Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi, What is the situation regarding travelling with our kids in the back of the MH when there are no forward facing seats and no seatbelts? Even if it is not law for them, to wear one. Is this considered safe? Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandyAndy Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 All I can say is sit down and put your own seatbelts on and prepare for a bumpy ride with this question!! I think the majority would say in theory at no time should you carry your children without seat belts as they become misiles around the van in times of accidents and any hard breaking you may need to do. There will be more ------------------ you have been warned :-D Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Mandy&Andy - 2009-01-27 3:23 PM All I can say is sit down and put your own seatbelts on and prepare for a bumpy ride with this question!! I think the majority would say in theory at no time should you carry your children without seat belts as they become misiles around the van in times of accidents and any hard breaking you may need to do. There will be more ------------------ you have been warned :-D Mandy That's the beauty of Forums (or is it Fora?) - You get folks honest opinion. If they need them - and the MH does'nt have them - is there an aftermarket system ? CHEERS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi Ian n Suzy We had reason to travel in the back of our campervan a short while ago and without the seat belts I would have felt very insecure, as the camper body is higher and rolls a lot more than a car. Apart from the normal safety aspect, as has already been commented on, it would be most unsafe. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MandyAndy Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 A company called Towtal put in seatbelts but you have to have the correct fittings for them to be attached to. Google will find them for you. Mandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi Ian and Suzi. Unless you have been in a high-energy road collision it is impossible to understand the degree of violence to which your body will be subjected. Suffice to say it beggars belief. I would urge you not to carry the children in the vehicle until you have seat belts professionally installed. No matter how good a driver is at the wheel of your vehicle, cirumstances or other drivers can strike at you in situations you are powerless to avoid. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Lunar Roadstar 786. Assuming it is as the current model, this has sideways facing rear seats. There is, as far as I know, no legal requirement at present for seat belts in the rear of motorhomes. Assuming yours has the side facing seats, I do not think seatbelts could be fitted, even if the attachments were present. Although there is no legal requirement at present for the belts, I believe the principle is that if belts are fitted, they must comply with current law. Current law, to the best of my knowledge, forbids belting sideways facing seats, as the belts are liable to inflict injury, rather than prevent it, in an accident.It is also the case that side facing seats are inherently more dangerous when used as passenger seats, than either forward, or rear facing, unbelted seats. Passengers are more liable to be dislodged from side facing seats than from either of the other options. A sudden swerve, or violent braking, would almost invariably result in the unbelted passengers being projected from their seats with little to no control over their trajectory.In a frontal collision there is an added risk to the belted front seat occupants from collision of a, literally, flying passenger with the rear of their seat, possibly with their head. Only you can decide whether you wish to impose these risks on children, but before you do, do seek advice from your insurer to clarify where you might stand. If the children you are contemplating carrying are not your own, I would say don't do this, since it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that you might be sued by the parents on behalf of their child, should severe injury result. The point is that these are all well known risks, which a child is not competent to judge. As adults, you would be judged competent, and so likely to be held responsible for the safety of the child/ren in your care.However, your question implies you already know most of this, so I'm probably just stating the obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GJH Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 See the DfT web site for advice on the law and the UK Motorhomes web site for general advice. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Mandy&Andy - 2009-01-27 3:23 PM All I can say is sit down and put your own seatbelts on and prepare for a bumpy ride with this question!! I think the majority would say in theory at no time should you carry your children without seat belts as they become misiles around the van in times of accidents and any hard breaking you may need to do. There will be more ------------------ you have been warned :-D Mandy I had to bite my lip when I first saw this post....... which came first the children or the van, if the former why did you buy a van totaly unsuitable for family travel *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-01-27 4:40 PM Mandy&Andy - 2009-01-27 3:23 PM All I can say is sit down and put your own seatbelts on and prepare for a bumpy ride with this question!! I think the majority would say in theory at no time should you carry your children without seat belts as they become misiles around the van in times of accidents and any hard breaking you may need to do. There will be more ------------------ you have been warned :-D Mandy I had to bite my lip when I first saw this post....... which came first the children or the van, if the former why did you buy a van totaly unsuitable for family travel *-) Thanks again to EVERYONE above for the posts. With regards to the last post, the children came first, but the "opportunity" arose to