Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Corky 8]

Hi, My Motorhome is on Fiat chassis with the ubiquitous 2.3 engine and dreaded reverse Judder, the letter I received from Fiat said they would be in touch with me in March 09, as March is near out and no contact made by Fiat ,I phoned the Number on the letter and spoke to Justin Westnedge ,He informed Me Fiat are currently a month to a month and a half behind with the recalls ,and they would call mine in as soon as they could, seems all I can do is wait,

 

 

Corky

[Mel B]

These are Andy's photos:

 

[AndyStothert]

They are actually Steve's photos and between us all of them now seem to be displayed.

Anyone got any ideas about the actuator flexi hose thing which has been wrongly delivered?

We (me and Roger - Nick's still thinking) that it may be a clutch damper or something to iron out or soften the clutch contact, but we ain't sure yet as we haven't seen one.

Come on Derek.

[colinfrier]

Well they may now be fitting a Ford engine and gearbox but if you are thinking of buying would you trust them I wouldn't?????????????

[urbanracer]

The Peugeot 2.2L are ford engines made in Dageham one is a 100bhp and the other a 120bhp this is similar to the 100 bhp unit but has a double flywheel[DVA] different pistons with a special cooling mode and various other internal mods.

The 100bhp units are fitted with 5 speed boxes and the 120bhp with 6 speed boxes,Peugeot tell me it is not technically possible to fit a 6 speed box to the 100bhp power unit.

 

Althought I do wonder in the future if others will fit the 6 speed box and re-map the ecu.

[Stevef]

Well just back from Fiat garage, after clutch,sync,gear shaft, new reverse gear and new engine mounts fitted under warranty.

 

First noticed I don't have the thump sound when stater motor is engaged, clutch seems a bit lighter, gear changing possibly a little looser(but I'm being picky).

As for reverse seems to be O.K. but only tested on slight incline in reverse, I will over coming days go to a decent hill 1 in6 1 in 4 test, and will report my findings.

Ity took local Fiat garage 12 man hours of work.

For those interested I can email you photo's I took of what came out and was replaced. I know various people want to do comparions.

 

Just email on steve.fitzgerald@btinternet.com and I will send them to you.

[Stevef]

Photo's of the original parts removed.

[bobalobs]

Many thanks Andy for the update. It does nothing to persuade us to finalise the spec of our provisional order made last summer. Had been edging towards the 3 litre but the impression we gain is that Fiat are of the view that the extra torque of the engine minimises the inherent box design problem. At best they will take the new engine mount line.We hope to be proved wrong!!

In the green supplement to March MMM there is mention that at the H anover show fiat had a 2 litre 140 BHP engine to be fitted in the ducato.

Does anyone know timescale etc. A possible replacement for the 157 bhp 3 litre?

[euroserv]

I am informed that there will be some changes to the diesel engine line up ahead of the euro 5 deadline this autumn. Not confirmable yet.

 

The 2.0-140 of which you mention is a petrol based engine that is designed to run on CNG. It has interesting environmental credentials but is just not suitable for camper applications. (not enough torque). I am sure many of you have been down that road before, and those that have would probably not do it again even if the fuel was cheap (of which there is no long term guarantee) and the engine was refined at idle (but not when you are working it hard; and you will have to).

 

Nick

[colin]

AndyStothert - 2009-03-27 12:37 PM

 

Following on from the rumours of the demise of the 2.3 litre Fiat Ducato engine from the range I did a little digging yesterday and then had an unofficial conversation with someone at Fiat.

The following became clear:

The 2.3 litre engine ceased production about 12 weeks ago and is to be replaced by a Fiat badged 2.2 litre 120/130 Ford engine coupled to a modified 6 speed box with a reverse gear ratio the same as first gear.

It is thought that this gearbox has been developed to be used with the 2.2 litre engines only and will not suit the existing 2.3 litre engine.

This is why Fiat are now modifying existing gearboxes instead of swapping the whole gearbox but in the process the reverse gear ratio being installed in the 2.3 gearboxes is still 7% higher than first gear,. so some doubts do remain about its capabilities.

However until a good number are done and tested properly on different size vehicles we won't be able to judge.

 

Fiat and the motorhome manufacturers didn't want anyone to have this information because they will still be trying to sell the thousands of remaining vehicles fitted with the 2.3 litre engine and defective gearbox.

In a way, for those buying new the position is now much clearer - Anything with a 2.3 litre engine is potentially a load of hassle and expense, whereas a Fiat badged vehicle with 6 speed box and 2.2 litre engine will have the modified gearbox.

 

As for those who own the 5 speed and 3 litre versions Fiat are still not telling anyone anything, and Peugeot also seem to be dithering.

Is there no end to this?

 

I had thought there might be a 'facelift' model brought out, but it seems this is the info that buyers like me where waiting for, as your post was made lunchtime bet your names mud at Fiat UK.

I think there may be another 'part' to the fix, maybe nick has info?, ASIUT maxi chasis use different dif ratio, is this only for 3l or 2.3l as well? if so this might help at expence of a few more revs in top.

