Which tyres

[tezza]

I am about to change my two front tyres on my Ace Naopli, but with what.

Can anyone recommend a good all round tyre, currently using the Michelin XC Camper.

 

The agilis sounds good but is supposed to be suspect in the wet

The vanco is good in the wet but no reports of it's ware rate

The XC is also suspect in the wet, although i have had no issues with mine

 

any help would be welcome.

 

Tezza

 

[colin]

I have not used the 'new' agilis, but have not found any problems with 'old' agilis in wet.

[LordThornber]

I have the new Agilis, which replaced our XC's. They're quieter whilst MPG and dry grip have improved too.

 

Can't report on wet use, (believe that or not!), as we seem to have been lucky whilst actually travelling.

 

Martyn

[Derek Uzzell]

Tezza:

 

I'm guessing that your views are based on a report in the German magazine Pro-Mobil. It does need emphasising that this report was published in June 2002 (ie. over 6 years ago) and compared tyres that were then available that might provide an alternative to Michelin's XC Camping 'camping-car' pattern.

 

The tyre-size tested was 215/75 R16C (the size most used on large, heavy motorhomes) and, because the 8-ply-rated XC Camping was claimed to have a significant (though unspecified by Michelin) tolerance to overload, the other tyres were all 10-ply-rated commercial patterns (eg. Continental's Vanco-10 and Michelin's Agilis-101) to provide a high design load-bearing capability. The test results revealed XC Camping to be a lacklustre performer in the wet, but it does need remembering that 10-ply-rated tyres are rarely fitted to motorhomes as original equipment and seldom retro-fitted by owners.

 

As far as I'm aware, there are no recent independently-obtained data relating to 'motorhome suitable' tyres. I had Agilis-81 pattern (now superseded) on my last motorhome and they seemed OK in the wet: I've got Continental Vanco-8 on my present motorhome and their wet-weather performance seems OK too. It's also going to be true that an ABS-equipped motorhome on tyres with a none-too-special wet-surface grip will brake better and more safely than a motorhome without ABS fitted with tyres having very good wet-grip. Tyre wear, at least to some extent, will depend on the particular vehicle and how it is driven.

 

If you want to continue to use specialised 'camping-car' tyres, then you'll have to choose between Continental, Michelin (XC Camping has now been superseded) or Pirelli brands. Michelin's recently-introduced revised "Agilis" would probably be the best on-paper choice for a non-camping-car tyre - primarily because it's new - but there are plenty of alternatives.

 

(See MMM June 2008, page 25, for article on the latest Michelin Agilis tyres.)

[Derek Uzzell]

Tezza:

 

Some afterthoughts...

 

1: As motorhomes' spare-wheels can be beggars to access, it's not that uncommon for them to remain unused while the tyres on the remaining wheels become worn out and require replacement. Tyres (like people) will gradually deteriorate with age even if they lead a life of total leisure, so, if your Ace's spare-wheel and tyre hasn't yet been fitted, it would make economic sense to bring it into play sooner rather than later. I expect the spare-wheel has a Michelin XC Camping tyre and you should still be able to find another one of the same type (as XC Camping was superseded only recently) which would allow you to make up a matching 'axle-set'.

 

2: Received wisdom and the recommendation from tyre manufacturers is that (irrespective of whether a vehicle is front- or rear-wheel drive) when replacing an axle-set of tyres the least worn tyres should be fitted to the rear axle of the vehicle. The reasoning behind this is that, if tyre-grip is lost and the vehicle begins to skid, it is preferable for safety reasons for the loss of grip to be at the front wheels rather than the rear.

 

In your case, if you put brand-new, deep-treaded, high wet-grip tyres on your motorhome's front wheels, leaving part-worn, nothing-special wet-grip, XC Camping tyres on the rear, there's a fair likelihood that, during a wet-weather emergency manoeuvre (or even hard cornering on a slippery surface), it's going to be the rear tyres that will break away first. Few motorhome drivers would relish the thought of the rear end of their vehicle making a strenuous effort to overtake the front!

 

Admittedly the 'best tyres at the rear' philosophy does present owners of FWD motorhomes with a dilemma as, for optimum traction, you need the tyres with the best grip to be on the driven wheels. No answer to this conundrum I'm afraid, except perhaps to replace all the vehicle's tyres simultaneously rather than an axle at a time.

[starvin marvin]

I need to change a worn tyre, thats right a worn tyre! a Michelin Agilis for a Fiat Ducato 15" I've costed them as follows:-

 

Michelin Agilis 81 £95

Contintental Vanco £85

Pirelli & Firestone £75

Hankook £69

Matador £55

 

All these prices are inclusive of valves, balancing, disposal of the old casing and the dreaded vat.

