Handbrakes

[ozone]

My Autotrail Arapahoe Motorhome has just failed its MOT as the handbrake was not up to standard, the pads have plenty of life in them and the discs are in excellent order, footbrake passed with flying colours, we have checked everything but we cannot find any problem, does anyone out there have any ideas and/or have had a similar problem. I would appreciate your comments.

 

Many thanks

 

Dave

[Derek Uzzell]

Dave:

 

I think all Autotrail Arapaho motorhomes (whatever their model year?) have been constructed on a tandem-axle AL-KO chassis.

 

I've searched through the forum using "handbrake" as the search term. This retrieved quite a few threads and, although many were plainly irrelevant to your inquiry and I haven't browsed through all the rest, there is some immediately available evidence that relatively poor handbrake performance is not uncommon with that chassis.

 

I'm not sure if there is any magic trick that will perk up your motorhome's handbrake 'grip' and it's probably just a matter of optimising everything and hoping this will be enough to get the vehicle through the MOT. (Finding an MOT testing-station that is motorhome-familiar might help too!)

 

These are links to two earlier threads that mention poor Fiat handbrakes:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=7174&posts=16

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=10565&posts=6

 

[ozone]

Hi Derek

 

Many thanks for the response, I will check on the links, you are right about the MOT friendly station unfortunately my Garage took the vehicle (Because of Length) to an HGV testing station, we are currently stripping down all linkage and adjusting where needs be, I am also going to fill the drinking water and waste water tanks in the hope that a little bit of weight might help, I will let you know, keep your fingers crossed.

 

Kind regards

 

Dave

[BGD]

Just a thought, but the MOT test of handrake efficiency isn't there to punish you/me but in reality to keep you, your vehicle, and everyone else safe.

 

If your MH can't presently reach even the minimum standard for braking efficiency needed to pass the MOT, then it's potentially dangerous.

 

Parking on slopes, hillstarts etc, all rely on an effective handbrake.

Any insurance claim after an accident would I imagine be jeopardised if the Police or Accident Investigator discovered that an illegally substandard handbrake had been a contributory factor.

 

Best to do whatever is needed not just to get it to scrape through the minimum efficiency barrier, but to get it operating substantially in excess of that legal minimum....on the assumption that braking efficiency is going to tail off in the months after MOT test date.

 

 

[ROND]

Hello Ozone,

I have a Autotrail apache on the Fiat 2.8 new in 2004, when we took it for its first MOT it failed dismaly on the handbrake, that was 2 days after a full fiat service so back we went. Despite almost a full days work the Fiat garage could not get it up to the required standard, the pads were like new with no wear, they adjusted everything by the book and also tried over adjusting but no good at all so they contcated Fiat UK who set up a case number and contacted myself.

The garage foreman had told me the brakes were built for a small van and not a 3.85 ton motorhome, I told Fiat UK this and aslo Fiat italy, the result of that was the garage foreman changing his tune and denying he said that.

Fiat then instructed them to fit a different type of pads i think they were of a softer material but that did the trick and it has since passed the MOT and the following year too.

The pads are tiny for a motorhome of that size and i would be very surprised if others havent had the same problem.

RD

[ozone]

Hi RD

 

Many thanks for the info, I am going to see the garage on Monday and advise them as to the pad problem, as I see it the only alternative is to get the softer pads fitted, I have emailed Autotrail but I wont hold my breath for a solution sometime soon, I just find it difficult to understand if this has been a long time problem why Autotrail/Fiat have not sent out advisory notices to owners. Love the vehicle but the handbrake is not just there for ornamental purposes it does have a safety purpose.

 

I would like to thank all who have assisted in the problem, this is my first time using a forum such as this, although I have been Motorhoming for a few years now, and I shall use it more in the future, once again thanks all.

 

Dave

[ozone]

Hi RD and all.

 

Great news the vehicle passed today, and I did as suggested softened up the pads. I did however get in touch with Auto trail who in turn put me in touch with Al-Ko who called today and when I mentioned the problem that I had did say that they had not had any complaints like this before, he did however state that should the handbrake be applied whilst the vehicle is in forward motion, however slight, and that this would knock the discs out of kilter and they would have to be reset????? I have agreed to send him the brake efficiency readings, before and after so that he could check them out, I must say that he was helpful and I have no problem keeping him informed. However just one little problem if as they say that the handbrake being applied during forward motion will upset the balance of the pads etc; surely then by putting this type of vehicle on a rolling road it is doing exactly that, i/e applying forward motion on the wheels.

 

Excuse the pun but I suppose that this issue will keep on rolling on.

 

Anyway as said previously many thanks RD and all the rest that gave assistance.

 

Many thanks

 

Dave

[colin]

Sounds like Al-ko and Fiat may use the same person to handle complaints *-)

Or maybe the designer went from designing Al-ko brakes to Fiat gearbox's

[ozone]

Hi Colin

 

You are probably right on that point, but at least I got my Van through in the end.

