Neil Hunt Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Does anyone have any experience of driving with the comfort-matic gearbox which seems to have missed the judder problem? This would be a very expensive workaround for avoiding the problem but would it leave you with other issues at a greater cost? The alternatives to the Fiat are not there for me. The Ford van is either too short or too long for my purpose and the VW Crafter and Merc Sprinter too expensive. I know I can wait but it seems forever that this has been going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 Do you really think you should be giving your money to Fiat? This company have proved that when things go wrong they have no scruples whatsoever. The other consideration is that the 'judder' isn't really the main issue with the 3 litre vans though many are displaying it. All the damage to the 3 litre vans thus far have been clutch problems and the small number of auto models have not yet been used for long enough to be proven to be fault free. If there is a fault further down the road don't expect Fiat to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 I originally ordered one, but cancelled the order, the comfortmatic is a bit of a unknown product. If a problem occurs will Fiat support you, rmeber, this is a robotic gearbox with a clutch, as you know the clutch is NOT guarnteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric 83 Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 the comfortmatic box is not really an unknown thing they tried it on the small cars ,ciccento ,seicento etc they were crap god knows what they will be like with 3.5 ton behind them. with the cars being small it was easy to put a clutch arm and everything else on to make them ok but they did damage gear cogs.i realize that they are not exactly the same but i would not have one given as it seems there so called best ever made for motorhomes vans dont work! 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted February 13, 2009 Share Posted February 13, 2009 FIAT do not have a good track record even before the present transmission fiasco. Many of us will have had problems with fifth gear on earlier vintage. My own experience being failure within a month of warranty expiry, to cut a long story short, FIAT were unaware of a problem and gave no help whatsoever, even to the extent of telling me there was nobody able to look at the faulty gears and tell if they were faulty. The only saving grace was that I got it fixed in Spain at 2/3rds the UK cost. Never again would L buy Fiat. Stuart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Neil May 2008 MMM magazine included an article by Dave Hurrell (page 219) giving driving impressions of a Swift Kon-Tiki with Fiat Comfort-Matic gearbox. Forum-member Nick Fisher (euroserv) has hands-on experience of vehicles with this gearbox and, as far as I'm aware, is keen on it. Comfort-Matic's suggested immunity to 'judder' or its long-term reliability are anybody's guess. As the auto and manual gearboxes are apparently identical, other than the former using 'electronics' to shift gears and the latter involving human hands/feet, one might anticipate that problems with current 3-litre powered Fiat Ducatos may reveal themselves on vehicles with Comfort-Matic. That they seem not to have so far, doesn't mean they won't in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Hello all, I completely agree with Derek. There is absolutely no techincal reason for the comfort-matic gearbox to be any less prone to the judder problem than the manual because it's internals including the gear ratios are identical. In practice so far it performs all tasks with the same relentless efficiency as it's manual brothers. Many of our 2.3 6 speed vans made all kinds of whining noises and occasional judders in reverse from new, but none of the 3.0 versions have exhibited any of these traits. Please bear in mind that these are all the Maxi versions and I cannot comment on any lighter 3.0 versions because we don't have any, and the final drive ratios are different. Iveco, which as you probably all know is part of the Fiat group has been building the 'Agile' gearbox since 2004 and while there have been many reports of difficulty in making gentle progress on damp grass in reverse, it is now well proven and I understand it to be reliable. The Comfort-matic is the 'next generation' of the same gearbox albeit for front wheel drive. We took delivery of one of, if not the first right hand drive Comfort-matics built last April and have had no issues whatsoever apart from the extremely confusing user manual. We remain confident that this system is the 'holy grail' for a van rental fleet in that it effectively will eradicate premature clutch, engine and gearbox wear through negligence or abuse. We intend to run this vehicle for another 9 months before adopting it as the standard for our long term fleet. I am monitoring progress with engine mounts and any gearbox mods that are allegedly being put into production and as of this date I have seen no evidence that there have been any changes whatsoever to current production. I will share any information that I can obtain as soon as I can with the forum. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 There is one key difference that might affect judder between the comfortmatic and a manual clutch - the clutch hyraulics rubber hose pipe linking to the engine. On the comfortmatc any movement affecting the pipe will not matter, but on the Manual clutch it could lead to pressure changes in the hyraulic system affecting the clutch pressure. I am led to believe Fiat have it on their list as one of the possible componets to change if Engine mounts fail to resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 If Comfort-matic is able to suppress transmission harshness when reversing, I would guess this is because there is no driver's foot on the clutch pedal rather than there being variations in hydraulic pressure between manual and automatic clutch-operating systems. As far as starting from rest is concerned, the automated system should optimise the match between load, throttle-opening and clutch engagement. With a heavy, high reverse-ratio Ducato-based motorhome with manual gearbox, starting and reversing slowly up a steep incline without risking clutch damage will be a real challenge for the most skilful of drivers. It's not something people practice and, if you get the load/throttle/clutch match even mildly wrong, a burnt-out clutch is a near-certainty. Even if Comfort-Matic is able to perform much better than a human when reversing on hills, as long as the reverse-gear ratio remains unnecessarily high the risk of clutch damage will be ever-present. Comfort-Matic may be fine going backwards up average inclines, but I'd be interested to see what happened if (say) a well-loaded 5000kg MTPLM Auto-Trail Cheyenne with auto-box were asked to start and inch its way backwards up the 1-in-5 slope that's regularly suggested as a 'test hill' on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Hunt Posted February 15, 2009 Author Share Posted February 15, 2009 Thank you for the helpful and informative replies from everyone. It is impossible to make an informed choice when, for example, Which Motocaravan makes the Fiat Comfort-Matic Ducato its base vehicle of the year and converters and manufacturers continue to use the Fiat stable against the contrasting views and experience of so many Ducato based customers. Given that making a once in in lifetime purchase is of a different order to buying a new flat iron or TV what can you do in these circumstances. I sympathise with Andy Stothert's point about the perceived appalling customer care from Fiat and would also rage at a product that fails to perform essential functions but I also wonder whether any other large manufacturer would behave any differently had they produced a significant 'lemon', think of Ford and the Pinto episode from years ago. Maybe it will take the actual experiences of 'uncommitted' third party users like Nick's to give a statistically accurate enough picture. What is so disappointing is that a van like the Ducato which has so much else going for it as a base for a panel van conversion to have such a significant fault line running through it. Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benson Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Hi everyone with the "judder" box! being new to motorhomes I rather nievely bought the layout that suited us and only after subscribing to MMM and seing the fuss about the Fiat box realised there was a problem. Following the advice in both MMM and the Caravan Club magazine recently I contacted my local Fiat dealer, They told me that contrary to what I had read in any publication Fiat DO NOT have a solution to the problem!!! Can ANYONE relate that they have had any success at all with this long lasting problem. Do Fiat really care, or are they quite happy to muddle along taking our quite substantial amounts of cash knowing that they have more or less cornered the market with the support of UK body manufacturers such as Swift. My own personal experience was when I got the van home after collection from the dealer. I tried reversing up my drive which is on a very slight slope and had burning/judder from the clutch so much so that I reverted to driving up forwards to park it. Having reversed caravans for nearly 30 years with various types of vehicle, I have never had any problem with gearboxes/clutch before and I would suggest that this puts more strain on the gearbox than a single unit such as a motorhome. Any feedback on if you have had success in this area would be appreciated. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 eric 83 - 2009-02-13 1:53 PM but i would not have one given as it seems there so called best ever made for motorhomes vans dont work! 8-) Eric, don't know if you've seen some of my posts but I'm not currently a MH owner. I'm trying to get my head around all the Fiat issues seeing as about 75% of all MH's seem to be on Fiat chassis. I'm not a fan either since I'm old enough to remember in the 80's all the rust problems, more recently there was the 5th. gear problem, and now there seems to be pages and pages written about the judder or is it the clutch. I've had good service from Citroen over the years but am now worried that they are all tied in together and have just stared a new thread looking for some clarification on that whole joint venture thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Neil Hunt - 2009-02-15 12:39 PM Given that making a once in in lifetime purchase is of a different order to buying a new flat iron or TV what can you do in these circumstances. Neil, that is exactly the position I find myself in now!! I started looking back in Nov. and was prepared to pay about 40 - 50K which for me is quite an investment. I found a few people who offered the alternative of VW or Mercedes but when I asked about delivery I was told that if I ordered today then delivery to me would be around October.To be honest I'm being pushed to the second hand market, a diesel Merc. or VW with 10,000 on the clock is hardly run in and both the price and delivery are a big plus for me. OK I may have to compromise on the layout a bit but that seems to be the way I'm heading right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Nick (Euroserve), Am asking you this question as you are knowledeable of the clutch etc and have access to latest parts list. Does the latest clutch use a direct acting Slave Cylinder/combined thrust bearing on the Clutch pressure plate(fingers) or use a lever, thrust bearing and 'remote' cylinder? Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Losos - 2009-02-15 12:44 PM Neil Hunt - 2009-02-15 12:39 PM Given that making a once in in lifetime purchase is of a different order to buying a new flat iron or TV what can you do in these circumstances. Neil, that is exactly the position I find myself in now!! I started looking back in Nov. and was prepared to pay about 40 - 50K which for me is quite an investment. I found a few people who offered the alternative of VW or Mercedes but when I asked about delivery I was told that if I ordered today then delivery to me would be around October.To be honest I'm being pushed to the second hand market, a diesel Merc. or VW with 10,000 on the clock is hardly run in and both the price and delivery are a big plus for me. OK I may have to compromise on the layout a bit but that seems to be the way I'm heading right now. However, Mercedes/VW are not your only alternative at that price level. Many vans on the new Transit, and also on the Renault Master. Both good vans.Re the joint venture, it lives in Italy and manufactures the Ducato/Boxer/Jumper clones. Some of the Peugeot/Citroen (PSA) engines are identical with Fiats, another is a joint venture with Ford (Puma). The Fiat engines tend to be of SOFIM manufacture, and are good engines. The problem with the judder lies somewhere between the engine mountings and the dual mass flywheel shock absorber spring ratings, coupled to high overall gearing. Neither Fiat nor PSA has yet definitively cured the problem, which appears to afflict the lighter chassis vehicles with higher overall gearing and smaller engines, more than it does the 3.0 litre "maxi" chassis versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Dear Brambles, The X250 gearboxes all use the combined release bearing and slave cylinder. The previous 2002-2006 vehicles all had a remote slave cylinder, and none of these used a dual mass flywheel which is, in my opinion, the most absurd piece of automotive engineering in history. Can't blame Fiat for that though, it was the likes of Valeo, Motorcraft and Mercedes for pushing every new vehicle in that direction. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted February 15, 2009 Share Posted February 15, 2009 Thanks Nick. Remembered the proper name now - concentric slave cylinder, I agree quite an absurd piece of engineeriing and one more expensive item to replace every time clutch is renewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest johnllewellyn94 Posted March 24, 2009 Share Posted March 24, 2009 have you though of the ldv range i have got one and would not change it .my ldv is the 400 convoy no trouble at all and 183773 miles on the clock.i have driven the new ldv nice to drive and no judder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Hunt Posted March 24, 2009 Author Share Posted March 24, 2009 Hi John, I currently have an LDV 400 too, that was originally registered in Aug 94 and was a dealer's demonstrator with internal panelling and side windows. I've added a fixed bed and we've used it as a camper since acquiring it in 2000. It has still only done 64K but the body work is very poor and rusty in places and MOTs have got very costly over recent years. The main preference issue for me with the Sevel van is its dimensions, the difference in the perception of space between AutoSleeper's Duetto and Symbol (Ford and Peugeot respectively) width wise is considerable. I think Fiat did at least know what they were doing with their choice of width/height/length on offer. This makes little difference with a coachbuilt but is crucial for a panel conversion. Hence the current dilemma. I have not experienced the new LDV but we have had a lot of fun for a miserly outlay with our current one although it drives and rattles like a truck. Given the potential demise of the new company I'm not sure I would want to risk the new model although I did see the Barnes Group were offering them still and at a reasonable price. I am hoping to see something that will suit us at Peterborough but if not we will have to wait until there is some resolution to the gearbox farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I have just had the full monty fix on my X250 here in Spain below is a list from the garage of what was done and parts used. This list has been translated from Spanish so may not be 100% accurate. Description of work Replace Primary tree gear Replace bearings secondary gear Replace clutch set Replace engine mounts Replace clutch hydraulic tube Parts used Part Number Pinion 1/0071753295 Primary tree 1/0071753296 Sleeve 1/0071753297 Clutch set 1/0071753301 Flexible sleeve 1/0016209448 Connecting rod 1/0071753298 Support 1/0071753299 Support 1/0071753300 Bearing 1/9402372858 Cork ( seal)? 1/9646435280 Hydraulic Fluid DT4 1/102 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Colin, might it be a good move to post your "fix" list onto Andy's thread too? Hope your repair is a success. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 colin you do not say it has or has not worked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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