Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[rupert123]

Peter while I tend to agree with the 'running amok bit', if rather than spouting on you looked back a few posts you would see your questions answered. Their is not only a list of parts but pictures of them as well, no one has to estimate, it is clearly laid out. As to collating all KNOWN facts Andy has done this a few times. I would like to know who you think has mis-managed this, as far as I know no one has tried, why would they, it is up to individuals to put in their complaints to Fiat, why on earth should someone else do it for them. It seems to have fallen on Andy who has made most noise but it is clearly not his responsibilty to sort everyone else out, although he has kept people informed. I have had a few disagreements with him over this, not all posted on here, but feel he has gone far beyond what he needed to do in trying to keep others informed. If you feel so strongly why not do the work yourself or are you just talk?

[Mike88]

Rupert has hit the nail on the head.

 

It seems to me that those who have bought Fiat's have very fairly warned off potential purchasers from buying anything Fiat related so how much more does anyone need to know. The situation is very clear and the solution obvious. For one I am very grateful for the advice received on the various forums.

 

In the light of all that has been said by those who have first hand experience of dealing with the problem, anyone who is even considering buying a Fiat against all the advice that has been given by existing owners is seriously misguided. How many more times does Peter need to be told?

 

Noone knows whether the fix is 100% reliable until the relevant parts have been fitted. And one of these parts is not available at present. If the vehicle he wants is a LHD then he might have to consult someone in euroland that might have had the full fix completed, not expect others to do his research for him. Why on earth make such a song and dance about it?

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

Fair comment Mike, but if anyone does feel that a cure is in sight now could be a good time to buy whilst prices are depressed and dealers keen to deal?

 

Personally, like you, I don't suffer from that optimism - but I can understand those that do - I think?

[Guest peter]

O/K Mike et al, in that case I will do my own thing and if I get the one I'm looking at fixed before I buy it. I will keep that information to myself.

I'm perfectly capable of repairing it myself given the parts. But I won't.

That's positively my final word regarding this matter.

[kedavi]

"What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

 

Strother Martin as 'Captain' in Cool Hand Luke.

 

He certainly knew his motorhomes!

 

Seriously - good luck with your prospective purchase Peter - I hope it doesn't judder.

[Guest peter]

kedavi - 2009-04-01 9:35 PM

 

"What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

 

Strother Martin as 'Captain' in Cool Hand Luke.

 

He certainly knew his motorhomes!

 

Seriously - good luck with your prospective purchase Peter - I hope it doesn't judder.

Thanks. That is my final word./

[Brambles]

kedavi - 2009-04-01 9:35 PM

 

"What we’ve got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week. Which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."

 

Strother Martin as 'Captain' in Cool Hand Luke.

 

He certainly knew his motorhomes!

 

Seriously - good luck with your prospective purchase Peter - I hope it doesn't judder.

It won't for the reasons already stated. That is my final word./

 

Good Luck Peter.

Judder is one thing, what about burning clutches, and also the reduced life of the DMFlywheel, ok, maybe all interelated.

Does the fix resolve the problem of the reverse gear crashing into the second gear which the judder can cause to happen. What else can make it happen. We don't know yet if with the new modded gears the crashing is prevented totally.

Brake pedals going to the floor, and clutch Pedals sticking down. All more faults which have not really been aired very much as overtaken by the Judder issue. OK, maybe not very common but have been reported on these Forums as occurring.

 

Edit: Forgot also the many reports of the Engine batterys being flattened by the higher current drain in the X250 compared to previous Ducato - appears to be a problem there as well. Fine for a van in daily use, but a Motorhome infrequently used. So all is not so rosy.

[kedavi]

Brambles,

 

Nick from Euroserve stated in his post of 4th March that the 2.3 litre engined variants do not use the DMF flywheel, and he does seem to know his stuff. The 3 litre models do use the DMF flywheel.

