Contract problem

[ANGRY]

We are experienced but out of date rising roof campers. We recently took delivery of a brand new VW T5 which was to be our dream, dual use retirement machine. It would have suited us well into our dotage. We’d previously studied form & had decided on our ideal base van & conversion specs.

Last May/June we started final research for viewing demo. campers. We always used our ideal VW factory order ‘fully loaded’ T5 spec. as a pricing benchmark. This ensured we always made accurate assessments re: any special offers, discounts etc. This also made it easy to know the true conversion part of any final ‘on-the-road’ offer.

On 1st July we agreed relevant details almost to our ‘ideal’ on a stock T5 with a leading dealer - the conversion was perfect for us. We signed an order & paid deposits confirming those agreed details. Soon after we were given an earlier delivery date than ordered which was great.

However, I discovered by chance an incorrect T5 spec. point & things thereafter went regularly wrong although we never fell out!

We finally took delivery in early October, having previously corrected past problems by e-mail. Everything that day seemed OK so we finalized payment & drove 200+ miles home. The following day, reading the VW handbook, we found that another ordered factory fit, less obvious item was missing. VW confirmed this can’t be retro fitted within warranty, meaning that only a third new T5 base is the answer.

We’ve since made all proper approaches to the dealer to try to get either a correct replacement camper or a full refund at no further cost to us but to date there’s been refusal to do either without first signing new orders, trade-ins etc. The dealer now won’t accept any responsibility.

We’ve notified trading standards, various magazines & also BBC’s Watchdog but they’re all very busy. Similarly, getting started with a possible ‘no win - no fee’ breach of contract county court action is taking its time.

Meanwhile our shiny, brand new £39.5K camper just sits idly in our garage gathering dust!

 

Any better ideas for a quick resolution out there? Is this all down to the credit crunch?

 

Are there any other forums I could also connect to in the hope my dealer reads & springs into action before we get into county court & he probably suffers serious future sale losses of an otherwise excellent product?

[hallii]

I do not have a solution to your problem, you seem to be heading in the right direction. It could be that legal action using a solicitor who is used to this type of work could be the way forward, your C.A.B. will know someone.

 

I am, however, as a VW owner, intrigued as to what is missing?

If you don't want to disclose any further information I understand, of course.

 

Geoff

 

 

[rupert123]

More and more of these strange posts are appearing on forums. What does the person writing the post want, what is he trying to say. He does not say what this item is and why it is preventing him using the van, he does not name the dealer. Surely if you order and pay for extra's you check they are their when you take delivery. Is this another 'windup'.

[Guest Tracker]

That's a bit unkind Henry - lets give the poor chap or chapess the benefit of the doubt to start with, although somehow the email address on their profile seems to ring a bell as I seem to recall having seen it before?

 

I do agree that a few more specifics and naming and shaming would be more enlightening and more conducive to trying to help.

 

By the way if indeed you are new welcome to the forum Mr and/or Ms Angry.

[Guest JudgeMental]

There is only one iconic VW camper IMO and that is a factory built Westphalia. They cost a bit more but are worth it.... *-)

 

Agree with Rupert re the tone of this post.... With an Avatar like that they are using this site to vent, and not interested in advice or sharing experience's. As they essentially withhold any relevant detail.

 

there was a post on another Forum with a chap over the moon with a new camper he had just purchased...then a photo and I noticed it was last years model *-) What can you say.....except, visit sites like this and ask around first.

 

Buyer beware is the name of the game 8-)

[Brian Kirby]

