IVAN Posted August 31, 2008 Share Posted August 31, 2008 We have recently arrived back from Croatia, which is not the reason i am writing.Setting off from home i saw that the charge in the leisure battery was virtually nil, travelling 285 miles to Dover i thought it would not be a problem as running would charge it up(or so i thought) It kept the fridge light on but on arrival in the car park in Calais port we had to rely on a torch to put ourselves to bed. The next day on arrival at a camp site i charged the battery up having had the foresight to take a charger with us.The rest of the holiday there was no problem at all, although we spent each night on sites with an electrical hook-up. After 3 weeks the battery was in the same condition as after the initial charge...........The van is a Mclouis 410 2002 vintage.We have owned the van for 3 years and had no problems, this was its 6th foreign jaunt. I have looked at what i assume is the zig unit under the passenger seat and all looks ok, although there is no switches or lights on, so i am only guessing that it is ok and that it is a zig unit.....can anybody shed any light on this or is this normal...I have owned campers for over 20 years but have never had these sort of problems so this is new to me.........thanks in anticpation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I think the prime suspect must be the leisure battery itself, particularly if it is the original one that would now be at least six years old. The battery's condition and ability to hold charge would be the first thing I'd check (or have someone check). If the battery proves to be OK (and I'm a bit doubtful that will be the case from what you've said), then will be the time to look at the charging system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 Just a thought, It could be the relay that allows the alternater to charge the leasure battery when driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVAN Posted September 1, 2008 Author Share Posted September 1, 2008 I fitted a new leisure battery last year. I warm to the idea of a relay malfunction but have no idea where it might be located. Under the passenger seat as i said there is what i assume to be a zig unit and a box next to it with 240volts printed on it! Could this be a relay or am i looking in the wrong place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 IVAN: That you fitted a new leisure battery last year is no certain guarantee that it is still in good working order. New batteries have proven to be defective when fitted to a vehicle or have been known to fail after a very short period of use. You say that you started on your long trip to Dover with a fully discharged leisure battery and, when you arrived at a campsite in France, the battery's charge-state had seemingly not improved. Then you charged up the battery successfully - choosing to employ a separate charger rather than the motorhome's on-board charger - used a campsite hook-up for 3 weeks at night (presumably driving around during the day) and, at the end of 3 weeks, the battery was still holding a full charge satisfactorily. Although you don't specifically say so, I assume the 'leisure battery not being charged while driving' fault is still present and you are not just looking for an explanation for why the battery wasn't charged up during your outwards journey. McLouis is an Italian motorhome brand, so its habitation electrical system will follow Continental rather than UK practice. This means that, rather than a split-charge relay being employed to handle alternator-charging of the leisure battery, a 'coupler/separator' relay is likely to be used instead. My understanding of "zig unit" is that it's an archaic term used only in the UK for a generic caravan/motorhome 12V control-panel (rather like the word "durex" has tended to be used historically in the UK for a condom). So I'm not sure why one might expect to find a zig unit under a cab-seat. I don't know what habitation electrical system would have been installed in a 2002 McLouis, but your description suggests that it might be similar to my Hobby's Italian-made CBE system. This comprises a 230V RCD unit, a control-panel, a battery charger, and a distribution-box that contains various relays (including the coupler/separator) and carries 12V fuses for the habitation appliances and accessories (fridge, heater, water-pump, lights, electric step, etc.) The control-panel is wall-mounted, while the battery charger and distribution-box are both housed beneath the Hobby's cab passenger-seat. The battery charger is connected to the motorhome's 230V RCD unit that, in turn, is connected to the 230V mains hook-up input-socket. Battery charger, control-panel, vehicle and leisure batteries, vehicle ignition-circuit, fresh- and waste-water tank level-sensors, chassis-earth, habitation appliances and accessories are all connected to the distribution-box. Although my Hobby's CBE system comes with an Instruction Manual that contains a section on the distribution box, there is no indication of what the box's internals look like or whether internal components can be repaired/replaced. It wouldn't surprise me if, on removing the distribution box's top cover, you'd find that all the electronic components and relays are soldered on to a single PCB and, if the PCB were to develop a fault, that the complete distribution box would need renewal. So, if what's below the passenger seat of your McLouis resembles what's beneath my Hobby's seat, then best of luck if you are expecting to diagnosis your problem by eye or hoping that a bit of cable-wiggling will cure it. As I suggested earlier, the first thing to do is check the leisure battery. Is its electrolyte-level correct? Are the terminals and terminal-connections clean and tight? Then take a voltage reading at the battery terminals. Next check the charging systems. Start the vehicle's motor and confirm that the voltage reading at the leisure battery's terminals rises to around 14V. If it doesn't then the battery is not receiving charge from the vehicle's alternator. It would be sensible to do the same for the on-board battery charger. Connect motorhome to 230V hook-up, make sure RCD circuit-breakers are all set correctly, ensure battery charger is switched on (there will inevitably an On/Off switch on a stand-alone charger), confirm voltage rises to around 13.8V at leisure battery's terminals to indicate the battery is receiving charge via the 230V hook-up. If this experimentation reveals a charging fault, then further diagnosis will be needed to identify exactly where the problem lies. It might be something as simple as a disconnected earth-cable or a loose/broken/corroded connection, or it might be more complicated, but there's little point crystal-ball gazing without carrying out some basic checks first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVAN Posted September 2, 2008 Author Share Posted September 2, 2008 Derek Uzzell Thanks for taking the time to explain it. Unfortunately my Motorhome did not come with an electrical diagram. I have plenty food for thought now and will try to investigate further. I need to buy myself a volt meter or whatever it is to check the battery..........i will let you know in a few days if i find anything untowards with either the battery or the charging system.