 

 

[Brambles]

Good reason to go for a 2.3 then if a fixed flywheel, I do not like DM flywheels but is a personal view. They generally give you smoother running but do have a reduced life. When replacing a clutch it is always recommended you replace the DM Ffywheel as well, also along with the center mounted concentric slave cylinder - all makes clutch replacement very expensive, and if having to slip the clutch in reverse then for those who have to do it a lot you are looking at a much shorter life for the clutch. Another maintenance cost to think about long term.

[colin weston]

Peugeot Update (Two steps forward, one step back!)

I took my Autocruise Starburst to my Peugeot dealer yesterday for a PPD with Peugeot Technical Dept. Apparently Peugeot Technical insist on the vehicle being at the dealers before they will decide on the work programme. When I picked it up today I was told that the gearbox would be reworked with a new primary gear shaft, new reverse gear and a sleeve. I was also told that this was not necessarily a cure for the problem but it would improve the situation. Then I was informed that although they are a 'Commercial' dealer they wouldn't be able to accomodate my motohome on their ramps due to size and weight. The alternative was to do it on the floor which would take much longer and they were not keen to do it that way. I got onto Customer Care and they undertook to find a dealer who could do the job on a ramp and get back to me today. No reply yet! As I am going away for a few days I guess I can wait a bit longer. Are there any Peugeot owners out there who have had the mods at a dealer who is within 60 miles of Crewe?

[AndyStothert]

This last post by Colin is very significant.

It isn't the first time Peugeot have said that the gearbox modifications aren't a complete solution - just an improvement.

Most folk don't think a complete cure is possible without a totally redesigned gearbox, and this is the exact same gearbox intervention which Fiat are now attempting. And, as we suspect (strongly) that the 2.3 engine and its gearbox are now out of production, the chances of a redesigned box are nil.

Yesterday they (Fiat) refused to discuss extending warranties on the transmission after the modifications have been carried out so it will be very interesting to see how Peugeot are going to deal with the situation.

We should all be seeking a lifetime warranty on the transmission - even after the work has been carried.

This would allay all fears of reduced resale values, or subsequent owners picking up the bill for failed components in years to come.

[Brambles]

Would it be correct to assume here then Peugeot are only replacing the gears set, whereas FIAT are replacing gears, clutch set. engine mounts and hydraulic pipe.

 

To m eit looks like FIAT are addressing a few issues like knock on starting, judder and burning clutches. Peugoet are only addressing the the high gear Ratio which will help with clucth burn, help reduce chances of judder but not enough to really make as much difference as the FIAT fix.

 

All very Bizarre!

[spospe]

This may sound like a digression, but please stay with me for a bit.

 

Do any of you remember the launch of the Mini, back in 1959? It soon became apparent that the Mini suffered from two serious design faults. The first was that the floor pan was attached to the body shell incorrectly; allowing water to enter the passenger compartment, soaking the carpets and the second was "The Knock on Lock". The Knock on Lock was caused by wear in the CV joints and everyone buying a second-hand Mini was advised to take it on a run and do a full 360 degree turn on a car park with the steering on full lock to test for this noise. If the Nock on Lock was detected, then you either walked away, or negotiated a healthy discount.

 

The manufacturers of the original Mini quickly identified and corrected both the above design faults, but to the best of my memory never compensated the owners (certainly not for the Knock on Lock, which only appeared after the one year guarantee period had expired).

 

Fast-forward 50 years to 2009. Anyone buying an x250 based vehicle must be advised to take it to a 1 in 4 or steeper hill and do a controlled reverse up it.

 

Current owners of x250 vehicles have a major problem in that when the time comes to sell, who will buy?

 

My point in all the above is that ALL owners of x250 vans are in the same boat, whether their particular van judders or not, it will be viewed with suspicion by any prospective buyer. It is up to ALL owners to make a fuss now whilst the heat is on, delay and you could be left nursing a huge financial loss when the time comes to sell.

 

A design fault is a design fault and who wants to buy a vehicle with a built-in fault?

 

[urbanracer]

Brambles - 2009-04-02 8:52 PM

 

Would it be correct to assume here then Peugeot are only replacing the gears set, whereas FIAT are replacing gears, clutch set. engine mounts and hydraulic pipe.

