colinfrier Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 Yes I also think it is an insult to those that have experianced the problem to suggest it's their driving FIAT have admitted there is a problem!!!!!!!! so are they wrong. Just to put this myth to bed FIAT told me to take my vehicle into a dealer and guess what ? that's right they confirmed it juddered or was their driving also at fault. Come on Wakey Wakey some of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 4, 2008 Share Posted December 4, 2008 From what I have read on the various threads and heard first hand from some owners, there is a definite problem with some of the new Fiat (Peugeot and probably Citroen) based vans and motrohomes. Fiat themselves have also admitted there is a problem. Rupert, can you please accept that there is definitely a fault with some of these vehicles and also stop winding others up by saying that if they can't solve this juddering by adapting their driving style, it is them who can't drive properly. If all you intend to do is antagonise and preech how 'good' you are at driving that you can sort it and thereby if other's can't, imply that they must be 'inferior', then this isn't actually helping anyone at all. I haven't got one of the new Fiat bases but we have considered changing to one, but based on what I've heard and who I've talked to with the problem, and some dealers as well, there's no way I'd get one at the moment. As for the Transit base, I believe I can answer what Derek is talking about, the first gear is set low so that it is easy to stall when first pulling away and the top gear again is set rather too low so that you have to use more revs than for some other base vehicles. However, these are things we also live with, we know how to deal with them and have been able to 'adapt' our driving style to take account of them (no, don't get all excited ... I'm not playing into your hands!). These gearing idiosycrasies, however, are absolutely miniscule compared to the problems being experience by some Fiat owners, we do not burn out our clutch, or get judder, the worst that will happen is that we may stall it on rare occasions and the engine noise in the cab may be a bit louder at higher speeds. It doesn't turn in to an Australian marsupial having a bad day and belching stinky tobacco! Rupert, I really, really, do hope that your van doesn't get any worse ... but who really knows? Unless Fiat get this resolved and can categorically say what is likely to be the long term effect to vans so afflicated in the future, you really don't know what is round the next bend, or backwards up the next steep hill, for you. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapido-lass Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 armstrongpiper - 2008-12-04 1:30 PM Express an opinion which differs from the Heavyweights of this Forum, put your head above the edge of the trench, and you'll get it blown off and be told you are stupid. What's the point of this Forum if it is only to hear one side of a story? Neil B I totally agree with you! Having said that I personally hadn't suffered any problems doesn't mean that I am not sympathetic to the problem, or would not wholly support it, but by being rudely shot down in flames certainly doesn't help the cause. Perhaps this is the way you have approached Fiat or your dealership and put their backs up. I understand you are frustrated but attack is not necessarily the best form of defense if you want a positive out come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 As this thread rapidly skidded way off its original topic, I may as well push it further. My earlier comment about my Ford-based Hobby's less-than-ideal gearing for a 3500kg motorhome related specifically to the front-wheel drive Transit platform-cab chassis with 2.0litre (or 2.2litre) motor and 5-speed gearbox. Mel B's Transit-based Rimor is built on a chassis-cab platform, is rear-wheel drive and uses a 2.4litre motor with (I'm pretty sure) a 6-speed gearbox. The gear ratios of Mel's vehicle are totally different to those of mine, with (as she rightly says) the Rimor's gear ratios being relatively low, whereas my Hobby's ratios are relatively high. It's received wisdom (and often mentioned in motorhome test-reports) that all 2000-onwards Transits, front-wheel drive or rear-, have shown a tendency to stall when starting from rest unless care is taken to keep up the revs. This has been discussed before on the forum and the reasons are severalfold. But, basically, it boils down to "that's what the beggers are like". It's not an endearing characteristic, there's no real cure, but practice helps. My FWD Hobby is much closer conceptually to the X250 Ducato/Boxer than to Mel's RWD Rimor. The Hobby's high 1st gear and innate trickiness at engine speeds near tick-over mean that, if you need to start from rest on a steep hill, then you need lots of revs to do it and, consequently, lots of clutch