Tony Norton Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Hello all, I think it's time the cambelt on our Autotrail Ducato 2.8 JTD (Engine series 814043S) was changed. We've only just over 20K on the clock but it is now 6 years old and Fiat's recommendation is 72,000 or 5 years. Being mechanically 'savvy', having built engines and gearboxes in the past, I would like to do the job myself, and was treated to a printout of the 'how to' data, complete with drawings, by a friendly local garage. However, apart from the special tools (flywheel and tensioner locking tools) which I think are things that can be made without too much difficulty, among the things that put me off slightly are not the technicals of belt and tensioner replacement etc, but the requirements to "....raise and support front of vehicle....", "....remove RH front wheel....", "....support engine....". All things that need more robust lifting gear than I have available. The Fiat supplied bottle jack may be OK in an emergency for changing a wheel, but I wouldn't want to rely on it if I was under the vehicle, and my trolley jack isn't man enough to support a corner of a 4 tonne motorhome. Questions are, has anyone alse done this job themselves? Is it really necessary to have the thing off the ground and attack it from underneath or can the job be done entirely from on top? I've been quoted £235 for the complete job, but can get a "proper" cambelt kit for £135. Should I really spend the extra ton on having someone else do the job? The good lady thinks I should, "O ye of little faith". I have been told that there are people who will do it for £160 but, as the time allowance for the job is 1.85 hrs, and I can't imagine any garage that works for about £13 an hour, I hate to imagine the quality of the parts used. Cheers Tony N
rmab Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Hi It would be too big a job for me but the Carlisle Fiat Dealer County Motors will do mine for £151.08. Richard That includes parts labour and VAT
davenewellhome Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Pay a professional to do it. Then, if it subsequently goes wrong you have some comeback on them. If you DIY and it goes pear shaped who you gonna call? Ghostbusters won't be any use! :D (lol) ;-) D.
colin Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Sounds like gf's astra, wheel and inner wheel arch covers and engine mount have to be removed, last time it needed doing she took it in to garage as she 'coundn't stand the swearing', funny thing is what have I been working on this week at work? a 24litre V12 and a 7litre radial.
davenewellhome Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 colin - 2008-10-22 8:19 PM Sounds like gf's astra, wheel and inner wheel arch covers and engine mount have to be removed, last time it needed doing she took it in to garage as she 'coundn't stand the swearing', funny thing is what have I been working on this week at work? a 24litre V12 and a 7litre radial. And nary a belt in sight I'll warrant! :D D.
colin Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 davenewell@home - 2008-10-22 8:59 PM colin - 2008-10-22 8:19 PM Sounds like gf's astra, wheel and inner wheel arch covers and engine mount have to be removed, last time it needed doing she took it in to garage as she 'coundn't stand the swearing', funny thing is what have I been working on this week at work? a 24litre V12 and a 7litre radial. And nary a belt in sight I'll warrant! :D D. Too right, proper gear driven cams, even the OHC V12
davenewellhome Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 Ooh you know how to make a petrol head salivate :D . D.
paul2 Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 I would be doing it my self i've done Fiat 2.8 but not the jtd (and a few Iveco Dailys at work) I used silver steel for timing pins and cut a slot in a nut for the tensioner locking tool . Paul Yes you do need to get under the vehicle a good jack and axle stands are required Paul
Guest peter Posted October 22, 2008 Posted October 22, 2008 I agree with Paul. Iv'e done my own recently and it's not that hard. But you do need to get under the van. Use a drill to lock diesel pump and crank. Change alternator belt as well. It's a pig of a job but as your'e under the van anyway......... Mine is a I.D.T.D 2.8, so don't know if J.T.D is the same. £135 for belt kit seems a bit steep, I paid about £70 odd and it includes the idler bearings.
George Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Sorry if this is a stupid question,but if a cambelt can last for 72,000 miles, why is it recommended to replace it after 5 years regardless of the mileage? Does the belt deteriorate with age?
davenewellhome Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 George - 2008-10-23 7:24 PM Sorry if this is a stupid question,but if a cambelt can last for 72,000 miles, why is it recommended to replace it after 5 years regardless of the mileage? Does the belt deteriorate with age? In a word, yes! All rubber based products deteriorate with age and bearing in mind the damage caused to an engine when the belt gives way its really not worth taking a risk for a couple of hundred quid, whether you do it yourself or pay a garage to do it is entirely up to you. D.
George Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 Thanks for the reply Dave, I'll see how much the financial manager has in her purse, or get the dog a paper round.
Guest peter Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 George - 2008-10-23 7:24 PM Sorry if this is a stupid question,but if a cambelt can last for 72,000 miles, why is it recommended to replace it after 5 years regardless of the mileage? Does the belt deteriorate with age?Not neccesarily. The one on my Toyota Supra is 21 Years old and is still o/k. I can chance it as it is a non interference head and will not wreck the valves if it breaks. But just illustrates how long they can last. When was the last time any of you had a fan belt break at under 100k miles?.
davenewellhome Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 We've had a cam belt snap on a Fiat Bravo at 84,000 and that is an interference head. It cost me £300 odd to fix it and that was doing the work myself. D.
