mick noe Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 I have a 1997 fiat ducato based motorhome and it will not stay in 5th gear [jumps out unless you keep pressure on lever] is this common? I guess a new gearbox is required. any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted September 1, 2008 Share Posted September 1, 2008 there as been lots of post on fiat gear box have a look at these .best of luck .you dont nead a new gear box as you will see. http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/search/query.asp?action=search&searchforumid=3&keywords=5+th+gear&author=&days=&x=42&y=12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leisurepower Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 Hi A friend has just been quoted £300 to replace 5th gear by a transmition company aprox: 3hrs work. It seems this is a common problem but does not require a replacement box. Good Luck :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted September 9, 2008 Share Posted September 9, 2008 The part is about £150 and the job takes half an hour. The cover on the end of the gearbox is easily removable and just needs sealing properly when replaced. If the cover is excessively corroded it is worth replacing it. We also recommend replacing the gearbox oil at the same time if it is even slightly 'milky'. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Hi, I too have the no-fifth problem. Mine started with jumping out of fifth gear (thought it was me at first) but this deteriorated within just a few miles of very modest cross country driving to no 5th gear at all. If I tried to change up the stick went 'in' as usual but no drive - just a bag of nails, needless to say I didn't do that again and drove it steadily home in 4th. This is a 1999/2000 Ducato chassis with a 2.8 idTD engine. Now faced with a garage bill of more than a grand I'm much tempted by the DIY "takes half an hour" route! My question is where is the border line between a 'successful half hour'job' and a 'no-hope replace the gearbox'? I appreciate there are lots of ifs, buts, and maybes in all that but there may be some sort of guide as to which symptoms might be curable cheaply and which definitely indicate a new or rebuilt box? Secondarily if I have to replace it, does the later box with the in-board fifth (easily??) fit earlier vehicles that came with the out-board fifth gear cluster?? Looking forward to pearls of wisdom ... thanks, Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 I believe thats 1/2hour for a garage, £1000 would I believe be for a rebuld of gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 This job should not cost more than about £400 unless the gearbox is damaged internally. The best way is to have 2 or 3 quotations. If we knew what part of the country you are in somebody may well be able to suggest a good engineer close to you. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Yes thanks guys I've got that picture already but what symptoms would indicate likely success of the quick, simple and cheap route as opposed to the much dearer full strip-down and rebuild route? I'm in the SW Midlands by the way, the convenient zone is bounded by Worcester, Redditch, Warwick, Cheltenham. Quotes/estimates are ofen accompanied by statements like "Theoretically you could renew 5th gear from the aperture on the side of the gearbox. However, we will not. If there is anymore damage to components in the gearbox, or any debris it will do much more damage when used again" ... "To remove and inspect the gearbox will be approx £260 + VAT. To re-fit the gearbox will be approx £130+ VAT. You then have the cost of any repairs (Parts and labour) in-between. It may well be cheaper to get a 2nd hand or exchange gearbox unit?". This example is from a commercial garage I've used before that is known to have reasonable rates. (Unlike my nearest Fiat Professional Garage that takes motorhomes that charges around £90/hr for these "larger" vehicles). I understand their cautious position of course - BUT how do I assess if that is over-cautious or not?? I could have a go at the DIY job myself or get other local mechanics to do so for me but wouldn't trust them (or me) to carry out a full strip and rebuild! The last time I stripped a gearbox was in the mid 1960s and that was a BSA motorbike at the roadside!! Neill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2 Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Hi so not far from Evesham then. I work in a fleet workshop we would always go for the repair if a good change of success. The history of the job seems lots of vehicles have been repaired and the repair has been successfull the fact that it has a fifth gear housing more chance any debri will stay in the housing so can be cleaned out and not left to go round rest of box then you have already driven home and rest of box is working ok. If it was my van i would try the repair. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 One of my customers is a specialised gearbox building company, that's all they do all day. I'll ask them about it if you wish and let you know what they reckon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Neil: Mick Noe's Ducato evidently still has an operative 5th-gear (even though he has to apply pressure to the gear-lever to keep 5th-gear engaged), which suggests that his problem should be fixable relatively cheaply by replacing the necessary parts in the manner Nick Fisher (euroserv) describes, without needing to remove the gearbox. On the face of it, your motorhome's fault (5th-gear can't be engaged - nasty noises) sounds more serious, but I can't see how anyone will be able to assess the extent of the problem and the best way forward without taking the external cover off and carrying out an inspection. Nick works with Fiat/Iveco fleet vehicles and has access to professional workshop capabilities, and a half-hour job performed by a trained technician with the necessary equipment and expertise may well be beyond the realistic capability of an enthusiastic DIY mechanic. As Paul2 says, lots of Fiats with the 5th-gear fault have been successfully repaired with the gearbox left in situ. Conversely, there have been reports of the fault recurring not long after the initial repair was carried out. Suggest you take up Peter's fact-finding offer and take it from there. His gearbox-specialist contact (or Nick) may also be able to advise on the practicability of fitting the later 'bomb proof' gearbox. My understanding, based on an earlier forum thread, is that the gear-lever shift-pattern differs (reverse on opposite sides), which may be a bad omen. Whatever the case, it's likely to prove a costly exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 A recent customer of mine had fifth gear failure and was mightily relieved to hear it could be simply repaired despite two Fiat commercial agents insisting the 'box would have to come outr and be stripped at a cost of over £1000. Instead he found Geartech who are based in Hartlebury in Worestershire who fixed the fault in a couple of hours at a cost of £300. Geartech details are: Geartech (midlands)ltd Unit 240 Ikon Estate Droitwich road Hartlebury Worcs DY10 4EU Tel: 01299 251261 e-mail geartech@tiscali.co.uk I have no connection with Geartech whatsoever, they were recomended by my customer. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Thanks guys, I'm getting a much better picture of the risks involved. Plainly my 'bag of nails' lies on the risk side but still as a fair chance of success in the right hands. Further info and opinions and garage/engineer recommendations are still all very welcome but given the potential savings I'm certainly minded to find someone to give the repair route a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 At what point in it's production life did the 5th gear problem get fixed on the Ducato / Boxer if ever? My Peugeot Boxer is a 2006: is it likely there will be a problem with it in the future? Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Your gearbox should not have the fifth gear problem. It was fixed when they changed the (gearstick) position of reverse to left and up with the lift up collar on the stick. Only the earlier version where reverse is right and down suffered from the fifth gear problems. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gboden65 Posted September 28, 2008 Share Posted September 28, 2008 Thanks for that Dave, you have put my mind at rest on the gearbox front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Another related question: Given that there's some suggestion that oil starvation plays a part here (possibly compounded by the lack of an easy top up route and also Fiat's incorrectly stated oil capacity) is there a case for using an oil additive in these gearboxes ... like the old Molyslip?? Neill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul2 Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 On my last two vans (1996 & 2000) i added forte transmission additive (free samples) i never had any problems but that may have been just luck or mileage or may have been done i had them. Now on a 2005 and no free samples! Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 neillking - 2008-09-26 2:03 PM Hi just had mine done on my 2.8JTD about 2 months ago by TB Turbo Lancaster cost £500 with the Vat but they repaced the gear and the gear selector fork as they say it can bend a little they also cleaned all the G/box new oil and they did not hang around as i was there while it was being done so it is more than taking off the cover and poping on the gear they also recomended to drive in 4th gear for at least 8 -10 miles before engaging 5th when engine is cold this is to let the oil reach the proper heat as the G/box is splash fed regards Pedro --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, I too have the no-fifth problem. Mine started with jumping out of fifth gear (thought it was me at first) but this deteriorated within just a few miles of very modest cross country driving to no 5th gear at all. If I tried to change up the stick went 'in' as usual but no drive - just a bag of nails, needless to say I didn't do that again and