Guest petej Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 I have refillable gas bottles fitted to my Nuevo and we're off to Apline regions for 3 weeks in February. I think most of you are aware of the possible problems of using refillables abroad in sub zero/Alpine temperatures because of the unfavourable butane/propane mix that euro lpg stations supply. The blown air outlet pipe from the Truma runs under the settee and past the gas locker (steel lined) and I'm looking into the possibility of fitting a narrow branch from the pipe, drilling a hole through the sidewall and feeding a small amout of warm air to the locker. Can anyone see any safety problems with this and do you think it would work? If not, any other ideas? pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David Powell Posted December 3, 2005 Share Posted December 3, 2005 Hi Pete, sounds a good idea, on the safety side of it I think you will have to ensure that no gas can get into the hot air pipe when fan is swiched off. Just incase any gas escapes from the bottles etc. or next time you switch on the fan; gas + spark = bang. I am too old now for this real cold winter stuff. Have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek Uzzell Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Obviously this idea will work, but it appears to go directly against the philosophy that a gas-locker should be totally sealed from a leisure-vehicle's interior. You might consider branching off from the warm-air ducting, then connecting the branch to a fair-sized diameter copper tube that runs right through the locker. The tube would be sealed where it passes through the locker walls and its outlet would be reconnected to the 'van's air ducting or to its own small outlet. Heating the gas-locker would then be via convection from the hot tube rather than by blown hot air. If you wanted to be posher you could add some radiator finning to the tube. Frankly, if you filled your bottles in the Alpine area where you are staying, I wouldn't think you should have freezing problems as the autogas marketed there is likely to be heavily biased towards propane. However I accept that, even if it's 100% propane, there's still a small possibility you might have regulator freezing problems, so your locker heating plan definitely has merit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian Ramsden Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 How about putting as many hot water bottles in the locker as you can reasonably manage? If the locker is reasonably well insulated you would no require all that much extra heat to avoid problems, so you would not have to renew them too often. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek Uzzell Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 petej: You may well be aware of this but, just in case not, there are various Truma fittings that permit smaller diameter air-ducts to be branched from the normal 65mm ducting. Smaller bore flexible trunking is also available in 22mm or 49mm diameters, together with a 35mm perforated 'Isotherm' variant. However, as these duct sizes are not often used you might find difficulty getting hold of short lengths and Truma's retail outlet will usually only sell full (eg. 20m) rolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petej Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Thanks for your replies. I like the idea of a finned pipe running through the locker as it would still be 'sealed' from the habitation area, but i wonder how easy it would be to get this sort of arrangement specially made to fit the locker? Hot water bottles - I don't think they would stay hot for very long to be useful in an unheated area. Thanks for your info on truma ducting Derek, i have had a look at their products and was interested in the cord operated shut off gate that can be fitted inline into the standard ducting, I was toying with fitting this into the locker end of the branch pipe, this would enable it to be shut while the blown air is turned off, preventing a potential gas leak running back down the pipe. It would then be possible to fit one of the reducers you mention before tapping into the locker. I'm still a bit wary about whether this would 100% satisfactory/safe or not though. As regards a favourable mix in alpine regions, its my experience that this is'nt the case i'm afraid and I had this butane 'problem' after several 'refills' in Bavaria last year with the capacity gradually reducing as more butane entered the bottle. I also know of anothe person longterming in Switzerland with refillables who had this problem as well. My van is going to willersey tommorrow for some warranty work, i'll ask them for their opinion and see what they can come up with. pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PeteC Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 Hi Petej We havent used anything but PROPANE for the last 40 years Dont get any problems with it freezing even at Alpine temperatures In fact if you look around those vans that are parked there for the ski season - you will see that they invariably have 75Kg Propane cylinders OUTSIDE and again no problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Clive Posted December 4, 2005 Share Posted December 4, 2005 If you are only going for 3 or perhaps 4 weeks then you should fill up in the UK with PROPANE and this should last you throughout. If you and gas greedy and need to fill up with a mix then the PROPANE content will still work. However when you get back home or to warmer climbs use up all the gas in the tank and you will have used up all the BUTANE that may have been mixed with the foreigh LPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek Uzzell Posted December 5, 2005 Share Posted December 5, 2005 Petej: I thought there was something familiar about this subject and checking the Archive proved that we've been down this road before (11/02/2005). Did you ever get any feedback from Gaslow, please? (I can't find anything on the forum subsequently about their heating ideas.) The trouble with breaching the gas-locker's sealing by leading a blown-air duct directly into it is two-fold. It allows the opportunity for leaking gas (or fire) to enter the vehicle's interior from the gas-locker more easily and it similarly allows leaking gas (or fire) to enter the locker from the vehicle's interior. These are potential risks of course but, even if the risks are tiny, they are nonetheless real. This is simply proven as, if there were no blown-air outlet in the locker, the risks I've just mentioned disappear. It's really up to you to decide what level of risk you are prepared to take. I shall be very interested to learn what Auto-Sleepers advise. (Incidentally, you are being optimistic if you plan to rely on Truma's duct shut-off device to be gas-tight. It's intended to allow blown air to be restricted or diverted to particular areas of a vehicle, but doesn't need to be leak-proof to perform this role and consequently isn't.