Hopesy Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 We were away in Malvern the weekend and used our blue bottles without any problem. It was very frosty and cold. I was planning on changing to propane (red) but haven't got round to it yet. My question is is it worth it as i can't see us camping in colder conditions than we had. they were also ok at Easter in the lakes in the snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianR Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I have had problems with butane refusing to gas at temperatures as high as 40F. It may be that your offtake was low. I find that it happens most when using the gas heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Yes change, the more gas you draw the worse it is. What happens is, the lower the temp is the less liquid changes to gas therefore ultimately stopping every thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hopesy - 2008-12-08 6:28 PM We were away in Malvern the weekend and used our blue bottles without any problem. It was very frosty and cold. I was planning on changing to propane (red) but haven't got round to it yet. My question is is it worth it as i can't see us camping in colder conditions than we had. they were also ok at Easter in the lakes in the snow. Seeing as how it don't cost 'owt and Propane guarantees heating in all weathers how can it not be worth it for at least one gas bottle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hopesy, I've always felt that the tendency for a fair proportion of UK motorcaravanners to choose butane was a spill-over from the caravanning fraternity who rarely used their leisure-vehicles in freezing weather. While it may be possible to get more 'oomph' per litre from butane, it is plainly asking for trouble once the weather gets really cold. In countries like France and Germany with similarly cold winters to ours, propane is universally used by motorcaravanners irrespective of the season. Are you sure your Avantgarde's gas-locker is properly sealed from the motorhome's living area? I'm wondering whether there isn't a gaping hole in the back of the locker that you haven't noticed and is allowing hot air from the vehicle's interior to warm the butane bottles sufficiently for the gas to continue to vaporise. ;-) Seriously though, you've been lucky so far but (if you intend to use your 'van throughout the winter) it's likely to be just a matter of time before you get caught out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 OK thanks for the advice, I'll be changing over. Can i exchange the blue bottles for the red ones at a calor outlet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza454 Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hopesy - 2008-12-09 9:40 AM OK thanks for the advice, I'll be changing over. Can i exchange the blue bottles for the red ones at a calor outlet? Yes you can - no problem.Have a look at the new(ish) lightweight propane cylinders, similar weight full as the original ones are empty. Additional bonus is that they have a guage to let you know the amount of gas remaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapido-lass Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 We have changed over to the new lightweight cylinders. Even when full I can manage to carry them no problem, plus it helps with the all important pay load! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hopesy, If you change you will need to also change the adapter on the end of the connecting hose from a push on to a screw on. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted December 9, 2008 Author Share Posted December 9, 2008 Thanks for the advice, i realised i'll have to change the connection but when i asked at a cc site (my nearest calor dealer) they said they weren't allowed to exchange the blue for red so at the moment i'm stuck with two blue bottles ( not the flies). Anyone got any sugestions please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I too have come across some Calor dealers who say they cannot change, and then found one who said "rubbish" they can change, its just easier for them to have calor delivery driver change like for like. So my suggestion is try a non campsite Calor dealer. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Where abouts are you, hubby will be making a delivery in Coleford in the next 7 days or so, we have got a couple of 13kg propane bottles lying around from when we had the lpg tank fitted.He could take one and arrange to meet you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Hopesy, Calor's current rules permit their agents to exchange a very wide variety of different capacity and/or 'gas-type' Calor bottles. For example, 4.5kg(butane) for 15kg(butane), 7kg(butane) for 3.9kg(propane), 6kg(propane) for 13kg(propane), etc. For specific details of which bottles can (in principle!) be swapped for which, refer to Calor's website (www.calorgas.co.uk). Calor regulations used to be far more stringent, generally banning large-capacity bottles from being exchanged for smaller ones, but (as far as I'm aware) swapping a butane bottle for an equivalent size propane one (eg. replacing a 7kg(butane) with a 6kg(propane)), or vice versa, was always permitted by Calor. Despite this, it was far from uncommon for Calor agents to take a rigid stance and only agree to swap bottles on an exact like-for-like basis. Alhough Calor's attitude to bottle-exchange is more relaxed nowadays, I believe there's nothing preventing Calor agents from continuing to adopt a firm like-for-like exchange policy, even when they are fully aware that this policy differs from Calor's own. As Brambles suggests, if certain Calor agents feel it's easier to swap bottles like-for-like only, then that's what they can do and Calor won't attempt to prevent them. If you print off the 'rules' from Calor's website (and all Calor agents should be aware of those rules even if they deny it) and wave them under a Calor agent's nose, that won't necessarily guarantee he/she