[canvaswind]

I'm interested in buying privately a secondhand Autocruise MH (reg May 06) based on a Peugeot Boxer "old shape" with a 2.8TDi diesel engine with the "old style" cab body work.

I have only recenty been made aware of motorhomes based on the Fiat X/250 and Peugeot Boxer suffering from vibrating transmission leading to clutch and gearbox failure when reversing up steep hills.

Not being familiar with Peugeot engines, is it possible to identify visually which engine/gearbox are prone to vibration problems?

Am I correct in assuming that the gearbox associated with the 2.8DTi engine has the correct gear ratios (and flywheel) and the above problems are restricted to the Fiat X/250 and equivalent Peugeot engine/gearbox?

[Guest peter]

All the engines in the old style cabs (94>2006)are good especially the 2.8, goes like a rocket.

Not all the later ones have a problem.

I'm buying a 2007 Burstner Merano on the 2.3 6 speed and it seems fine. It does have "Iveco" sticker on the side of the engine so it must be the ford engine without a problem.

I did ask in an earlier post exactly which vehicles are affected, but nobody was interested in replying. Everybody seems to be only interested in their own particular problem and sod anyone else who hasn't yet bought one of the affected vehicles. As many will iof the relevant information is not forthcoming.

[RoyH]

Well Peter, having followed this saga from its early beginnings I certainly would not put £1000s into any post 2007 motorhome with a Fiat or Peugeot badge on it no matter what engine or gearbox it had.

 

I have only an engineering interest in this as I have a caravan.

[libby]

Peter

 

You seem to have some pretty strong views about subjects that don't follow your line exactly. If you ask a question the replies are usually forthcoming, perhaps no one could answer your query exactly and to the exact point that you required.

 

The information posted here regarding the present problems has been running for over 12 months providing information on most models. Particular emphasis has been aimed at potential buyers of M/H's, contrary to what you may assume.

 

Bill

[nowtelse2do]

peter - 2009-03-27 9:43 PM

 

Peter, If you go to page 20 you will find that this thread as been going since Andy Stothert put it up on 17/01/2008 with 811 replies, It then had to be started again on 24/07/2008 currently on page 6 with 1243 replies. It then had to be started again which is the page you are now on 01/03/2009. At the time i'm typing this it as had 242 replies. That makes 2295 replies in total, so you have a lot of reading to do. But to save you time the model that seems to be the most problem is the X250 2.3 ltr 6 speed one.

 

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the engines in the old style cabs (94>2006)are good especially the 2.8, goes like a rocket.

Not all the later ones have a problem.

I'm buying a 2007 Burstner Merano on the 2.3 6 speed and it seems fine. It does have "Iveco" sticker on the side of the engine so it must be the ford engine without a problem.

I did ask in an earlier post exactly which vehicles are affected, but nobody was interested in replying. Everybody seems to be only interested in their own particular problem and sod anyone else who hasn't yet bought one of the affected vehicles. As many will iof the relevant information is not forthcoming.

[Brian Kirby]

peter - 2009-03-27 9:43 PM All the engines in the old style cabs (94>2006)are good especially the 2.8, goes like a rocket. Not all the later ones have a problem. I'm buying a 2007 Burstner Merano on the 2.3 6 speed and it seems fine. It does have "Iveco" sticker on the side of the engine so it must be the ford engine without a problem. I did ask in an earlier post exactly which vehicles are affected, but nobody was interested in replying. Everybody seems to be only interested in their own particular problem and sod anyone else who hasn't yet bought one of the affected vehicles. As many will iof the relevant information is not forthcoming.

Peter

If it is the 2.3 litre engine I think it will be a SOFIM unit and not a Ford.  The Fords, so far as I am aware, are 2.2 litre and 2.4 litre, the latter not being fitted to any SEVEL variant and the former only being used, at present, in the Peugeot-Citroen badged models.  In either event, the judder problem has more to do with the clutch/transmission, than with the engine.  The older Fiat 2.8 is a good slogger, and has lovely low end torque, but it is a bit of a boozer!

[tonyg3nwl]

hi all. In my post 23 march I mentioned that local dealer expected parts delivery Friday 27th.

 

as half expected nothing came and it took 3 phone calls to eventually get through as service reception was "very busy with customers".

 

I eventually got someone claiming to be the manager, and he was sympathetic, and looked out the info sheet and then promised to find out the situation and call me back. Surprise of the day, he did call back.

 

He told me that he has now got a list of required parts, and has been quoted a new date of April 14th.. he was honest enough to say that he didnt really beleive that date, as parts were not available in uk and had to be back ordered on a" bulk" order. he advised that I should call again after that date for further updates, and in the meantime drive forwards !

 

parts include main shaft and gearbox bearing, and replacement clutch of different type, and other bits and pieces to do the job.

 

He asked for the vehicle height (again) and I told him that they had already measured it. He further enquired if the vehicle had plastic side skirts below chassis lifting point levels as their lift "might" not be able to lift the vehicle without damage to the plastic sides. he will examine it when parts arrive.!

 

Watch this space !!!!!!!

