Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Melvin]

Hi Yeti

 

I have a photocopy of a Fiat Service News supplied to trading standards.

 

'It has a Copyright by Fiat Auto - Printed 24/11/2006'

 

all versions

 

1000 0 000 AA ENGINE

Shuddering during take oof on a hill in reverse - network Information

 

it is the 1300 rpm advice, hopefully this should help

[PSHORT]

we took delivery of our 3litre 6 speed panel van conversion in June 2007, had been on order since September 2006. It judders when reversing on the flat which can be controlled by slipping the clutch. Have not had the bottle to try on a steep hill. Also had burning clutch in 3 point turns and reversing on to ramps.

Cheers

Paul

[yeti]

Paul

Have you reported this to Fiat? If not I urge you to do so,it is the non reports which are falsifying the figures and Fiat are denying a problem exists with 3 litre models.

Min went reversing onto a pitch in Lancashire,imagine a single track road and you had to revers uphill.

 

[David Whiting]

French Hymer BC574 on Ducato LHD chassis No: ZFA2440007698443, with 5-speed gearbox, Iveco 2.8 litre turbo-D engine.

This chassis left the Fiat factory autumn 2005 for the Hymer 2006 model, first registered here in France January 2007.

 

Following our registered letter of complaint to the Director of Fiat France last week concerning the failure of the front wheel bearings (repaired under guarantee), 3 attempts by Fiat agents to rectify the intermittent failure of the handbrake when hot, and the reverse gear judder when reversing up a steep incline, we have just now had a preliminary reply today by phone.

Fiat know that our complaint has been reported to our camping car club, who through their participation with the French Automobile Association will provide us with legal support (as they have done against our new Hymer numerous faults) to take an action in justice.

We now have to take the vehicle to a Fiat dealer of our choice to verify the fault, and Fiat will then arrange for a gearbox modification to be done at their expense.

We have yet to see what this entails and if it works – will let you know the result.

 

[David Whiting]

French Hymer BC574 on Ducato LHD chassis No: ZFA2440007698443, with 5-speed gearbox, Iveco 2.8 litre turbo-D engine.

This chassis left the Fiat factory autumn 2005 for the Hymer 2006 model, first registered here in France January 2007.

 

Following our registered letter of complaint to the Director of Fiat France last week concerning the failure of the front wheel bearings (repaired under guarantee), 3 attempts by Fiat agents to rectify the intermittent failure of the handbrake when hot, and the reverse gear judder when reversing up a steep incline, we have just now had a preliminary reply today by phone.

Fiat know that our complaint has been reported to our camping car club, who through their participation with the French Automobile Association will provide us with legal support (as they have done against our new Hymer numerous faults) to take an action in justice.

We now have to take the vehicle to a Fiat dealer of our choice to verify the fault, and Fiat will then arrange for a gearbox modification to be done at their expense.

We have yet to see what this entails and if it works – will let you know the result.

 

[PSHORT]

Hi Yeti,

You bet I registered it with Fiat right at the beginning of this sorry saga, they 'say' mine is due for a 'fix' in the next batch whatever that means.

Thankyou for your concern

Paul

[tonyg3nwl]

tonyg3nwl - 2009-04-10 12:57 PM

 

Hi everyone. I have just received an email stating that my local dealer now has the replacement clutch for my vehicle (Peugeot Boxer based Autocruise Stargazer), and the dealer will contact me to arrange for the work to be carried out. The other parts were supposed to be already there.

 

As they are closed over Easter, it looks possible that next week I just might have a judder free van .

 

Keep hoping!

I will report back once work is done.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

Booked in for 0900 tomorrow(wed 15th). They want it for 5 working days!! Long enough to take it to italy and back???

 

Confirmed proposed fixes are replacement clutch,and gearbox bits and pieces.

 

still holding my breath.

 

tonyg3nwl

[Mel B]

Tony ... take a note of the mileage when you drop it off and again when you pick it up ... that way you'll know if they've been 'testing' it after the fix.

[jhorsf]

tonyg3nwl - 2009-04-14 7:36 PM

 

tonyg3nwl - 2009-04-10 12:57 PM

 

Hi everyone. I have just received an email stating that my local dealer now has the replacement clutch for my vehicle (Peugeot Boxer based Autocruise Stargazer), and the dealer will contact me to arrange for the work to be carried out. The other parts were supposed to be already there.