get this Motorhome in a deal with a Motorboat we had for sale, and when we went to look at the MH we loved it. I did ask the question regarding the rear seat belts and I suppose I "just took it" that they was'nt needed in the back as per the law - it is only with more thought I have started to worry about the safety of it. I find myself asking "What use is a 6 Berth MH that can only "safely" carry 2 passengers? A CONCERNED Ian & Suzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Relieved to see that you are “concerned” Your initial post seemed flippant but I now see that you are inexperienced.... probably now starting to realise that the “great deal” was not what it seemed. IMO if you value your children’s safety and your own (an unrestrained child could kill a front passenger in a collision) you need to sell the van or PX it for a suitable one. these kind of vans are popular with couples so may not be to bad a transaction. Sorry but dog needs restraining as well. .... an expensive learning curve... thats why its best to ask advice on forums first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi Ian and Suzy "What use is a 6 berth M/H that can only "safely" carry 2 passengers?" A question often raised by road testers in MMM for quite a few years and yet it still occurs with new designs every year. I'm really sorry but can only reierate what has been said in relation to carrying unbelted passengers in side facing seats - in fact, I have to stress that it does not take high energy impacts, violent braking or cornering to unseat someone on such seats. The forces generated in any change of direction are magnified and are also compounded by the weight of the object (child, adult, dog etc) during the manouvre. It doesn't mean you cannot use the van but you are going to have to be extra cautious with the kids on board. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-01-27 5:50 PM Relieved to see that you are “concerned” Your initial post seemed flippant but I now see that you are inexperienced.... probably now starting to realise that the “great deal” was not what it seemed. IMO if you value your children’s safety and your own (an unrestrained child could kill a front passenger in a collision) you need to sell the van or PX it for a suitable one. these kind of vans are popular with couples so may not be to bad a transaction. Sorry but dog needs restraining as well. .... an expensive learning curve... thats why its best to ask advice on forums first. I fully appreciate your comments - and I am not just "casting them aside" - But SURELY TO GOD there must be something that can be done to make it safe for them? Im flabbergasted if there isn't "something" available with so many of these so called 6 Berth MotorHomes out there. (footnote: If I was flippant I would'nt of raised my concerns in the form of a question on here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panagah Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 In response to Brian, I am sure that I heard/read somewhere that this year (or even last year) those Euro people had come up with the berth issue arround vans. Something along the lines of if it was classed as a 6 berth it must have 6 fitted travel seats. In answer to the poster? it's just not a good idea. I know plenty that do and have done so for years. I even bumped in to a couple that had inherited a van and used it with no rear belts (rear lounge model) the mother sat in the back holding a small child on journeys. Not my choice but hey ho. Fitting of rear belts can be done but If like Brian says you have a side facing seat then this might prove problematic, You may even only get a lap belt and TBH they are not worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 You can prevaricate all you want trying to justify what you have done, Hopefully, eventually you will realise you have made a dreadful mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Seeing as the MH is based on the Fiat Ducato, I am wondering: a) The possibility of removing the existing front seats and replacing them with one of the "bench type" seats in the front. b) If so, would this seat 2 adults and 2 children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-01-27 6:37 PM You can prevaricate all you want trying to justify what you have done, Hopefully, eventually you will realise you have made a dreadful mistake. You seem to have taken offence to my post for some reason - I have no idea why (unless I have misconstrued your post). Perhaps, you prefer the type of person who does'nt raise any concerns or post on here for help / info. Is it a dreadful mistake if nothing can be done - of course it is. We have a problem - I am trying to find a solution - How is that is a bad thing? How do I find out if anything can be done if I don't ask - if that makes me a liar, I have no idea how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 If seats and/or belts are fitted as you suggest, they would have to meet specified standards. The Fiat bodywork is absent, and so are the upper mounting points. If you look at the forward facing, belted, dinette seats fitted to many vans, you will see that they carry the belts on a built-in frame. The seat is then bolted through the floor with calculated reinforcement beneath. The solution has to be an engineering design, and few, if any will undertake that on a one-off basis, because they would become liable should it fail. You could try Lunar, to see if an alternative seat could be fitted, but the van would have to go back to the factory, and it isn't immediately clear where a table could be installed.If the dealer who sold the van knew you had children, he should have advised you of the desirability of belts. Ultimately, if the children are central to your holiday plans, you may have no option, for peace of mind, but to change the van for one with forward facing, belted, passenger seats. It is by no means certain that would be more expensive than trying to get approved belted seats installed into the one you now have. One off modifications of that kind are usually very expensive. Sorry to be the