Fiat/Peugeot/Citroen transmission defect

[Corky 8]

Jonathan Lloyd - 2009-05-05 10:19 AM

 

Corky 8 - 2009-05-01 4:31 PM

 

Jonathan Lloyd - 2009-05-01 2:56 PM

 

8-) I,m sorry Jonathon ,I was following you as far as from the 20 respondents 14 had the judder,s, where did the remaining 44 come from, ? please expand, thank you Corky :-D

 

Hello Corky

 

For the Motorcaravanners' Report in this month's MMM I had 64 usable responses. There should only be a choice of two engines for the ranges featured. They are the 100 Multijet with five-speed gearbox and the 130 Multijet with six-speed gearbox. As the remaining 44 respondents didn't have the 130, they should have all had the 100-five-speed, though in fact two didn't and two couldn't be counted, only 40 of them.

 

Overall most readers seemed satisfied with their Fiat base vehicle, though most were aware that it is not without fault.

 

It is my personal opinion that it's not the faulty gearboxes that are the problem, it is the way it has been dealt with. I've no record of any accidents or personal injury caused by reported gearbox problems, only shattered dreams and bitter disappointment.

 

Regards

 

Jonathan

 

:-D Thank you very Much Jonathon for sparing the time to clarify that for me (MMM is always late up here) organising a MMM subscription after this, My way of looking at this differ,s slightly to yours in that having purchased Fiat after reading all the hype about it being developed with the Motorhome fraternity in mind then finding the fault on it after paying so much for it ( granted the Majority of the cost would go to the converter) This is where I agree with you, IF Fiat had come straight out and Said Yes there is a problem but we will Fix it to the customers satisfaction , Everyone would have been Fully behind them, Fiat,s response was to bury their heads and leave their bum in the air. I have already Said Ive never been a fiat fan , that said there is a lot of things I do like about the fiat side of my motorhome and I think if this problem had not occurred or had been handled better ,I would have looked at another Fiat Converted Motorhome when the time comes to trade in, We do not know what the converters have said to Fiat nor will we ever get to know I dont think, But they are the ones who can lose sales through this fiasco Hopefully Fiat are on top of it now and in the same breath lets hope they sort out the people who are still having problems after the Modification has been done to their Vehicles, Thanks again Jonathon (hope you never get writers cramp,) Corky :-D

[AndyStothert]

I think we all expected a few teething troubles when buying a brand new model, and we got them, but as Jonathan says, it was way Fiat dealt with the issue which made it worse.

That they knew about this problem in 2006, before even launching the vehicle, is indisputable, but to then continue adding insult to (mental) injury by denying a fault existed was an incorrect decision on their part.

Before it all became very public Fiat were undecided about how to handle this and I have a letter from Fiat dated October 2007 admitting that they were aware of the defect, were seeking a technical solution, and would be in contact when it was available.

Then two months later they changed their minds completely and sent me another letter stating that my van wasn't after all defective, and refused to discuss the matter any further.

Pre-internet days they may well have got away with this - as they did with the 5th gear thing on the previous model - but the decision to deny it and actively deceive their customers was what really got me foaming at the mouth.

And it still isn't sorted out - no matter what the motorhome dealers are telling everyone, as I can't recall one single owner reporting a completely successful outcome as result of the modifications to the gearbox which Fiat are presently (very slowly) undertaking.

I'm hoping to have words with a senior technical representative from Italy this week (as I know he is in the country and visiting Lancashire in the next couple of days) and ask what they are proposing next for those who are dissatisfied with what has been done so far.

Hopefully Fiat are now prepared to give us some realisitic and honest answers to these questions instead of the complete lack of technical information thus far.

 

[Melvin]

Fiat phoned this morning at 9.40 am.

 

They informed me 'that most of the converted motorhomes have been succesful, and less than you can count on 1 hand are still affected, mine being one of them', and they will arrange for it to be look at again.

