aljen Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hello Everyone and Happy New Year to all Having just been away for a new year break i had a problem with filling my fresh water tank. i had half filled it prior to going away to check out the heating and hot water etc, everything was just fine. on arrival to site, went to make a cuppa, no water, tank was registering empty. on filling the tank from a watering can the water just came out of an overflow pipe. i then checked all the valves etc and they worked as they should, but i just couldnt get water into the tank. Boy do manufacturers make things difficult, i just couldnt find access to the tank from inside or out. does anyone know if any access can be gained to the tank. the tank is within the double floor but the only part of the tank i can see is the side. any help would be very helpful. has anyone know if a installation guide can be found for the water tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 No experience of Burstner I'm afraid but are you sure that what you thought was the overflow is not simply the drain down outlet tap either left open or broken/jammed because it ought to be very difficult for an overflow to flow over unless the tank is very full? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi Alan. I have a 660 and the access to the water tank is through a trap in the floor, mine is under the table at the wall side. You should get access to the top of the tank, a large red screw cap. Inside is the water pump and a chain fixed to the drain plug. Hope this helps. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi Alan. Just thought about overflow pipe. Mine hasn't got one, when tank is full water comes back up the filler hose. I think the plug might be out in the tank. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi Mike I have a tank in the middle of the aisle at the kitchen end. i had assumed this was the waste tank given its location and this is fitted with a red cap. i had run some water down the sink and water came into this, i didnt see any drain plug fitted. the fresh water inlet is at the passenger door side and the fresh water tank is close to the outlet. i had closed all the valves that i know off, the drain valve and the drain for the heater and both drained as normal. I have 3 outlets, 1 to drain the fresh water, Yellow lever, 1 for the trauma heater, and this other, without any valve and it is only when i try and put in water that this drains. i cannot see anything in the manual for this and i have also asked Burstner Direct by email to see if they can help. Thanks Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stelynn Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I don't have experience of Burstner either ~ but have had a similar problem. In my case it was the Truma boiler/heater automatic drain valve that had opened during transit and then when re-filling, the water just passed through. After raising the temperature of the heater, I could then manually close the valve and take on water. Hope this helps. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 5, 2009 Author Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hi Steve You could be right, i didnt want to run the trauma heater just in case i didnt have enough water in the system, it was cold and didnt want to run the hot water because of the frost. I will try that at the weekend and hopefully that may help with the problem. Pity we dont get a proper diagram showing all the water pipes etc instead of all the bumph about things that we dont need to know about. Thanks for your reply Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Alan. If you see water entering the tank when poured down the sink, I would think this is the waste tank. Can you see the water pump inside, mine is easily accessable from the inspection cap and the drain plug chain is fixed to the cap. The fresh water tank is white and the waste is usually black. Have you got anymore hatches in the floor? I was also thinking, the same as Steve, it might be the Truma dump valve, unless you have the water heater on, the valve will open, and stay open. And when you try to refill the tank the water goes staight through. Try closing the valve and then pouring some water in. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hi Mike The trauma valve was closed, i had held it up with a clothes peg hoping it would stay closed. Would this valve not activate if the heater was not on? The tank i could see was white, so maybe i was hearing the water entering the waste tank, when i look into the hatch from outside, where the trauma heater valve is i can see the end of another white tank with blue pipework going in from the top, no sign of the fresh water pipe tho, i had assumed that this was the fresh water tank. I will have a good look at the weekend Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Alan: As you've jammed the Truma safety/drain valve closed in the time-honoured manner, that's not the cause of the problem and running the heater shouldn't have any useful effect. Similarly, as you've been putting fresh water into your motorhome via the fresh-water filler-inlet and water's coming out somewhere else, the waste-water tank can't be involved. I've got a Burstner 2007 brochure but I think the E-681 ceased being made in 2005. Nevertheless, it's likely that Burstner used much the same water-system set-up for 2007 Elegances as for your motorhome. A brochure photo shows an Elegance's between-floors waste-water tank as being black with a red access cap in its upper surface (reachable through a floor hatch above the cap), whereas the adjacent fresh-water tank is white with two red access caps. The first access cap in the fresh-water tank would have needed a floor hatch to reach it, while the other cap will have been reached via an exterior hatch in the motorhome's side bodywork. The fresh-water tank has two blue water hoses leading from connections in the tank's upper surface. One hose goes to a nearby Truma electric safety/drain valve (and onwards to supply water to the heater, taps, etc.), while