mike 202 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Just a bit of info, tried to post on Andy's forum, but it has not appeared, so is it full and a replacement thread is needed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
embee Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Did the same thing last night - no show either! My question - am I correct in assuming, an automatic X250 will not have the juddering problems ? If this is the case, are they available for the Swift Bolero ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 mike 202 - 2008-12-03 6:13 PM Just a bit of info, tried to post on Andy's forum, but it has not appeared, so is it full and a replacement thread is needed ? This was raised as a possibility recently and Andy Stothert probably has it in mind to start a new thread. For those wishing to review the story so far it can be found her: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=12560&start=661&posts=690 David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Mike, The Fiat thread may have reached its number-of-pages limit and need a kick from the forum administrators to exceed it. It's perhaps more likely though that your recent post has forced a new page to be created for the thread and your posting is currently in limbo waiting for that to happen. The number of postings per thread-page presently seems to be 30 and your posting would have pushed Page 23 of the Fiat thread past the 30 limit. I've noticed this "Where's my posting gone" phenomenon happen before when a posting of mine has forced a page change. As the Fiat thread is decidedly top-heavy nowadays, the forum's software seems to have to struggle extra hard to handle it. Suggest you be patient and see what happens. If the system appeared to have successfully accepted your last Fiat-thread posting, there's little point trying to resubmit it as all you'll do is end up with look-alike multiple postings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 embee, Regarding automatic X250s, have a look at pages 20 and 21 of the main Fiat Problems thread and draw your own conclusions. As far as I'm concerned the jury is definitely still out. I have a feeling Bolero comes only with the 2.3litre motor, so no auto option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted December 3, 2008 Author Share Posted December 3, 2008 Embee, agree with Derek look at the forum pages re any Fiat, Also look at the Forum posts on Swift in general and the Bolero in particular, the quality appears to be suspect. Just take care when choosing your base vehicle. Good luck Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
embee Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Thanks for the page leads to my question regarding the auto box. You know - I give up. There appears to be no clear info. on the X250. It seems there are so many contradictory reports but overall I feel I would be stupid buy any MH based on Fiat. Good luck to all you X250 owners - I'm out of here! (I will watch here on the forum with very great interest as this saga continues - not for too much longer I hope for every one sake) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 I have an X250 based Auto-trail Tracker, fitted with 160 Multijet and the quaintly named Comfortmatic gearchange. I have to say it is a delight to drive, no sign of judder when reversing up a slight slope to its parking slot at home or anywhere else on our travels so far, including getting stuck on soft grass a couple of weeks ago (needed RAC assistance to pull me out). I appreciate a lot of unlucky people have experienced problems with 100/130 Multijet engine/transmissions, but I do think the 160 engine has enough torque to be able to handle the higher gear ratio in reverse, which is what I gather is at the root of all the fuss. If you can find a Comfortmatic to test drive, give it a go and I think you will be impressed. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Armstrongpiper, How dare you come on this forum and give Fiat the slightest hint of praise?, not the done thing here you know!!. Automatic gear box fantastic eh, You will be saying the scuttle doesn't leak next, or that it's fantastic to drive. I think you will be classed an eejit along with yours truly, Bet you didn't have one on test before you brought yours though!. cheers Em. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earthmover Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hi Derek, I see that Mike 202 and yourself not unsurprisingly advised Embee not to invest in a new Fiat X250, can I ask which Motor home base vehicle(s) you WOULD advise Embee to go for?, at this point in time, bearing in mind the value of a new Swift Bolero, as a comparison. Perhaps Andy could also offer up his choice as well. Should be quite interesting, no conferring. cheers Em (Eejit) Muckshifter, muckraker, interloper, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 Ah, earthmover. The jury is still definitely out on the auto version. A far as I can tell (from the tests done by the MMM staff) the auto doesn't judder on quite steep hills, but as Fiat won't give us the technical info we don't know why, or what the difference is between that and the manual. The clutch is different, but whether it is up to the job of handling the high gearing on a long term basis nobody knows. As for the 3 litre manual well that one is responsible for all sorts of mischief with clutches burnt to a cinder, so the theory that the increased torque on this version eliminates the problem is complete b*****ks. For want of a rounder