ANGRY - 2008-12-03 3:22 PM We are experienced but out of date rising roof campers. We recently took delivery of a brand new VW T5 which was to be our dream, dual use retirement machine. It would have suited us well into our dotage. We’d previously studied form & had decided on our ideal base van & conversion specs. Last May/June we started final research for viewing demo. campers. We always used our ideal VW factory order ‘fully loaded’ T5 spec. as a pricing benchmark. This ensured we always made accurate assessments re: any special offers, discounts etc. This also made it easy to know the true conversion part of any final ‘on-the-road’ offer. On 1st July we agreed relevant details almost to our ‘ideal’ on a stock T5 with a leading dealer - the conversion was perfect for us. We signed an order & paid deposits confirming those agreed details. Soon after we were given an earlier delivery date than ordered which was great. However, I discovered by chance an incorrect T5 spec. point & things thereafter went regularly wrong although we never fell out! We finally took delivery in early October, having previously corrected past problems by e-mail. Everything that day seemed OK so we finalized payment & drove 200+ miles home. The following day, reading the VW handbook, we found that another ordered factory fit, less obvious item was missing. VW confirmed this can’t be retro fitted within warranty, meaning that only a third new T5 base is the answer. We’ve since made all proper approaches to the dealer to try to get either a correct replacement camper or a full refund at no further cost to us but to date there’s been refusal to do either without first signing new orders, trade-ins etc. The dealer now won’t accept any responsibility. We’ve notified trading standards, various magazines & also BBC’s Watchdog but they’re all very busy. Similarly, getting started with a possible ‘no win - no fee’ breach of contract county court action is taking its time. Meanwhile our shiny, brand new £39.5K camper just sits idly in our garage gathering dust! Any better ideas for a quick resolution out there? Is this all down to the credit crunch? Are there any other forums I could also connect to in the hope my dealer reads & springs into action before we get into county court & he probably suffers serious future sale losses of an otherwise excellent product?

Did you confirm all the extras/options items you wanted on the vehicle, in writing, on the actual order - including the item you have now found to be missing?  In other words, are they part of your contract with the supplier?

What do you mean, when you say the missing item cannot be replaced "within warranty"?  The warranty, if you mean the VW warranty, seems irrelevant to me, unless you mean that VW say it will invalidate the warranty, even if added by a VW franchised workshop.  Can you please clarify?

[BGD]

Hi Jenni, and welcome.

 

If you can tell us exactly what was not to the written vehicle spec, we may be able to offer some constructive specific advice.

 

 

In very general terms......

 

If it was a "fundamental" breach of the agreed (hopefully written and signed off by both parties) contract spec, there may well be legal recourse to what's called "repudiate" the entire contract for non-performance by the seller.

 

If, in legal terms however it's not a fundamental breach, then the contract cannot be repudiated by the purchaser; instead it's legally a question of seeling from the supplier (and if unsuccessful, then seeking form the County Court subsequently....assuming you and the supplier reside in England and the contract was made in England) rectification and/or damages for the value of the loss of performance by the supplier.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

[rupert123]

Tracker - 2008-12-03 4:27 PM

 

That's a bit unkind Henry - lets give the poor chap or chapess the benefit of the doubt to start with, although somehow the email address on their profile seems to ring a bell as I seem to recall having seen it before?

 

I do agree that a few more specifics and naming and shaming would be more enlightening and more conducive to trying to help.

 

By the way if indeed you are new welcome to the forum Mr and/or Ms Angry.

 

Your right Rich, however this type of post makes no sense, at least to me.

[libby]

As a T5 user. I see no reason to comment unless they are more specific.

 

A contract is what it says.

[colin]

(mr) ANGRY, you have given no indication as to what is not fitted, it reads odd that you needed to refer to manual to find this is missing, letting us know what it is may result in some more informed answers.

[Tony Jones]

I think Henry may have a point here - if I'd joined a forum specially to ask advice about something as important as this, I'd be back on here every hour or so looking for answers, and responding to requests for more information.

I suggest that unless Mr Angry comes back on we let this thread drop off the end.

[ANGRY]

Thanks for all your responses & I’m sorry if I’ve not approached you all very clearly. This is my first time contacting a forum at all so you’ll need to treat me gently!

Also, I don’t use the net that often anyway & I certainly never leave it connected for long.

By coincidence, things moved on positively just this morning.

For now, please accept that this matter is very genuine indeed but that I cannot disclose full details yet in case it prejudices my legal position later.

As you know, one never truly knows who’s reading these things or for what reason. Once it’s all been settled you’ll be very welcome to the full story, especially if you’re about to order your own brand new camper!