 

I am now more confused than ever, I have put on this site more than once, 'has anyone had a satisfactory transmission modification' come on lads dont be shy

 

:-(

[colinfrier]

I had my 130 3500k done in Spain 18/3/09 (perfect service from the FIAT agent) but have only just been able to test it fully.I have to say there are some improvements but it's still not right.I have found no difference in driving forwards since the mods there is now a whine in reverse but I believe that to be of no consequence.

You should be able to reverse on a 1in 5 hill at a crawl without slipping and dipping the clutch but you can't.

I am reluctant to put my vehicle to the ultimate test i.e.100m slowley on a 1 in 5 to do so will entail clutch slipping and reduced clutch life you have got to have experianced this to know just how hot the original clutch gets it takes days to get rid of the smell in the cab.

I take care to aviod such manouvers where possible but knowing they do happen when least expected I want to preserve clutch life for such occassions.

It may well be that the new clutch is more robust than the original and will take more of the abuse necessary to eliminate judder.

Not sure where we go from here but keeping up the presure on FIAT is the only option at the moment.

I shall be reporting my findings to FIAT in the near future

[andy mccord]

Well i am in dilemma with regards my 9 month old X250, last week at leyburn whilst backing on a slight grassy incline, & i mean slight, it juddered, my nearest dealership is preston fiat, but after reading andys report on there efforts im not sure its worth it......yet. The only consolation is that I have time on my warranty left incase I need it, I have only read one report in this months mag of one person who is totally happy!!! yet fiat are saying the majority of mods are succesful, were are all these people??

 

Andy

 

[Corky 8]

andy mccord - 2009-05-05 3:57 PM

 

Well i am in dilemma with regards my 9 month old X250, last week at leyburn whilst backing on a slight grassy incline, & i mean slight, it juddered, my nearest dealership is preston fiat, but after reading andys report on there efforts im not sure its worth it......yet. The only consolation is that I have time on my warranty left incase I need it, I have only read one report in this months mag of one person who is totally happy!!! yet fiat are saying the majority of mods are succesful, were are all these people??

 

Andy

Andy ,have you tried reversing on a normal flat road, and then on a small incline to satisfy yourself if it was was the grass that was causing your judder ,if it does still judder if you have not already done so log your situation with Fiat UK,as the list still waiting to be done is a month or two behind the predicted Time given by Fiat to me , I dont know who else is still waiting , :-D

[AndyStothert]

The one who is happy (in MMM) is a Peugeot owner who has had the good fortune to own one of the models which required a totally new gearbox with the current production spec gear ratio as found in the Peugeot 2.2 litre 6 speed models. Don't expect these to be found in current stock new motorcaravans though for quite a while.

The 2.3 litre 6 speed Fiats continue to be supplied with the same excessively high reverse gear ratio, and the only way of even attempting to rectify these is to fit the kit of parts which Fiat are fitting to our vans.

A gearbox expert has now identified why the new reverse gear is so noisy and he tells me it it isn't because it is a straight cut gear, but a technique used in the motorcycle industry for some time where the gear is cut with rounded edges and tapering teeth to allow it to mesh with what is in effect a not quite matching set. It sounds a bit like mumbo jumbo to me, but he is confident it will work effctively in long term reliablility terms.

The effect of the grass (or gravel or soft ground) is just the same as a hill - it resists movement so the engine has to work harder, needing a bit more torque, and so more revs to find it, and untyil there is sufficient torque it judders.

The juddering is irrelevant really. It is the gear ratio which is the problem, and the engine's inability to develop the necessary torque without either slipping the clutch excessively or reversing at dangerously fast speeds up steep hills or across soft ground.

They all have the same reverse gear ratio - which is now acknowledged by Fiat and Peugeot to be excessively high - so all are at risk, in the wrong circumstances, of sustaining damage to the clutch or gearbox.

[dave42]

Corky 8 - 2009-04-28 10:02 PM

 

I,m not surprised in the least on the comment from the Warner Chap, If his livelihood depended on him selling Fiats ,then he will do what he has to do, that's up to him and his conscience,

 

This is probably being unfair to Paul. I know him because Warners have replaced two clutches on my 5 speed 2008 Boxer based Symbol in the last few months. I have found him honest, very helpful and genuinely concerned about my problems. He also gave me the same advice, after the second clutch failure, which I tried and quickly rejected after finding out just how fast the Symbol goes in reverse with the clutch out. I believe his advice was well meant but mis-guided and I have told his DP so.