word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 embee - 2008-12-03 6:26 PM Did the same thing last night - no show either! My question - am I correct in assuming, an automatic X250 will not have the juddering problems ? If this is the case, are they available for the Swift Bolero ? You can certainly buy the Bolero with the auto box. Most who have them seem to be happy and I would assume those who say they have the judder just have a driving problem. I have the 100 multijet which certainly has no judder, now some disagree, so how can this be they all have the same box and final drive so again the problem would seem to be the driver. Swift indeed had a bad reputation for after care but to give them credit this is no longer the case. A few on this forum have a totally anti Fiat and Swift attitude. The Fiat one for the few who have a gearbox problem with the six speed box I can understand and hope they get it fixed but why dismiss all Fiats because one seems to have a problem. It remains the best base vehicle around at the moment and even if you want to make a habit of trying to reverse it up a wall, if you order now you will not get the van until well into the new year so will be able to do even that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted December 3, 2008 Share Posted December 3, 2008 And I almost forgot to add that there is now a host of good value Transit base vans on the market which I personally wouldn't buy. No, I'd wait until this fiasco is sorted out, as other than this basic and quite important design fault, we like our Ducato. But whilst it eats a gearbox (or clutch ) every time a steep hill is encountered backwards, then it isn't a lot of use is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted December 4, 2008 Author Share Posted December 4, 2008 Hi earthmover, "what would I recommend" ? Nothing it is up to the individual to choose depending on requirements and budget. However I had my new X250/130 Bolero in March 08 and it fell apart and went wrong around me including the habitation door. Traded it in for a new Auto-Sleeper based on Ford Transit RWD 140hp. Happy so far after 6 weeks in Spain. My Friend has Knaus/Renault and is also happy. I agree the X250 drives well forward, loved it, BUT Reverse plus Swift gave me too many headaches, the dealer even commented that some people thought that I was a staff member because I was always at his premises. In the end it is what makes a person happy and his choice enjoyable that counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapido-lass Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 I know I'll probably get my head chewed off - but I can only speak with the experience we have (and I'm probably tempting fate!) We have a 160bhp 3 litre manual Fiat based motorhome and in the 17 months we've had it, we have had had no reverse judder or problems mechanically of any kind. We do however use the motorhome very regularly and covered some 20,000+ miles. It has been a joy to drive - perhaps we are just lucky. Friends who have Fiat based motorhomes, have had problems with clutch and judder have had the 130bhp and do not regularly use it. I'd like to add I'm not employed by Fiat or being paid to say that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Just go and put it on a steep hill backwards and then place yoour nose near the clutch. Whilst the 3 litre versions appear to be less severe on gearboxes they definitely have an appetite for clutches wjhen pout in the extreme cicrumstances which cause the problems. Some owners of 3 litre models report very severe problems. Whilst I understand that folk who post positive comments on the Fiat think they are just being open minded and fair, they should also realise what we are trying to achieve here - a solution to this design defect which Fiat have been reluctant to implement for existing owners, and that any positive comment will encourage Fiat to try and evade its responsibilities. So please, can everyone just open their minds to the objective before posting anything. We have hundreds of VERY dissatisfied owners who need a resolution and we should all be sticking together in condemnation of Fiat's dishonest handling of this defect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Andy - I appreciate what you are trying to achieve with Fiat, and good luck to you. However, I don't think it helps anyone to condemn a vehicle because a minority of owners have had problems. Anyway, I was really replying to an earlier contributor to the thread who was soliciting opinion about the auto system, and passing on my experiences. Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 rupert123 - 2008-12-03 10:26 PM embee - 2008-12-03 6:26 PM Did the same thing last night - no show either! My question - am I correct in assuming, an automatic X250 will not have the juddering problems ? If this is the case, are they available for the Swift Bolero ? You can certainly buy the Bolero with the auto box. Most who have them seem to be happy and I would assume those who say they have the judder just have a driving problem. I have the 100 multijet which certainly has no judder, now some disagree, so how can this be they all have the same box and final drive so again the problem would seem to be the driver. Swift indeed had a bad reputation for after care but to give them credit this is no longer the case. A few on this forum have a totally anti Fiat and Swift attitude. The Fiat one for the few who have a gearbox problem with the six speed box I can understand and hope they get it fixed but why dismiss all Fiats because one seems