spospe Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Just to show that Fiat are not only claiming that the x250 is specially adapted / designed for motohome use in Europe, take a look at this New Zealand website: http://www.fiatprofessional.co.nz/Latest-News/Ducato/Fiat-Ducato-Motorhome/default.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 That New Zealand website is quoting a result from 'Which Motorcaravan' saying that the Ducato has won 'Best Base vehicle' for the 3rd Year !! HOW ??? doesn't anyone ever reverse these vehicles when testing them ? Not everyone coming up a single track road toward you will be prepared to reverse instead of YOU. It's an unwritten rule of the road that the Vehicle coming uphill takes priority (because it's harder to Hillstart going uphill......before Fiat's 'clever' high geared reverse of course). It might be great to drive fowards,in a perfect world that would be enough.....but it ain't a perfect world. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Michael Le Caplain of Which Motorcaravan is obviously intent on securing his pension fund to its maximum capacity. I'm not impressed with the write up details of body descriptions either. No doubt all presented to baffle future buyers. I think anyone who claims anything to be "The Best" is talking out his rear, rather like the so-called expert (of which I was termed as one in my field). Nothing but nothing is "Best". They all have different requirements. Personaly I hate these no-alls. If this Michael person really believes his article lets see him attend some events. He would not dare to be seen in one !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 libby - 2009-05-10 10:41 PM Michael Le Caplain of Which Motorcaravan is obviously intent on securing his pension fund to its maximum capacity. I'm not impressed with the write up details of body descriptions either. No doubt all presented to baffle future buyers. I think anyone who claims anything to be "The Best" is talking out his rear, rather like the so-called expert (of which I was termed as one in my field). Nothing but nothing is "Best". They all have different requirements. Personaly I hate these no-alls. If this Michael person really believes his article lets see him attend some events. He would not dare to be seen in one !! Better still I would like these 'nay sayers' in the media buy an X250 as their own vehicle and use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Very few of the magazine testers own a motorhome, so putting their money where their mouth is is not a worry to them. ALL the MMM testers own a van, and guess what, I'm the only mug with an X250. Dave Hurrell has recently bought a Transit, as has Andrew Bromley, the editor has a Renault, Clive has purchased something resembling a bus with (I think) an Iveco chassis, whilst it is rumoured that Di and Pete Johnson have ordered a 3 litre auto version of the Ducato, as there is a perception that the auto model is unaffected. In fairness to Michael Le Caplain he nominated the 3 litre auto version as the base vehicle of the year (not the manual) and he has pointed out the defect in many of his his tests. It must also be rememebered that Which Motorcaravan is very much at the mercy of the the big corporate advertisers with such a low circulation figure unable to back it up in the competitive world of selling ads in a diminishing market. My last test for Which was so extensively changed by the the editor that it didn't fairly reflect what l thought of the motorhome (resulting in a bit of a row) so it should also be considered that waht is seen in print may not be the entire view of the writer. And if they aren't ever likley to buy one then obviously a fleeting impression is all that matters........ Meanwhile my request for those who have had a successful result to the gearbox modification work to make themselves known has not drawn a single response on either forum. Fiat claim that it is proving successful and that the owners who are complaining are a minority, however we can't find a single happy owner who has had it done, and it seems that Fiat are now stalling again and reverting to the 'engine mountings only' solution whilst they evaluate the value for money they are getting from the gearbox mods. I have asked Fiat what they intend to do about our now worse-than-ever to drive Ducato (harsh going forwards and an intermittent whine in second gear) and have not even had the courtsey of an acknowledgement. What are the words for Very Fed Up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-05-11 9:06 AM Meanwhile my request for those who have had a successful result to the gearbox modification work to make themselves known has not drawn a single response on either forum. Fiat claim that it is proving successful and that the owners who are complaining are a minority, however we can't find a single happy owner who has had it done, and it seems that Fiat are now stalling again and reverting to the 'engine mountings only' solution whilst they evaluate the value for money they are getting from the gearbox mods. I have asked Fiat what they intend to do about our now worse-than-ever to drive Ducato (harsh going forwards and an intermittent whine in second gear) and have not even had the courtsey of an acknowledgement. What are the words for Very Fed Up. I have put a request on the third forum, they too have been very unhappy, to date not one happy customer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy45 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I have a Puegeot Boxer Avantgarde 115 (Elddis body) and have also noticed a judder when reversing. Am I correct in thinking Peugeot have accepted this problem applies to all Boxer conversions? Assuming so, what do you recommend is the best way to go about getting the problem resoloved? The van is under 2 years old so still under warranty. I did mention the problem to my local dealer some months ago but they said they'd never heard of it before. I showed them a cutting from MMM so it's possible they followed it up. So should I contact Peugeot direct or try my local Peugeot garage again in the hope that they may be aware of the problem since Peugeot have accepted it as such? Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Contact them both and the converter for good measure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-05-11 9:06 AM Dave Hurrell has recently bought a Transit Thats strange I'm sure I was told he had a Utopia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Yes Andy I'm well aware that an Editor controls the print copy, which makes one wonder why do we read them at all. It becomes all the more important to make one's own judgement. I do forsee enormous changes in media print over the coming years. