Meadows Engine Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Do you have Murvi Morello or perhaps an Autocruise Pace, AutoSleepers Symbol, IH Tio R, Trigano Tribute or similar, based on a Fiat Ducato and do you think you are driving a motorhome Well FIAT are emphatic you are not, you are driving a commercial vehicle and as such you are not entitled to all the benefits of a proper Fiat based Motorhome, such as Fiats three years Camper Assist. It matters not a jot that you paid £30-£50K for your pride and joy nor that you can buy motorhomes based on its chassis/cab for less money, no it’s a commercial vehicle and Fiat has chosen to discriminate against you. Perhaps I was being naive but I believed from Fiats adverts that their Camper Services was a benefit that applied to all their new X250 based motor homes, but it was not until after handover and I was reading through the supplied vehicle pack at home that I discovered it wasn’t! I don’t remember seeing any adverts by Fiat that state that they consider high top motorhomes as commercial vehicles (Second class motorhomes?) Why have Fiat done this? Regardless of which Fiat base is used, both are professionally built, fully equipped motorhomes registered from new with the DVLA as a motorhome and both should enjoy the same treatment from Fiat. Set against the trend to down size, encouraged perhaps by current credit situation, the high top motorhome is a recognised growth area and as such it seems an odd choice by Fiat to upset both existing and potential customers at this time. How do you feel about Fiats decision not to recognise your motorhome as such and so with hold the benefits bestowed on the others? Come on Fiat make this situation right or explain to us, your customers why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I dug out Fiat's January 2007 advertising leaflet "Fiat Ducato Motorhome" and notice that there is no reference in it to panel-vans. The leaflet also contains details of Fiat Camper Services and Fiat Camper Assistance that, presumably, only apply to motorhomes based on the various chassis referred to in the leaflet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 At least Fiat service to their owners are consistent, they seem intent on antagonising as many of their customers as possible, one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 OK Derek but even you have to "presume". It does not make it clear.They talk about assistance/services for Fiat Motorhomes i.e. a Motorhome constructed using a Fiat vehicle . Why differentiate both are Ducato based motorhomes from their registration dates, so why deny high top Ducato Motorhome owners the same assistance / services? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 The adverts specificaly relate to chassis cab, but, include the following quote "Different models are equipped with these and other optional features according to the requirements of the motorhome manufactures" some might conclude this relates to PVC's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Tell us what is on your V5 form following the 'Body type' question? You should have "Motor Caravan" and if so its a Motorhome under the DVLA ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 You are so right Libby, my Murvi Morello new Jan 09 is shown on the V5 as a Motor Caravan. Even the nice polite lady at Fiat Slough agreed that it was a Fiat Motorhome but said Fiat would only recognise it as a commercial vehicle and as such will not allow it to beifit from its camper assist services which are only for Motorhomes! For the life of me I can't think why, don't they want us to use thier Ducato's, do they feel that some how my Morello and simlar are second rate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 When I read this thread for the first time earlier this evening I thought, how odd for Fiat not to include over cab/hightop campers in this service......But never mind, Fiat being generally rubbish and rubbished from all quarters I was not unduly surprised. Now on review it is PVC type camper vans that are under discussion here. I can only think as they sell them as a complete commercial vehicle(not built on the "camper" base?) and not a dedicated camping chassis cab why they are taking this stance and acting in this way. Going by Fiats lamentable reluctance to do the right thing you will have an upward struggle me thinks *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I presume then when the High top is sold to whoever that's the end of their obligation, it's a commercial vehicle and do what you like with it, even use it as a garden shed. It seems to be again buyer beware and do your homework, but what's in the FIAT three year camper assist that makes it so exciting? Is it all down to peruading you to buy FIAT, I'm still not enticed. I did misread the original post regarding the DVLA. (its my age!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 This could be one of the reasons that people are having such a lot of trouble getting their gearboxes sorted out. Apparently Fiat don't know what a motorhome is. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 malc d - 2009-02-18 11:43 PM This could be one of the reasons that people are having such a lot of trouble getting their gearboxes sorted out. Apparently Fiat don't know what a motorhome is. :-( FIAT say we are aggressive, they don't care about much. What will there next excuse be for not sorting out the judder or honouring a warranty. 1. It is a commercial van 2. it is not built on the special motorhome chassis. 