spospe Posted April 4, 2009 Share Posted April 4, 2009 Rupert 123 If I can drive up a hill, I expect to be able to reverse up it also. If I can do a hill start on a hill forwards, I expect to be able to do that in reverse also. What’s wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 spospe - 2009-04-04 10:25 PM Rupert 123 If I can drive up a hill, I expect to be able to reverse up it also. If I can do a hill start on a hill forwards, I expect to be able to do that in reverse also. What’s wrong with that? Nothing at all. I am just trying to point out the way things are, something some people find hard to take. Most six speed vehicles I know of have a reverse gear higher than first now, probably because you can now have a greater spread of ratios going forwards. Manufacturers, rightly in my opinion, think you use first for hill starts more than reverse so fit a reverse ratio they calculate will be ok and a low first gear for the more likely situation. The answer to the problem is not as simple as it sounds, with a very low reverse gear and a heavy load it it all to easy to spin the wheels so a compromise is needed. The only real answer is to have a two speed reverse but that is not going to happen. I wonder how many owners of six speed gearbox vans, other than Fiat, have tried to reverse up a steep slope and what the van reaction was. I fully accept that Fiat got this a little wrong and in extreme circumstances this shows up so the ratio should be lowered a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevef Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Hi Fellow Judder sufferers; You might rememphoto's of the ber that FIAT was not very impressed when the new reverse gear/clutch, gear shaft,sync, actuator appeared on various web sites, also the original parts I managed to photograph. Well after having all the available mods done by my great Garage AMC(AutoClinic) Chelmsford, I can report that I see a 70% improvement although I now have a whine when engaging reverse which I never had before. I still await the fitting of the new RHD actuator pie, but dont hold out much hope it will improve things. My real concern is the way FIAT has tried to manipulate events and control things,to the point of reading the riot act to my garage for them letting me photograph the original and new parts. I have attached the letter I sent to FIAT as a warning to you all, about big Brother, whatever you do dont bow down to them. We are in the right , it is there crap design which got us into this mess not ours, who only paid out hard earned cash for the problems. Fiat letter30th March 2009 ver 2.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Rupert 1232 and others. Having passed my driving test in 1959 I can remember when automobiles were designed and built by auto engineers. Today it seems computer wizz kids with a CAD package designs them. It would seem over the last decade little road testing is done, if it doesn’t work change a bit until it does. Little seems to be kept for a new model even if it works. Reverse as most would agree ought to be lower than 1st gear to a computer wizz kid it is only used to reverse into or out of a parking place on a supermarket car park. Who in their right mind would reverse up a hill??? Explain this having been to the Pickering show and returning to the A1via Sutton Bank halfway down the road is blocked by a lorry with a Cornish mans steam land rover, the road is blocked both up and down heavy lifting equipment is needed this is coming from Scarborough all the vehicles on the uphill side are required to reverse as the road is too narrow to turn. Sorry Mr Policeman this is an X250 we are not allowed to reverse?? On another point say Fiat do a revised X250 new gearbox and engine plus all the other bits How much is an old model X250 worth then. The higher reverse gear has been in the Peugeot Boxers from 2000 it is not a new fault how many have shouted about this???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 Steve's post mirrors the findings of others who have had the modifications done in so far as it has resulted in an improvement but not a solution. All also report the apperance of a whining noise in reverse which wasn't previously there. This is obviously not satisfactory, and suggests that some serious engineering compromises have been made. Quite where this is going from here is hard to say, but it is now obvious that we are being offered something which will not do the job properly. As Peugeot are admitting that these modificatison aren't an ideal solution, we seem to be in position where we've been sold a vehicle which cannot be rectified, and some sort of extended warranty or further modifications are necessary. This really is an incredible mess of Fiat's making. It was clear back in 2006, before the vehicle was even launched, that this defect was present, and still this rumbles on unsorted. Anyone buying one of these 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducatos really does need their head examining if they have prior knowledge of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I wouldn't be overly worried by the whine in reverse gear. The actual reverse gears themselves are straight cut gears which will usually give a whine when spinning quickly. Because of the revised ratio the gears are spinning faster and therefore whining. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 It is my understanding that the previous reverse gear was a semi-bevel cut gear with synchro, and I was led to believe (by Fiat) that there would be no reduction in specification with the changes. The change in gear whine is apparently very noticable, whilst the change in reverse gear ratio is only 10%, so the engine speed increase probably doesn't account for it. One possible reason for installing a totally straight cut gear is that it absorbs less power from the engine and more of it goes to the transmisison of power, but another school of thought is that it is just cheaper. However someone more qualified than I thinks it is the fact that some of bits are new whilst others aren't and that it may be the mis-mating of these which is causing the excessive whine. Which scenario is accurate we don't know, and I don't suppose that Fiat will be telling us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred grant Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 ow many of these x250s do you own then davenewellathome my biddy? presume you run a fleet. do these whining ones run in, or dus they get worst with mileage? only time will tell me ansums, an fred just aint got the time. frottagefred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 No Fred I don't run any X2/50s nor do I run any tractors but I have taken a few to pieces and put them back together again (tractors not X2/50s (lol) ). I have seen the insides of a lot of gearboxes and I've never seen one that had anything other than a straight cut reverse gear and the reason is simple. Reverse gear is used a lot less than forward gears and for (usually) shorter periods of time therefore it is not a problem if it makes a little noise. Straight cut gears transmit more power than helical gears its true but this is not usually a reason for straight cut reverse gears, its simply down to cost, straight cut gears are cheaper to machine than helical gears. Many years ago in the days of racing Minis straight cut boxes were available (at a cost) and they used to whine like a stuck pig. I'm not trying to belittle the work of Andy or anyone else regarding the juddering Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen X2/50 vehicles but come on guys lets not get hung up on something that really is not an issue (or at least should not be an issue). D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davenewellhome Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 One more minor point, there is absolutely no point in fitting a synchro to reverse as the purpose of synchro (abbreviation of synchroniser) is to math the speed of different sections of the gearbox during gearchanges. As reverse gear would only normally be selected when stationary there are no moving parts to synchronise at the time of engagement therefore synchro is not required and totally wasted expense. does anyone believe that the Sevel group fit synchro to reverse? D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Ford Transit vans from at least the MK5 series onwards have syncro on reverse and what a wonderful thing it is too! The benefit is that you can swiftly engage reverse without having to pause and this means that slow speed manoeuvring can be carried out easily. Also, if you are stuck in soft ground, it is possible to 'rock' the vehicle back and forth easily so as to maximise the chances of getting out of the rut. :D Sorry about the diversion from the x250 story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Collings Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Dave, The Ford MTX 75 gearbox ( north south and east west versions) as used from the 1980s on their over 1800 cc engines and still in use (Transits included) does have synchro on reverse. It must as you say be more expensive but uncle Henry usually spends money for a reason. I have had a good look at all the pics I took of the sectioned 2006 Ducato transmission, I cannot be totally certain there are no straight cut gears but it does look like it might have synchro on reverse. If there genuinly has been a redisign perhaps it was possible to get the ratios needed by reverting to straight cut gears( possibly more compact), along with the extra noise this does tend to tie in with Andy's info. The old engineering chestnut about the noise being due running old and newparts together is totally innapropriate as it refered to running worn and new parts together. Possibly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 I wouldn't want to make a habit of it but I agree with Dave's view as in the 'old days' when I rebuilt a gearbox or differential it sometimes resulted in a whine which I was told then is quite normal when new parts align with used and it is the price you pay for the savings from not replacing the whole unit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 6, 2009 Author Share Posted April 6, 2009 Rich, Don't worry - you weren't agreeing or disagreeing