slipping. There's no way to avoid this technique and I've been reliably informed that burnt-out clutches on 'commercial' FWD Transits are, in fact, far from rare. Mel's Rimor may be a mite stall-prone from rest but, once it begins to move, its low gearing means that the clutch can quickly be fully engaged and the vehicle can then slowly and sedately climb the side of a house. My Hobby ain't like that. On a steep slope you need plenty of revs to get the thing moving and lots of revs to keep it moving. If you can accelerate sufficiently rapidly on the slope to get the clutch fully 'home' and the motor well into its power-band then my Hobby will climb a steep incline, but it will be doing this as fast as a home-sick angel not at a gentle controlled walking pace. Let the revs drop back and the motor will start to die leaving two choices - stop and reverse back down the hill or start to slip the clutch to keep up the revs. The 2nd choice is not really a viable option as, although slipping the clutch will raise the revs, it also means insufficient power reaches the wheels to overcome the effect of the high 1st gear. If you own a FWD Transit-based 3500kg coachbuilt motorhome that's well-loaded and end up stopped on a steep hill, you'll need to think very carefully what you are going to do next. This is why nowadays I'm very wary of steep hills where I might end up stationary or need to travel very slowly. Now, I've had one 'go' with my Hobby at climbing an ultra-steep hill. This was earlier this year at a campsite at Lanvéoc overlooking Brest. The campsite is terraced and the access roads between the terracing are short and savagely sloped. Having turned lazily on to the first access road, accelerated and fully engaged the clutch, it immediately became apparent that the vehicle was struggling and very unlikely to make it to the top of the incline before the motor stalled. I believe there is a natural tendency at this point to depress the clutch-pedal in the hope that doing so will help, when, in fact, all it will do is place stress on the clutch. Cursing my initial diffidence I stopped, reversed down the slope, selected Lewis Hamilton mode and really accelerated hard into the incline. This time the Hobby shot up the hill and, as I was keeping an eagle-eye on the rev-counter, showed no sign of slowing down. Plainly it can handle very steep hills as long as speed on them can be maintained. When we were leaving the campsite I thought to myself "I'll just try that reversing up a steep slope thing that many of these X250 SEVELs seem to dislike intensely." So I reversed gently into the base of the access road to the next terrace (a slope even more extreme than the first one) and applied power gradually. The Hobby just sat there as if set in concrete and I didn't proceed with the experiment. I don't know what the reverse-gear ratio is on my Hobby (because I've never bothered to find out), but the Lanvéoc experience indicates it's at least as high as 1st gear and very probably higher. And, if steep-hill-starting and slow hill-driving going forwards in 1st gear is potentially going to burn out my Hobby's (expensive) clutch, it's sure as eggs is eggs that trying to do the same thing going backwards presents an even greater risk. I've no idea what driving techniques X250-motorhome owners are using when their vehicles' clutches start to smoulder. Having seen some of the antics motorcaravanners get up to on campsites putting their vehicles on to levelling wedges, it wouldn't astound me if some owners have (perhaps unavoidably) adopted a technique when reversing that employs a very large bucketful of revs to overcome the effect of the high gearing. Lots of revs + lots of clutch-slipping = hot clutch. I recall Andy Stothert saying that Transits don't exhibit a juddering characteristic similar to the X250s, but I'm confident I could get mine to react unpleasantly if I attempted to reverse slowly up a steep hill simultaneously trying to keep engine revs down to a minimum and slipping the clutch as little as possible. I'm also sure that, doing the same thing with a shed-load of revs and masses of clutch-slipping, the chances would be high of smoke soon coming from the clutch-housing. However, even if some X250-motorhome owners were treating their vehicle's clutches in a way I'd be uncomfortable doing myself (and I hasten to say I've absolutely no evidence that they are), that doesn't mean there's no general problem. If an X250-owner has registered a complaint with Fiat/Peugeot, the vehicle has been tested by a manufacturer's agent and found to be wanting, then the easy assumption that "It's the owner's fault" has to be cast aside. Regarding Rupert123's question: "Now I may be misunderstanding your bit about your Ford based van but you appear to be saying the gearing is to high and you avoid any situation where you may stress the clutch, is this not the very reason you choose to ignore the X250, please explain." Why I