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I had my van serviced yesterday, and as usual the judder was mentioned. They told me one owner complained of severe judder, they tested it, no real problem. Another owner reported absolutey NO problem, when tested the worst they have come across. They do not know what the answer is so are affected more than others, and some owners have totally different preceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 No doubt all the agents and dealers have been advised to act dumb !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazza454 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 libby - 2009-05-12 1:54 PM No doubt all the agents and dealers have been advised to act dumb !! Bill,Quite a few that i've had dealings with won't have to act, it comes natural to them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-05-06 8:33 AM There have been no postings on this forum to indicate that the modification work being done by Fiat on the gearbox of the 2.3 litre 6 speed Ducatos has been totally successful. As you all know I've been in fairly close touch with many owners who don't see the forums for the last 18 months and not a single one who has had the work done is happy with the results. Not one. But it coudl be that only the ones who aren't happy are getting back to me. And Fiat claim that the modifications are proving to be effective. We need to know if there is anyone out there anyone who, after properly testing their van is completely happy with the modifications. If only to make a judgement as to whether the modifications are inherently flawed, or are being bodged. My opinion is that the reverse gear ratio is still far too high for commercial or motorcaravan applications. Please, if you have a 6 speed Ducato which has had the gearbox modified by Fiat, and you feel that it has rectified the problem, get in contact with me, or put a posting on the forum with your conclusions and the way it was tested to arrive at them. It seems ever so slightly bizarre that Fiat would spend such vast amounts of money on something which seems to be proving such a spectacular waste of it. Has anyone any idea why they would do this? I cant comment re fiat mods but my peugeot boxer based Autocruise Stargazer 58 plate 6 speed box has been "fixed" by replacing guts of gearbox and changed clutch for a "heavy duty one" I have just had an unexpected trip to Inverness and back and can report that forward gears all ok , not sign of whine etc. I wish I could say same about reverse. I concede that there is a marginal improvement in that the ratio is marginally more acceptable, but judder is very much like it was before the mods. I avoided reversing onto blocks for levelling, and ensured as far as possible that any reversing was on level or slightly downhill eg off the blocks. On one occasion we had to move off uphill out of a carpark in 1st gear, turning sharp left, and having to slip the clutch to avoid stalling, and I was disgusted by the smell of burning clutch. I have been in contact with customer services before the trip insisting that they keep the file open, and stating that in my opinion the "fix" is not a proper cure. I requested that they agree to an extended warranty on both gearbox and clutch, suggesting up to 100000 miles. This was declined and the best I could get was a promise of sympathetic consideration if there was a failure of gearbox within the normal 2 year warranty period. Clutch is not covered under warranty! I was advised that there is no further action available to resolve the judder problem I am therfore one of those not happy customers from the "judder fix " point of view Peugeot please note all the correspondence is kept on file for future reference should it come to a dispute tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Well if Max Mosley has his way then maybe gearboxs will get fixed next year when Ferarri drop out of F1 and free up some of Fiats money, I note they have made major mods to this years car in double quick time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Another owner with a Peugeot 6 speed 2.2 litre who has had the gearbox oxc modifications done (as opposed to the fitting of the latest spec gearbox) has contacted me today to express his dissatisafaction with the results. Yes, it has improved a little, but no, not enough for it to be satisfactory. Peugeot tell him that as far as they are aware the gearbox modifications are all they have to offer, so he is now pursuing an extended warranty on the gearbox and clutch. So far Peugeot are not willing to discuss this. It is now apparent that Peugeot were quite right several months ago when they stated to one owner that the modificatison were not a complete solution, but just an improvement. Those who have had the work done and aren't happy can now also try the SMMT for a resolution, and we are hopeful that this course of action may just pursuade Fiat and Peugeot to come up with something else. We now know they have a 6 speed gearbox which fits the 2.2 litre Peugeots, and has a reverse gear ratio the same as 1st, but they will not tell us why this gearbox cannot be fitted (or adapted to fit) all the Peugeots and the 2.3 litre Fiats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I am still of the opinion some vehicles are worse than others because of some other characteristic. With the modifications they are still juddering and yet some vehicles it is claimed do not judder at all. If that is the case maybe a bit of lateral thinking as to what it might be, such as tyre make, tolerances on suspension mounts etc. Are left hand drive vehicles affected as much as RHD, so could it be the weight of the exhaust pipe. - just a bit of lateral thinking. Don't immediately knock these thoughts. I have an old sierra I use as a work horse. Previous exhaust pipe was fitted and every time I reversed or drove in 1st or 2nd when turning a corner there was an horrendous judder from the engine and I would have to drop the clutch , the latest exhaust has cured the problem. The weight or position of last exhaust set up the start of resonance. I have also had problems with my 2.0 JTD Ducato revesring up a slope and get severe vibration sometimes..where I just drop the clutch to stop it. A few weeks ago fitted new discs and pads - problem has gone away. SO what caused it, were the pads, very unlikely, tilting and grabbing the