 

tonyg3nwl

[colinfrier]

I for my sins have owned both a 2006 2.8 and a 2007 2.3 while I can't fault the 2.8 things move on and the 2.3 is far superior it's an excellent engine but the transmission that's another story?

As to what X250's are a problem all of them my advise to anybody stay clear.Those who say there is no problem have not put the vehicle through a full test.

How can a mass produced vehicle that are all the same vary?save body weight, final drive ratio and wheel size.It still means you cant reverse up hill at a slow speed without slipping the clutch and all that goes with that.

If there was no problem why have FIAT now dropped the unit and spending thousands rebuilding existing vehicles.

[Stevef]

Well, thats another fine mess I got into.

 

Apparently, my garage(Autoclinic Chelmsford, great bunch of engineers, and really customer focused and have been 100% supportive of me)

they have had the frightners put on them by Fiat Slough for allowing me to photograph the parts going into my van,

It appears they read them the riot act, as they did not want me or the other owners to know what they were doing(shame).

Fiat is doing the old smoke and mirrors trick, and trying to control events, thank god for the internet.

Fiat obviuosly monitors daily what the internet says about them, and tries to control events.(no surprise)

 

What gets me they are trying to put gagging orders on people, in our land of democracy and fredom of information. And dame it! its my van.!

 

But there again I should have expected it and not been so naive.

Just beware what you say on the internet as it may come back to bite you.

 

 

[libby]

 

Not surprisingly FIAT are annoyed but we all know they started it.

 

The internet is a wonderfull invention and will expose many more devious persons and businesses over the years, and hopefully we the consumer will benefit.

 

The piggy in the middle of the FIAT fiasco are the honest garages like the one mentioned who are obliged to meet the many hidden costs in all of this.

 

FIAT is very big business and they do not like having the finger pointed at them, refusing to admitting they've got it wrong was an error on their part.

 

 

[Andy T]

Brian,

 

Unless I have misread your post you are wrong about the 2.2 Ford, chain driven OHC engine, it is also fitted in the FIAT Ducato, I have one! And it judders, and that's official, even my local FIAT dealer says so!

I had a complainr number from FIAT originally but they cancelled it without telling me. Fortunately, I rang to complain again and they gave me a new number. Hmm, they might have cancelled that too.

The judder is not as bad as the larger engined models but reversing is accompanied by a smelly clutch if you're going more than a few yards and have to slip the clutch because of a lack of visibility.

Us five speeders haven't made as much fuss as the six speeders, fewer of us I suppose. Seems likely that we will be ignored as a silent minority.

 

As an aside the 2.2 engine in the Ducato produces 100bhp and in the Ford 120 bhp; possibility for a remap when out of warranty? That would make an even smellier clutch; so p'raps not.

 

Andy.

[Brian Kirby]

Andy T - 2009-03-28 11:07 AM Brian, Unless I have misread your post you are wrong about the 2.2 Ford, chain driven OHC engine, it is also fitted in the FIAT Ducato, I have one! And it judders, and that's official, even my local FIAT dealer says so! I had a complainr number from FIAT originally but they cancelled it without telling me. Fortunately, I rang to complain again and they gave me a new number. Hmm, they might have cancelled that too. The judder is not as bad as the larger engined models but reversing is accompanied by a smelly clutch if you're going more than a few yards and have to slip the clutch because of a lack of visibility. Us five speeders haven't made as much fuss as the six speeders, fewer of us I suppose. Seems likely that we will be ignored as a silent minority. As an aside the 2.2 engine in the Ducato produces 100bhp and in the Ford 120 bhp; possibility for a remap when out of warranty? That would make an even smellier clutch; so p'raps not. Andy.

Thanks Andy, I was unaware the Ford engine had been fitted by Fiat as well as PSA, although I hear it is now to replace the SOFIM 2.3 litre to which Peter was referring.  That Ford/PSA 2.2 in my van (Mk 7 Transit base) is rated at 130PS, and the latest versions at 140PS.  I can only assume the Ford transmission is different to the SEVEL versions because, although it is uncomfortable reversing, and also suffers an overly high reverse ratio and a very sharp DMF, it barely judders - though it takes very little slip to provoke "nasty niffs"!

[colin]

Andy T - 2009-03-28 11:07 AM

As an aside the 2.2 engine in the Ducato produces 100bhp and in the Ford 120 bhp; possibility for a remap when out of warranty? That would make an even smellier clutch; so p'raps not.

 

Andy.

 

They ain't quite the same, your 100 should be able to be chipped to 120, but ford 130 can be chipped to 150

[Andy T]

Brian,

Sorry to drag this post away from its subject momentarily, but approximately what fuel consumption do you get? My van does about 28 overall and I wondered if more power and therefore a lighter touch on the loud pedal might better 30?

I know that the theory says that it should make no difference if driving at the same speed, but in practice it may be different.

Andy.

[Brian Kirby]

29.35 over 10,000 miles.  Mostly off motorway, mostly at 60MPH ish as/where permissible, and about 65MPH on M'ways/duals.  The laden van is around 3,350Kg.