Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Melvin]

Videomaster,

 

who was the dealer

[PSHORT]

Videomaster

Fiat or Pug base?

Paul

[Corky 8]

Andy, seeing how you have gone through all what you have with this Fiat fiasco , in Hindsight would you still have gone through with having the Modification done ( I now say Modification as its not a fix ) Knowing what you now know ?. I,m perturbed by the fact my Vehicle drive really well Forwards without any noises (but judders in reverse ) and hearing of your and others experience of first gear whine and now your sixth gear noise, weather its worth just having the heavier Clutch plate fitted along with the dampers they fit. and avoiding what seems to be more developing problems , It looks like a case of damned if you do and damned if you dont.

[Guest Tracker]

On our way to Peterborough last Friday afternoon at 4.00 pm the bl##dy radiator sprang a leak at Tewksbury.

The local dealers there (Warners) were fantastic - they got me a new rad overnight and fitted it Saturday morning and we were on our way by 11.00 am - and the best bit was that it was all free under warranty.

What fantastic service and all with a smile and copious amounts of free coffee - at least I think it was coffee?

Anyway - I digress - as the real reason for posting this was to ask afflicted X250 owners their view on the Warners service managers answer to avoid reversing judder.

He seemed to be a very knowledgeable and genuinely helpful chap and seems to be really switched on to motorhomers and their needs.

He reckons that it IS a matter of driver technique and the only way to reverse smoothly is to slowly let the clutch almost fully out as you reverse and then dip and partly engage continuously so that the clutch pedal does not remain in one constant slipping position but is either mostly engaged or fully disengaged.

Now I am not one to tell all you experienced guys how to drive but it would be good to have some feedback as to whether this technique actually works or not?

Come to think of it this is the way that I was taught to reverse for longer distances when you need to go slower than a fully engaged clutch will allow - but that was many moons ago when petrol was five bob a gallon!

Your thoughts please?

[yeti]

Tracker - 2009-04-28 5:35 PM

 

On our way to Peterborough last Friday afternoon at 4.00 pm the bl##dy radiator sprang a leak at Tewksbury.

The local dealers there (Warners) were fantastic - they got me a new rad overnight and fitted it Saturday morning and we were on our way by 11.00 am - and the best bit was that it was all free under warranty.

What fantastic service and all with a smile and copious amounts of free coffee - at least I think it was coffee?

Anyway - I digress - as the real reason for posting this was to ask afflicted X250 owners their view on the Warners service managers answer to avoid reversing judder.

He seemed to be a very knowledgeable and genuinely helpful chap and seems to be really switched on to motorhomers and their needs.

He reckons that it IS a matter of driver technique and the only way to reverse smoothly is to slowly let the clutch almost fully out as you reverse and then dip and partly engage continuously so that the clutch pedal does not remain in one constant slipping position but is either mostly engaged or fully disengaged.

Now I am not one to tell all you experienced guys how to drive but it would be good to have some feedback as to whether this technique actually works or not?

Come to think of it this is the way that I was taught to reverse for longer distances when you need to go slower than a fully engaged clutch will allow - but that was many moons ago when petrol was five bob a gallon!

Your thoughts please?

I can only comment as a load of round spherical objects. He may be a nice chap but he is still towing the Fiat line. I would like an opinion of an Advanced Driving Instructor.

[spospe]

Tracker, your suggestion sounds possible on level(ish) ground, but up a steep hill?

[colinfrier]

Well thats how I reverse and eliminate judder but do it for 100metres and the clutch will be hot and smelling so it will not take to many such reversing manouvers to burn out the clutch.

[Melvin]

As an automotive engineering I can safely confirm the man from warner is talking out of his bottom. You can either reverse the vehicle or you cant

[Corky 8]

I,m not surprised in the least on the comment from the Warner Chap, If his livelihood depended on him selling Fiats ,then he will do what he has to do, that's up to him and his conscience, he seems to know more than Fiats ,who are concerned enough to do modifications to the gearbox even though it is a non effective Modification they are undertaking, he is sticking to the driver technique line, which I take exception to, Having drove Hgv,s like Scammel, Atkinson, Aec Mandator, and ERF with Fuller gearbox, not to mention the more modern 40 tonne Volvo's and Merc,s etc for a living, the last thing I need is some Salesman telling me its my Driving Technique,When he himself is advocating Slipping and Dipping the clutch is the way to do it. It will give you some control but at what cost to the Clutch, But My Thanks to Tracker for raising the subject with them ,it lets them know there is a growing number of people concerned about the X250 gearbox. Time will be the Judge of Fiats response

[Usinmyknaus]

Anyone taking the Warner's chap's advice had better avoid Portsmouth-Caen crossing methinks. Last summer I had to turn my vehicle and reverse along more than 200 metres of quayside and then up a steep ramp onto the boat at Portsmouth, with a shorter, repeat performance coming back from Caen. If my Renault can accomplish that at a sensible speed and without a hint of drama, why should Fiat's customers have to settle for anything less?

