colin Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Ian_n_Suzy - 2009-01-27 10:38 PM Hi Maggy, Thanks for the reply (and the kind words re my dog). I do plan on ringing Lunar tommorrow as the latest 786 seems to have 3 passenger seats with 3 point belts (scroll to the very bottom of the page if interested) - http://www.pandpcampers.com/Lunar/Star/starspecs.htm It's certainly worth a phone call. CHEERS I don't think I posted on your first thread, so may I say welcome to the wonderfull world of motorhoming :-S If you look more carefully at that link you will see the 786 with side facing seats has just the one passenger seat with belt, the 786HD with forward facing seats has three passenger seats with belts. We have only two belted seats and occasionaly travel with one child, but in our case the child sits in front belted seat and non driving adult (or two) sits in rear behind a bulkhead. p.s. this is why I allways advise total newcomers to hire first, so that they can find out what works for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ian n Suzy The second post on this thread suggested that you will receive some very straight talking when asking important questions and safety in particular. Most replies are very genuine. Most have been through the same problems. Most will say try before you buy and do your research very thoroughly. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Swift Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I think this highlights a problem when browsing the adverts of M/H for sale. Ian and Suzy must like most parents want to keep the children safe, yet MOST ADS IN MMM DONT SAY HOW MANY BELTED SEATS THERE ARE WHICH for me would instantly include or discount a van from consideration. There a few exceptiosn to this, but not many. Manufacturers must be reducing the potential usefullness of a van by not having a match between berths and seatbelts. I mean , it's like playing Russian Roulette, who gets the belted seats? ...and whilst I might drive carefully to avoid an accident (am I ever driving uncarefully to perhaps allow one to happen??) it doesn't take account the ability of other road users. When browsing a M/H dealers forecourt it then becomes very easy to discount vans due to lack of seatbelt provision. There is less choice than you might think. ...and the fiat minibus that collects the children for school has to have seatbelts for them all....the need for securing children in a moving vehicle cannot be questioned surely? I agree with Ian and Suzy, more belts please Safe and Secure Ned :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ian: This earlier posting may be useful: http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14322&posts=10 UK regulations are pretty easy-going regarding alterations that can be made to a vehicle - that's why we have a thriving kit-car market. My understanding is that, even if there is no UK legal requirement for a safety-belt to be fitted to a particular seat in a vehicle, if a belt IS fitted then its installation and effective operation will be assessed during the MOT test. As long as the belts function properly and the tester considers the installation to be adequately engineered the vehicle will pass the test. I'm sure it would be possible to modify your motorhome's layout to include belted rear-seating that would be acceptable at MOT-test time, but I've no idea who would be prepared to design and implement the installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Jones Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ned Swift - 2009-01-28 8:30 AM When browsing a M/H dealers forecourt it then becomes very easy to discount vans due to lack of seatbelt provision. There is less choice than you might think. Too right Ned! When we starting looking for our current van, we were only looking at van conversions as we wanted it to be our "car" as well. For the same reason, although we only needed the two berths, we wanted a four-seater for everyday use. Now it should be easier to fit enough belts in a van conversion than in a coachbuilt - after all, it has the same shell as a minibus from the same stable - but in the end we could only find TWO marques which did models with four belted seats. And our search included several alleged 4-berth vans as well! There's a perception that only older couples use motorhomes or campervans. Nonsense of course - we took our kids away in vans for years - and even if it were true, I'm told that some older couples have little things called grandchildren! I'll certainly sign up for the "Fit more seatbelts" campaign! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usinmyknaus Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 A Google search revealed this company which offers customised installations for motorhomes. www.securon.co.uk Not used them myself but worth a call pehaps and a bit more Googling for other possibilities? Good luck with the search. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnP Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 This wasn't a high speed accident. In this instance the fridge,kitchen, lower cupboards all moved forwards. The fridge was out of its housing blocking the habitation door. The two occupants, who were wearing seatbelts, were shook up, but OK, with just a few scratches and bruises. I was following this motorhome. It happened on a quiet but wide road. Someone coming round a bend in the other direction lost control of their small car. Both vehicles were written off. I saw the same accident scenario two days later where another small car had done the same thing, but this time into an horse-box type vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Swift Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Oh my! John you can't leave it at that??? What happened, was everyone ok?? What did you hit and is that a write-off?? Ned 8-) Thanks for the update. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmbeedee Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Erm, Ned, it pays to read the post fully before replying (!) (!) (!) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Swift Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Yes thanks I do know that. John just edited his original post after reading my reply and so it looks like I haven't read it. But his edit added the extra detail in which my post had asked for. Cor blimy, you can just apologise or send me your M/H instead >:-) >:-) Ned's right U Know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Just a couple of points that have not been raised but are relevant to the discussion. There have been several mentions of side and frontal collision and sitting in seats with high backrests but no seatbelts. If the seats are rear facing then they may just be OK in a frontal collision but what if the collision is a vehicle running into the rear of your vehicle at speed. The effect on those in the seats will be virtually identical to the effect of people sitting in forward facing seats without seatbelts in a forward collision. The other issue is concerned with children or small adults sitting in belted seats where their feet do not touch the floor. I have experience of this where a friend was sitting in my van in a single rear forward facing travel seat wearing a seatbelt, there was no grab handle. She is 5' 2" tall and her feet did not reach the floor. She was unable to brace herself when going round a corner and at the first "fast" left hand corner, at approx 35 mph, fell sideways out of the seat to the right and ended up suspended in the belt with her head and shoulders resting on the floor. No damage but what would have happened in a serious side collision. Since then I have always ensured that there is a grab handle for each seat and a firmly fixed footrest in place. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 I don't know how to say this gently, but you really do have the wrong van. You have written of visiting Spain with your children. That, probably, means also crossing France. In turn, this implies longish journeys on hot days. What do children do during long journeys on hot days, after the boredom and quarrelling, that is? Mostly, ours went to sleep. Unrestrained sleeping, children behind you. What happens when you round a bend, approach a roundabout, or if you need to slow suddenly because an artic' has pulled into the middle lane just in front of you. Can you react quickly and safely if, in the back of your mind, is the sudden realisation that the children have gone very quiet, and are probably lolling around fast asleep? That doubt will dog all your travel, just adding to your stress levels and leaving you permanently anxious.It is a great pity you have fallen hook, line, and sinker, for the van; but ultimately, a van is just a van. There are thousands, literally, of others around, and one with two belted, forward facing, passenger seats in the rear is what you want. Your van is, in reality a two berth, with a luton for added storage, and a convertible dinette/bed because Lunar started off making caravans, and that is what caravans have. Undoubtedly it looks nice, but you don't live in, or drive, nice looks - you look at them. This thing is your home and your transport while you are in it. For two, it offers space and comfort. For more than two it is not practical, and could be the source of lifelong remorse and heartbreak. Imagine if the crunch pictured above involved your family in your van. The van will have stopped more or less on impact. Any unrestrained passengers would continue moving forward, at whatever speed the van was doing prior to impact, until they hit something that stops them. What that something might be, and what effect it might have on the flying passengers, will depend purely on chance.I know I'm saying everything you don't want to hear, but I really think you need to start looking for a replacement van with four berths, and four belted seats. You've only had this one for 7 days, and you bought privately, so if you bought at a good price you should get a fair trade in in today's market. Just don't let on to the dealer that it's a "distress" sale - at least not until well after you've done the deal, and paid the deposit. :-)Similar layouts to the one you have are available with the forward end of the side facing dinette seats demountable, so that passengers can sit facing forward, and use the normal, three point, seat belts that are installed at the rear of the dinette seats. However, these are fairly recent developments, so trying to replicate what you have may introduce more problems that it solves. I think you need a sharp, concentrated, period of motorhome research to sort out what might be suitable within your budget, and whether it is available. Disappointing, expensive, depressing, and very annoying, but I think the only route to peace of mind. Then, when you sort out the makes and models that seem to fit the bill, come on here and see if anyone can offer help before you rush off to start bargaining. My opinion, I accept, and easier for me to say than for you to do, but if you don't bite the proverbial bullet now I really think you'll come to regret it later. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J9withdogs Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Mike Chapman - 2009-01-28 1:59 PM The other issue is concerned with children or small adults sitting in belted seats where their feet do not touch the floor. I have experience of this where a friend was sitting in my van in a single rear forward facing travel seat wearing a seatbelt, there was no grab handle. She is 5' 2" tall and her feet did not reach the floor. She was unable to brace herself when going round a corner and at the first "fast" left hand corner, at approx 35 mph, fell sideways out of the seat to the right and ended up suspended in the belt with her head and shoulders resting on the floor. No damage but what would have happened in a serious side collision. Since then I have always ensured that there is a grab handle for each seat and a firmly fixed footrest in place. Regards, Mike. This also happened in my van, but with a properly-fitted child seat. The front facing belted seat is next to the aisle and the child managed to hurl itself sideways off the seat. Luckily the vehicle was stationary. We were all sat in the back eating at the time and managed to catch him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_n_Suzy Posted January 28, 2009 Author Share Posted January 28, 2009 Thanks again to ALL who have contributed above - special THANKS to Brian for your post. We now have lots to think about decisions