the other hose clearly provides an overflow/air vent. I don't know if the water pump is within the tank or outside it - the photo suggests the latter, but I believe Burstner use submerged or pressure-sensitive pumps according to model (or whim!). The brochure photo roughly matches your description that "When I look into the hatch from outside, where the Truma heater valve is I can see the end of another white tank with blue pipework going in from the top" but I'm sure you'll find that your Elegance has just a single large (120 litres?) fresh-water tank that's a peculiar sort of angular S-shape (to fit snugly into the available underfloor space) and what you are seeing through the hatch is the lower part of the 'S' not a second tank. The fresh-water tank in the brochure photo has two alternative filler inlet-points (one in the top part of the 'S' and the other in the lower part) and I assume one or other of these is employed according to which Elegance model the tank is fitted to. There's a photo in September 2005's MMM (page 136) that shows a similar water-tank arrangement on a Burstner Delfin and the filler inlet-point used there is the one in the sloped lower end of the 'S' just inside the bodywork-hatch. Logically, you've either not shut all the drain valves that relate to the fresh-water system or (if it's got one) your water tank's drain-plug has come loose as Mike H suggests. It's not uncommon for fresh-water tanks to have an internal drain-plug that screws into the tank's bottom and is reached through a large access-cap in the tank's upper surface. A water-system leak is a third possibility but, as the water is apparently emerging from a proper drain-outlet or water-pipe, this seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hi Derek Thanks for your message I am confused as to which tank is which. I have a hatch about 8in round in front of the kitchen, approx just forward of the rear axle which houses a white tank with a red cap, i opened this and found the water to be clear, i didnt look for a drain plug, no chain attached and didnt look to see what size it was or if there was another red cap fitted. The waste tank is behind the rear axle which is underslung and black, could be just the covering used elswhere on the underside and the waste dump valve is fitted in the rear part of the underfloor area. How i wish i had a layout as you described as this would have explained a lot. The fresh water fill cap is located next to the passenger cab door and i had hoped to find the fresh water tank located under the L shaped lounge, but nothing found there, just the fill pipe running through it to under the kitcken, i looked under the kitchen units to check if there was any access hatches there, none found. Underneath the lounge seating is where i noticed the end of the white tank with just the top showing, which would be very difficult to ascertain how big it could be. yes my tank should hold about 120ltrs and there would be room for one at this position as the floor drops down to the underside of the skirt, which would make it a large long shaped tank to reach to the aisle at the kitchen Hopefully i have enough information from this post to check all the bits and pieces together. Ah the joys Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron. Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Alan The black tank amidship near your kitchen is definitely your waste tank and the white one under your N/S bench seat is your fresh water tank. I was also inclined to think that it was something to do with your Truma safety valve as this is situated nowhere near your boiler and can dump the water through the boiler even when it is hot. However, if it is still closed then I can't see it being this. Suggest you simply ring a Burstner service centre, not Chelston!, who maybe have experienced the problem before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybvi Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Alan I have a late 2005 Elegance 681 and can confirm that the access cap to the freshwater tank is under a hatch (about 8" square) on the floor on the nearside of the van just forward of the forward facing belted seats which back onto the kitchen. The hatch is between these forward facing seats on the front nearside underbench locker (i.e. under the removable seat). On my vehicle the access cap is red (about 6" diameter) and there is a chain fitted to the underside of this cap which connects to the drain plug. If this chain is missing the drain plug is quite a reach forward from the access cap on the floor of the tank. You should also see the submersible water pump immediately under the access cap. The tank is white. The waste tank access cap is under a similar hatch in the floor between the fridge freezer and the sink unit. The cap is blue and the tank is black. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybvi Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Alan Further thoughts about your problem - the fresh water tank drain pipel ooks very much like an overflow pipe under the van. Could your drain plug simply have worked loose? Just pushing it back in (its just a simple plug in a hole!) may do the trick. Good luck Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Tony Thanks for your info, silly me didnt think to remove the carpets from the lounge, the wife likes to keep her feet warm. I did look under the lounge seats thinking that would be a reasonable location. From what you say im hopeful that i will find the blinking thing this weekend, i work away all week so i have a lot of ideas to work from. I did notice the red cap on the tank in front of the freezer had a Hymer red cap fitted, they seem to get everywhere these guys. I assume you are indicating it should be under the monstrosity of a table or close by. On another note, on the wall at the habitation door where the control for the heating unit is, do you also have another switch below this that says Truma EL on it? I am puzzled by this switch thinking the previous owner had Elec water/ heating rather than just gas. Any ideas? Thanks alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hi Ron Funny thing is, i had emailed a few of the Burstner dealers regarding this problem, but not one has bothered to return a message. its good to know they are there to help. I have an interesting weekend ahead of me i think Thanks for your help alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Hi Ron Funny thing is, i had emailed a few of the Burstner dealers regarding this problem, but not one has bothered to return a message. its good to know they are there to help. I have an interesting weekend ahead of me i think Thanks for your help alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 What puzzles me, is why you don't have the truly excellent, and very comprehensive, Burstner manual. Did you buy from a Burstner dealership? If so, they owe you a manual. They can access the Burstner website through the dealer network, and can access, and print, the manual for your model. Chelston did this for me three years ago, and I didn't even buy from them! It runs to 100 plus pages though, so I wouldn't volunteer to print it off yourself, but all it will cost them is time and paper, plus a bit of toner! Try to get them to print it double sided, though, then you can get it bound and it won't come out too bulky. Failing that, I wonder if you can get them to copy it to a CD?It'll tell you where all kinds of things are! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybvi Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Alan As Brian says the Burstner manual is excellent - a bit too big for me to copy for you but it will be worth your while to try to get hold of one! The switch you ask about is for turning the water heater on when on EHU. The space heating is gas only, for which you use the main Truma switch - this switch has a rotating thermostatic control in the centre for the space heating and has 4 switch positions: anticlockwise from OFF gives you gas water heating only at 40 or 60 degrees. / clockwise from OFF gives you gas space heating only or gas space and gas water heating (space heating controlled by thermostat, water at 60 degrees). The water heater has an electric collar which means that if you are on hook up you can heat the water by electricity - this is what the other switch is for and it is only either on (green illuminated) or off. You are correct in that the hatch for the fresh water tank is under the large table - simply lift the carpet, crawl under the table and look for the hatch just in front of the heating vent underneath the removable sideways facing bench seat. Hope this helps. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hi Brian I bought privately from a small dealer friend who was selling it for his mate who had bought another in Germany. The only manuals that came with it covers the basics and general items, it is quite thick but it is not specific to one model. Whilst i can usually get by, some things do catch me out, and not being to experienced i struggle at times. I did phone the previous owner to ask if he had any more lit for the van, but said that was all he had. I will try and contact a few dealers and see if i can find a copy of the specific manual as im sure that it would be a great help Thanks for your input Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Tony Thanks, i did think the switch was for elec hot water, was just needing it confirmed, the manual i have does not show the switch at all. i will check out everything this weekend and hopefully get things sorted this weekend. I notice you dont live too far from me, im in Inverness Thanks again for all your help alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 This earlier thread may be useful regarding Truma's drain valve http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=11888&posts=21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybvi Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Alan In Inverness I suspect you have had the same severe frosts as we have (-11) and if you didn't leave any heating on then, as others have suggested, the Truma dump valve will have kicked in. The plumbing on the 681 is such that if the dump valve is open as you fill with fresh water it simply keeps draining. In case you haven't found it yet, because it is nowehere near the boiler (!!!), the dump valve is in the smallest external locker on the nearside of the van beneath the lounge window (ie between the water filler cap and the rear axle. The valve is easily visible and has a red knob which is open when in the down position. If you pull this knob up and it stays up then you can fill with water. If it simply drops down again because the temperature is too low then the way I get round this is to turn on the gas heating and set the thermostat to the lowest setting. The 681 electronics are such that as soon as the heating is switched on the dump valve will remain shut. I apologise if you already know all this but it may help to resolve your problem. Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Hi Tony Yes it was cold, but not as severe as you, only -5. When i prepared to go away it was still below and i half filled the tank without any problem as i had checked that the valve was shut. It was only when i arrived on the camp site that i noticed the water tank was empty and wouldnt re-fill. I did check the valve and it was in the lifted position and double checked to make sure. I have emailed a few dealers to try and locate a schematic layout, i have also contacted Burstner direct in Germany and they suggested that this is what i should be looking for and hopefully some of them should manage to find one. Thanks for all your help ps the wife has just text me to say she has found the hatch below the table so things look promising on that front Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike H Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Alan. With a bit of luck your wife will have it all sorted for you by the time you get home. Good luck. Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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