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MelvynT Posted September 2, 2008 Share Posted September 2, 2008 Ivan, you can buy a digital multimeter from maplin for less than a fiver, you don't want an all singing and dancing one, just a basic model for occasional use. This kind of money will get you Voltage and Ohms (resistance), if you want to check current you'll need a more expensive model, starting from around £15. If you're going this route, check that it's got a range of at least 10Amps DC. Usually a fridge takes 7 to 9 Amps and this is generally the biggest drain. Take time to read the instructions, although they will be converted from Chinese, time spent learning how the meter operates will pay dividends. For simple voltage readings, hold the meter black wire to earth and use the meter red wire to touch whichever van wire you're testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVAN Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Just a quick update. Thanks for the input everybody. I have now got my volt meter, arrived in the post yesterday...all singing all dancing for only £6.50 via ebay(new). I have checked both batteries today and the starter is ok but nothing happening with the leisure battery. I haven't tried it with the mains plugged in yet due to the position of the van, but i am pretty sure that it will charge due to the fact that three weeks away and it held its charge when on mains hook up. I get the feeling now that it could be a fuse but now the hard work begins..I have three fuse boxes but the Mclouis book says that there should be 2 x in line ones but is a bit vague as to their location.....Will keep you posted as and when i find anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carioca Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 hi i have a carioca which is also italian & have a similar problem/fault my battery would go flat after about 4 weeks parked at home, it wouldnt charge from flat by vehicle alone journey distance made no diference but if charged by mains hook up for a short time then driven it would fully charge. i dont know the solution as i've had it to dealers & they tell me everything is working ok so i just live with it, it is no real inconvenience as i always put van on hook up before a jouney to cool fridge anyway :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 Carioca, Your issue may well be same as Ivans, so shall explain, and , Ivan and you can do the test. If you discharge your liesure battery too much then the charge circuit fitted detects the very low battery and will not energise the charge relay. This is to prevent and excessivly large charge current flowing, blowing protection fuses etc. So it is a safety feature. Solution is exactly as you have found, connect mains hook up and charge battery enough to bring the voltage up. Unplug mains and start engine - it should now charge. Unfortunately even the onboard charger has protection and I think it is below about 6 volts ( totally flat really) it wil not start charging battery. The way round this is to use a seperate charger to bring it up. Now you should be back to normal. The real problem being not to let the liesure battery volts fall too low by excessive discharging. Why has it fallenover 3 weeks? Simple, the Electronica sytem fitted by Mclouis and related Italian built homes draws quite a large standby (quiescent) current in the order of 50 mAmps. Then there is a standby current fro other equipment like the boiler which is permanently connected and possiibly other equipment you have fitted. Take into account a battey posiibly not 100% charged when you park up, along with reduced capacity for aging etc, and your can easily discharge the liesure battery in 3 weeks. It is not a fault, it is a design flaw. However there is a very simple solution - fit a switch in Series with your battery and when you park up switch it off, alternatively disconnect it by removing the negative lead, safer than the positive. (if you disconnect the +ve, the lead can short to ground, or your spanner when removing can short to ground. If you fit a switch yourself, remove the -ve lead 1st then fit switch in either positive or negative - really makes no differencenelectrically, but I prefer +ve switched. Thn reconnect +ve 1st and then -ve. Ok so thas the Carrioca sorted. Now Ivans problem. It could be the same so you need to work out if this is what could be happening. It could well be because after you were on charge in Croatia you appeared to have no probem untill after 3 weeks. Now it could be your battery was only being charged by the onboard charger, but did you maybe use too much power out of it one night and got the probem described above. I shall leave it at that until you report back, and then can describe how to check out the charge circuit. To help you though there are 2 large fuses in area of the battery, and the Fiat factory fitted auxilliary battery connector. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Cole Posted September 7, 2008 Share Posted September 7, 2008 The best way to isolate your leisure battery when not in use is to fit a master switch on the negative lead. Durite do one, all you have to do is take off the negative lead from the battery put on the master switch onto the battery terminal and reconnect the negative lead to the switch it all clamps on no soldering or terminals to make up take about 5 min to fit. In the event of an electrical fault the battery can be switched off quickly. Available from auto electrical centres they cost under a tenner. As far as charging is concerned then as Jon said most chargers require an input voltage from the battery to charge as does the alternator so letting batteries go flat is not a good idea besides damaging the battery. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carioca Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 hi Brambles thanks for that i think i traced my battry usage to fridge being left on 12v even though ignition is turned off a small amount of power is still being used so i now turn fridge off on switch seem ok now ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Hi, Glad you have traced a current drain source, but you still have problem of Control panel and Electronics drawing some power. I would still consider fitting a master switch to the battery. It also serves another purpose. If you are on site for extended periods with hook up you can end up over charging the battery. Not a over charge as such but tries to constantly keep take it up to 14.4 as you switch things on and off. Charger gets confused. What happens is the battery can gas and so you lose water. It is a common problem in most motorhomes. It can use water quite quickly and you have to top up a few times a year. So when on hook up for 2 or more days, you can switch off the battery and leave habitation side being powerd by the Charger/supply. Makes tremendous differemce to water consumtion of the battery. Only problem is remembering to turn battery back again when unhooking. Another advantage is if someone unplugs you on a busy site you know about it immediately. Disadvantage - you might be watching your fav TV program on your 12volt TV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVAN Posted September 9, 2008 Author Share Posted September 9, 2008 Just a quick update...I found a large metal strip fuse adjacent to the leisure battery and that is ok. I have also found a glass fuse in a plastic case near the starter battery and that is ok. So if there is another fuse near the battery i have still to find it. I have hooked up to the mains and the leisure battery is being charged that way. I will wait until the weather improves and try and investigate further.In the meantime, thank you all for your help. Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Ivam - I could be wrong as wiring is often altered during teh build life of a Motorhome, but there may be two metal strip fuses next to liesure battery, One is for the feed to the Main Control/distribution/fuse box for habitation, and the other is the feed from the Vehicle battery. It is possible your glass fuse is the only onr protecting this connection/cable, but in later vehicles McLoius fitted two fuses next to the battery. One is screwed to the battery plate, and the other is tied into the wiring harness. Sound like next thing to check is power is arriving at Cotrol unit from Vehicle battery, and also the ALternator D+ output. I think you have the Nordelettronica Kit N100 - with a TE43 charger and NE101 control panel. If you do send me your email in a private message and I can email you a copy of the recomended installation circuit diagrams. It will be useful for you to have anyway as a general guide showing principle of operation and connections. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) Do you men realise how scarey threads like this are to mere women like me???? :-( Jon, how important is it to have a disconnector on your leisure battery when you are hooked up for more than a few days, as you mention above.... I would never have thought of this and what you make sound like a simple job really blows my mind. Is it ok if I DON'T do this or is the problem it would cause not doing it, a really common one. There seem to be so many do thises and thats with the batteries and pumps etc I can't work out which ones to just let go over my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 High ROON, Don't worry about it, it is not a necessity. It is a way of helping to extend the life of your leisure battery from reducing the chances of it constantly being charged and gassing using up water and needing topped up. Most people 'abuse' their batteries in much worse ways like taking every last drop of charge they can out of it before recharging. The biggest advantage of the switch is to isolate the battery when vehicle is laid up. If you do not have a problem, don't fix it. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Thanks Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 Ivan, You PMed me , I got email notification, but no message in private inbox. can you try again, or shoud I just use addy in your profile. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IVAN Posted September 10, 2008 Author Share Posted September 10, 2008 Jon I have sent it again, better luck this time, fingers crossed...Ivan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted September 10, 2008 Share Posted September 10, 2008 ROON - 2008-09-09 11:11 PM 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) Do you men realise how scarey threads like this are to mere women like me???? :-( Jon, how important is it to have a disconnector on your leisure battery when you are hooked up for more than a few days, as you mention above.... I would never have thought of this and what you make sound like a simple job really blows my mind. Is it ok if I DON'T do this or is the problem it would cause not doing it, a really common one. There seem to be so many do thises and thats with the batteries and pumps etc I can't work out which ones to just let go over my head. Easiest way to preserve the battery is to either run the engine for a few minutes each week or connect a mains lead up whilst parked at home and either leave it on charge or just charge it up whenever the battery voltmeter on the control panel (if you have one that is) dips below about 12.3 volts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROON Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Thanks Tracker. I have had pm's with Derek Uzzell re just that actually. I came to that conclusion, but wasn't sure that if I should leave the battery plugged in on charge overnight, could I actually damage it by OVERcharging it or was there an automatic cut-off when it reached full charge. Apparently, it varies van to van. Joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 Joy, There is no problem leaving your charger plugged in overnight or even for longer periods. Most chargers when battery reach full charge cut back to a trickle charge. The issue I was mentioning earlier is to do with charger on all the time and living in van, as equipment is switched on and off the charger can get confused and keeps enterring the full charge mode and battery can gas more than it needs to. This is not a problem on odd occassions, but if happening all the time you need to top up more battery more often. What I do is flick the switch to disconnect my battery when on site for a few days so battery does not gas. It extends the life a bit, thats all. However this is not practical if you ahve high current drain at times where the charger.supply would not be able to supply everything and battery is neded for the extra. Say a 12 volt TV, Sat, some lights and then you run some water and pump turns on. I have low consumption as no 12volt extras, they run of 240 volts. Stop worrying about it, just top up your battery occassionally, say every few weeks, overnight or all day. Or better still, take Motorhome out for a spin and a picnic. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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