 

As they are closed over Easter, it looks possible that next week I just might have a judder free van .

 

Keep hoping!

I will report back once work is done.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

 

Booked in for 0900 tomorrow(wed 15th). They want it for 5 working days!! Long enough to take it to italy and back???

 

Confirmed proposed fixes are replacement clutch,and gearbox bits and pieces.

 

still holding my breath.

 

tonyg3nwl

 

perhaps they are going to hire it out for a few days to get some of the repairs expense back lol

[Guest peter]

David Whiting - 2009-04-14 11:41 AM

 

French Hymer BC574 on Ducato LHD chassis No: ZFA2440007698443, with 5-speed gearbox, Iveco 2.8 litre turbo-D engine.

This chassis left the Fiat factory autumn 2005 for the Hymer 2006 model, first registered here in France January 2007.

 

Following our registered letter of complaint to the Director of Fiat France last week concerning the failure of the front wheel bearings (repaired under guarantee), 3 attempts by Fiat agents to rectify the intermittent failure of the handbrake when hot, and the reverse gear judder when reversing up a steep incline, we have just now had a preliminary reply today by phone.

Fiat know that our complaint has been reported to our camping car club, who through their participation with the French Automobile Association will provide us with legal support (as they have done against our new Hymer numerous faults) to take an action in justice.

We now have to take the vehicle to a Fiat dealer of our choice to verify the fault, and Fiat will then arrange for a gearbox modification to be done at their expense.

We have yet to see what this entails and if it works – will let you know the result.

Since when did the 2.8 IDTD have a problem with reversing? If it did it's the first I've heard of it. This engine and gearbox is absolutely buletproof as far as I know. Sounds like you may have oil on the clutch.

[rolandrat]

I agree,

the 2.8 engine and gearbox in the previous model is bullet proof and trouble free, the only area of concern was the fuel consumption but that was partly my fault due to a heavy right foot now and then on French and Spanish motorways. :-D :-D

[spospe]

roland rat, what about all the reports in MMM of people suffering 5th gear failure on these models?

[David Whiting]

Well this new French Hymer 574 (2006 model) that we put on the road in January 2007 has done less than 30,000km, and had the left front wheel bearing changed twice. There is no oil on the clutch, and if there had been reversing to turn around on our French mountain roads any oil would have burnt off. As a former aircraft engineer, and spending my younger days rebuilding my pre-1930s cars and assisting with the Saab & Citroen works rally teams, I do know a bit about clutch mechanisms, all be it of yesteryear when the things were solid and reliable.

However, just returned from our local Fiat dealer to arrange for him to get the gearbox parts.

I had heard that the Hymer class A bodies cause can cause the radiator to leak on Ducato chassis. He confirmed that he has changed 3 for this problem, so there is another fault to watch out for. For much of its life our vehicle has been standing waiting for Hymer to fix the multiple faults – a nonstop battle as the German factory don’t want to know until they are threatened with legal action, as was our case. Hymer admit they have a problem with the micro switch embedded in the tap failing and have taken the matter up with their supplier. Our 1994 Hymer class A on a Citroen C25 chassis was superb with real wood fittings. This new Hymer is rubbish and cupboards began to fall apart, plus long delays on spare parts and endless trouble getting the vehicle repaired under guarantee, despite being a journalist directly in contact with the director of Hymer France. Mr. Hymer in Germany does not reply to our complaints.

Don’t waste your money on a new very expensive Hymer, especially on a Fiat chassis.

 

 

[rolandrat]

Hi Spospe,

the 5th gear problem was on the earlier 2.5 and 2.8 models, to be able to differentiate there was a cab facelift and new plastic lenses on the headlights plus a new motif on the later model which had a modified gearbox fitted. Although the earlier models could fail not all did but could easily be repaired as the 5th gear is like an add on attached to the end of the gearbox. The gearbox doesn,t have to come out to change it and isn't expensive to replace.

[colin]

David Whiting - 2009-04-15 7:21 PM

 

Well this new French Hymer 574 (2006 model) that we put on the road in January 2007 has done less than 30,000km, and had the left front wheel bearing changed twice.