with Dave - none of us know for sure what we're talking about, and Dave had probably had a pint or three by that time anyway, so he won't have noticed who was agreeing with who about what. The main thrust of what I was trying to say (before the technoraks got hold of it) was that all the owners who have had the gearbox modifications done thus far have found that there is an improvement, but not sufficiently to call it a solution. With this in mind, anyone buying one must not now be under any illusions that a satisfactory fix is available, and that buying a 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducato is inviting future problems - even if the dealer agrees to get the 'fix' done before purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Thanks Andy - I'm not buying one of these wretched things no matter how much discount is offered - oh I dunno - a 30% discount might tempt me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everhopeful Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 On the bright side, at least a crunchy and noisy reverse will differentiate the modded vans from the unmodded. *-) In a few years time it will be "Does that van you're selling have a whine in reverse? No! Well stick it then!! Only the noisy ones are any good!" 8-) I know. Keep taking the pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Last week Fiat carried the transmission modifications to my van, I have just come back from a weekend away with the van, what a difference reversing, nice and smooth, before the modifications it with judder in protest reversing on the flat, to date I have not tried again on a steep hill. My Autotrail Cheynne 660 2.3 on a Maxi 4 Tn chassis is a heavy van with a overhang 50% of the wheel base, which in my opinion extreme. The 2.3 lacks the bottom end torque of the 3 litre engines, the conversion should have been built on a Alko chassis. On hind sight I am not suprised this van judders. As regards the whine in reverse, yes they are straight cut gears, there will be production tolerance difference between gear sets, some will whine more than others, all straight cut gears whine. Todate most of us have been concerned with the vibration rather than the whine, however, if you feel the reverse gear set clunck on take up and a howl from the transmission, you will know you gear set are well outside the tolerance range or the mechanic has made a severe stuff up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandM Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I have sent an email to customerrelations@fiat.com as follows (and if everyone who has the problem would do similarly we might get it sorted):- You replied to my email on 3 December 2008 when you said you would have remedial measures in place in February. It is now April and you have not contacted me further. I have read in various journals that in some cases you have replaced engine mountings which reduce engine vibrations but do not cure the problem. The problem is that in reverse the vehicle travels too quickly for safety. The engine vibrations while engaging the gear are just a warning of the problem. Excessive clutch wear is inevitable due to the gear being too high and engine vibrations could be damaging. Damage could occur more frquently if firmer engine mountings were used. I am told that engaging reverse on a 1:5 gradient is likely to cause serious damage to clutch and gearbox. This causes me considerable concern as I am due to drive over high mountains in mainland Europe quite soon. Hopefully we will not have to turn round by reversing up a steep slope, or better stilll you will have rectified the problem in time. I am aware that your service relating to problems can be excellent. A friend had turbo problems with new motorhome based on a new Fiat Ducatto while travelling near Barcellona in January and could not speak highly enough of the technical support your Agent received and the consumer relations support he received, in both Spanish and English. The Fiat Agent I use is Rockingham Cars at Corby and I should be grateful if you would supply them with the parts needed for warranty work to make my motorhome reverse at a reasonable speed and to reduce engine vibrations when reverse gear is engaged. The Safety aspect is a considerable concern since the driver's attention is unduly distracted with the difficulty of getting into reverse gear, the vibrations and because the vehicle reverses too fast. Should a pedestrian be injured the driver would probably get the blame but it could be an accident which might not have happened but for the fault and and delays in putting it right. I should be pleased to receive a reply and for you to set in motion full remedial work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dshague Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Clutch gone on 2yr old van.Juddergatehttp://www.motorhomefun.co.uk/motorhome-chat/11376-clutch-gone-2yr-old-van-juddergate.