 

Bob

[rolandrat]

Hey Corky,

You forget to mention Foden and what about Spicer, Turner-Clarke and the best box of all the Eaton Twin-Split. That Warner guy needs educating he obviously hasn't a clue about transmissions, he should try reversing up Shap fully loaded with a proper clutch and gearbox.

I spent many a day snowed in at the Jungle cafe waiting for the snowploughs to clear a way through on trips up north. Grrrrrr. >:-) >:-) >:-)

[Guest Tracker]

If anyone who knows better would care to discuss it with Warners service department here is the link - or better still if you live near enough - visit with your van and let him show you how it should be done!

 

http://www.warners.uk.com/Products/Servicing.aspx

 

I too was sceptical when told but as I don't have one of these wretched X250s I was unable to argue the point. or ask him to prove it.

 

However I do know that Paul (sorry don't know his surname) the service manager was quite insistent that he had been able to demonstrate the technique to more than one customer and he reckons the customers went away much happier?

 

I also know that he and his team gave me fantastic service in my hour of need and for that I am very grateful.

[AndyStothert]

So lets get this straight:

This man at Warners can demonstrate how I can reverse my van up a 1 in 5 hill and prevent any gearbox or clutch damage in the process? He needs to patent his idea sharpish, and then Fiat should issue one of these chaps with every Ducato sold as it may be cheaper in the long run than the disastrous way they have handled this fiasco so far.

The only problem in our case is that the van is only a two berth. However you rich sorts with big vans could keep him in the garage, and use him purely for reversing purposes only. Or for burning or something.

What a great wind-up Rich.

[PSHORT]

Please could the man from Warners make a video of his procedure and get Fiat to send it out to all of us. Perhaps Harry Hill could introduce it

Paul

[Motorhometone]

Andy

I have read your submissions with great interest.

I am in the same dilema as "Corky"

Should I continue with the modifications or not.

Part of me says yes.

My logic is that if I do not, then should my transmission fail in the near future then Fiat may refuse support.

Part of me says no.

If I continue and develop similar problems / noises to you, then what happens.

Like many other users the M/H drives great forward and ok in reverse on the flat but uphill its dangerous.

I know its not fair to lumber you with my decisions but you are the only member who I can relate to that has the experience.

If you feel that you can, please give us your opinion.

Try and have a nice holiday.

I am away to the south coast soon fully loaded with the scooter in the garage so I do not care to think about any breakdown problems.

 

Regards

Kind Regards

 

[Mike88]

Didn't Fiat try this modification out on a motorhome before letting it loose on the public? They introduce a modification and not only does it not work it makes the van worse than before. The way this has been handled is beyond belief.

 

You couldn't make it up. Fiat should stop this nonsense now and agree to fit the new box as soon as it becomes available.

[yeti]

Come on according to Fiat spin all these mods have been tested!

Have'nt they?

[George Collings]

 

Peterborough and steep hills- surely a contradiction in terms.

 

I smell a rat or was it a burnt clutch.

 

 

 

[George Collings]

Peterborough and steep hills- surely a contradiction in terms.

 

I smell a rat or was it a burnt clutch.

 

Sorry I must of caught finger shudder at the show there last weekend

 

 

 

[AndyStothert]

I've previously dodged the question of whether, on hindsight and after the disappointing results of the modifications, I would still have had them done.

 

The answer is that I don't think we have any choice.

 

Firstly if Fiat have not yet attempted any remedial work on any individual van then, as things stand, they haven't admitted it has a fault. So in effect, in that respect, even if their attempts fail, at least you have a recognition that the fault exists, and in future years this may become important for you or any subsequent owner.

Also if they offer remedial work and you turn it down this will invalidate the warranty.

So I personally think we have to let Fiat keep digging their hole.

As for the newly introduced whines and other noises in forward mode the whine on second is not present in all circumstances and can be rectified (by another new box I suspect) and the drone at 60mph is probably (though I'm not certain) because the engine mountings weren't reinstalled properly when the gearbox was re-fitted.