 

I think wheel bearings are common fault on this model, hasen't Don had couple replaced on his Timberland?

[Derek Uzzell]

There was a well known 5th-gear-related problem with the 5-speed gearbox fitted to 1994-onwards Ducatos with 2.5litre/2.8litre motors. This persisted until (I think) around 2002, when the gearbox design was revised. A Ducato/Boxer having the revised gearbox (which seems to have cured the 5th-gear problem completely) can most easily be identified by the altered gear-selection pattern of the dashboard-mounted gear-lever.

 

To the best of my knowledge there were no 'reversing' problems with 1994-2006 Ducatos/Boxers - certainly nothing like the juddering/clutch problems that have shown up on 2006-onwards vehicles. An alternative lower 5th-gear ratio eventually became available for the 5-speed 'box (to address a potentially overly-high top-gear), but this did not affect reversing. There probably were different final-drive ratios according to whether the motors were installed in 'light' or 'heavy' chassis, and that would have an effect on reversing. There's no chance that the 'bits' being put in the 6-speed gearbox of current 2.3litre-engined Ducatos to lower the reverse-gear ratio would fit in David's Hymer's 5-speed transmission, so it will be interesting to learn what modifications are to be made.

[euroserv]

I know this is a bit (a lot) off topic, but if it keeps the thread alive.....

 

I have been reading above about wheel bearings.

The front wheel bearings on the 2002-2006 Ducato's were a right pain in the behind and I am absolutely sick of changing them but our X250 2006 onwards vans have not had any problems at all. Not one, and some of our 20 or so vans have done over 100,000 miles so I was most surprised to hear that there have been issues with the later van. Perhaps the vehicle in question had spent a long time sitting in a large puddle?

 

Just a thought before people start worrying about that.

 

Nick

[AndyStothert]

To confirm what Nick says about the wheel bearings being a pain in the bum on the old model - but with a new twist - our 2003 Citroen ruined one by 20,000 miles, and when I went in to the dealers they swapped both front hubs and bearings - and said they had been modified for the Citroen and Peugeot vans.

I haven't a clue if they were talking bull, but sure enough it had two new hubs and we had no further trouble.

Incidentally, since our new (well not so new anymore) Ducato had the gearbox modifications it has developed a very odd whine in second gear when under heavy acceleration. But only when the foot is buried quite deep.

Any ideas?

[PSHORT]

Andy

The bottom line is any regrets on having all the mods done?

Paul

[AndyStothert]

We like this van a lot - the custom built layout (similar to a shortened Morello) suits us fine, and it did/does(?) drive well going forwards.

But if I have a regret now it is that I ever bought the thing.

It is only recently that I've become completely disillusioned by all this, but the attitude of Fiat has been (besides dishonest) slightly incredible, and I don't think there is a complete solution available.

But because it would be just as dishonest of me to sell it to anyone else as it was of Fiat to knowingly sell it to me, it seems that I'm stuck with it. This is not a great situation to be in, so I suppose I'm just going to have to go along with whatever Fiat decide to do next.

 

 

[fred grant]

buy crysler me ansums?

 

f

[AndyStothert]

This thread originally kicked off in January 2008 as a result of Fiat's denial that a defect existed in the latest Ducato models and that the vibration and juddering in the transmisision was purely a 'characteristic' of the vehicle, and that multiple failures of the gearbox and clutch were unrelated to the vibration and juddering in the transmission caused by the overly high ratio of the reverse gear.

The reason this matter was put on this forum orginally was to try and confirm that the problem was indeed as widespread as was thought. After getting an immediate response from over 30 owners indicating that they were concerned about this, a discrete letter was placed in MMM asking if other owners were experiencing difficulties reversing their vehicles to make themselves known.

The result was a flood of responses, and along with a reference to this in Practical Motorhome (by Dave Newell) and the Motorcaravanners Club (by by Gentleman Jack Lloyd, or whatever nom de guerre he was using that moment) a total of about 500 dissatisfied owners made themselves heard.

Now bearing in mind that this defect only really becomes apparent in quite extreme circumstances on some vehicles and that many owners may not find themselves in these circumstances for months , or years even, this was a huge number of responses in such a short space of time.