to have a problem. It remains the best base vehicle around at the moment and even if you want to make a habit of trying to reverse it up a wall, if you order now you will not get the van until well into the new year so will be able to do even that. "...those who say they have the judder just have a driving problem..." "...the problem would seem to be the driver..." Bit insulting this to people who may have been driving vehicles in general and motorhomes in particular for some considerable time - without burning a clutch or breaking a gearbox isn't it? "...A few on this forum have a totally anti Fiat and Swift attitude....." Why on earth then would they spend thousands of pounds on a brand new Fiat based motorhome from Swift? However, given the experience endured by mike 202 with his new Bolero then anyone could be persuaded to become anti Fiat and Swift. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Its like pulling teeth sometimes. Who says it is only a minority of owners who have the problem? A design defect affects ALL of them whether you know it or not. Fiat and Peugeot have admitted that the reverse gear ratio is too high. Not that it is too high in some, but not others. And to achieve the result we need it has to affect sales, and the only way of doing that IS to condemn the vehicle outright. Those of you who in public, for whatever reason, say there is nothing wrong are undermining our attempts to resolve this. If you can't see that then perhaps you need to think a little more deeply about the issues and the way big business works. And can we go back to the original thread too - Warners say there is no capacity problem, just a temporary hiccup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 "...those who say they have the judder just have a driving problem..." "...the problem would seem to be the driver..." Bit insulting this to people who may have been driving vehicles in general and motorhomes in particular for some considerable time - without burning a clutch or breaking a gearbox isn't it? "...A few on this forum have a totally anti Fiat and Swift attitude....." Why on earth then would they spend thousands of pounds on a brand new Fiat based motorhome from Swift? However, given the experience endured by mike 202 with his new Bolero then anyone could be persuaded to become anti Fiat and Swift. David This is exactly the sort of narrow minded, ill thought out reply I object to. Mike 202 and his problems, whatever they were, is one person, their are thousands of happy Swift owners out their, just look in the Swift section of MHF forum, why condem a manufacturer for one persons problem, especially one who in the last two years that has made massive strides in putting things right. If you look back in various forums you will find complaints/problems with all manufacturers, it is the nature of forums, do we condem them all? As for the driving thing how else do you explain that most with the five speed and auto box get no judder. I know plenty of people who have been driving for a very long time and still have not got a clue, why should m/h drivers be an exception to this. The main thing here is not whether you can drive your own van well but if you can adapt to a differant vehicle quickly, an awful lot cannot probably because they do not have the practice. It still remains an example of bad driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Earthmover - 2008-12-03 10:17 PM Hi Derek, I see that Mike 202 and yourself not unsurprisingly advised Embee not to invest in a new Fiat X250, can I ask which Motor home base vehicle(s) you WOULD advise Embee to go for? As you seem prepared to deliberately misinterpret what I said for what I can only assume is your own entertainment, then it's doubtful that there's any point in me attempting to answer your question sensibly. However, I'll try. On page 20 of the main thread (presumably you've bothered to read this?) Nick Fisher stated authoritatively that the automatic gear-changing system used on Ducato comprises the same engine/transmission package employed on the 3.0litre manual model, plus some complex additional electro-mechanical gizmos to handle gear-shifting. Assuming that's correct (and I'm pretty sure Nick's knowledge and experience of X250 vehicles considerably exceeds that of any other forum member), then it's logical to fear that transmission-related problems reported as occurring on some manual-gearbox vehicles with the 3.0litre motor may also transfer to the automatic variant. Now, I'm fully aware that, for certain forum members, "logic" is missing from their dictionaries, but this seems a perfectly logical conclusion to me given the very limited amount of data presently available. Claims that automatic X250s are immune to the juddering defect are (as far as I'm aware) based on feedback from a small number of motorhome owners and testers who (like armstrongpiper) may, or may not, be subjecting the vehicles to a trial that's sufficiently rigorous to provoke the serious juddering behaviour. Embee (a caravanner at the moment) asked "Am I correct in assuming an automatic X250 will not have the juddering problems ?". I believe nobody is currently in a position to provide that assurance. The best advice that can be offered is that no-one (as far as I'm aware) has, SO FAR, reported encountering a juddering automatic Ducato. So - and I'm only repeating what I said in the other thread - if someone opts for an automatic X250, there's a reasonable chance, but no certainty, it won't judder. As far as I'm concerned the X250 chassis remains, on paper, the most attractive