Today I’ve located a suitably experienced solicitor who can start things off quickly so I’ve just sent off relevant details, therefore my sincere apologies to you all for my delayed reply.

 

To answer your general queries:-

The VW base was offered as being in stock locally & to a spec. which I was shown & given a copy. When all details had been agreed that spec. was then written onto the order/contract which I checked & signed as did the dealer.

Later I discovered the dealer was converting completely the wrong van - he was doing a 1.9 manual although I’d ordered a 2.5 auto! He said the auto I ordered wasn’t available, so did I want that manual or a different van altogether so he could still complete on time.

I requested my full deposit back instead - he then found the ordered auto still in stock but insisted on more build time.

He assured this time it was definitely the VW as per the signed order & he confirmed by e-mailed. I agreed completion delay provided reasonable compo. made. He agreed but never actually did anything. Each time I reminded him, he chased final payment even though not on the order. On collecting finished camper I checked all over thoroughly with dealer & my partner present. There were more minor issues causing minor delays in leaving for home but no deal breakers & he has since fully corrected those.

 

Once home & reading thro’ all the techi. stuff filling up the glove box I again noticed the normal air-bag warning stickers, so then referred to the new handbook. The keyed switch should be at the back of that glove box but is not - so the missing item is the passenger air-bag.

I’ve got written details from VW plus e-mails etc. all saying why retro fitting air-bag is not possible (a) completely not cost effective (b) no type approval © will void all normal VW warranty if attempted (d) not ordered at factory on this van.

What I’ve no answer for yet is why there’s those normal warning signs without the air-bag ever having been even ordered & why the dealer urgently just wants our camper back.

 

I suppose what I really, really (!) want is to find someone out there who’s had similar experience but it’s now ‘legally’ concluded so they can discuss in detail.

I’ve complained to dealers local Trading Standards but no response yet. I’ve also spoken to dealers local Consumer Direct who are very helpful - they’re very keen to get T. Stds. to pick up on why the safety signs, yet no air-bag.

I’ve sent report to BBC’s Watchdog, so keep viewing Mondays at 7:30pm. I’ve also written to 3 mags. the dealer advertises in regularly in the hope they’ll poke him with a sharp stick!

I’ve written to an independent mag. who carry a regular investigatory item into dealers who generally won’t do what they’re obliged to. To date, I’ve had no response from anyone.

 

Any comments appreciated but please be patient for responses - Cheers from ‘Angry’

[Guest JudgeMental]

Thats better ....May I suggest you change your Avatar to something less aggressive and more appropriate :-D

[Tony Jones]

I've no problem with the username, the "anger" is clearly directed elsewhere, not at anyone here!

My apologies, Jenni (?) for jumping to a conclusion based solely on silence - never a clever idea!

 

But this does sound rather a mess - rejection under Sale of Goods Act (not being "as described") seems the straightforward legal option, but I've no idea how you'd enforce that in the real world.

Eventually it may come down to a threat of "name and shame," not just on here but in local paper, specialist press, etc. But you'd need to have everything cast-iron to avoid any danger of libel or slander.

 

Keep us posted!

Tony

[Brian Kirby]

Jenni

First establish the facts.  Take your van to a VW commercial centre, and ask them to confirm definitively whether the airbag is present or not.  They can probably do this from the VIN (chassis number) but failing that I suspect the on-board computer will know.  They can even have a little peep if unsure!  That will settle, one way or another, whether the airbag is, or is not, present.  If it is, it seems you have the van you wanted.

If there is no airbag, in view of what VW have told you about the impossibility of retro-fitting this, the van does not, in a critical area, match the description you agreed with the converter.  This is a significant omission, and should entitle you to reject the vehicle and get all of your money back. 

Failing that, you may be able to negotiate a price reduction, at least equal to the cost of the missing airbag, with the dealer and keep the van.  However, I'm not legally qualified, and I do not know if you have any right to do so.  Nevertheless, it would seem to me that if you are prepared to accept the van minus the airbag in exchange for, say £1,000, you may well weaken your case for rejection, so I would not even discuss that option until you find out how much of a struggle you will have on your hands. 