3. it is on the special motorhome chassis, but it is not big enough, only the big American style with pull out qualify. 4. There is not an R in the month. 5. Anythiing Else they can think of. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Meadows Engine As many, many 'motorhomes' based on Fiat Ducato X/250 panel-vans will have been built since 2006, it's odd that this issue hasn't (apparently) come up before. I wonder if only small-volume converters (like Murvi) - who will be buying 'commercial' Ducatos to work with - are affected, as opposed to larger companies (Hymer, Trigano, Auto-Sleepers, etc.) who order Ducato chassis-cabs from Fiat as well as panel vans. As the Fiat Camper Services product appears to link to the base-vehicle when it leaves the Fiat factory, there is some logic to panel-vans that are not known at that point to be specifically destined to become motorhomes to be excluded from the scheme. For example, if I bought a new Ducato panel-van, converted it myself and the DVLA agreed to register it as a "Motor Caravan", I would not expect it to become eligible for Fiat Camper Services retrospectively. Conversely, if I bought a new Auto-Trail Excel, Hymer Car, or Trigano Tribute, I definitely would have anticipated that I'd get Fiat Camper Services with it. It would be useful to learn from forum members with non-Murvi X/250 Ducato-based panel-van conversions what the situation is for their vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Good point Derek. I think you are probably right. So what Fiat need to do is amend their advertising to make it clear that the scheme does not include all Fiat based motorhomes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Out of curiosity, I looked through my motorhome documentation and found an October 2007 UK advertising leaflet for the Fiat Ducato X/250-based Trigano Tribute range. This leaflet includes a section describing Fiat Camper Services and Fiat Camper Assistance in some detail. As all Tributes are panel-van conversions, it would be extraordinarily perverse if the leaflet detailed the Fiat Camper products and these did not apply to the motorhomes to which the leaflet related. malc-d "So what Fiat need to do is amend their advertising to make it clear that the scheme does not include all Fiat based motorhomes." If the situation is that the vast majority of X/250 Ducato-based motorhomes (coachbuilt or panel-van conversions) do fall within the Fiat Camper scheme, the exceptions being conversions of 'commercial' panel-vans procured by small-volume manufacturers like Murvi, then I see the responsibility for informing a buyer that his/her new motorhome will not be covered by the Fiat Camper scheme resting with the small-volume manufacturer rather than Fiat. I've also found a February 2008 Murvi brochure and (unlike the Trigano Tribute leaflet) this makes no mention of the Fiat Camper scheme. If motorhome buyers are going to assume (perhaps understandably) that all Ducato X/250-based motorhomes are covered by the Fiat Camper scheme, and this is indeed true except for a small number of minor motorhome manufacturers building solely on panel-vans, then I believe it's up to those manufacturers to highlight in their literature that their motorhomes are excluded from the Fiat scheme rather than for Fiat to mention in broad terms the possibility of exclusions. I'm sure that motorhome converters are fully aware when their Ducato-based conversions are not eligible for Fiat Camper services. If Murvi's Ducato conversions are not eligible and Murvi chooses not to make this plain to potential buyers, as far as I'm concerned it's Murvi's sin of omission not Fiat's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Meadows Engine - 2009-02-18 11:04 PM You are so right Libby, my Murvi Morello new Jan 09 is shown on the V5 as a Motor Caravan. Even the nice polite lady at Fiat Slough agreed that it was a Fiat Motorhome but said Fiat would only recognise it as a commercial vehicle and as such will not allow it to beifit from its camper assist services which are only for Motorhomes! For the life of me I can't think why, don't they want us to use thier Ducato's, do they feel that some how my Morello and simlar are second rate Meadows Engine - I do not have any MH as yet, still looking but the Murvi Morello was on my 'possible' list and now you tell me it is a 'second class' MH !! Don't know what to say but in three months of looking I must say the negative reports on Fiat have pretty much made me kick them into touch. I note that Murvi also offer a VW and Mercedes alternative for the Morello but (allegedly) if I order today, delivery will be October / November !! Seems a tad excessive to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 As someone else asked what are you actually losing out on here exactly? It would be helpful to all if you could explain....... What precisely is missing from your standard Fiat European warranty that a fiat “camper” warranty offers? The Fiat camper chassis is a hell of a lot different than your base vehicle, so I don’t really see what you are on about until you make it clear. Most of us non Fiat motorhome owners have a standard manufactures warranty on chassis as that is what you get with most motorhomes *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Losos Go to a non FIAT agent and ask about deliveries, its pretty obvious that anyone trying to sell a FIAT would put you off all others, especially at this moment in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-02-19 3:16 