starting-point for a wide variety of front-wheel drive motorhomes. When X250 was first marketed I would have had no hesitation over buying a motorhome based on that chassis purely on its technical specification, except my deep-seated phobia regarding Fiat/Peugeot would have prevented me from doing so. This juddering business is exactly the sort of thing I've always been apprehensive of with Fiat/Peugeot and, as I've said before on this forum (yawn, yawn...), it hasn't surprised me one bit how manufacturers, converters and dealerships have reacted to it. I have no particular affection for motorhomes: they are just boring caravans perched on boring light trucks as far as I'm concerned. I no more love my Hobby motorhome than I love my lawn-mower. All I ask is that a motorhome represents fair value for the money I have paid for it and does the job I anticipated it would do. I bought my Ford-based Hobby because, after doing a lot of research, it was the only non-SEVEL vehicle that met my technical criteria and could be bought cheaply abroad in LHD format (which was OK for me). As I've said before (yawn, yawn, yawn...), I don't care for its gearing and, from a purist's viewpoint, because of this I would maintain that the FWD Transit is the 'wrong' chassis for a 3500kg coachbuilt motorhome. But, even though I'd prefer different gearing, I live with it as it is and just actively try to avoid situations where the high gearing would unavoidably stress the clutch. I rarely participate in "What motorhome should I buy?" forum discussions. I have 'mentored' a few people off-forum but it's never been easy, particularly when basic requirements are revealed to be contradictory. If embee is looking towards a motorhome of Bolero-type and price, then the choice of base vehicle is probably limited to Fiat/Peugeot, Ford Transit or Renault Master. New motorhomes on alternative platforms (Iveco, Mercedes, VW, etc.) are likely to be unsuitable design-wise or too expensive. If automatic gear-shifting is a must-have, then the Ford Transit has to be excluded. If the word "invest" is to be included in the selection equation, then it's worth remembering that a revised Renault Master is due for release within the next 12-24 months. I think most clued-up motorcaravanners would consider ordering or buying an X250 SEVEL-based motorhome a very brave 'investment' at present and would recommend prudently holding fire until it's known what Fiat/Peugeot are ACTUALLY going to do to resolve the juddering issue. Realistically, there seems to be absolutely no way of predicting whether an X250-based motorhome (whatever its technical specification) will judder or not and, if a test shows that it does vibrate, whether that vibration will be considered by the purchaser to be sufficiently insignificant that it can be tolerated. This unpredictability means that all past and present X250s must be considered suspect by potential purchasers until a practical test of the vehicle being sold can be carried out. My own attitude is simple. Anyone who is (or was) unaware of the X250 juddering phenomenon, who orders/buys (or ordered/bought) an X250-based motorhome and ends/ended up with a bad judderer, deserves sympathy because the defect is not something one might reasonably anticipate. Conversely, for people who are aware of the problem, who still choose to order/buy an X250-based motorhome that turns out to be a vibrating duffer, then they've only themselves to blame for knowingly taking the risk. If you are an incurable optimist, are swayed by Rupert123's assurances and are confident that these are founded on wide-ranging information and expert foreknowledge, then I wish you the best of luck if you decide to put an X250 Fiat/Peugeot motorhome (new or secondhand) on your shopping list, But I wouldn't consider taking that step until this on-going fiasco is sorted out satisfactorily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armstrongpiper Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Express an opinion which differs from the Heavyweights of this Forum, put your head above the edge of the trench, and you'll get it blown off and be told you are stupid. What's the point of this Forum if it is only to hear one side of a story? Neil B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Well Derek that lot must have made the typeing finger ache. I am going to back out of the Fiat judder thing after this one last comment. First I gave no assurances, just my own 9000 miles with an X250 experience, wonder what your practical experience is or are you simply chooseing to believe what you wish to. I also pointed out the comments made by others on the 3.0ltr auto. Now I may be misunderstanding your bit about your Ford based van but you appear to be saying the gearing is to high and you avoid any situation where you may stress the clutch, is this not the very reason you choose to ignore the X250, please explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porky Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Following on from armstrongpipers warning about sticking your head above the parapet, I`me just wondering if an automatic does the gear changing for you, and that removes the need to slip the clutch, then does it not follow that if there is a judder or clutch melting then it has to be a fault and not the driver. Too simplistic??? Porky well fed and happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Porky 100% right (meaning there must be a design fault) Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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