colin Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 peter - 2008-10-23 9:36 PM George - 2008-10-23 7:24 PM Sorry if this is a stupid question,but if a cambelt can last for 72,000 miles, why is it recommended to replace it after 5 years regardless of the mileage? Does the belt deteriorate with age?Not neccesarily. The one on my Toyota Supra is 21 Years old and is still o/k. I can chance it as it is a non interference head and will not wreck the valves if it breaks. But just illustrates how long they can last. When was the last time any of you had a fan belt break at under 100k miles?. I also have a non interferance engine that has a 28yo belt on it, but on any other engine they get changed no later than book figure. The older one doesn't stray too far from home. On most engines the fan belt is way over spec'ed, going back over some engine work on a Dino with work colugue today, the fan belt is no bigger than half thickness compared to 'normal' road car.
panagah Posted October 23, 2008 Posted October 23, 2008 I had mine done on my drive. I was going ot attempt it myself but when I looked in to it, it wasn't to much dearer to have some one come and do it. (mobile so I could ensure it was done proper) One other thing to consider is changing the water pump at the same time. I done mine to ensure that I dont have to pull it all to bits again and replace the water pump 3 months after doing the cambelt.
Tony Norton Posted October 24, 2008 Author Posted October 24, 2008 Think I've got to the bottom of the costing of this exercise. The standard Fiat charge for the complete set, belt, tensioner, idler etc, is £281. The place that does our MOT quoted £270, with Fiat parts, £240 with after-market parts. Anyone who quotes round about £150 is only changing the belt with a Fiat one (I know, probably an after-market in a Fiat box), which is probably OK as, to quote a south coast company well known in Motorhome circles, "....we never change the tensioners as they are steel and are good for at least the recommended mileage....". As I don't have the necessary lifting gear I've decided to have mine done professionally, but to only change the belt. Quite enough I think at just over 20K miles. Thanks for all your helpful comments. Just one question - what uses and 8 litre radial engine? Cheers Tony N
locovan Posted October 24, 2008 Posted October 24, 2008 We have had a belt go, the tensioner sheared off and snapped the Cambelt of our Autotrail. I cant believe how such a quiet noise (it was just a dull thud and I thought we had a puncture) could hide so much damage. I could lip read my husbands disgust as he lifted the bonnet. The valves were bent, and head damaged. We called the AA who towed us to the garage. The engine was ruined and we had to have a recon head. The bill was £1300.00. :$
Tony Norton Posted October 24, 2008 Author Posted October 24, 2008 locovan - 2008-10-24 8:56 AM We have had a belt go, the tensioner sheared off and snapped the Cambelt of our Autotrail. I cant believe how such a quiet noise (it was just a dull thud and I thought we had a puncture) could hide so much damage. I could lip read my husbands disgust as he lifted the bonnet. The valves were bent, and head damaged. We called the AA who towed us to the garage. The engine was ruined and we had to have a recon head. The bill was £1300.00. :$ What year was your Autotrail Mave, and how many miles on the clock? I had a similar experience on the M3 with a Vauxhall Senator 24V when the primary timing chain snapped, but it did have something like 120K on the clock! Wrecked 18 of the 24 valves and resulted in a bill slightly more than £1600. Tony N
locovan Posted October 24, 2008 Posted October 24, 2008 Hi Tony although there was 44,000 on the clock of our Cherekee P reg the Cambelt had been replaced the year before in 2005. Expensive business this hobby of ours!!!!
Guest peter Posted October 24, 2008 Posted October 24, 2008 Tony Norton - 2008-10-24 8:26 AM Think I've got to the bottom of the costing of this exercise. The standard Fiat charge for the complete set, belt, tensioner, idler etc, is £281. The place that does our MOT quoted £270, with Fiat parts, £240 with after-market parts. Anyone who quotes round about £150 is only changing the belt with a Fiat one (I know, probably an after-market in a Fiat box), which is probably OK as, to quote a south coast company well known in Motorhome circles, "....we never change the tensioners as they are steel and are good for at least the recommended mileage....". As I don't have the necessary lifting gear I've decided to have mine done professionally, but to only change the belt. Quite enough I think at just over 20K miles. Thanks for all your helpful comments. Just one question - what uses and 8 litre radial engine? Cheers Tony N That sounds like false economy to me. A complete set only costs about 70 odd quid as I've previosly stated.
colin Posted October 24, 2008 Posted October 24, 2008 Tony Norton - 2008-10-24 8:26 AM Thanks for all your helpful comments. Just one question - what uses and 8 litre radial engine? Cheers Tony N http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warner_Scarab I agree with peter, I once changed belt and bearings on Astra, couple of weeks later waterpump failed, apparently a common thing on Astra after belt changes, our works volvo had bearings fail soon after a belt change, it was explained to me that the bearings tend to 'run in' to a particliar belt and when belt changed, bearings (and in Astra waterpump) may run slightly differently and often fail shortly after.
Brambles Posted October 24, 2008 Posted October 24, 2008 Tony Norton - 2008-10-24 8:26 AM Just one question - what uses and 8 litre radial engine? A motor cycle maybe?
Tony Norton Posted October 25, 2008 Author Posted October 25, 2008 locovan - 2008-10-24 10:34 AM Hi Tony although there was 44,000 on the clock of our Cherekee P reg the Cambelt had been replaced the year before in 2005. Expensive business this hobby of ours!!!! Sounds like you got one of Peter's £70 kits Mave. :-S Tony N
George Collings Posted October 26, 2008 Posted October 26, 2008 An 8 litre radial just could be an Armstrong Siddley Cheetah. A pair powered aircraft like the Avro Anson from the 1930s but they were still flying as navigation trainers in the 1950s when I was a plane spotting mad lad. This anaorak is just the job now the evenings are cooling down.
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