wouldn't buy an X250-based motorhome has nothing to do with its technical specification. I wouldn't buy a Citroen, Fiat, Peugeot (or Renault)-based motorhome when I began motorcaravanning in 1998 and I wouldn't buy one now. The reason is simply that I have always been apprehensive about these companies' attitude to their customers when things go wrong. You can call this pure paranoia on my part and I won't argue. I've readily admitted it in the past as a personal prejudice, but I've never made any attempt to convert other motorcaravanners to my way of thinking. I'm sure it's churlish to say this (though I'm fond of a bit of churl on a Friday), but my paranoia - justified or not - has protected me from the ongoing juddering debacle and I'm certainly not going to change my mind in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 OK one last comment. Mel I have NEVER SAID their is no problem with the X250, please, please go back and read my post properly. To repeat myself once again I said their is no problem, as far as I am aware, with the 5 speed box and the 3.0ltr auto. I suggested any problem with the 5 speed must be linked to the driver as it is unlikely that the great majority are good and a few bad. I actually said in a previous post I did not consider myself a good driver, age and slowing reactions are setting in. If I can manage anyone should be able to. Derek, at least you are honest and your reasons, as far as I am concerned are fine, I to have the same attitude to certain cars. I fully agree with Andy's campaign and that Fiat must sort it out, as I am sure they will, at the same time trying to minimise costs to themselves. Incidently the 100ps engine is now being offered with a six speed box, make what you will of that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 A point that is constantly overlooked with the high gearing is the inability to control your speed when reversing in confined spaces. It's all very well expounding theories on how to control the clutch/throtle but if your flying back at 10mph with only 6" either side then slipping the clutch is the ONLY way you can control your speed and position. Even if you are able to reverse up a hill without JUDDER try it again in a confined spaces and you will find you have to slip the clutch come of the gas and you judder. I KNOW its happened to me on 3 occasions in 12,000 miles so it is not that rare an occurance. You should be able to go backwards with the clutch fully engaged at a very slow walking pace with an X250 you can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'm sure rupert may have a theory as to why............ David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 david lloyd - 2008-12-05 12:18 PM I'm sure rupert may have a theory as to why............ David Sure do but will keep it to myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 GOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 fred as a theory to why rupert is keeping it to imself me ansums!!! f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I'd vowed to myself that I wouldn't post on this thread again, but I'm weak, and I've had half a bottle of extremely good wine bought yesterday from Lidl (Spanish Tarragona Gran Reserve with very tatty looking gold wire round the bottle) and all I can say is that even at £4.49 it is really, really very nice. I reckon Henry is alright - he just has a tendency to argue with everybody about everything for the sake of arguing's sake. So I gave him some counselling yesterday and he is now a very confused man indeed, but with a clearer vision of what this bunch of old nutters is trying to achieve. Is all that clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 I did to Andy but am pretty weak as well but I am doing my best. I have been insulting people on here so may get thrown off, perhaps we can form a club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted December 5, 2008 Share Posted December 5, 2008 Melvin - 2008-12-05 1:55 PM GOOD I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted December 6, 2008 Share Posted December 6, 2008 Maybe this thread should be turned over to a 'psychotherapy room' where people can spend a little time in a calm, tranquil atmosphere after reading the main thread on Fiat juddering? Then go find an alternative to buying an X250 based motorhome until this thing is sorted properly. David P.S. I feel calmer already........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 david lloyd - 2008-12-06 10:45 AM Maybe this thread should be turned over to a 'psychotherapy room' where people can spend a little time in a calm, tranquil atmosphere after reading the main thread on Fiat juddering? Then go find an alternative to buying an X250 based motorhome until this thing is sorted properly. David P.S. I feel calmer already........... MMMMMMMM ! Me Too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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