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 RandM - 2009-04-07 6:52 PM I have sent an email to customerrelations@fiat.com as follows (and if everyone who has the problem would do similarly we might get it sorted):- You replied to my email on 3 December 2008 when you said you would have remedial measures in place in February. It is now April and you have not contacted me further. I have read in various journals that in some cases you have replaced engine mountings which reduce engine vibrations but do not cure the problem. The problem is that in reverse the vehicle travels too quickly for safety. The engine vibrations while engaging the gear are just a warning of the problem. Excessive clutch wear is inevitable due to the gear being too high and engine vibrations could be damaging. Damage could occur more frquently if firmer engine mountings were used. I am told that engaging reverse on a 1:5 gradient is likely to cause serious damage to clutch and gearbox. This causes me considerable concern as I am due to drive over high mountains in mainland Europe quite soon. Hopefully we will not have to turn round by reversing up a steep slope, or better stilll you will have rectified the problem in time. I am aware that your service relating to problems can be excellent. A friend had turbo problems with new motorhome based on a new Fiat Ducatto while travelling near Barcellona in January and could not speak highly enough of the technical support your Agent received and the consumer relations support he received, in both Spanish and English. The Fiat Agent I use is Rockingham Cars at Corby and I should be grateful if you would supply them with the parts needed for warranty work to make my motorhome reverse at a reasonable speed and to reduce engine vibrations when reverse gear is engaged. The Safety aspect is a considerable concern since the driver's attention is unduly distracted with the difficulty of getting into reverse gear, the vibrations and because the vehicle reverses too fast. Should a pedestrian be injured the driver would probably get the blame but it could be an accident which might not have happened but for the fault and and delays in putting it right. I should be pleased to receive a reply and for you to set in motion full remedial work. Send a copy to VOSA as well if you need the address just ask (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 Just a bit of info' regarding straight cut gears. Although they are noisier than bevel gears, they are also considerably stronger as they mesh al lot better and there are no sideways forces involved. So donn't worry about the slight whine. Lets face it, if it had they previous engine in, you wouldn't even be able to hear it over the diesel clatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Fiat carried out the transmission modifications last week, reversing on the flat or onto my 1:40 drive vast improvement, now no transmision vibration. at the time I was very pleased. However this morning, I thought I would fill up with diesel and try my van on a hill, nothing too steep. The van struggled and vibrate at least as bad as prior to the transmission vibrations. 1200 rpm van stalled, 1500 rpm slipping the clutch severe vibration, about 20 odd metres was enough and I aborted the test. I have informed Fiat they informed there are no further modifications, but will investigate the problem and open a new case file. I am pleased with the workmanship and proffesional attituted of the dealer who carried out the modifications. Howerer, you cant believe how disapointed I am :$ :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted April 8, 2009 Author Share Posted April 8, 2009 I have just spoken to an owner (2.3 litre 6 speed Adria Coral) who had the work done on the gearbox and he is very very disappointed. Disillusioned even. Besides the howling noise in reverse it is now juddering in 1st gear as well as reverse, and he thinks the modifications have introduced more problems, rather than solving any. My own van has gone in this morning for the work to be carried out, and from being cautiously optimistic about it I think I'm now dreading picking it up again. You've got to wonder what Fiat are playing at here - they seem to be spending (wasting) millions on faffing about not improving things. The man who I have just spoken to is thinking of asking Fiat to put his gearbox back into the condition it was prior to modification. Where and what next? We all know now that this particular gearbox/engine combination is being abandoned by Fiat, and that the current production box will not fit the 2.3 engine, but would they not have been better spending the cash making it do so? Rather than throwing it away on solutions which aren't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 Brambles - 2009-03-31 9:34 PM peter - 2009-03-31 9:12 PM Brambles - 2009-03-31 8:58 PM Hi Peter, The RHD and LHD have different clutch pipes or hoses. Part of the mod is to replace the pipes.So! it's just a pipe you can get made up anywhere. No it is not I am afraid to say. It is a FIAT supplied part. Just had a phone call, no clutch pipes in the country, no idea when they will be available :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 This is getting to be a long running farce!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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