deryck the decorator Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 We are new to this game and last aug purchased a autotrail scout 2005 2.8 Ltr 5 speed i have only reversed once with alarming judder. I had the van in last week for a test drive with the tech forman the van juddered slightly on steep hill he said thought it was the cluch on the way out ? only way was to strip down if it was wear and tear warrentry won't cover it he also say's the judder prob is not on the early fiat only on the new ones? can anyone veryfi this. many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 while waiting for an expert reply.......the epedimic amount of postings re judder is on the new chassis not yours. Get a second opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Welcome to the forum, Deryck. There have been a couple of recent-ish letters in MMM magazine's "Interchange" section referring to clutch problems with motorhomes based on the previous model (non-X250) Fiat chassis. The letter in MMM November 2008 mentioned a "very pungent smell of burning clutch" when reversing a 52-plate 30K-mileage motorhome with Fiat 2.8JTD motor uphill and asked "Are you aware of any similar reports of problems on older Fiats". The reply was: "In a word No. We do have quite a few people with issues of clutch judder on the current models, but the Interchange mailbag has been refreshingly free from clutch issues on older vehicles. It could simply be that the clutch on your vehicle is a little tired and that reversing it up the gradient simply finished it off. Even with such a low mileage, the clutch could be worn - especially if the previous owners did a lot of stop-start or town driving. Clutches are a consumable item." As JudgeMental advises, it would be worth getting a second opinion if you can. But the chances are that the technical foreman was correct (particularly if there is any sign of clutch roughness/vibration/slippage when you begin to move off forwards on a slope as well as when reversing) and that your Scout's clutch will require replacing to effect a cure. If a clutch needs renewing due simply to wear-and-tear, then (as the foreman warned) this won't normally be covered under warranty. If a clutch-related problem can be traced to a 'manufacturing fault' (say, one of the clutch-springs had broken), then a warranty might cover this. It would depend on the exact terms of the warranty and the diagnosis when the old clutch had been removed for inspection. There's no way of predicting the life-span of a clutch and some do give up early. Unfortunately, when a clutch shows sickness symptoms it rarely, if ever, recovers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brom Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Interesting, that the question of judder on older Fiats has come up. we (briefly) owned an second-hand, old-type Tribute on the LWB 2.3 litre Ducato. We got rid primarily because the bed was appallingly lumpy and uncomfortable. However, that was a '54' plate, and had done just 6000 miles, so I don't see how the clutch could have been worn. We live on a hill, and found it almost impossible to reverse up into our drive - it juddered horribly and stank of burnt cheese! Mechanical sympathy meant we had to desist, and we arranged it so that we always went in forwards. No-one had ever mentioned this problem, so we just worked round what we thought was a bad bit of design. When we tested the first new-type Ducato 100, and found it would reverse uphill, we were very happy! In retrospect, we wonder whether Fiats had just started using DM flywheels when they built our Tribute, or whether there is any carry-over of gearbox design/engine mountings into the new model. We also wonder whether the problem was made worse by having to turn 90 degrees off the road into our drive while reversing steeply - that was certainly the impression. Brom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Chapman Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hello Deryck, The clutch judder problem, affectionately known as "Juddergate" on the forums, relates to the newer Fiat model X250 Ducato and Peugeot and Citroen versions. There have been some reports of judder on previous models but this does not appear to be a fault with the range but more with a few individual vehicles. On the earlier models there was an issue with 5th Gear failure but this was resolved before your 2005 model was manufactured. What concerns me with the problem you have is that as far as the information given goes the clutch problem only manifests itself in reverse? If the clutch is on the way out I would have thought that most likely this would also be noticed in forward gears. The problem could be clutch but it may be worth getting a second opinion perhaps having the engine mountings etc., checked. Regards, Mike. Ooops! I should have read Derek Uzzell reply first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deryck the decorator Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 many thanks for your helpful replies I will get a 2nd opinion the technicianalso said that he thought because there was no judder or slip going forward failure was a long way off ? and would like to see van later on in the year. I said t would be out of dealers ins backed warrenty and would prefer it to be sorted before then hence the stripping down and getting accesor down from ins warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've been desperately hoping that this subject would not raise its ugly head with regards to the old model until the problems with the new one were resolved. But in the course of the ongoing dispute with Fiat several owners of the old 2.3 litre and 2.8 litre models have complained about similar symptoms in their vehicles. And the bigger they were the worse it seemed to be. I haven' t done any exhaustive research into this one (as I already have my hands full) but it seems that if you look at the spec for the old models you will find that for the 2.3 and 2.8 versions the reverse gear is a higher ratio than 1st. The 5 speed box on the new models is the same as the older model and with Fiat gearing up the new 2.2 model on the 5 speed ones to a level similar to the old 2.3 and 2.8 models the problem has re-occurred in the latest 2.2 litre vans. The 2.2 and 2 litre models had a lower final drive ratio so the gear ratio problem wasn't as significant on those. It looks like Fiat may have got away with it on the old model, but taken it just one step too far with the present 6 speed vans, and hey presto - chaos. Ask me if I'll ever buy another Fiat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hey Andy - will you ever buy another Fiat? Whoa ......... steady now! :-D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 George Collings in a recent "Interchange" article mentioned the reverse-gear ratio on a pre-X250 2.8litre-engined Ducato being some 10% higher than its 1st-gear ratio. A dual-mass flywheel (DMF)/clutch assembly was introduced for the present Boxer/Ducato/Relay ranges. Before that the flywheel/clutch assembly was the traditional (and cheaper) 'solid' type. I doubt that engine-mountings were carried over from the outgoing to the current range, but it might be possible to confirm this by checking part numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Just for the record, the "Interchange" entry in which George Collings refers to reverse-gear on the 'old' 2.8litre Ducato being 10% higher than 1st-gear was on Pages 205/206 of MMM October 2008. The motorhome with the problem was a 2005 Auto-Trail Arapaho on a 4500kg chassis and with a mileage of 8500. When the vehicle had to be reversed up a 1-in-5 (that's 20%) hill juddering occurred, the clutch began to slip and drive was lost. The clutch replacement cost was stated as £500-plus and not covered under warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Hello all, We have had some experience of juddering on pre-x250 Fiats and similar situations have occurred on pre-2000 2.8 vans and also post 2002 vans with 2.3 or 2.8 engines. We have several times had a clutch wear out, and subsequently when testing a new clutch have experienced a really bad judder. As a precautionary measure we now always send the flywheel to be skimmed before re-fitting the gearbox. This has always cured the problem so we feel it is cheaper than taking the box off twice. Skimming can be carried out by an engineering firm and usually costs between £50 and £70. We have also noticed that when a vehicle is not used for an extended period of time, and particularly if the last time it was used it was during damp weather this can also have a significant effect on the clutch later on. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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