 

To m eit looks like FIAT are addressing a few issues like knock on starting, judder and burning clutches. Peugoet are only addressing the the high gear Ratio which will help with clucth burn, help reduce chances of judder but not enough to really make as much difference as the FIAT fix.

 

All very Bizarre!

 

Peugeot are doing nothing to help anyone with a 5 speed box and I have that in writing.

[tonyg3nwl]

Brambles - 2009-04-02 8:52 PM

 

Would it be correct to assume here then Peugeot are only replacing the gears set, whereas FIAT are replacing gears, clutch set. engine mounts and hydraulic pipe.

All very Bizarre!

 

According to my latest information from my customer service adviser at Peugeot, in my case they are intending to replace gears set and Clutch as well. The only problem is that they cannot give me a reliable date for the work as no clutch is available at present. Adviser has stated that he as requested urgent priority to my case as I have holiday booked and ferry

 

Last dealer advice was estimatimg 14th April for spares, but no guarantees

 

keep hoping !

 

tonyg3nwl

[urbanracer]

tonyg3nwl - 2009-04-03 4:53 PM

 

Brambles - 2009-04-02 8:52 PM

 

Would it be correct to assume here then Peugeot are only replacing the gears set, whereas FIAT are replacing gears, clutch set. engine mounts and hydraulic pipe.

All very Bizarre!

 

According to my latest information from my customer service adviser at Peugeot, in my case they are intending to replace gears set and Clutch as well. The only problem is that they cannot give me a reliable date for the work as no clutch is available at present. Adviser has stated that he as requested urgent priority to my case as I have holiday booked and ferry

 

Last dealer advice was estimatimg 14th April for spares, but no guarantees

 

keep hoping !

 

 

Is yours a 5 or 6 speed box ?

 

tonyg3nwl

[rupert123]

The post by spospe is surely a joke. He advises anyone buying a Fiat based to van to make a controlled reverse ascent of a 1 in 4 or steeper hill. This is a typical of some of the rubbish being given as advice on here. Test it in reverse of course but be sensible about it, is their a van made that could reverse up a steeper than 1 in 4 without some protest, if indeed at all. I would not certainly try it even on a 1 in 4 especially if loaded.

[Guest Tracker]

You've made some sensible contributions of late Rupert so why go and spoil it now by being insulting?

 

I would expect my van to reverse up a 1 in 4 hill and so should everyone else.

 

Given that reverse gear is lower than 1st gear you would expect any van to pull away from a standing start and, albeit slowly and with plenty of revs, pull itself to the top of the gradient in first gear and thereby, by default, so it should also be able to in reverse gear.

 

Any vehicle incapable of such performance is in my view surely unfit for purpose?

 

Allow me to digress but, in the 'old days' the done thing if you got stuck on a steep hill and unable to pull away in first you turned the car (if possible) and reversed up it. If not you reversed down the hill either had another run at it, went another way, or reversed up it all the way - and they always went up backwards 'cos it was a lower gear!

 

So why on earth should we accept any vehicle incapable of reversing up a one in four hill?

[rupert123]

Well ok Rich but I disagree. First he said steeper than 1 4 so did I. I only said I personally would not expect to reverse easily up a 1 in 4 hill, certainly for any distance. A car is one thing a fully loaded 3 ton plus van with a small engine is quite another. How many roads are their of steeper than 1 in 4 anyway, this is an unrealistic test. A loaded van backwards up a 1 in 3, all you are going to do is create lots of smoke not only from the clutch but from the driving wheels especially if it is a front wheel drive with most of the weight on the rear wheels as most are now.

[davenewellhome]

Tracker - 2009-04-03 7:01 PM

 

You've made some sensible contributions of late Rupert so why go and spoil it now by being insulting?

 

I would expect my van to reverse up a 1 in 4 hill and so should everyone else.

 

Given that reverse gear is lower than 1st gear you would expect any van to pull away from a standing start and, albeit slowly and with plenty of revs, pull itself to the top of the gradient in first gear and thereby, by default, so it should also be able to in reverse gear.

 

Any vehicle incapable of such performance is in my view surely unfit for purpose?