drove it steadily home in 4th. This is a 1999/2000 Ducato chassis with a 2.8 idTD engine. Now faced with a garage bill of more than a grand I'm much tempted by the DIY "takes half an hour" route! My question is where is the border line between a 'successful half hour'job' and a 'no-hope replace the gearbox'? I appreciate there are lots of ifs, buts, and maybes in all that but there may be some sort of guide as to which symptoms might be curable cheaply and which definitely indicate a new or rebuilt box? Secondarily if I have to replace it, does the later box with the in-board fifth (easily??) fit earlier vehicles that came with the out-board fifth gear cluster?? Looking forward to pearls of wisdom ... thanks, Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted September 30, 2008 Share Posted September 30, 2008 Had a word with my contact the gearbox builder and he was well aware of this problem as it is very common. He tells me that some of the blame for this is due to water entering the gearbox through the gearchange mechanism and is caused by the fact that water can run off the windscreen scuttle and washes over the gearbox. He advised me to make up a cover for the entry point for the gearchange and check the gearbox oil as it can be turned to Mayonaise due to water ingress. Not the ideal lubricant for the gearbox. He also advised me to fill the box with the same oil as is used in the engine, as anything of a higher viscosity is too thick. He said a D.I.Y job is feasible for a fairly competent amateur mechanic and should cost around £350. He will only work on complete boxes off the vehicle and this would involve complete stripdown. He does not work on complete vehicles, Probably doesn't want to go diving under them, (and I don't blame him when he can work at a bench in the warm). For your information the name of the company is: The Gearbox Centre which is in Northampton Tel:- 01604 755 230 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Had experience of the fifth gear problem a couple of years back though on a friends van while we were both in France. On return to UK, after an unsuccessful and expensive repair in France, I arranged to get the repair done at my local gearbox repairer (due to me being retired and our friends still working) so I had the direct dealing with the repairer and my friend paid the bill, nice spending other peoples money, LoL! The van was driven from mid France to Alsace and on to Switzerland and then back to the UK using only up to fourth gear. It had only done 22000 miles in it's lifetime at this point. The upshot is the gearbox was easily done in situe, though not a DIY job unless you have certain specialist tools (not to take out the fifth gear set and replace but to ensure the correct tightening, forget the term now, backlash(??)). According to the gearbox man this is a not uncommon problem and is caused solely by poor quality componants (poor case hardening and after my own examination I would totally agree, I do have an engineering background) not helped by a splash oiling system, hence the advice not to use fifth until at least 5Km have been passed to ensure the componants are well lubed. Querying the rest of the gearbox and its condition considering its use with the damage, appart from putting in fresh oil (which should ONLY be fully synthetic of the recommended viscosity) there should be no problem and 10000miles later this seems the case. Any swarf that entered the box came out attached to the drain plug magnet. Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Some feedback: I opted for the repair route but decided it might not be a suitable DIY job for me so asked some specialists about the job. The Geartech link given by Dave Newell turned out to be the most promising with their hands-on director/owner Tony Perkin being helpful, knowledgable, and experienced - and a Hymer owner to boot. They ordered in the parts based on my vehicle details and did the work yesterday while I waited (about 2 hours). The bill was £372 inclusive. I hope the replacemnt gear cluster will last(!) but will try to remember to feedback further info as time goes on. Geartech is a old-fashioned small scale business with traditional values and I can definitely recommend them. If you choose to wait as I did you might also be able to talk to Tony about his Rudge motorbike and his charity runs on it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Wow, thats good news, It's great to to see this forum working. and folks really benefitting from our shared Interest/Pastime/Obsession. good on yer Dave. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick noe Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 I have now repaired my jumping out 5th gear £300 parts {5th gear and hub[syncro]} did it myself no need to remove gearbox just remove end cover of box and replace gear less than one hours work. It took longer to refill with oil had to remove reversing light switch and slowly drip in oil. Thanks to all for hints and tips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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