Guest peter Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Thanks for enlightening me Brian. Is it only going uphill in rerverse that the 130's judder or on the flat also and is it all vehicles?.As I am in the process of buying a 130 this is causing me some concern, as how will I fair if it happens to a second owner regarding getting it fixed for free by Fiat?. Perhaps the comeback would be on the dealer selling me the van, as they would certainly know of any pre-existing problems with this engine/gearbox setup prior to sale. So would in theory be liable for any subsequent failure. Would make an interesting test case. I just don't want to be the guinea pig to test this theory out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 All the 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducatos are affected. A reverse gear ratio which is too high has predictable and unavoidable consequences. The steeper the hill and the heavier the vehicle the more critical it become - obviously. Some of the bigger vans struggle to even reverse smoothly on level ground while thhe samller varieties, like ours, haved to be on quite steep ground before it becomes apparent that something is wrong. Other factors include soft ground, gravel, and worst of all the effect is worsened when the steering anything but straight so reversing blind (so slowly) up a steep narrow road with a bend or two in it is almost bound to cause damage. Nobody ever intends to get themselves in situations like these but we all tend to visit the kinds of places where it may well happen. In view of Fiat now stopping making the 2.3 litre 6 speed model anyone now buying a new one must be either not aware of this problem, or very stupid - or it will have to come very very cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Interesting point re the FIAT modifications what about the hundreds or thousands of vehicles both new and second hand held by dealers and converters. Will they be registering a complaint with FIAT and getting their stock sorted before they sell?. To date the dealers and converters don't omit to a problem so there's a dilema for them and more problems for their customers. Dealers any comments please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 colinfrier - 2009-03-29 10:06 AM Interesting point re the FIAT modifications what about the hundreds or thousands of vehicles both new and second hand held by dealers and converters. Will they be registering a complaint with FIAT and getting their stock sorted before they sell?. To date the dealers and converters don't omit to a problem so there's a dilema for them and more problems for their customers. Dealers any comments please. I continue to be amazed at how naive people can be. It would be commercial suicide for any commercial enterprise to admit to a faulty product, so why would they? You can call it dishonest or whatever you like but it happens all the time. The motor industry is a technical one so faults occur, as long as they are fixed and kept quiet the maker does not usually suffer much. Fiat have managed to keep 'the lid' on this very well with no mention in the main national press. Has it effected them, well no not really, they have to modify parts of van but this will come under a face lift no doubt. They continue to grab market share in the m/h market and their are no signs it has effected secondhand values. In the latest Glass's commercial guide Fiat based vans show no more or less price falls than competitors. Colin stated in a recent post his fixed van managed to reverse up a 1 in 4 slope with a small judder and this was the best he could hope for. Well Colin I would doubt their is a m/h on the market that would reverse up this without some form of protest and why would you even try, I feel a little realism is needed. I would be as irritated as any if I had a problem and would want a fix but the fix was never going to be a quick one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 This could be a similar commercial decision that caused problems for Hoover with the airline tickets. Who will or has fallen on their sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 Henry, Welcome back to the fray. I think Colin had his cynical old tongue firmly in his cheek when he put that last proposition forward. The matter of whether Fiat have been hurt or not is irrelevant - that isn't what we are after. All we ever wanted was a fix for these vehicles, and Fiat have done themselves no favours in the way they have (and continue to do so) handle this situation. If we'd been realistic in the first place then we'd have all just given up, got rid, and left some other poor sod futher down the line to pick up the bill for damaged clutches and gearboxes. We all realised why Fiat didn't want to admit that a general defect existed (and still don't really want to - just look at that garbage published in Practical Motorhome this month) but they were offered the opportuinity to sort this out a lot sooner and a lot quieter, but it was they who chose to not to. And now they are whinging (really, they are) that we are trying to damage them for its own sake. That isn't the case and as soon as we have a satisfactory solutuon for everyone who isn't happy with their vehicle, and an assuarance that future damage to the transmission caused by this defect will be paid for by them we will all then be happy with Fiat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 I noted that some of the F1 teams will be redesigning their back ends including completly new gearboxs, Ferrari(part of Fiat) will be one of these(but not sure about gearbox) who wants to open a book on which gets fixed first, Sevel gearbox or Ferrari back end, my money's on the Ferrari. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 O'dear its that bear again Taking your pointlesses: 1,I often read in the press recalls for faulty products and indeed my 2 year old faulty Minolta camera when I went on there web to seek a repair they declared the fault and said they would repair FOC. 2,Aero space is a techinical industry would you fly to the moon in a FIAT 3, I did not say I had a slight judder read the post again I said it juddered untill the clutch was out and the clutch would still have to be slipped to control speed 4,I have read many posts from transit and Merc owners saying they have no such problems my first van in 1972 was Commer Highwayman 1700cc petrol god knows what weight but no reversing problem. 5,Realism yes I have had three occasions in 12,000 miles with severe clutch burn 2 on hills 1in 5 ish and reversing out of sand.So bet your life everybody will get caught out at some time or other. 6,The fix could have been a lot quicker if FIAT had not tried to fob us all off its taken 2 years and it still aint right. What was that about NAIVE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Apologies if this post seems a little off topic, in that it is not especially about Fiat. I have a 2008 Autosleeper Duetto with rear-wheel drive and the 140PS engine. I also live on a 1 in 5 hill and have to reverse off the front parking space through a 90-degree turn and up said hill. Starting first thing this morning, with frost on the van (used the Quick Clear windscreen heater); there was not a trace of a shudder, or a judder. Not a gloat, just offering a comparison. I did not need to slip the clutch either. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyH Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 spospe Why post it then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 peter - 2009-03-29 12:42 AM Thanks for enlightening me Brian. Is it only going uphill in rerverse that the 130's judder or on the flat also and is it all vehicles?.As I am in the process of buying a 130 this is causing me some concern, as how will I fair if it happens to a second owner regarding getting it fixed for free by Fiat?. Perhaps the comeback would be on the dealer selling me the van, as they would certainly know of any pre-existing problems with this engine/gearbox setup prior to sale. So would in theory be liable for any subsequent failure. Would make an interesting test case. I just don't want to be the guinea pig to test this theory out. I have two suggestions. First and simplest, do not buy this van. No purchase = no worries.Second, but with higher risk, write to the dealer stating that you have heard numerous reports of problems with severe judder on reversing on hills, even to the extent of gearbox breakage, and consequently you would like their written assurance that the van you are being offered does not suffer this fault. Do not accept any offer of a road test as evidence of freedom from judder, since you will be unable to test the van fully laden until you own it. If they are prepared to state in writing, unequivocally, that the van is judder free, check their financial status at Companies House and, if it checks out satisfactorily, buy the van.Then, if it judders, you should have sufficient evidence that your were misled as to its characteristics by the seller, so allowing you to have the contract of sale voided and get your money back - provided the dealer is still in business!! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinfrier Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Brian your first suggestion is the best one the second a nightmare don't do it. If you must but an X250 ensure that it has had the full monty fix or get the dealer to get it done and ask for all the paper work to prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 29, 2009 Author Share Posted March 29, 2009 The juddering isn't the issue here - its just a symptom of the underlying design defect. Even if it doesn't judder (and has a very forgiving clutch maybe) then the gearing makes it impossible to reverse up a steep hill at a speed which the driver is in full control of the vehicle without either going up at an engine speed which is too low to develop sufficient torque to smoothly carry the load - with the resultant vibration which wrecks the box - or you slip the clutch to achieve the engine speed to develop the torque and then the clutch cooks. Some of them, like ours, don't judder until they are on a VERY steep hill, but it still sustained damage to the gearbox whilst reversing up that hill. Bill Loneskie has just put a very insulting post on the forum and it may best if nobody puts any further replies on it. What he doesn't say is that he has made an offical complaint to Fiat about the reversing problem. But please don't give it the attention it doesn't deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losos Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-03-29 9:18 PM Bill Loneskie has just put a very insulting post on the forum and it may best if nobody puts any further replies on it. I just read it, thought about saying something along the lines of 'Bill, are you worried about trade in value ? ' but decided against it and think you're probably right, just ignore it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Losos - 2009-03-29 8:55 PMAndyStothert - 2009-03-29 9:18 PM Bill Loneskie has just put a very insulting post on the forum and it may best if nobody puts any further replies on it. I just read it, thought about saying something along the lines of 'Bill, are you worried about trade in value ? ' but decided against it and think you're probably right, just ignore it lol Op's! I already contributed.