 

Allow me to digress but, in the 'old days' the done thing if you got stuck on a steep hill and unable to pull away in first you turned the car (if possible) and reversed up it. If not you reversed down the hill either had another run at it, went another way, or reversed up it all the way - and they always went up backwards 'cos it was a lower gear!

 

So why on earth should we accept any vehicle incapable of reversing up a one in four hill?

 

Just this once (I'm not planning on making a habit of this Richard, people might get the wrong idea ;-) ) I'm going to agree with Richard! In 1979 I passed my driving test and it was snowing, the test hill was coated in three inches of snow with black ice underneath and we were in a Mini! After the first attempt (which was countered by copious amounts of wheel-spin and no forward motion) I asked if there was anything that dictated the hill start had to be done on forward gear? ;-) "not to my knowledge" said the examiner, so I did a three point turn on a one in god knows what but it was darned steep hill and happily did a reverse hill start and drove all the way to the top backwards. Passed my test first time!

 

The point is that traditionally,and for good reason, reverse should be the lowest gear in the box!

 

D.

[spospe]

If a vehicle can do a hill start going forwards, then it is reasonable to expect that it will be able to start on the same hill in reverse.

 

As Dave Newell has mentioned, I also have had to reverse up a steep hill (I live on a 1 in 5) when there has been snowfall and front-wheel drive has not had enough traction.

 

Does the x250 have a maximum gradient quoted for hill climbing? If it does then it must apply to both forward and reverse directions of travel. Reverse should normally be lower than first so as to allow for delicate reversing manoeuvres (due to reduced visibility leading to slower motion).

 

What on earth were the designers thinking of?

 

[rupert123]

spospe - 2009-04-03 10:09 PM

 

If a vehicle can do a hill start going forwards, then it is reasonable to expect that it will be able to start on the same hill in reverse.

 

As Dave Newell has mentioned, I also have had to reverse up a steep hill (I live on a 1 in 5) when there has been snowfall and front-wheel drive has not had enough traction.

 

Does the x250 have a maximum gradient quoted for hill climbing? If it does then it must apply to both forward and reverse directions of travel. Reverse should normally be lower than first so as to allow for delicate reversing manoeuvres (due to reduced visibility leading to slower motion).

 

What on earth were the designers thinking of?

 

Ah 1 in 5 now, I to would expect to manage this but would point out you said greater than 1 in 4 by which I assumed you meant 1 in 3. However you seem to think, as does Dave Newell that having a reverse higher than first is unusual. Well it was in the period he quoted some 30 years ago but not any more. Six speed boxes changed all that, for example the transit 137ps engine has a first gear of 5.44 and reverse of 4.94, the 115ps first of 4.20 and reverse 3.60. Now I am an old fellow now but try to keep up to date, if you both want to live in the 1970's fine, suggest you buy a van from that period and you can then reverse up the hills backwards all you want.

[Mel B]

rupert123 - 2009-04-03 6:47 PM

 

The post by spospe is surely a joke. He advises anyone buying a Fiat based to van to make a controlled reverse ascent of a 1 in 4 or steeper hill. This is a typical of some of the rubbish being given as advice on here. Test it in reverse of course but be sensible about it, is their a van made that could reverse up a steeper than 1 in 4 without some protest, if indeed at all. I would not certainly try it even on a 1 in 4 especially if loaded.

 

If there are limitations on how/where you should use a motorhome based on the new Fiat X250 then this 'limitation' should have been made plain when people purchased their vehicles - it was NOT. It was quite the opposite - Fiat made a real song and dance about their 'special chassis' which was designed specifically for motorhome converters, and therefore purchasers of motorhomes built on this chassis could reasonably expect to be able to adequately manoeuvre a motorhome without any problem at all - and at least as well, if not better, than the older model Fiats - whoever heard of a company making a chassis that was WORSE than the outgoing one! This also goes for the 'vans built on the normal chassis too - again it should be as good as, if not better, than the out-going model.

 

You can't really blame the weight of the vehicles for causing the problem - as some of the lighter van conversions are also having problems too?