 

Warners has always dealt with me in a helpful and professional way and, I believe, has a genuine desire to see the judder/clutch failure problems sorted out as soon as possible. The current lack of resolution is down to Peugeot and Fiat and I would not like to see Warners suffer because of a situation beyond their control.

[Corky 8]

dave42 - 2009-05-05 4:58 PM

 

Corky 8 - 2009-04-28 10:02 PM

 

I,m not surprised in the least on the comment from the Warner Chap, If his livelihood depended on him selling Fiats ,then he will do what he has to do, that's up to him and his conscience,

 

This is probably being unfair to Paul. I know him because Warners have replaced two clutches on my 5 speed 2008 Boxer based Symbol in the last few months. I have found him honest, very helpful and genuinely concerned about my problems. He also gave me the same advice, after the second clutch failure, which I tried and quickly rejected after finding out just how fast the Symbol goes in reverse with the clutch out. I believe his advice was well meant but mis-guided and I have told his DP so.

 

Warners has always dealt with me in a helpful and professional way and, I believe, has a genuine desire to see the judder/clutch failure problems sorted out as soon as possible. The current lack of resolution is down to Peugeot and Fiat and I would not like to see Warners suffer because of a situation beyond their control.

Dave, the comment I made was due to someone I dont know making a general comment on driving Technique which encompasses us all ,I will take your word for it that Paul is a nice person when one to one, and no doubt he is helpful when resolving problems presented to him ,I didn't intend any slight against Warner I have never had contact with them so cannot comment on Warner . I was just taken aback by his Broad statement, but if I were in his shoes I think I would be questioning the product especially if it has been returned twice for the same problem ,I am not in any way questioning your loyalties , if you get good service from Warner then they are worth sticking with., But I still reserve the right to answer (as does everyone) any misplaced innuendo about driving ability. :-D and I sincerly hope the second fix works , good luck

[Mike P]

Having given Fiat Customer Care a bit of a prod by letter, I had phone call last week apologising for the delay and telling me that I was in the queue and would be contacted in the next 3-4 weeks to take my 'van into our local main dealer (County Motors Carlisle) for the modification.

By chance I had it booked in for its first year service for today and whilst waiting, a chap came in to collect his motorhome and by earwigging the conversation I gathered he'd just had the fix. On making inquiries of the Service Administrator I gathered all they'd done was to replace the engine mounts and when I suggested I would be expecting more ie clutch, damper and replacement reverse gear she replied "but we're only doing engine mounts at the moment"!

Any comments? Apart from expletives.

Mike P

[dave42]

Corky

Please don't mis-understand my comments - they were not directed at you personally. I had been off line for a few days and was catching up on the forum and saw a series of somewhat negative comments about Warners and Paul in particular. I just wanted to point out that they have their good side as well.

I was, myself, rather alarmed at the result of testing Paul's advice and felt that it was an unsafe manouver (except in a very large empty space) due to the unexpected speed of reverse with the clutch almost or fully out. In fact, I contacted Mr Warner and suggested that Paul did not offer that advice to anyone else.

Thanks for your good wishes. Sadly, I am one of the owners of a 5 speed that judders and burns out clutches, none of which is due to my driving! I just hope Peugeot are finally getting round to sorting out the 5 speeds.

[colin]

Corky 8 - 2009-05-05 4:11 PM

 

andy mccord - 2009-05-05 3:57 PM

 

Well i am in dilemma with regards my 9 month old X250, last week at leyburn whilst backing on a slight grassy incline, & i mean slight, it juddered, my nearest dealership is preston fiat, but after reading andys report on there efforts im not sure its worth it......yet. The only consolation is that I have time on my warranty left incase I need it, I have only read one report in this months mag of one person who is totally happy!!! yet fiat are saying the majority of mods are succesful, were are all these people??