It sounds as though you have dealt with a small converter, in which case having to foot the bill for the van, as well as his work to date, may well push him into bankruptcy. 

If you have taken any finance for this purchase, therefore, it may prove safer to reject the van to the finance company rather than the dealer.  Before you go further with your solicitor, therefore, which will only add to your overall costs, I would recommend an urgent meeting with your local Trading Standards department for more informed general guidance.

[donna miller]

Just my two pence worth, but if you take a look at this link, you will find that passenger airbags are a chargeable option on the VW conversions, are you 100% sure that it was ordered as an extra.

I wouldn't like to see you get this detail wrong, and end up losing your case.

 

http://www.danburymotorcaravans.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=25

 

As you can see, the airbag option was only £185 so there shouldn't be any reason it cannot be retrofitted, however, you should insist the dealer foots the bill for fitting it.( you have stated it cannot be done under warranty, so make them pay ) If this is the only reason you are making this complaint, I would strongly suggest you offer them this alternative before starting what could be a costly case.

[Brian Kirby]

Just copied this from the VW UK website, referring to the standard spec for the T5 Transporter van.  This spec is stated to be in common with the window van.  I assume more highly specified models (Caravelle etc) would be at least equal in the airbag spec.  It also refers to two side, and two curtain, airbags as standard.  Curioser, and curioser! 

"Driver and passenger airbags are standard, as of course are 3-point belts on all seats. With independent suspension, stable road holding and flexible engines, you can rest assured that your occupants and load will be safe, and that you’ll take every traffic situation in your stride."

I think you should check exactly what was the standard spec for the version you have, current at the time you ordered.  It seems your dealer may have expected the airbags to be present, but the van delivered to him was an older model.  That may indicate a problem between him and the VW supplier, who possibly delivered an old stock van.

However, so far as your van is concerned, it is his liability to sort it out.

[colin]

On latest version of T5 panel and chassis vans, driver and passenger airbags are standard, there is an option for front and side curtain bags if driver and single passenger comfort seats are fitted. Don't know if earlier versions had passenger airbag as standard, Danbury site would indicate not.

[davenewellhome]

Donna, I would expect retro fitting of a passenger side airbag to be quite an involved job as it will almost certainly involve replacement of the entire dash trim panel from drivers to passengers side. The fact that it was only £185 to order on a new van is simply the cost of the equipment that would be fitted on the production line, to retro fit it will cost significantly more. It may also be the case that the wiring harness could need to be changed to allow for the airbag.

 

D.

[Rayjsj]

JudgeMental - 2008-12-04 8:39 PM

 

Thats better ....May I suggest you change your Avatar to something less aggressive and more appropriate :-D

 

 

Te He ! Like a noose is just soo friendly, Might i suggest a blood soaked Guillotine ???? with optional severed head in basket . :D :D

[Derek Uzzell]

I was told (admittedly a year or two ago) that VW was very picky over retro-fitting 'safety-related' factory options. I was talking to someone specifically about cruise-control and was advised that VW had instructed their own main dealerships that they should not retro-fit this, nor make available to customers (trade or private) the parts needed to do so.

[donna miller]

Whoops ! Sorry Dave and Angry, I didn't mean it could be retro-fitted for £185.00 just that it cost that to add when ordering.

What I meant, was that if Angry did order it initially, then the dealer should be obliged to foot the bill, whatever the cost.

In my experience though, the trim and harness would usually be the same, it would just be that the air bag and the control unit were not fitted. I cant see any manufacturer these days having two separate dash's made, when 1 would do the job of both. ( However, I may be wrong..............then again :D )

[davenewellhome]

Ah but they do Donna, the passengers airbag is very often under the top moulding of the dash panel and therefore it will be different. Very often on cars that need repairs after an accident the dash has to be replaced because the passenger airbag has deployed and destroyed the dash in the process.

 

A customer recently in for a cruise fitting said he was trying to get it done By Fiat but when the van went in they found the fitted harness didn't have the required connections for the cruise so they couldn't fit it without replaicng the entire wiring loom.

 

D.