 

 

Dave

[colin]

Maybe some one would like to explain to Al-ko that appling handbrake whilst vehicle is moving is a requirement of MOT, which makes one think are we the only country this applies to?

[ozone]

Hi Colin

 

I have sent the email to Al-ko with exactly that message, I am beginning to wonder whether they thought that the handbrake was just ornamental and for somewhere to hang your hat on, I have been told that they will contact me soon to discuss this further, I will keep all concerned posted as to the response.

 

Regards

 

Dave (ozone)

[BGD]

Isn't it illegal for a manufacturer/converter to sell any new vehicle in the UK which does not comply with all the UK's Construction & Use regulations.........?

[Dave Newell]

As far as I'm aware the handbrake on these vehicles is done by shoes inside a drum which is formed as the central hub of the brake disc. The pads have nothing to do with the handbrake.

 

D.

[ROND]

Dave Newell - 2008-08-20 8:26 AM

 

As far as I'm aware the handbrake on these vehicles is done by shoes inside a drum which is formed as the central hub of the brake disc. The pads have nothing to do with the handbrake.

 

D.

 

 

Yes you are right, they are tiny little shoes in a drum more suited to a mini than a commercial vehicle, unfortunately i am no expert unlike some so please make allowanaces for us idjuts when we call them pads and not shoes i know technically we are wrong as pads are used on discs .

[ozone]

I Started it I'll take the kicking wrong terminology ooooppppssss!!

 

Dave

[davenewellhome]

Hey guys chill :-). it was meant as a correction of detail not an admonishment for getting it "wrong" ;-)

 

D.

[ozone]

Hi Dave

 

No offence taken I'm chilled thanks for the info

 

 

Dave :D

[colin]

We had a problem with Gnome-Rhone motorbike brakes a couple of weeks back, sent shoes off for relining with softer material on a monday, got them back on wednesday which I thought was good service, I think companies name was AVS (cards at work and I'm on "gardening leave" at moment :-( )

[Derek Uzzell]

I seem to recall something in MMM's "Interchange" about brake problems potentially resulting from applying a motorhome's handbrake while the vehicle was in motion.

 

The difficulty is that a device that used to be considered valuable as a back-up to a vehicle's primary braking system (which presumably is why it's checked on a rolling-road during the UK's MOT test), is now regarded by vehicle manufacturers as appropriate for parking duties only, and the design of the braking mechanisms reflects the latter philosophy. Besides which, in the unlikely event that your motorhome's dual-circuit braking system has failed totally, you'd be better off praying to Saint Ferodo than trying to slow the vehicle by hauling on the handbrake, particularly if your 'van hasn't got 'full size' drum-brakes at the rear.

 

My Transit's handbook describes how the handbrake should be operated and, although there's no specific "Don't use the handbrake while the vehicle is moving" warning, it's plain that advice that begins "Press the foot brake pedal firmly" implies that the vehicle should be stationary before the handbrake is applied.

 

Although AL-KO manufactures the chassis and rear axles/suspension for Fiat-based tandem-axle motorhomes, the brakes themselves will be pure Fiat. Just out of curiosity, does the handbrake on such vehicles operate the brakes on both rear axles or just the forward one of the pair?

 

It will be interesting to learn AL-KO's response to Dave's e-mail.

[ozone]

Hi Derek

 

Just logged on and saw your posting, I have forwarded the details to Al-ko but as yet have received no reply, however I shall persevere and I shall keep emailing and ringing until I do get a response, I shall then forward the details on. seemingly the handbrake linkage operates the forward axle and the front brakes this I find somewhat confusing as this is not what the fitter described at the garage where I had the test carried out, this came from Al-ko, I agree with what you have said as it makes sense, if you were reliant on the handbrake stopping you I think its a case of stick your head between your knee's and kiss it goodbye, for all the good it does you might as well fit horse shoes instead pf brake shoes. Another pearl from you know who was to firmly place the foot on the foot brake and then operate the handbrake as this will increase the pressure on the rear drums. Now you tell me that they did not know of the problem previously.

Well now that he vehicle is once again fully taxed, tested and insured I am away down country for a week, I will let you know the outcome from AL-Ko as and when I have the response.

 

 

 

Dave :-D :-D

[colin]

Believe me, if you have total failure of hydraulic system you will be greatfull of what ever braking the handbrake will give, been there got the teeshirt twice.

[Rainbow-Chasers]

Tag axles are notoriously hard work. You can replace ever component and it will still fail! I worked at a citroen dealer and we had a couple of tags, the earlier one was a pain as they were basically indespension units, the later ones are proper axles. Although still a maintenance headache as they never work very well!

 

All i can say is take it to a specialist who knows the tricks and persevere. It used to take us months to get the early one through the mot, and then it only ever scraped through! It's just a problematic design!