 

Andy

Andy ,have you tried reversing on a normal flat road, and then on a small incline to satisfy yourself if it was was the grass that was causing your judder ,if it does still judder if you have not already done so log your situation with Fiat UK,as the list still waiting to be done is a month or two behind the predicted Time given by Fiat to me , I dont know who else is still waiting , :-D

 

I have yet to find a tarmaced hill that will cause a PV or PVC to judder, but even a quite moderate slope on grass seems to induce severe judder, on any other van the manufacturer could claim they are only designed for road use but Fiat specificaly claim van is developed for motorhomes so they haven't got that get out.

[Corky 8]

dave42 - 2009-05-05 8:42 PM

 

Corky

Please don't mis-understand my comments - they were not directed at you personally. I had been off line for a few days and was catching up on the forum and saw a series of somewhat negative comments about Warners and Paul in particular. I just wanted to point out that they have their good side as well.

I was, myself, rather alarmed at the result of testing Paul's advice and felt that it was an unsafe manouver (except in a very large empty space) due to the unexpected speed of reverse with the clutch almost or fully out. In fact, I contacted Mr Warner and suggested that Paul did not offer that advice to anyone else.

Thanks for your good wishes. Sadly, I am one of the owners of a 5 speed that judders and burns out clutches, none of which is due to my driving! I just hope Peugeot are finally getting round to sorting out the 5 speeds.

Hello Dave, :-D Thank you I didn't take your comments as being directed at me personally, and your just as entitled to your opinions and views as the rest of us and they are valuable to this debate as it does give balance, I feel people, myself included get Frustrated at the lack of official statements from Fiat UK ,what were hearing is that some People with the judder syndrome are only being offered the mounting Brackets replacement and not the full Gearbox Modifications which will lead to even more speculation that the Modification being carried out is proving to be not working , and these stories will only continue with the lack of Fiats statement on Its policy on the Official gearbox Modifications for both the 5 and 6 speed gearboxes, I think Justin Westnedge is trying but has his hands tied by what Fiat is offering as a fix, It seems the Plot deepens

[webbocj]

My case number was given back in Oct. 2008. Not a word since. Warranty runs out 1st. June!!! Spoke to my local Fiat garage a few weeks ago and they had no info. and had not carried out any work. What a mess.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

[yeti]

webbocj - 2009-05-05 10:27 PM

 

My case number was given back in Oct. 2008. Not a word since. Warranty runs out 1st. June!!! Spoke to my local Fiat garage a few weeks ago and they had no info. and had not carried out any work. What a mess.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

How long have you had your vehicle? Did you buy it new?

I bought mine in June and it has been test driven by Assist in Warrington at the behest of Fiat. I asked the manager how long is the warranty and he told me catogorically 2 Years. I've got 13 months left.

[AndyStothert]

There have been no postings on this forum to indicate that the modification work being done by Fiat on the gearbox of the 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducatos has been totally successful.

As you all know I've been in fairly close touch with many owners who don't see the forums for the last 18 months and not a single one who has had the work done is happy with the results. Not one. But it coudl be that only the ones who aren't happy are getting back to me.

And Fiat claim that the modifications are proving to be effective.

We need to know if there is anyone out there anyone who, after properly testing their van is completely happy with the modifications. If only to make a judgement as to whether the modifications are inherently flawed, or are being bodged.

My opinion is that the reverse gear ratio is still far too high for commercial or motorcaravan applications.

Please, if you have a 6 speed Ducato which has had the gearbox modified by Fiat, and you feel that it has rectified the problem, get in contact with me, or put a posting on the forum with your conclusions and the way it was tested to arrive at them.

It seems ever so slightly bizarre that Fiat would spend such vast amounts of money on something which seems to be proving such a spectacular waste of it. Has anyone any idea why they would do this?

[webbocj]

Yeti.