PM As someone else asked what are you actually losing out on here exactly? It would be helpful to all if you could explain....... What precisely is missing from your standard Fiat European warranty that a fiat “camper” warranty offers? The Fiat camper chassis is a hell of a lot different than your base vehicle, so I don’t really see what you are on about until you make it clear. Most of us non Fiat motorhome owners have a standard manufactures warranty on chassis as that is what you get with most motorhomes *-) I agree. If you look through your standard Fiat commercial warranty and breakdown cover that came with your van, and then compare this to the Fiat Camper Assist, or Fiat Camper Services schemes, what, of real use, is missing? I think you will already have three years parts and labour warranty, with, if I remember, three years Europe wide breakdown cover? Many Fiat commercial garages will carry out servicing on a while you wait, or overnight, basis, because the commercial vehicle needs to be kept on the road. The scheme originated in France, and was a consequence of many coachbuilt motorhome owners encountering difficulty with servicing, because hoists, and workshop roof clearances, were inadequate for the larger bodies of coachbuilt motorhomes. The selected workshops can accommodate coachbuilts, and I'd be very surprised if, on arrival at one with a problem, they'd turn you away because you had a panel van conversion. They may "specialise" in motorhomes, but they aren't exclusively motorhome workshops. However, if you feel the Camper Assist/Service package essential for your peace of mind, it seems you can buy this for £79 per annum. Try Googling "Fiat Camper Assist" for details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I said earlier that, IF X/250 motorhomes made by minor panel-van converters who obtained their base vehicles by buying in 'commercial' Ducatos were not included in the Fiat Camper scheme, I believed it was the converters' responsibility to advise potential customers of this rather than Fiat. However, I can fully understand Meadows Engine being miffed, having discovered that his new Morello motorhome was not within the Fiat scheme - but only finding this out after the vehicle had been handed over to him. As far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevant whether Fiat Camper services have any real value above and beyond the standard Ducato warranty - if I had anticipated getting Fiat Camper services as part of the 'deal', then I'd want them even if I thought they weren't much cop. (For example, my Hobby motorhome has silly little decorative 'curtains' as standard. I removed them immediately after buying the vehicle and they won't be refitted until it is sold. I knew these curtains were part of the standard specification, but, despite always thinking they were useless, I would still have moaned like hell if they had not been present at the hand-over stage.) It does need emphasising that the matter of whether or not X/250 panel-van-based motorhomes are ALL excluded from the Fiat Camper scheme (which is what the original posting suggested) has still not been satisfactorily resolved. There's little point scragging Fiat about misleading advertising if it's the motorhome converters who should be taking most of the blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 Loso - With conversions you get what you pay for,If you want one off the shelf then a Murvis not for you. They are hand built to your order, colour, fabrics, fittings etc. This is my second Morello and conversion wise and build quality if its as good as the last one I’ll be very happy, defiantly not second class! X/250 wise the jury is out at the moment, mines a 3ltr auto so fingers crossed! I have checked my UK and European terms and my PVC Fiat Motorhome gets 1 year AA cover only, with an offer to extend it to 3 years at my own cost, but with a 10% discount ! Owners of real Fiat Motorhomes get a full 3years. The chassis may differ but the other 80% plus is the same. If the Fiat Camper scheme is for Fiat Motorhomes only why confuse the issue and call it “Camper” assistance . In February MMM page 49 the Tribute is clearly marketed as a Motorhome ( indeed its ( “the UK’s best loved”) If you have one of these please let us know are you offered the full Motor home package or do are you still a commercial vehicle on one year with the AA, pay for the next two years yourself. Perhaps Fiat could let us know, does it depend upon who built your motorhome rather than which Ducato its based on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 So it seems this is all about 2 years free breakdown cover... ...which incidentally is included with most decent insurance policies. The "camper" chassis according to Fiat is a significantly different beast then the commercial van, from the chassis,electrcs, suspension, brakes, tyres to seats electrics mirrors etc...etc...... http://www.fiatcamper.com/chassis.php Why you think you are initialled to a warranty on a product that you have not purchased is beyond me, I am sorry but unfortunately another case of Caveat Emptor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted February 19, 2009 Author Share Posted February 19, 2009 Fiat Camper assistance and Camper Services are in their own words “Tailored to meet the needs of Motorhomes” inference being that the existing commercial set up falls short of the service Fiat believes Motorhomes require. This is not about the cost of a couple of years cover, small beer in light of the cost of these