And Fiat (and originally Peugeot too) still denied there was a defect on these vehicles.

Since then Peugeot have 'come clean' and admitted that the reverse gear ratio is too high for a vehicle of this nature, and Fiat have eventually been dragged (kicking screaming and fighting against it) into trying to

find a solution to a fault which is more and more beginning to look like it is unsolvable?

The problem we owners have now is that Fiat have almost cornered the market, so anyone wanting a new motorhome hasn't got a lot of choice but to buy one, and understandably, when somebody buys a new van, and the kindly affable smiling salesman tells them its all been sorted out, and not to worry, we all try to be optimists.

And, now that everyone knows these things can't reverse out of (or into) extreme situations we have all adjusted our driving techniques and routes to cope with this shortcoming.

But worst of all this is fast becoming old and repetitive news, and I'm beginning to wonder if the magazines and clubs are a bit fed up of the whole issue.

With new models (revised gearboxes and engines) expected later this year once Fiat have sold all the now defunct 2.3 litre and present format 3 litre models we will indeed be old news, and they will have very little to fear from the disgruntled present owners.

So can I ask everyone who either has one has one of these duff vehicles, or is thinking of getting one, to write (or email) to the magazines and clubs asking for publicity and help to ensure Fiat do find a viable way of either fixing these vans, or offering the security of an extended transferable warranty to give us all peace of mind for the future.

I know that this all sounds like a bit of a speech, but more than ever, I reckon we are all being messed about, and that Fiat's war of attrition is working.

[yeti]

Andy,

Still pestering only had the clutch replaced up to now. There are a lot of denyers who probaly only camp in the lowlands and never reverse onto a pitch nor do they meet a local bus coming in the opposite direction on a single track on a hill in Wales,Scotland,Yorkshire or any where else for that matter. Unless of course these denyers are all part of Fiats Web.

As for the magazines nearly everyone ,including the club magazinescarries a 2 page,even foldout advert for the Fiat Camper Chassis,so what is that worth in revenue?

Can we invoke the Freedom of information act to answer our questions?

This will kill the UK converters-mark my words.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi to all.

 

Yesterday late afternoon, I was advised that my van was ready, all fixed and road tested. They have upgraded the gearbox to the "same as the current production ones" by replacing the innards, and have replaced the clutch with a heavier duty one. They will be sending me a copy of their warranty claim, once their paperwork has been processed , so at present I dont have any parts details etc.

 

The good news is that reversing up a slope is easier on lower engine revs than previously, only slight throttle is required to prevent stalling and I am able to engage the drive fully and reverse at a more comfortable (ie slower) speed than previously.

 

The bad news is that SOME judder is still present, although I feel that there is SOME improvement, but not a total cure by any means.

I reported my findings back by Phone to the dealer (Hartwells of Ferndown) and emphasised that I was recording the message)

Service reception responded by informing me they had carried out the work as stated by Peugeot in the warranty file and that they were not aware of any further mods that could be done.

 

As an experiment, I then took my Peugeot 406 estate 2.2ltr 5 speed (2001 model) device to the same slope and carried out the same reversing manouver. It is a much lighter vehicle of course, but I was amazed that I could sense some judder with that as well. Nothing like the same extent as the van. I did this as a comparison to see if I could draw any conclusions. I cant !

 

Overnight, I have had further thoughts re "not fit for the purpose" comments etc, and wonder how one could sensibly expect any success pursueing that direction. I conclude that such a course would be extremely unlikely to succeed as the vehicle will go forwards, is a motorhome, has sleeping and cooking and toilet facilities etc and will go backwards albeit with some juddering, and has been "fixed" by the manufacturers "best efforts" and within a" reasonable timescale"

I dont know if Advertising standards might have a view regarding the base vehicle "specially for motorhome...." etc.

 

I am now going to enjoy using my vehicle as often as possible and be aware of the potential problem as far as possible of backing up Mount Everest !!!

 

Tonyg3nwl

[PSHORT]

Tony,

As I am in much the same area(between Southampton and Portsmouth) I would be interested to know which garage you used as when mine is called in I want someone who has some experience on the procedure. Was yours their first such conversion I wonder,?

Paul