Bought new 2/6/07, Knaus so only 2year warranty. Just come off the phone with my local Fiat agent, did their first work on a m/h yesterday (they are aware of some 20 local people who are waiting) Kit of parts and name of person to contact provided from Turin. Kit consisted of two mounts and a stabiliser ONLY.

chris

 

[webbocj]

UPDATE.

e mail from FIAT received on this site at 9.22 today, this certainly is BIG BROTHER is watching you. Requesting my details I gave them last year. 2.3 6speed (don't have to reply. it will be monitored!!!)

chris

[Melvin]

The man from Fiat tried to tell me on the phone yesterday morning, 'that some owners expectation are too high, they are expecting their van to perform like a 4 wheel drive'.

 

Now are not these X250's been specially designed for motorhomes, are we expecting to much to reverse on a grassed pitch with a slight gradient or even reverse up a medium gradient tarmac surface.

 

 

Fiat Customer Care handling of the whole afair and attitude has done more harm to Fiat reputation in this Uk that the transmission problem itself, too date all they have manager to do is insult our inteligence and treat use with contempt

[Corky 8]

Today, I e mailed Burstner GmbH , and informed them how frustrated I was with the Fiat saga and as a Burstner customer wanted to know if they could do anything, the Reply from Heir Rainer Steglich Burstner GmbN,was that Burstner nor its dealers had the expertise or technology to deal with this Fiat specialist subject and to get intouch with Fiat service station, and thought all its customers understood there was nothing they could do to rectify the gearbox problem, that is the gist of it ,as some of the content was lost in Heir Steglich written English ( for which I,m really grateful,) is a million times better than my written/spoken German. I can only assume Fiat,s Silence is to keep the complainants in the dark and if possible apart as one or two complaints they can ignore but a collection of complaints (as this forum) in anyone's eyes must have some common denominator,, perhaps those of us affective by this gearbox problem may have to meet and Have a rally somewhere and invite the press to air our grievances in Public . Maybe something for the Future . :-D

[yeti]

Corky 8 - 2009-05-06 7:07 PM

 

Today, I e mailed Burstner GmbH , and informed them how frustrated I was with the Fiat saga and as a Burstner customer wanted to know if they could do anything, the Reply from Heir Rainer Steglich Burstner GmbN,was that Burstner nor its dealers had the expertise or technology to deal with this Fiat specialist subject and to get intouch with Fiat service station, and thought all its customers understood there was nothing they could do to rectify the gearbox problem, that is the gist of it ,as some of the content was lost in Heir Steglich written English ( for which I,m really grateful,) is a million times better than my written/spoken German. I can only assume Fiat,s Silence is to keep the complainants in the dark and if possible apart as one or two complaints they can ignore but a collection of complaints (as this forum) in anyone's eyes must have some common denominator,, perhaps those of us affective by this gearbox problem may have to meet and Have a rally somewhere and invite the press to air our grievances in Public . Maybe something for the Future . :-D

 

I'm in for that,but would the press attend they have been less than supportive up to now especially the specialist press!!

[dave42]

Just had an email from Peugeot advising that the "fix" for my 5 speed 100PS is now available. Had a chat with Warners and they already have the parts to modify the gearbox. Booked in for the 26th when we return from the Lakes. Keeping my fingers crossed that it does the job.

[Corky 8]

dave42 - 2009-05-08 12:34 PM

 

Just had an email from Peugeot advising that the "fix" for my 5 speed 100PS is now available. Had a chat with Warners and they already have the parts to modify the gearbox. Booked in for the 26th when we return from the Lakes. Keeping my fingers crossed that it does the job.[/quote Good Luck Dave hope all goes well,

[AndyStothert]

From the parts list supplied by Peugeot to one of the owners it looks as though the 'fix kit' is a bit more comprehensive for the 5 speed box and doesn't involve the dubious use of a 'spur' gear to overcome some basic and seemingly insuperable problems within the 6 speed box.

For those who understand the significance of the use of a spur gear (and that it is a bit of a bodge) in the 6 speed box I'll let someone else explain the technical details because I'm still trying to get my limited knowledge of geraboxes around it.

 

[libby]

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