 

All the people I've spoke to now and in the past, all wonder why anyone wants to pay Michelin money. When you tell them its for a campervan they wonder even more, as we know mostly tyres are changed on age basis rather than wear. I guess any of these are better for low rolling resistence, low spead turning than the old XC, which I had on an old r/wheel drive, no power steering vehicle. when I changed to the Agilis it was so much easier.

 

My new tyre will go onto the spare and the current spare which is also Michelin will go on the vehicle, all due to a previous puncture which. destroyed the tyre.

 

Interesting dilemma, I understand the Matador is a high tonnage tyre for the white van men, but thats what gets used, so I'm told.

 

£26 to be saved if I go for the Hankook, and I'm very price sensitive.

 

But I've used loads of Michelin tyres on cars over the years X's, ZX's, XZX'x etc etc and all have been good but you make your choice and pay for it.

 

Best tyres for me go on the front regardless, as your front tyres are what stop you most.

[Mel E]

Vanco

====

 

We have Vancos on our Renault Master van conversion. I tracked the wear and switched the tyres front to back at 22,000 miles (cost me £15 at my local tyre place). This should give me 44,000 miles on the set, with the tread down to about 2.5mm.

 

I hate Michelin!! Most of our new cars have come with them and it is nearly always impossible to get the same tyre and tread pattern when replacement is needed, quite regardless of cost. Michelin always seem to be out of stock or to have changed their range and tread pattern. Call me a wimp, but I do not like mixing tread patterns on the same axle.

 

Hankook

======

 

We've used Hankook on a car (our Matiz tow car) and they were excellent. But again (the Michelin influence) we could get any when we needed replacements so went for Kumho which destroyed the car's ride.

 

Mel E

====

[trooper]

Sorry a bit off topic

most experianced drivers can control a rear wheel skid/slide, vertualy no one can control a front wheel slide, plus fronts do most braking, with ABS the rear wheels shouldnt slide on braking. just a thought as to which axle for new tyres.

just my opinion

Cheers

[colin]

We have been throu the rear/front debate before, there was even a link to a video posted showing how badly a vehicle behaves if rears lock up first, I have first hand experience of what happens when I was driving a hire van with worn rears, you may think I'm inexperianced at controling rear wheel drift, not so one of my cars has around 200bhp@700kg with rear wheel drive, the back end will step out with the slieghtess of provacation I am quite happy driving this but will not drive with new tyres on front and worn on rears, but then I'm not talking of badly worn tyres I always replace my tyres before they reach the legal limit.

[starvin marvin]

I agree with Mel I don't like mixing tyres on the same axle, but I think thats come from increased affluence over the years. I can recall driving cars (or nails) legally with 4 different tread patterns and depths but then I was skint. The change came from a side wall blow out on a remould on an old Cortina loaded up with camping gear and the family. Never bought really cheap tyres since.

 

I think the advice is to match tyres on the same axle. The spare is slightly different but if you want to be belt and braces you would match that with the rest if possible. I also think that if a well known named product is available at a discount you've got to consider it.

 

If a set of tyres last say 45 to 50k loads of users are not going to do that kind of mileage in 5 years so you could save money. I used to regularly drive easily 1k/month in cars and ordinary vans and that would eat tyres.

[colin]

Here's the link to video

http://www.michelinman.com/tire-care/tire-basics/reartire-change/

There was also a bit on 5th gear with a demo, pretty much the same outcome.

[tezza]

Thanks to all who replied, my rear tyres are like new, but the front two are just on the legal limit, the van is used every day and is currently on 19K, bit high for a two year old van, but i didn't buy it not to use it.

I have settled on the Agilis and see how they go, like the man said you pay your money and all that, I called all my local tyre places and all had the same answer, we don't stock them, but we can get them, if Michelin have them, same with all camper tyres, Vanco included.

The best price i had was £122 from etyres, just waiting for a phone call now to fit them.

 

Thanks again

 

Terry

[colin]

So my suggestion to you is have rears swopped to front and new tyres put on rear, that way you get best tyres on rear, also you don't end up with realy old tyres on rear in a couple of years that need replacing due to age but have lots of tread on.

[Derek Uzzell]

Terry:

 

As you've gone through a set of front tyres in just 19k miles, I suggest you get your motorhome's tracking checked ASAP. No point in putting nice new tyres on a vehicle if its tracking is out of alignment.

 

[tezza]

Derek

 

The tracking is fine, the tyres are worn evenly, i took the van to my local tyre depot and he suggested that i have a few months left yet but looking at them the tread does seem a bit low, there is not much gap between the tread and the marker spot on the tyre. Perhaps i am being too quick in changing them but they don't look like they would give me much in the way of traction in the wet.

