Guest Tracker Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Fiat UK - 2009-03-30 4:53 PM In response to a recent posting, we felt the need to clarify information regarding the 2.3ltr 130 Ducato. This engine and vehicle remains in production and will continue to be part of the Ducato range for the foreseeable future. I hope that this information clears up any confusion. Should you have a concern regarding this information, please contact our Customer Relations Team on a freephone number 00800 3428 0000 or via email customerrelations@fiat.com A typical FIAT response - no help or reassurances whatsoever to any owners that might have a defective vehicle. As much can be deduced about attitudes from what is NOT said as can be learnt from what is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icdsun Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Peter The dealer selling you this vehicle will knowingly have sold a defective vehicle, it is now a matter of public record that the 2.3/130bhp 6 speed is defective in that Fiat are now actively modifying vehicles of that age and configuration, we have the same model you are considering buying, and it is awaiting the fix in the next few weeks, Burstner bit fine, Fiat forward OK reverse Dire Make it part of your contract that the dealer has all the mods done before you collect, the info for the parts etc is on here and he should be able to produce official Fiat documentation tp prove work has been carried out. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Well Fiat have certainly made their position very clear but there is no mention of any operating defects. Perhaps Fiat would now comment on that aspect in an attempt to reassure potential buyers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icdsun Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Frank Don't hold your breath Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DESCO Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Frank. They haven't so far so why should they now. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Frank, You asked for feedback from owners of similar machines to the Autotrail Apache 634 you are considering. I bought an Apache 700 last year on a 4 tonne Maxi chassis. Mine judders like a very juddery thing even when reversing on level ground. Throw in a slight slope or grass or gravel and then it really does become alarming. Whilst we do everything we can to avoid reversing until it gets fixed, it really is a major concern and gives the impression it might expire at any second. It hasn't stopped us using it though - we're off to Germany on Sunday, hopefully driving forwards all the way. Take note of the fact that the judder is simply a symptom of the fact that reverse gear is way too high. The overly high gear issue applies to each and every 2.3 6 speed X250 whether or not an individual vehicle exhibits the judder. This will cause problems regardless of the propensity to judder. For the amount of money you will be spending, put the time in to read this and the two previous versions of this thread in detail. Have a look at the summary from Andy Stothert on page 1 of this thread for a good idea of the wider issue. Why put yourself through the hassle and risk of owning one of these fundamentally flawed vehicles if you don't need to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossifan Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 This is my first posting and it is with trepidation that I mention that I am within days of placing an order for DARE I say it a Ducato X250 base vehicle with coachwork by Swift. It seems there are some vociferous contributors on this subject and I certainly don't want to cross swords with any of them but I am wondering if I should heed their warnings or TRUST that Fiat/Swift/the Dealer will come clean on this problem. It has not been mentioned in the three conversations I've had so far with the dealer & the direct answer to my email to Swift on the subject was "that Fiat are sorting it." I am hiring a similiar van to the one I will be purchasing with the 100 bhp engine and will hopefully make an assessment which will form a basis for my decision-this was partly the reason to go to this trouble and for my wife to see if it all works for her(not the gearbox!).Obviously van choice goes a lot further than mechanical selection,such things as layouts etc but it would pain to say the least,suffering unwanted breakdowns etc. Its been quite a lengthy process in choosing a suitable van and in looking for alternative British makes,of which there are not that many out there under 35k.Went to the Birmingham show,to see what was out there but when it came down to it there were'nt that many that suited us'within our budget. Like one of the postings said I will be insisting that Fiat include any update in the gearbox design as part of the deal as this now seems to be common knowledge,thanks it would seem to the efforts of those on this forum,for which I am very grateful. I would not expect a franchised dealer to declare a problem exists, when all Swift & Autocruise vehicles are on Fiat chassis and they seem to be the biggest supplier to the euro van market. Happy days(hopefully)) Ron :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Ron, I hope it doesn't all end in tears. At least you know the Risks, a lot of purchasers didn't have a hint of the problem. Good luck ! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 rossifan - 2009-03-30 8:46 PM "...but I am wondering if I should heed their warnings or TRUST that Fiat/Swift/the Dealer will come clean on this problem. It has not been mentioned in the three conversations I've had so far with the dealer & the direct answer to my email to Swift on the subject was "that Fiat are sorting it." Surely this tells you all you need to know to make the decision on who to trust. The dealer is willing to sell you a bus he knows is fundamentally flawed without mentioning that fact. The converter is passing the buck with a vague response that Fiat will sort things out. Fiat will have to undertake major surgery somewhere down the line on your expensive new toy and when they are finished it will still not be 100% sorted. Good luck with this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 rossifan - 2009-03-30 8:46 PM ........... Like one of the postings said I will be insisting that Fiat include any update in the gearbox design as part of the deal as this now seems to be common knowledge,thanks it would seem to the efforts of those on this forum,for which I am very grateful. I would not expect a franchised dealer to declare a problem exists, when all Swift & Autocruise vehicles are on Fiat chassis and they seem to be the biggest supplier to the euro van market. Happy days(hopefully)) Ron :-D To the first point above, I would just say this. When you buy, you buy from a dealer, not from Fiat or from Swift. Your contract of sale is with the dealer, and under British law the dealer is the only person against whom you will have legal redress should your van go wrong. You will benefit from guarantees offered by both Fiat and Swift, but these are extra contractual "promises" made by entities who are not parties to your contract for sale. Therefore, you have no legal right of redress against either, and no means of enforcing compliance with their guarantees in terms other than they decide. If they tell you their warranty obligations have been met, they have been met, whatever you may think the case. I do not imply bad faith on the part of Fiat or Swift, just that you cannot legally "reach" them. Your dealer, whatever he may say, cannot bind either Swift or Fiat in respect of how they will execute their guarantees. He can only commit to actions he is competent to discharge. Therefore, if he unconditionally undertakes to have mechanical defects on your van repaired, he will be undertaking to have the repairs carried out at his own expense should Fiat fail, or refuse, to agree to undertake such repairs under warranty. Unless the dealer is a fully authorised Fiat repairer, for so long as the vehicle remains under warranty, he would have to pay for a Fiat authorised repairer to carry out all such mechanical repairs. The same would apply in respect of Swift's warranty. I leave you to judge.To your second point I would only say that, while as a fully paid up cynic I applaud your realism, if you ask the direct question of the seller about judder in respect of your proposed purchase you should expect an honest reply. If you are advised it will not be affected, get that in writing, and make clear, also in writing, that you are relying on their advice to that effect as a condition of purchase. Then, if it judders when you get it, you will at least be able to prove that they mis-sold you the vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 And make sure any letter that says they will make good any defects and, or give you your money back is written and signed by a company director. It is often the salesman who says there are no problems and they will play the game that all the vehicle repairs are done by Fiat dealers and try to take all blame off themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euroserv Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 Rossifan, I agree completely with Brian but would like to add this; On this very forum we have today heard that Fiat are still churning out defective vehicles regardless of the fact that they have an unproven modification in progress and this is after 2 years of agonising distress to owners. Why the heck would you want to put yourself through this? Buy yourself a nice used 2.8 Ducato and run it for a year. There are some bargains out there and you should not lose as much money on one of those in a year as you would a new one anyway. Wait for the dust to settle and make an informed choice later. Just my opinion, but it is what I would do and I hope it helps. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DESCO Posted March 30, 2009 Share Posted March 30, 2009 I can only agree with all Nick says above, you would be far better buying a good secondhand old style Fiat ,or find another van with a different base, Ford, Renault or Merc. Hope you find something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just a tip for Ron, who is thinking of hiring before purchase - ensure you hire the exact same vehicle with the same engine/gearbox combination as you are thinking of buying. I say this because the 100 5 speed models are lower geared than the 6 speed models and do not generally show the symptoms quite as readily. As for Fiat's statement that the now discredited 2.3 6 speed version is still in production for the 'foreseeable future' this is a bit vague. Especially when the very man who wrote the post told someone else last week that production hadn't ceased but had been 'suspended'. There are also rumours of a widening of the 3 litre engine range (with a new gearbox) this autrumn to cover the hole left by the 2.3 engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niton Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Andy, I own a Pilote with the 3.0ltr 160 engine. Although I have have not experienced any severe judder as I have not had to reverse up a steep hill fully loaded. This has not and will not stop me chasing Fiat to put right my defective motorhome. I have had the ECU remapped last year when the 'van went in to have the leaking scuttle seen to. On start up I also experience the thug/clump which cannot be right and I feel cause some damage to some parts. The last letter I received dated 16th February, from Justin Westnedge was as usual very disappointing. Here are some extracts: "As previously advised, we are awaiting further information from our colleagues in Italy regarding the 3.0ltr engine. We have started the modifications and information regarding the engine on your vehicle. We still have no timescale for the testing to be completed as I confirmed in my previous letter to you. We note your frustration with this concern however; I am unable to advise you of any further information at this time." I first contacted Fiat in August last year and as you can I am no further forward. There is no other option other than to keep pressing Fiat until they fix our 'vans and with a fix that we are happy with. It will be a long struggle, I think. When I rang Fiat in August I was told when reversing to keep the revs at 1300. This is a nonsense and is treating the symptom and not the cause of the judder. Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 In an attempt to purchase a new "trouble-free" motorhome I have been studiously reading the "info" in these "threads" for a few days. Prior to that I have come across some unsavoury and some very decent dealers but ,in general , uninformed opionion opinion pertinent to this juddering issue. Perusal of these threads has cleared the decks,viz: I SHALL NOT BE PURCHASING A CERTAIN "BREED" OF MOTORHOME PLATFORM!! Possibly I haven't examined the info herein in depth but I don't see any LEGAL OPINION expressed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Frank McAuley - 2009-03-31 10:40 AM Possibly I haven't examined the info herein in depth but I don't see any LEGAL OPINION expressed? Frank, clock Brian's post, 6 up from yours, it may help if you've not read it already? Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank McAuley Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Thr legal opinion to which I refer is against the manufacturer by,for example, a "Group Action". There certainly appears to be enough of you in this invidious position. I thankyou all for your invaluable advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicolasblackhurst Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi, This is my first post with regards to this, firstly I would like to thank Andy and others for their persistance in bringing these problems to our attention. It is a shame that Andy has been upset by somebody who seems to have been very ungrateful to say the least. I bought my Ducato based Adria Coral S 670 SL at the end of last year and had a great deal of trouble getting my Dealer to register and tax the vehicle, which was completed at the start of January. I had noticed a bit of a judder in reverse, but didn't realize how significant this was until a friend of ours told me about this thread. I have now got my vehicle registered with Fiat for the reverse judder and have been given a case number. However, what worried me was that at first when I gave them my chassis number they thought that it was an Auto Trail. They then told me that the vehicle warranty hadn't been registered by the Dealer and asked for a copy of the V5 to be sent to them. So it seems as if my Dealer has failed me yet again! Seems rather odd that Chelston's didn't have any problem doing a bit of work for my under warranty last month though. Chelston's aren't the Dealer that I bought the van from, but they are my nearest Dealer and have been very helpful. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 LordThornber - 2009-03-31 10:44 AM Frank McAuley - 2009-03-31 10:40 AM Possibly I haven't examined the info herein in depth but I don't see any LEGAL OPINION expressed? Frank, clock Brian's post, 6 up from yours, it may help if you've not read it already? Martyn To be clarify, I am not offering a "legal opinion" I hold no qualification that would enable me to do so. I am merely offering a personal opinion, based upon a lifetime of working with contracts in a non-legal capacity. I think the term used, which the legal profession hate, was "quasi arbitrator", because I held no qualification as an arbitrator, either! The terms by which I was bound to act were written into the forms of contract used. The basics, however, remain pretty much the same in all spheres of activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 LordThornber - 2009-03-31 10:44 AM Frank McAuley - 2009-03-31 10:40 AM Possibly I haven't examined the info herein in depth but I don't see any LEGAL OPINION expressed? Frank, clock Brian's post, 6 up from yours, it may help if you've not read it already? Martyn To clarify, I am not offering a "legal opinion", as I hold no qualification that would enable me to do so. I am merely offering a personal opinion, based upon a lifetime of working with contracts in a non-legal capacity. I think the term used, which the legal profession hate, was "quasi arbitrator", because I held no qualification as an arbitrator, either! The terms by which I was bound to act were written into the forms of contract used. The basics, however, remain pretty much the same in all spheres of activity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Alright Brian, I heard you the first time. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Alright Brian, I heard you the first time. :D Bugger! now I've gone and done it. Servers so slow I hit button twice. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Just some info' I gleaned from a customer of mine who is a Gearbox Technician. They strip and re-build them all day every day and really know what they are talking about. I asked him if he knew anything about the Fiat reverse gear problem and he replied that it was common knowledge among Fiat dealership circles that the reverse ratio was too high for use on a Motorhome body that constantly loads the chassis to maximum. I also asked him about software so called fix and he said that it was merely an upping of the Idle Up speed when in reverse to minimise stalling and was certainly not a cure. I then mentioned the replacement of the reverse gear. To which he replied was a very major job requiring replacement of 3 items (1) Main Gearbox Input Shaft (2) Reverse gear & Synchro Hub (3) Reverse Idler Gear He is almost certain that you can't get away with only changing the reverse gear hub only. All of the above work involves a complete stripdown and re-build of the affected Gearboxes which would cost Fiat plenty. Now I can understand their reluctance to admit their is a major problem. I would also like to thank unreservedly, Andy Stothert for his valiant fight for justice regarding this matter. I am lucky inasmuch that I am coming into this fray late in the day as a prospective purchaser of one of these vehicles and have the experience of Andy & Co for reference before committing myself. A fact that we should all be etternally grateful. As it means that us non current owners, have the opportunity to get the work carried out before coughing over our hard earned. Which was denied the current owners, and I wish them all good fortune in getting an acceptable outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 You'll be lucky to buy a vehicle with a fixed gearbox unless your time horizon is very very long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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