vehicles, but about purchasing a Ducato based Motorhome and then finding you are excluded from the service set up by Fiat for Motorhomes. We can no doubt discuss the ins and outs of this indefinitely (the issue is open to opinion) but this unfortunately does little to resolve the underlying feeling that Fiat is treating some of its Motorhome customers as unworthy of its specialised service “Caveat Emptor” you say JudgeMental, perhaps in the case of this company you are very right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 JudgeMental - 2009-02-19 9:17 PM The "camper" chassis according to Fiat is a significantly different beast then the commercial van, from the chassis,electrcs, suspension, brakes, tyres to seats electrics mirrors etc...etc...... This comment is only relevant if this thread's title and the following two paragraphs of Meadows Engine's original posting are factually accurate: "Do you have Murvi Morello or perhaps an Autocruise Pace, AutoSleepers Symbol, IH Tio R, Trigano Tribute or similar, based on a Fiat Ducato and do you think you are driving a motorhome? Well FIAT are emphatic you are not, you are driving a commercial vehicle and as such you are not entitled to all the benefits of a proper Fiat based Motorhome, such as Fiats three years Camper Assist." As I highlighted earlier, the Trigano Tribute range of panel-van conversions is APPARENTLY (Note the capitalisation!) covered by the Fiat Camper scheme. The Tribute brochure also states that "we have extended the normal manufacturer's warranty to include cover for major items for an extra period, giving piece of mind for a total of 36 months." X/250 Fiat-based Murvi motorhomes evidently are not eligible for the Fiat Camper scheme and my best guess is that this is due to the route by which Murvi sources Ducato base-vehicles. Assuming that's the case, I'd also expect motorhomes made by IH Motor Campers (a small company like Murvi) to fall outside the scheme, together with Ducato-based panel-van conversions from other small-volume specialists (eg. Youngs) that regularly advertise in motorhome magazines. Autocruise and Auto-Sleepers X/250-based motorhomes use Peugeot underpinnings, so presumably won't be eligible either - but I'd expect new Ducato panel-van-based motorhomes from Adria, Burstner, Chausson, Eriba, Eura Mobil, Hymer, Laika and Swift Group to be Fiat Camper-eligible. These companies are all major motorhome manufacturers who will (presumably) source their base-vehicles direct from Fiat. It should be easy enough to check this hypothesis by contacting these companies (Perhaps some kind soul visiting the NEC Show could check with the appropriate exhibitors?), or by writing to Fiat for clarification. It was definitely worthwhile Meadows Engine warning potential buyers of Ducato X/250-based panel-van conversions that such motorhomes might not be eligible for the Fiat Camper scheme, but it now looks like this restriction does not apply to every motorhome using a panel-van base as was initially thought. In fact, I think it's a fair bet that most X/250 panel-van conversions WILL be eligible for the scheme. I still maintain this issue is little to do with Fiat and very much down to the motorhome converter to resolve. If buyers of Murvi Ducato-conversions anticipate getting Fiat Camper services as part of their deal with Murvi, basing this anticipation on Fiat's advertising, but (because of the way Murvi operates) Fiat consider Murvi's Ducato panel-van base-vehicles to be 'commercials', then it's up to Murvi to handle this apparent conflict. If Murvi are unable to market their Ducato conversions to include Fiat Camper services - either because Fiat won't permit this or Murvi are not prepared to purchase Fiat Camper as an add-on as Brian mentioned - then it would be much better for Murvi to make this obvious to potential purchasers, rather than for Fiat to try to clarify the matter by fine-tuning their advertising text. Incidentally, I've looked through quite a few brochures from motorcaravan manufacturers who build on 'proper' Ducato X/250 chassis (ie. the type of chassis pictured in Fiat's "Fiat Ducato Motorhome" leaflet and magazine advertising (eg. MMM January 2009, pages 152/153)) rather than panel-vans. Not many brochures mention that the Fiat Camper scheme applies to their motorhomes and none say that it does not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 The Fiat advertising that Derek refers to ( MMM Jan Page 152) is what I think could be clarified. I quote: "Exclusive European Customer Centre for Ducato motorhome. Available in 9 languages across 45 countries " Surely it is reasonable for anyone who buys any new X250 motorhome, based on a Ducato, to think that he is covered by that scheme. If they just added to the advert an asterisk with a note saying " with some exceptions, check with your supplier" there would be no confusion. ( ...and if the supplier doesn't know he can check with Fiat). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meadows Engine Posted February 20, 2009 Author Share Posted February 20, 2009 I contacted Murvi today and asked the question ,is it because its a Murvi or is it because its a Panel van conversion and their reply was , because its a panel van. They are happy for me to quote them on that. Fiat are unable to tell from the chassis number that it has been converted and so it is excluded. Even it apears when registered by their agents as a Motor Caravan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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