to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmbeedee Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Ned Swift - 2009-01-28 12:19 PM Yes thanks I do know that. John just edited his original post after reading my reply and so it looks like I haven't read it. But his edit added the extra detail in which my post had asked for. Cor blimy, you can just apologise or send me your M/H instead >:-) >:-) Ned's right U Know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmbeedee Posted January 28, 2009 Share Posted January 28, 2009 Gee, sorry Ned, I didn't realise that Johns edit had answered your questions (!) :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo3090 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Everyone is absolutely correct in the seatbelts need fixing in vans by the builders when they convert, but the thing we all need to remember is we are driving around in a vehicle that the majority of the rear is a thin plywood veneer with polystyrene filling and another very thin piece of either fibreglass or aluminium sheeting. None of which is going to stop a high speed vehicle anything larger than a Smart Car from ending up behind the driver anyway! Motorhomes are not crash tested or subjected to any impact testing on the habitation end of the vehicle. I'm not trying to be flippant here, just pointing out that there is an inherant weakness in the vehicle in the first place, from a high speed crash. There was a crash on the M62 near Warrington last year where a taxi, not exceeding the speed limit, virtually demolished the back end of the van as far as the habitaion door. I am not sure what happened to the vans occupants but the poor taxi driver was killed. If it had been a truck it would have gone right to the cab, no doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hello Stephen, You make a very good and relevant point about the strength of coachbuilt motor caravans. Van conversions are stronger but once again they are just basically a metal shell which can easily be penetrated in an accident. I have often thought that what is required for the safety of the occupants is some form of strong braced structure similar to a roll cage which would limit the damage. The problem I see in implementing this is the extra weight of the structure on vehicles that are already close to maximum weight with a reasonable payload. Most coachbuilders are already leaving out a spare wheel to get the weight down to an acceptable level. There are other issues related to safety testing and the implementation of additional airbag systems all of which add signigficant cost. Would purchasers be willing to pay for additional safety? Surveys done previously indicate that a majority will pay extra for style (eg. Alloy wheels)but not extra safety. Regards, Mike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 1) Thirty mph may not seem very fast, but consider this: an easy way to approximate the force of a crash is to multiply the weight of your body by the speed of the car. Thus, it would take 3,900 pounds of force to keep a 130 lb adult from moving forward in a 30 mph crash. 15 mph + 15 mph is the speed two cars might collide in a car park. Not that fast then ? 2) Dody and Diana might still be with us if they had worn thier seat belts. Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 And my 17 year old nephew ... :-| Ian and Suzy - I do hope that you managed to get something sorted and that you don't take the risk of driving with your children in your current motorhome, it really isn't worth it. If you are still considering doing this as an option though, just ask yourself one question: how would you feel if you took them out without suitable restraints and had an accident where they were injured or killed ... could you really live with yourself? Have you considered trying to see if someone is looking for a van of your type where you could do an exchange to keep the cost down? Alternatively, sell your van and then buy another more suitable, you don't necessarily have to spend more than your original van (boat) cost you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 In other words, all our "Marvelous" "Wonderfull" "Dream vehicles" are only good for keeping the rain off and sheltering us from the wind. They are in fact just one step up from a tent when on the road !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Steady on libby, they don't all keep the rain off! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 libby - 2009-01-29 5:40 PM In other words, all our "Marvelous" "Wonderfull" "Dream vehicles" are only good for keeping the rain off and sheltering us from the wind. They are in fact just one step up from a tent when on the road !! If it's coachbuilt thats about right, I would never argue against having seat belts, but it amazes me how evengelical people get about belts in back of a coachbuilt, if anyone was that worried they shouldn't be carrying passengers in the back of the vehicle equivilent of an eggshell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 OTOHand Motorbikes dont have seat belts. :D Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 colin - 2009-01-29 7:12 PM If it's coachbuilt thats about right, I would never argue against having seat belts, but it amazes me how evangelical people get about belts in back of a coachbuilt, if anyone was that worried they shouldn't be carrying passengers in the back of the vehicle equivalent of an eggshell! I wouldn't wish to overstate the advantages of being belted up inside an egg, but seatbelts are beneficial in far more situations than rear enders (where proper head restraints are probably of more value) or side impacts, where the fragile nature of coachbuilts might become a factor.Minor shunts can shoot the inattentive out of their seats, with unpredictable results. Anyone who is drowsy, or asleep, while unbelted is especially vulnerable, even to sharp braking, or a sudden swerve to avoid that dog. Besides which, by far the most common vehicle impact is three quarters frontal on the driver's side, of which the photos above provide a classic example. No visible damage to the coachbuilt there, but anyone unbelted in rear seats would have been in real trouble, whereas anyone belted could be reasonably expected to walk away unscathed, or nearly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.