 

Your are entitled to your opinion, but just because you don't agree with other's views, just as I don't necessarily agree with yours, it doesn't mean that the other view is 'rubbish'.

 

I have no doubt that there is a real problem with some of these vehicles - of all shapes, types and possibly all engine sizes - the problem is that no-one knows for sure how big the sum of the 'some' is! I don't, you don't, even Fiat (and Peugeot) don't.

 

Tell me - what would you do if you found yourself in the position of having no choice but to reverse up a 1 in 4 hill, lets say that have found your way blocked and no way to turn round? Would you ring your recovery service and tell them that you daren't reverse your nice new shiney motorhome just in case you broke it? Somehow I don't think they'd come out and 'rescue' you so then what ... spend the rest of your 'holiday' (and life!) stuck there??? Not an option is it really. This is not hypothetical - it actually happens, and can do so through no fault of your own, no matter how careful you are not to go down steep roads, you can't always avoid them ... and why should you? The vehicle should be able to do what it was 'supposedly' designed to do ... reverse properly with a motorhome body on it!

 

IMO anyone considering buying a Fiat X250 based motorhome or van conversion would be very unwise not to try reversing it on a 1 in 4 gradient before committing to purchasing it. This is a fault that is known to affect some vehicles ... without a crystal ball there is no way to know if the one that you're looking to purchase is one of the afflicted ones so all you can do, as a 'normal' human without psychic powers, is to try the simple test. Surely that is much better than thinking "It'll be okay" and then finding out you've got one of the 'judderers' and having your ownership ruined with all of the subsequent problems, wrangling and worry that goes with it.

 

One last thought ... If you bought a car and had the same problem with that, would you accept it?

 

I haven't got an X250 based van, and I wouldn't have one no matter how good the rest of the vehicle is, not until I know for sure that there is a genuine fix that works which I sincerely hope there will be for all those poor owners who cannot enjoy their vans as they intended.

 

 

[rolandrat]

Here are some quotes from a Trading Standards leaflet I received in the post this morning:.,

The goods are faulty but I only give credit notes not refunds. WRONG. You have a right to repair, replacement or refund. Only accept a cradit note if you want to purchase other goods from the same trader.

I am sorry you cannot find anything else you like, but I don't refund money on credit notes. RIGHT. You have no right to a refund once you have accepted a credit note.

The goods are faulty but I don't give refunds, you'll have to choose something else. WRONG. You have a right to repair, replacement or refund. Only accept an alternative if that's what you want.

The problem is due to fair wear and tear or misuse. You'll have to pay for the repair. RIGHT. Fair wear and tear or missuse is not a fault. The trader is not liable in this case.

The notice says no refunds I cannot do anything for you WRONG. These notices are illegal and cannot take away your rights.

The guarantee has run out so you will have to pay for the repair. WRONG. If the goods were faulty when purchased it doesn't matter when the fault is discovered. However when you have had the goods some time, It may be difficult to prove that they were faulty when bought.

The repair may take some time because the parts have to be imported. RIGHT. As long the trader fixes the goods in a reasonable time and without causing you significant inconvenience youmay have to accept some delay.

The goods are secondhand so I do not have any responsibility. WRONG. Secondhand goods must be in a reasonable condition for their age and the price you paid.

You will have to send the faulty goods back to the manufacturer. WRONG. The trader who sold you the goods is responsible for all the problems.

You're to late. You must complain within 14 days. WRONG. You must complain as soon as you discover the fault, but there is no fixed time limit.

The above mentioned quotes might help if anyone is in dispute with a dealer over the ongoing transmission problems.

[tonyg3nwl]

 

 

 

Is yours a 5 or 6 speed box ?

 

tonyg3nwl

 

Yes, a Autocruise Stargazer on a Peugeot boxer 2.2l six speed box machine. purchased October last year 58 plate and before I was aware of the problems. Had a caravan before but changed back to motorhome at Shepton mallet show. Hasty decision maybe, but optimistic it will be resolved, just taking time.

 

I am happy with the van layout,, only tested for judder after stumbling on the MMM saga.

 

tonyg3nwl