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petej Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Derek, Gaslow were trying to source the manufacturer of a cheap, disposable heated jacket that worked on a chemical reaction process similar to those emergency light sticks(no power consumption problems)but I checked with them last week and they have drawn a blank on this and don't seem to have any further solutions to the potential problem. I dropped the van off at willersey yesterday and explained my predicament and possible solutions which was received with sharpe intakes of breath, but they will nonetheless look at it and see if they can come up with something. I am gradually resigning myself to probably keeping one bottle full of uk propane and using that as a fall back. As I only have 6kg bottles (why do A/Sleepers only do pathetically small gas lockers?)it will mean filling up approx every 2 days but i could probably live with that, we'll see. pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Derek Uzzell Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 I never rated the chemical disposable-overcoat idea as I didn't think there would be a market for such a specialised product (except you of course!). It might be worth you exploring what's available in the motorcycle world relating to electrically heated clothing. I believe you can get pads to heat various limbs and one of these should be more than adequate to take the chill off a small gas bottle. You'd need to check the power consumption but, as motorbikes have small batteries, it shouldn't be huge. Your plan for feeding some hot air into the locker, either directly or (as I suggested) using a 'radiator', will be the simplest way forward, and, if you intend to employ a 100% propane back-up bottle you'll avoid a potential vicious circle. Personally I wouldn't hesitate to DIY this type of installation, but Auto-Sleepers may be less keen. Historically, Auto-Sleepers have tended to tailor their gas-lockers around two Calor 6kg bottles, but so have many other UK motorhome converters. This practice used to be a bugbear for UK motorcaravanners travelling abroad, but the problem has been minimised by the advent of small user-refillable gas bottles. I'm sure you'll accept that what you are doing with a Nuevo goes well beyond what A-S could have anticipated for this model. (Incidentally, how do you manage to keep your 'van's waste-water system operable in conditions of such extreme cold and, apparently, off a 230v hook-up?) Anyway, it's not just A-S and UK manufacturers that go for small lockers - my Hobby is limited to 2 x 6kg Calor bottles and I'm told that the latest Trigano Tribute can accommodate just a single 6kg container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David powell Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Hello again Pete, I was just out checking over the 'van and it dawned on me that there is more than one source of warmth in a M/Home. I am lucky in as much that on my Holdsworth Ranger the gas locker is between the fridge and the locker containing the hot water heater, so when I am on electric hook-up the gas locker gets some warmth through the bulk heads. I have not checked to see if Richard Holdsworth still does that on his new 'vans the Auto Cruise CH, I couldn't afford one any way. As you are obviously handy on D.I.Y. parhaps a hot water radiator off your hot water system might be a safe consideration when and if you are on electric hook-up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petej Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 Yes, i'm aware that the Nuevo is designed for use in a 'temperate' climate, but I didn't have much of a choice when I was forced to p'ex vans, my previous one had serious water ingress probs, so I was limited to what models my (ex)dealer could supply but thats another story as they say. Last year we overcame the waste water problem by lagging the exterior pipe runs and letting the waste run through the system to a good 'ole bucket. This worked ok but in the 'really' cold ( -10c and below) weather the pipe from the tank to the silly little beer barrel type drain tap kept freezing, this year we are going to have a simple 5 gallon waste container under the sink and divert the waste pipe into that in really cold conditions, means not using the toilet room basin but thats no big deal. As to me being handy at DIY David, no, not particularly, If I come across a potential problem, I ask questions on forums, hopefully get a good solution, then pay someone to do it if it's too difficult or complicated for me to do(!) Thank you all and i'll give you some feed back if anyones interested when the van returns from autosleepers and what i've decided. pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Colin T Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Now I know why I could not post answer (h.ttp) Pete, How about something like a crankcase heater off a refrigeration compressor, just wrap arround a compressor to keep the oil thin. Could this work for you. they are mains only but low wattage fed through a thermostat so would not use much through an inverter. There are other sorts of defrost heaters that come in a foil wrap so may spread the heat more. Try the link below or search for crankcase/ defrost heaters (refrigeration) Good luck Colin T www.hawco-refrigeration.co.uk/pdf/p107.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest petej Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Thanks colin but i didn't want to have to rely on 12v power (via invertor), the batteries will have enough to cope with in such a cold environment. Someone else suggested heat trace cable but afaik thats mains powered as well, I just wanted a simple gas powered solution linked in with the heating but it seems its not going to be as straightforward as I thought. Thanks for taking the time to reply though. pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike C Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Have been following this thread with interest and it occurred to me that heating the Gas Locker would in some cases have another beneficial effect in some Motor Caravans. In my Swift Sundance on a recent very cold night (-6 C) we woke in the morning to find that the under settee (single bed) locker floor was soaked. The problem was traced to condensation on the walls of the metal gas locker. We had had heating on all night to keep the interior warm. In this case it would not be easy to pipe hot air to the locker as all the outlets are on the other side of the interior and would require a pipe to be run externally to the locker with all the implications of heat loss on a system that just about copes with the existing three outlets. Thought about one of those small 12v thermostatically controlled heater fans but quickly discounted this on the grounds of safety. Would it be possible to use a system like the Webasto diesel powered heaters for car radiators with an extension running through the gas locker providing warm air or heated water. In the case of the Sundance the pipe could be run in/out of the locker using an existing drop vent or an additional vent in the gas locker floor. The problem I see with this is the extra drain on the 12v system to power the fan/pump and the cost for a system that would be used very infrequently. Just another idea to consider. Regards, Mike C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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