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Just ordered a new Auto Trail Apache 634L with the 130 engine . What do you,obviously better informed types, advise??? Is the Auto-Sleeper Wilton (Ford) free of the "dreaded Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen judder" or any other problems? Very unhappy with Fiat! Why doesn't somebody,who has the problem,initiate a "Group Action"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Frank See my post above which shows that (in my case at least) the MK7 Transit is judder free on a 1 in 5 hill. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 29, 2009 Share Posted March 29, 2009 Michael Tyou. Your original post is most helpful. I would appreciate the views of owners of motorhomes "similar" to the one I propose to purchase,viz: Auto Trail Apache 634L - good and bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 30, 2009 Author Share Posted March 30, 2009 I'm still slightly seething about Bill Loneskie's disgraceful accusation that none of us can drive and that we have deliberately damaged our vehicles (that one is truly amazing), but the whole point is that we have nothing to prove now, as both Fiat and Puegeot are admitting that a defect exists. So after not sleeping properly last night because I was that wound up by Bill's outrageous comments (and then some sanctimonious idiot telling me off for reacting to it) I've decided that for the sake of my own health I've done enough to bow out almost gracefully. For a while at least, until I've calmed down, or my blood pressure is back to normal, and we have a larger number of vans having had the modifications done to assess whether they are effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 As one who is often insulted and 'got at' on here all I can say Andy is don't let the b******s grind you down - they are not worth it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Frank. You only need to read the above posts and over 2000 of them on the motorhomefacts website to realise that the Fiat and associated products are a very bad buy at present. There are horror stories of vehicles breaking down abroad and wranglings with Fiat over the warranty. Clutch burn out caused by the dodgy transmission is not (or was not) covered.Why spend £40,000 on a vehicle which will immediately give you the stress of how to deal with an inherent problem? Now it is true that the Fiat looks good and drives well. Most of the better looking motorhomes are based on the Fiat but personally I would listen to the many owners who are fed up to the back teeth with the problem. Prospective owners should also bear in mind that the judder is more prevalent when the vehicle is fully laden. It follows that if one is tried out in unladen form it might be more difficult to get the judder effect. Personally I would look for a vehicle based on a VW, Ford, Renault or Mercedes chassis. The Auto-sleeper Wilton was mentioned. Anything Auto-sleeper is likely to be a very good quality conversion provided it is not Fiat or Peugeot based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Here's some Peugeot news http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/search?query=peugeot+&restrict=countryUK&isinit=true&avtype=&invocationType=hf_talktalk_cl_ws_registered Instead of fighting among ourselves it is the owners of fiat and Peugeot who need to feel our rage. Last year I complained about this problem to VOSA someone recently posted a link that said only 8 people had complained, I was one I know one of the others who no longer has their van. We need more people to complain to VOSA. I have also complained to BBC's watchdog again no action they say they need more complaints. We have got to stay together and look to where we can find support to get this problem fixed by Fiat and Peugeot, I know some models are having work done but what about the rest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-03-30 12:04 PM I'm still slightly seething about Bill Loneskie's disgraceful accusation that none of us can drive and that we have deliberately damaged our vehicles (that one is truly amazing), but the whole point is that we have nothing to prove now, as both Fiat and Puegeot are admitting that a defect exists. So after not sleeping properly last night because I was that wound up by Bill's outrageous comments (and then some sanctimonious idiot telling me off for reacting to it) I've decided that for the sake of my own health I've done enough to bow out almost gracefully. For a while at least, until I've calmed down, or my blood pressure is back to normal, and we have a larger number of vans having had the modifications done to assess whether they are effective. Andy, I think most of us value you input, please dont be undermined by Bill's comments, he is only voicing his opinion, he does not speak for the rest of us. Besides he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiat UK Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 In response to a recent posting, we felt the need to clarify information regarding the 2.3ltr 130 Ducato. This engine and vehicle remains in production and will continue to be part of the Ducato range for the foreseeable future. I hope that this information clears up any confusion. Should you have a concern regarding this information, please contact our Customer Relations Team on a freephone number 00800 3428 0000 or via email customerrelations@fiat.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Dear Fiat, I do not wish to be confrontational or 'aggressive' but if what you say is true I would like to suggest, on behalf of the members of this forum (if I may be so bold) that this course of action is utterly irresponsible. We depend on manufacturers learning from their mistakes and expect that having identified a problem that you would in fact cease production of a vehicle that is patently unsuitable for the very purpose that you have proclaimed it to be ideal, until such time as you can guarantee that it is rectified. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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