will agree to swap your bottles. Neither will Calor attempt to control the bottle-exchange prices charged by their agents. A couple of potential downsides to Calor's lightweight-steel 6kg propane bottles are a) the exchange cost is higher than for the standard 'heavy' 6kg equivalent (it's lighter, it's got a gauge, what do you expect?!) and b) because it's a specialised product, availability at Calor agents - at least for now - will be inferior to that of the standard 6kg container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 A point to remember, is that the Calor butane bottles hold more gas than the equivalent size of propane cylinder. This is an important point if you travel abroad, as changing / refilling may be impossible. Our van can carry one 7/6kg and one 4.5/3.9kg bottle, so the difference between total butane at 11.5kg and total propane at 9.9kg is that we have an extra 1.6kg of butane compared to propane. This is worth having if the temperatures allow. We have been to the North Cape of Norway this year using the 7kg Calor butane cylinder without any problem, also to the top of the highest pass in the Alps at the beginning of October (9200ft) and brewed-up without any difficulty whilst it was snowing. I understand that the Calor 'butane' cylinders contain some propane to assist in low temperature operation and that provided you are not making heavy demands on the supply, it will work even when quite frosty. No argument about the value of propane when it is really cold, but butane is not as bad as some would make out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 That's fair comment Mike but I have feeling that the specific heat output from the burning of Propane is about 10 to 15% greater than the same amount of Butane. This might offset the lower approximately 15% lower capacity of the Propane bottle somewhat as long as you burn less gas in getting the same amount of heat - but I'm not convinced you do burn less? The kettle might boil quicker on Propane but does it use less gas or, put another way, will a full bottle of Butane or Propane boil the most kettles full? Maybe the fridge with it's lower and more steady demand would run longer on Propane? I don't know - but I bet someone on here does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 Rich I have the feeling that you may have confused specific heats and pressures here. In the old days (about 7years ago) we used different pressures for butane and propane in our vans and indeed anyone with an older model will still do so. Then butane ran at 28mb and propane at 37mb, which is a good indication that more propane was required than butane to do the same job. This means that propane was less efficient than butane i.e. more was needed for the same amount of heat. Now we run at a common pressure of 30mb for both gasses, all the devices that use LPG have had to have their burners re-designed to accept both and the effect seems to be that more propane is used than butane to achive the same result. Thus butane, not only has a greater capacity per cylinder than propane, it is more efficient. i.e. a kg of butane will last longer than a kg of propane. Or have I got it wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 There is some useful information on butane and propane on: http://www.calorgas.co.uk/lpg/butane.htm http://www.calorgas.co.uk/lpg/propane.htm By volume, liquefied butane is heavier than liquefied propane. So a Calor 7kg (butane) bottle contains the same volume of LPG as a 6kg (propane) bottle, but the weight of the butane in the former is about 1kg greater than the weight of propane in the latter. Butane also has a significantly greater calorific value than propane - essentially, for the same volume of gas, you'll get more bangs for your buck from butane than from propane. However, you'll only get those bangs if the butane is warm enough to vaporise. Calor's data indicate that UK-commercialised butane contains some propane and that UK-commercialised propane contains some butane. My understanding is that the percentages of propane in UK butane and of butane in UK propane are quite small, and a result of the refinement process rather than deliberate. There seems to be no good commercial reason for Calor to 'spike' their butane bottles deliberately with propane to assist vaporisation in cold weather. Butane bottles are intended for use in domestic situations (room heaters, etc.) where freezing temperatures aren't a factor. I have heard it suggested that the butane in Campingaz bottles (that target the camping market) may have a proportion of butane added to help with cold weather usage, but I've never seen any evidence to support that theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 WE have not got it wrong about butane at low temperatures, this is from many years of experiance both camping and profesionaly, You have just been very lucky, pos your bottles are kept warm from heat from M/H, please be advised people, its not worth taking the chance. USE PROPANE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 I actually use blue throughout the year, same as someone above, for summer extended trips it gives me the amount of gas I need. In the winter, yes I have had probems with low gas pressure in mornings but have that all planned with carrying a fresh bottle and just switch over to it, then back again once M/H has warmed up a bit and a hot water bottle next to the cylinder. All just part of the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopesy Posted December 11, 2008 Author Share Posted December 11, 2008 Donna thanks for the offer of a bottle, i have now obtained a red bottle of the size i want so your hubby won't have to make an extra trip but the thought was much appreciated. Also thanks to everyone else for the advice. I'll phone around calor dealers to get the swap i want for the other one unless i obtain another in the meantime, Ta Rog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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