pessimist, but I really think you have a bit of a pig in a poke. I also think the dealer may have let you down badly, so I'd speak to them first, to see if a swap of any kind could be arranged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Ian_n_Suzy - 2009-01-27 6:39 PM Seeing as the MH is based on the Fiat Ducato, I am wondering: a) The possibility of removing the existing front seats and replacing them with one of the "bench type" seats in the front. b) If so, would this seat 2 adults and 2 children. You’re clutching at straws now...... A bench seat is normally for 3 only ( 1 driver and a double passenger seat) totally impractical in a motorhome as you lose the ability to walk through. And insurance could be problematic My intentions have never been to upset you just plain speaking that’s all. You will always get the “when I was a lad “comments, but road conditions are completely different these days. What year is the van? What’s so bad about a PX for the right van? may be easier to shift then the boat.......as said before these are popular vans with couples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Thanks to EVERYONE for the above posts - regardless of how I come across I can assure you all comments are welcomed. With regards to upsetting me, I am 100% not upset. Not now. Not earlier (other than having my pet dog of 13 years put down last night, but thats a different matter). And yes, I may well be clutching at straws. But we both bloody love the looks and internal setup of this MH and swapping it would be a last resort (hence the clutching at straws). I would at least like to try this one for a short while to see if this Motorhome'ing is for us, rather than swap it only to find I hate the whole "Motorhome'ing thing. But safety is a concern. And yes, some folks (myself included) may think "Well, there are no seat belts on Buses / Coaches, and i'll drive carefully, and others have been doing it for years, and it's within the law, and they didn;t even need seat belt in cars till recently.....and.........etc , etc , etc. They my kids and I want them to be safe. Ultimately, I am asking the question because it does worry me - it worrys me alot - and I am trying to "make the best of a bad situation" (though by bad situation I would still do the same deal tommorrow. Even with hindsight). I think it is becoming obvious from yours, and Brian's replies that there is no "Magic Wand Solution". I am annoyed that something can be deemed 6 Berth, yet not be worth a Brass Razoo when it comes to using it for 6 people. THANKS AGAIN. edit: It's a 2004 and no dealers were involved (private deal). Edit2: Dressing them in this would be really clutching at straws - http://www.totallybouncy.com/images/totally-bouncy-junior_sumo.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Ian and Suzy I do feel sorry for you in your dilema :-S but unless you can get childseats fitted somehow, forward facing, and seatbelts anchored, through the floor! Dont chance it with your children! I was thrown out of the side seat when O.H had to stop suddenly for a dog that ran infront of us and I did hurt my head I was thrown into the side of a cupboard! we were only moving a few hundred yards so stayed sat in the back. It wouldnt hurt to have a word with a Dealer and see what he can do for you. Im sorry about your little dog I lost one at 13 and I know what a loss it is. I hope you manage to sort something out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Hi Maggy, Thanks for the reply (and the kind words re my dog). I do plan on ringing Lunar tommorrow as the latest 786 seems to have 3 passenger seats with 3 point belts (scroll to the very bottom of the page if interested) - http://www.pandpcampers.com/Lunar/Star/starspecs.htm It's certainly worth a phone call. CHEERS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maggyd Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 It doesnt say what year those specs are for does it ? but it does say 3 designated seat belts!! My advice is go to a Lunar Dealer and see what he says! if he cant help with your van he could give you a good deal on a better one with seat belts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Ian_n_Suzy - 2009-01-27 10:38 PM Hi Maggy, Thanks for the reply (and the kind words re my dog). I do plan on ringing Lunar tommorrow as the latest 786 seems to have 3 passenger seats with 3 point belts (scroll to the very bottom of the page if interested) - http://www.pandpcampers.com/Lunar/Star/starspecs.htm It's certainly worth a phone call. CHEERS lately these style of vans have started appearing with a forward facing seat on both sides presumably with 3 point belts. the seat can be converted back into a sofa very easily. But doyou really think a conversion even if possible be any cheaper then trading it in....I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 There are many others who buy their first motorhome and get it wrong. Take your time before jumping again but please do not think you can get away without restraining your children. If the worst happens, you could face a long life of remorse. If you have a car, consider using that for the children to 'follow the van'. It'll cost more in petrol but it will save you making another mistake. If you keep to local sites, the petrol costs won't be too bad. Over time, your children may be able to take it in turns travelling in the passenger seat of the motorhome (if they are old enough). Once you are sure motohoming is for you, then start looking for other solutions. The solutions will all cost more money. The time when you are using the car to follow the van will allow you time to think what you really need from a motorhome. We motorhomed for 10 years with our children in nothing longer than 6.2m. Getting it wrong once is not unusual, getting it wrong twice is. Read the motorhome magazines, keep in touch through the forums, build your knowledge by talking to other motorhomers and if motohoming is for you, then the future will be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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