my registration certificate was incorrect as it states Revenue weight - 3050 kg gross, so I rang DVLA. Strangely, the Revenue weight as shown in the reg cert is NOT the gross weight. It is the unladen weight of the vehicle. So my 3500 kg VIN plated van will have a payload of 450 kg. Auto trail states the Miami payload is 400 kg, I guess the 50 kg difference is to err on the side of safety. Your vehicles unladen weight is 3400 kg and as your VIN plate shows 4005, your payload should be appx 600 kg. What I have not figured out yet is how to find out if the dealer is right about my van being uprated to 3850. Can anyone help me with that? I think you have - and you are not the first - been misinformed by the DVLA! There is a document V355/1 issued by DVLA which is entitled "Notes about Taxation Classes". I suggest you ask them for a copy. This states, with definitions, that "Revenue Weight" is the term used specifically for HGVs (i.e. vehicles over 3,500Kg MAM) to describe their maxim permissible weight.If you vehicle has been uprated to 3850, it must show on the maker's plate. As the vehicle was not made as a motorhome by Fiat etc, but was converted, it may be that there is another plate supplied by the converter. However, if no such plate exists, the vehicle must be treated as 3500Kg until a higher figure can be proved and the correct plate supplied. If you load over 3500Kg and you are stopped, the police will rely on the figure on the plate, and will regard your vehicle as overloaded. Do get this sorted out, it is your dealer's obligation to do this if he sold you the van as plated at 3850Kg.If your van is proved/plated at 3850Kg it is an HGV. 3850Kg should be entered in the V5C against "revenue weight", and the correct taxation class will be Private HGV, or PHGV. The rate of road tax will also change.The only way to determine your payload is to take your unladen (ideally with no water, waste, gas or toilet cassette contents) van to a public weighbridge and weigh it. Subtract that weight from its MAM (or revenue weight) and that is your crude payload. However, don't forget that has to accommodate everything in and on the van, including driver and passengers.David Lloyd's explanation of the figures on the plate is spot on, so Pete should do likewise and get his V5C sorted out with the correct weight shown. His 'van is definitely in the PHGV class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor S Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Thanks Twooks and Brian. You would think that when you go to the horses mouth (DVLA) the information they give would be correct! Your replies have thrown some light on one aspect though. When I rang DVLA, they told me that if the weight had been uprated it would be shown as PHGV rather than PLGV. So I rang the dealer that originally supplied the van to the previous owner. Guess what! He (trying to be helpful) said the DVLA was wrong and that there was no way that the MH could be a PHGV. So much for that line of enquiry! I will get the V355/1, go to a weighbridge and then decide what to do from there. As a bike rack has been fitted, I suspect I will be pretty much on the 3500kg limit. Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted August 8, 2008 Share Posted August 8, 2008 Trevor, It's worth noting that the data on the V5 are simply taken by the DVLA from a form completed by whoever registers the vehicle - usually the supplying dealer. As you discovered, they can get it awfully wrong! UNLADEN WEIGHT ============= We tend to use labels rather loosely, but it's worth noting that Unladen Weight is actually defined in Law. It is the empty weight of the vehicle without liquids (ie., no fuel, water, but engine oil and coolant are included in ULW), without loose tools and equipment and with nobody on board. In the case of a van, therefore, ladders are not included, but the permanently installed roof rack for them is. In the case of a motorhome, cycle racks would be included, but gas bottles, if removable, wouldn't. The importance of ULW is that motorhomes with a ULW exceeding 3050Kgs (ie., 3 old imperial tons - the law's that old!) are subject to lower speed limits of 50 on single and 60 on dual carriageway roads. However, since ULW is not given on the vehicle plate, I have no idea how PC Plod is expected to know what yours is! Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Mel E - 2008-08-08 12:09 PM .........However, since ULW is not given on the vehicle plate, I have no idea how PC Plod is expected to know what yours is!.......... Mel E ==== Mel E With instant technology now available in traffic cars they have access to the relevent databases and could, if they so wish, get the revenue weight of a PHGV over 3500kg? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Itexuk One other point, you could if you so wish, tow upto 2500kgs. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 david lloyd - 2008-08-09 9:50 AM Mel E - 2008-08-08 12:09 PM .........However, since ULW is not given on the vehicle plate, I have no idea how PC Plod is expected to know what yours is!.......... Mel E ==== Mel E With instant technology now available in traffic cars they have access to the relevent databases and could, if they so wish, get the revenue weight of a PHGV over 3500kg? David But David, the revenue weight, as above, is the term used (according to DVLA) for the MAM of an HGV. The DVLA database not, therefore, reveal the unladen weight, which is not recorded on the V5C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Oops, sorry Brian - I misread your earlier post and attributed it to PHGV also. That said, it's another good example of how successive legislation (without clearing out the old legislation and definitions) can just become confusing for the average person in the street. As far as I can gather the unladen weight of a vehicle is no longer actively used for any practical purpose as the MAM has replaced this in terms of driving licence or road restrictions. I know that some road restrictions like weak bridges or car parks used to carry an 'unladen weight' limit but it's unlikely that any vehicle will be committing an offence on the road in an 'unladen' state -i.e. with no fuel, water etc. There may be some technical reason for manufacturers, or even converters to refer to unladen weight, but perhaps it would have been better to eradicate this form of measurement. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 David, Whist I agree with you entirely about obsolescent measures, the fact is that ULW is still used in the UK to determine speed limits as noted in earlier postings in this thread. In every other EU country it is MAM that determines speed and other limits - but not in the UK. Mel E ==== Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Mel E - 2008-08-10 1:10 PM David, Whist I agree with you entirely about obsolescent measures, the fact is that ULW is still used in the UK to determine speed limits as noted in earlier postings in this thread. In every other EU country it is MAM that determines speed and other limits - but not in the UK. Mel E ==== Thanks Mel E But it does make my point though - why do we keep these bits of old law - especially when other countries have moved on to more relevent measures? As I am still on the working group pursuing the establishment of an aire here in Guisborough (yes, really, after all this time) I'm sure the guy from Parking dept mentioned that car parks are still governed by unladen weight also - but as has been said earlier, how on earth can anyone tell what the unladen weight is? Much more sensible to refer to MAM on all issues. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 david lloyd - 2008-08-10 5:36 PM Mel E - 2008-08-10 1:10 PM David, Whist I agree with you entirely about obsolescent measures, the fact is that ULW is still used in the UK to determine speed limits as noted in earlier postings in this thread. In every other EU country it is MAM that determines speed and other limits - but not in the UK. Mel E ==== Thanks Mel E But it does make my point though - why do we keep these bits of old law - especially when other countries have moved on to more relevent measures? As I am still on the working group pursuing the establishment of an aire here in Guisborough (yes, really, after all this time) I'm sure the guy from Parking dept mentioned that car parks are still governed by unladen weight also - but as has been said earlier, how on earth can anyone tell what the unladen weight is? Much more sensible to refer to MAM on all issues. David Cynically, I suppose, because passing new, headline grabbing legislation is soooooooooo much more newsworthy that rationalising what already exists. Oh yes, and it's messy, and complicated, and makes your poor little head hurt! And that is before you try working out which flavour of police has which powers over whom in respect of which laws. Job for some poor soul there, somewhere. New branch of consultancy? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Should we volunteer our services, Brian? David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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