I've been talking to a gearbox 'man' and he reckons the whine on second is an inherent risk of doing what Fiat have done in the gearbox, but he thinks its just pot-luck, and a fresh box may not suffer from it.

 

 

[Corky 8]

Thanks Andy,appreciate you answering a very ominous question ,I agree with you wholeheartedly,My thinking was to try to defer the Modification on my (not yet done ) Motorhome in the hope Fiat would realise this Modification is doing nothing and come up with a real Fix, but that's living in the land of Nod ,and I know your right about the Warranty issue to if you fail to have fiats Modification done, I think those of us who have not yet had the Modification done, all we can do is go with the flow but not let it rest if were not happy with the end results after all we are the customers ,Plus we dont know if the Converter,s/dealers are putting any pressure on Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen, which I doubt as a Larger Discount to them would soon quieten them, Thanks Again Andy,and have a good uneventful Holiday, no doubt this will be raised again ,as those who think they are not afflicted by the Reverse Judder will meet a situation which test,s the reversing ability of their vehicle we will then hear from them.

[colinfrier]

Ther are various views on how effective the mods are I had mine done about 6 weeks ago in Spain and I can not detect any differance going forward.There is some improvement in reverse but it is far from perfect and difficult reversing manouvers are best avoided where possible.

It may be that the new clutch is more robust and can take more slipping to control judder certainly the original could not but I am not keen to put it to the test as it will shorten its life for sure.

There is now a whine in reverse which I am told is because of straight cut gears but I don't consider that a problem.

Wher do we all go from here? FIAT say there is nothing more that can be done with the g box so

1 Develop a new gear box

2 Have the new Ford engine and gearbox fitted

3 Get FIAT to warrrenty the existing transmission for XX years

4 Legal action against FIAT to force them to to rectify the situation.

1or2 best solution but very very unlikley so 3 is the best hope but don't hold your breath any acceptable solution I am sure will need legal action.

Often with vehicle problems so bright spark comes up with a non official mod so if there are any gearbox experts out there here's a chance for you and many customers waiting!!!!!!!!

[AndyStothert]

Colin,

I may not have made myself clear enough about the revised 6 gearbox which is now being fitted to the 2.2 litre (Ford) engined Peugeots, and when stocks of the Fiat 2.3 will be used in a Fiat badged version with the 2.2 litre engine.

The gearbox is not a Ford item but a revised version of one of the gearboxes fitted in the Peugeot 120 versions and manufactured in Italy for Fiat and Peugeot.

This confusion has arisen because there are two slightly different 6 speed gearboxes being used in the 2.2 and 2.3 litre X250 - one which is used in the Fiat 2.3 litre and some of the Peugeots, and another which is being used in just the Peugeot and Citroen models.

The upshot (as far as I can ascertain from Peugeot) is that just one of these boxes has been reworked to provide a reverse gear ratio the same as 1st, and is being used in current production Peugeot/Citroen and future 2.2 litre 6 speed Fiats.

The other box - as fitted to the all 2.3 litre Fiats - and some Peugeots too, is the subject of the current and seemingly unsatisfactory re-building process with a still-higher-than-1st reverse gear ratio.

Is all that clear? If only Fiat would come clean and tell us exactly what and why they are doing what they are doing. But then again that would mean admitting that they are still selling something they know to be defective.

We all know that the there will be those who will never really meet extreme reversing circumstances with their vans, and the modifications may well prove adequate for most, but where does that leave the minority whose usage, or vehicle size and weight, means that they will never get a proper solution from modification of the present box?

All I know is that I am now well and truly fed up with Fiat and all this messing about.

That said the unhappy owners of the 3 litre and 5 speed vans haven't yet heard anything constructive from Fiat or Peugeot about what they intend to do about those, and you do wonder if some will end up in the scrapheap before this is sorted out.

[Motorhometone]

Andy,

Thanks for your response.

I will now continue with the planned Fiat modifications.

I will update this forum on the outcome.

After reading your latest submission I have to say my head now hurts.

All I want from Fiat is a product that meets the expected minimum industry standard.

After all they have managed to meet it on past models.

[AndyStothert]

Potentially good news arrived yesterday from one of the owners of a Peugeot 5 speed van (who has been chasing Peugeot's tale for months) stating that the dealer is now taking delivery of a kit of parts to lower the ratio of the reverse gear on the 5 speed box.

At the moment this only applies to the Peugeot vans, and bearing in mind the communication problems Peugeot suffer from it would be advisable for owners to start chasing them again right now.

Perhaps Fiat would like to comment on their plans for the 5 speed models and 3 litre 6 speed vans?