colinfrier Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I asked on this forum 29/03/09 what is happening to all the unmodified X250's new and second hand in dealers and converters hands are they going to register the problem and get the work done or get the suckers that buy them to deal with the problem. Surely they have a moral obligation to at least get the mods done before sale now they know FIAT have admitted the problem? Any prospective buyer who still wants to purchase an X250 make sure mods have been carried out and ask to see all the paperwork I asked for dealer and converters comments guess how many have appeared to date? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have just picked my van up from Fiat following transmission modification. I put the van in reverse with no throttle, a very slight judder. When I got home I reverse up onto my drive, avoiding the neibours car, no judder. To date I have not retried it on a steep hill, however, it is a vast improvement. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Mike88 - 2009-03-31 5:28 PM You'll be lucky to buy a vehicle with a fixed gearbox unless your time horizon is very very long.I don't think dealers have a choice in the matter. As they cannot sell a vehicle which they know is defective without telling the prospective buyer about the extent of the defect and they cannot now pretend that they don't know about it as it's in the public domain. If the buyer is willing to accept the vehicle as is then they would be very foolish. I have no intention of accepting a used Fiat X250 based M/H unless all the known transmission problems are sorted first and documentation relating to the repairs carried out. Those are my terms as I still have my cash in my pocket. This is what I have been assured by the seller of the one I'm interested in and will applaud them when the work is carried out to my satisfaction. If as stated above it will be a long time, then the dealer will have it on his forecourt a lot longer than it takes me to find an alternative van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 According to several posts on the motorhomefacts website there is no recognised fix available for right hand drive vehicles. Fiat are selling people a load of hot air. Those that have been supposedly done so far have been offered a quick fix and not the real McCoy. They have been short changed because the remedy simply masks the judder and not got to the root cause meaning further problems down the line. I'm a Fiat owner in waiting but at the present time I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. I'm hanging on to my totally reliable (but now nearly 7 years old ) Transit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 peter - 2009-03-31 4:27 PM Alright Brian, I heard you the first time. :D 'Tis the judder, it's contagious! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-03-31 8:10 PMpeter - 2009-03-31 4:27 PM Alright Brian, I heard you the first time. :D 'Tis the judder, it's contagious! :-)Best not get too close to Andy then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Mike88, can you elaborate on your information. I could not find reference to the fix not working. There have been a few now who have the fix and say it appears to be fine. What I have read is the LHD clutch pipe is not readily available and reusing the original pipe will be carried out and later changed as it includes a damper of some sort. One person has mentioed a problem judder still exists and now has a whine when reversing. This has to be disounted as a non ssuccessdul fix at this stage as it sounds like the modification has not been carried out corectly but until facts are clearer I do not think you can put any weight behind this report. Maybe for example the mechanic was silly and only replaced the idler gear....at this stage who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted March 31, 2009 Author Share Posted March 31, 2009 Well, I've got to say that I'm relieved to see Melvin's vehicle has shown has a vast improvement after the modifications have been done. I was feeling a bit down this morning after another owner had contacted me to say how disappointed he was with the mods. Hopefully it is just a bodged job and can be rectified. Melvin's is a big van and if it has improved his then there is indeed hope for the rest of us. It is really a bit too early to tell for sure but at least a positive note..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Andy, Why are you not at the head of the queue? I'm sure Mr FIAT would like to remove you from the forum. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Mike88 - 2009-03-31 7:30 PM According to several posts on the motorhomefacts website there is no recognised fix available for right hand drive vehicles. Fiat are selling people a load of hot air. Those that have been supposedly done so far have been offered a quick fix and not the real McCoy. They have been short changed because the remedy simply masks the judder and not got to the root cause meaning further problems down the line. I'm a Fiat owner in waiting but at the present time I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. I'm hanging on to my totally reliable (but now nearly 7 years old ) Transit. That sounds like deliberate scaremongering, or total misunderstanding. RHD and LHD vehicles have a number of differences, but these are largely limited to where the steering wheel, gearchange, and clutch/brake/accelerator pedals, go. The power train is the same, whichever side the driver sits.Since gearchange is effected by (so far as I know) bowden cable linkages between lever and selectors, the difference between LHD and RHD vehicles is the length of the bowdens. These will not need changing.Clutch actuation is on the SEVELs is, I believe, hydraulic, so the difference here will be longer hydraulic pipes. New hydraulic pipes seem to be part of the kit, so longer, RHD, pipes are rqeuired.The accelerator probably terminates at a resistor or similar, so the difference between LHD and RHD here will be longer wires connecting to the ECU. These wires are not changed.None of these items would have the slightest affect on how the gear ratios, clutch mechanism, and engine mounts, interact when reversing.The only thing that seems to have happened, that may have sparked this tale, is that some early rectification kits were supplied with the shorter LHD clutch hydraulic connecting pipes instead of the longer RHD variety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 oops! I meant RHD in my last post. I was thinking driving on left not driver position. Grrrrrr! Edit: Brian, as part of the ne clutch there is a different clutch hose. It is not clear what is different exactly but is to do with damping the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Mike88 - 2009-03-31 7:30 PM According to several posts on the motorhomefacts website there is no recognised fix available for right hand drive vehicles. Fiat are selling people a load of hot air. Those that have been supposedly done so far have been offered a quick fix and not the real McCoy. They have been short changed because the remedy simply masks the judder and not got to the root cause meaning further problems down the line. I'm a Fiat owner in waiting but at the present time I wouldn't touch one with a bargepole. I'm hanging on to my totally reliable (but now nearly 7 years old ) Transit.With rspect .What's the steering wheel side got to do with the gearbox. Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Hi Peter, The RHD and LHD have different clutch pipes or hoses. Part of the mod is to replace the pipes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 God! there's some b*llocks being written on here at the moment, obviously by people who have no mechanical knowledge whatsoever or they read it on the back of a Cornflakes packet. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, plese don't post it, as it only causes confusion for the folk who really know absolutely nothing.. It's bad enough already. But how many will readilly admit that they don't know what they are going on about. Not many? Me included. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-31 8:58 PM Hi Peter, The RHD and LHD have different clutch pipes or hoses. Part of the mod is to replace the pipes.So! it's just a pipe you can get made up anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brian Kirby - 2009-03-31 8:10 PMpeter - 2009-03-31 4:27 PM Alright Brian, I heard you the first time. :D 'Tis the judder, it's contagious! :-)Definately not Brian I don't own one yet. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 peter - 2009-03-31 9:12 PM Brambles - 2009-03-31 8:58 PM Hi Peter, The RHD and LHD have different clutch pipes or hoses. Part of the mod is to replace the pipes.So! it's just a pipe you can get made up anywhere. No it is not I am afraid to say. It is a FIAT supplied part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 I have been asked to elaborate on my earlier post. Apparently those who have had the fix will need to return for a hydraulic pipe with a damper to effect the final fix. This part is not yet available in rhd form so the fix is being done using the existing pipe. So, as yet nobody really knows whether the fix will work. All we know is that those who are due to have the work done now will need two trips to their dealer which is not an ideal situation. Those that have had it done so far (using the existing pipe) all have a degree of judder. So, all I'm saying is that any prospective Fiat owners (including me) should hold fire until they can be sure the final fix will work. Earlier fixes involving software modifications have clearly failed so anyone who spends money on a new motorhome without being absolutely sure the problem is solved does so at their own risk. Andy has posted a couple of recent posts on the other site so read those and the many others before making a final decision to buy. I can understand why people are getting agitated; I would if I'd spent £40plus K on a load of hassle. After all nobody wants to be told the've been sold a pup. That is my final word on the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-31 9:34 PM peter - 2009-03-31 9:12 PM Brambles - 2009-03-31 8:58 PM Hi Peter, The RHD and LHD have different clutch pipes or hoses. Part of the mod is to replace the pipes.So! it's just a pipe you can get made up anywhere. No it is not I am afraid to say. It is a FIAT supplied part.O/k sorry. But you could get one made up if you needed to. What's this damper business all about. It just actuates the slave cylinder surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-31 8:51 PM oops! I meant RHD in my last post. I was thinking driving on left not driver position. Grrrrrr! Edit: Brian, as part of the ne clutch there is a different clutch hose. It is not clear what is different exactly but is to do with damping the clutch. True, but the judder afflicts both RHD and LHD vans so, on the basis that it somehow contributes to the judder, both - and not just RHD vans - will require the re-designed pipe. The difference will, as I said above, be that a longer pipe will be required for RHD vans. I believe the first few kits contained the shorter, LHD pipe, which is what I think is shown in the photograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted March 31, 2009 Share Posted March 31, 2009 That's o/k then, as I'm interested in a LHD one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I had another slightly vague and unspecific conversation with Fiat yesterday and the Fiat representative stated that the necessary parts (the RHD pipe) should be available soon, but wouldn't be drawn on a specific date when they would arrive. He admitted that the original estimate of 10 days (which would mean delivery yesterday I think) was optimistic. The subject of extending warranties came up again and Fiat's position is still that any claim after the expiry date wil be dealt with on an individual basis and at Fiat's discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 Fiat discretion is a contradiction in terms surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 1, 2009 Author Share Posted April 1, 2009 I think we need to thank Bill Loneskie for revitalising this topic and bringing yet more attention to it. This in turn (thanks to Wild Bill) will inevitably make more people aware of the ongoing shortcomings of the Ducato transmission and heap yet more misery on the unfortunate motorcaravan industry in Britain. Keep at it Bill, we're all behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 1, 2009 Share Posted April 1, 2009 I have come to the unfortunate conclusion that this whole complaints business is being badly mis-managed or not at all. I am not talking about from Fiat's corner either. There has been so many thousands of words containing maybe some truths, plus many half thruths and a lot of speculation to the root cause of this reversing problem. That it has taken a life of it's own and is running amok and in danger of disappearing up it's own backside. I think it's about time that someone on here collated all the facts and analysed them to arrive at a solution. Also to do the same with information that is emanating from Fiat. That way if it's proven that the reverse gear ratio is to blame, and Fiat say they will cure it by upping the idle speed when in reverse to stop it stalling, we will know that it''s a fob off. It will also enable us to estimate what work and parts are involved, thus giving an idea whether it will or not get done and at what timescale.If anybody has already done or is doing this can they please publish their findings. As at the moment it's diving off at tangents all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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