The van is used every day as a second car, averaging 9-10K per year, if I remember rightly, the XC tyres on my last van (Sundance 590RS) were also on the verge of needing changing, but we changed the van just on the second service date, so didn't need to.

Thanks for your concern though.

 

Tezza

 

Tezza

 

 

[Brambles]

Tezza,

I agree with Colin, New tyres on rear. If you put the new Agilis Camping on Front you not only have newer tread on the Front but a much better tyre design for grip, making the rear end very much the poor end for loosing grip....something you do not want. So no question on that count in respect of recommendations ..new on rear. However do not go thinking you should have stuck with XCs which are not easily available now - you need to move forward and next pair of new tyres can see you with Agilis all round.

 

I fitted Agilis Camping befor summer hols and have done 5000miles in all sorts of terrains, including snow...yes snow. They are far superior to XCs in all ways and I am delighted with them. Unfortunately you will not feel the full benefit until you replace your remaining XCs but should notice the rear end has a slightly softer ride.

 

However if you have not ordered yet, have you considered using your spare and trying to get hold of just one XC camping. This will keep all your tyres the same. You will then get away with putting the new on the front as rear are still 3/4 tread and will not be long before they are all evened up. (kind of contradicts my comments in 1st paragraph!) A couple of mountain passes like the Umbrail will take a mm of the front :-S .

 

Anyway - just my idle thoughts and pennies worth for the thread.

[Brambles]

Ahhhh, just read you are waiting for fitting - Go with it, and forget what I said end last post. Next set of tyres wil get you all balanced up and wil be worth it in my view. Honestly the Agilis Camping is superb compared to the XCs. in many respects. Technology on tyres and rubber materials/plies etc has advanced a lot since the XC was developed.

[tezza]

Thanks to all for our comments, i'll let you know my thougts of the agilis when i have had time to use them.

 

Terry

 

[Brambles]

Terry,

What tyre pressure are you running at in Front tyres, as 19K is not a lot of miles?

Jon

[tezza]

Jon

 

The front are running at 65, they are wearing very evenly, the local tyre chap commented on how well matched the two front were, what sort of milage would you expect to get?

As i said earlier, the van is used as a second car and probably does more milage than the car (long story but not for here).

 

 

[Brambles]

Terry,

Its very hard to predict tyre wear as it all comes down to driving style and how hard you accelerate in lower gears, but I would have thought somewhere over 25K to aim for and if you are light footed over 30K easily for the fronts and over 40K for the rear. But!! everyone is different and someone I know only gets under 10K on his front tyres but he drives fast and has a tag axle on rear and a lot of weight to pull, along with insisting 80psi is correct.

He is wrong. If you look at the max front permitted axle weights for the Fiat it equates to a tyre pressure of max 60 psi. Looking at the Ace napoli I would have thought 55psi max when you are loaded up maybe 50 normally laden (but that is purely a guess). Even allowing 60psi, and adding that extra 5psi to 65 will increase wear dramatically and could easily cost you 5K miles of extra wear, a harder ride and reduced safety braking in the wet.

 

So what to do? Take a note of your max permissable axle weights (of data plate on vehicle), as you should not be going above them, Also next time you are loaded up for a hol, get your vehicle axles weighed at a local Public (or private) weighbride. Ask Michelin ( you can email and they are quick to reply) for recommended pressures for the figures, tyre size and type you give them.

 

Incidently, tyre wear is fairly even across the tread on XCs v pressure as the tread belts are fairly rigid keeping and even contact across the tread.

Unlike car tyres where a few psi can cause inner section to wear faster.

What the very even wear does tell you though is your tracking and wheel alignment looks good.

[panagah]

19k, is not unreasnable for replacing tyres. If the van is used every day and you do lots of short trips with lots of braking being used on a heavy van then although a gentle driver would extend this, any white van man will tell you it not unusual. All the power on a FWD goes through those bits of rubber as we know.

 

On topic, I replaced my tyres with 4 new xc tyres in February. I dont know what some of you fuss about. Mine are ace, have seen me up in the alps in snow and through rain in bends without a problem. If I choose to take up motorhome racing then some points are very valid. For me I will sitck with what came on the van as new.

[starvin marvin]

Agilis at £122 is that for 2 tyres or each? I was quoted £95 all in for one tyre.

[tezza]

Tony

 

That's each, could not find cheaper, Kwik Fit were £137, King David were £125, can't remember what black circle were, but not cheaper, costco were cheaper but when you add the joining fee they are in the same bracket as everyone else, in the end went to Etyres, fitted at home so no wasted fuel going to them, valves, balance and disposal of old tyre.

 

 

[Brambles]

Starvin, maybe your tyres are a smaller size to Terry's. Would explain cheaper price.