discs when I reversed..no idea but is a strange one to me. So Maybe FIAT engineers just are not thinking of other possibiities jumping to the conclusion it must be the ratio of reverse gear etc. remember if you get judder then that can be using a lot of energy and that has to be transmitted through say a slipping clutch if you are slipping it at the time to control speed...thats a lot more heat and a lot more burning. Cure the judder and any 'unfelt' vibrations of the engine properly then could make a big difference to the burniing clutches. So! what is different about the vehicles that judder compared to those FIAT claim do not. Make/type of tyres is just possibly one. What about the rubber bushes on suspension lower arms. If they have slop then the wheel could be vibrating back and forwards as you reverse. What about the exhaust does it start to vibrate violently first before the engine starts to vibrate. Maybe a siezed compliant joint on exhaust connection. Maybe the engine management sytstem or fueling system when vibrated is affected so once vibration starts it then acts as a feed back in the loop. Or maybe its just plain old engine dynamics and Fiat have their tolerances wrong for all the components..but then replacing mounts and clutch etc should have cured it. So either all vehicles judder and FIAT are bluffing their way through which I doubt very much. Somewhere someone has not evaluated the problem properly because it is so perverse it is unbelievable it could be the cause. In my experience in vehicle design the most horrendous of issues has usually turned out to be the hardest to solve but the most simple of remedies, and the most basic of issues which are minor but need addressing have the most complex design changes required. Thats Sod's law for you but I am sure it comes down to the original designers and engineers assuming because it is simple and basic it is not important so lack proper design reviews and testing. I was asked once to investgate a serious problem we had with a Truck manufacturer. They blamed our product but tuened out ti be a sensor on tehgearbox, which undercertain conditions would give pulses or missing pulses from teh tooth wheel in the box. The effects of this was devastating to teh smooth running of the trucjk and yet no one ever detected these false pulses using fancy electronic equipment. Everything was 100%. It took weeks to find the cause and problem, but once found was a simple remedy..put a magetic shield around the sensor...cost pennies. Now just maybe FIAT have missed something similar , when reversing the gear box sensors fr speed get upset and the engine management system goes a bit screwy and engine vibrates as a result of varying injection parameters being altered. ( when starting to move off the engine management system speeds up the idle speed of the engine - part of emission control and meeting standards as well as aiding smooth driving). Now id when reversing this engine speed up sustem is getting muddles up a bit it could be contantly tryingto raise and lowe the idle speed, this then messes up the transmission and engine and and a resonant oscillation starts...judder. Remember comfortmatic do not have a problem, but then that could be because control sytems are a little different with the engine management sytstem. I suspect the gear change and clutch control system is also providing the signals for the engine management so altering the feedback from gearbox sensors we have with no comfortmatic. Take note FIAT, this may all sound pie in the sky, and it may be so but you have failed to your surpise to find a cure. Would be ironic if all that is needed is to change the speed sensor on the gearbox. Should I post this scroll now I have typed it all up - my idle thoughts - well why not, too long for me to check over so shall post and you can all ignore as being drivel. It has to better than just posting "bump" - no offense intended. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I think the principles of what you say makes perfect sense Jon and I have often said similar things to explain why some do and some seemingly don't judder. It seems that Fiat are either unable to ask all owners for feedback - or unwilling to open that can of worms any further, more like? Maybe, if they didn't retain specific detailed data of who made what, when and where on every vehicle, they are unable to compare manufacturing production parts specifications on many vehicles to look for common denominators? Who knows - but I sure as heck ain't gonna buy one now - whereas a month or two ago I did almost consider it again. Lucky escape eh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 A very interesting theory Jon,are you an engineer. If you theory is in any way correct,not that I am dismissing it,why have the 'experts' at Fiat considered. I would expect that if you sent your theory to them it may give them another set of excuses to bambozzle us with,or you may have this effect on them!!! If only you could do a physical test on a suspect vehicle. You could use mine if you are near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Tracker. Fiat, as part of their quality control procedures, will have full traceability on all parts as to where batches have been used. Of course it may not be a batch problem but an allowed tolerance problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanYoung Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Have just collected my Swift Bolero 630EK 2008 model, Fiat Ducato 130 6 speed box, from Morgan Elliott (Fiat Professional Dealer) who have carried out the stage one modification of new engine & gearbox mounts. Their representative stated that in their opinion after testing there was a slight improvement and that is how they would respond to Fiat. No problems encountered in forward motion and since returning home I have tested it in reverse on the flat, on a slight incline and a steep hill, that I live on. The results do show an improvement in as much that following the initial take up of the drive it is possible to reverse without judder at a reasonable pace. However, there is still the initial take up where insufficient torque requires slipping the clutch or applying sufficient engine revs to provide a very rapid propulsion rearwards accompanied by the familiar judder, this is the bit that I and I suspect others find particularly daunting. I shall make my feelings known to Fiat that I am not satisfied that this fix has cured the problem and will await their next move.. Meantime I am off to Europe until mid-August and hope to only have positive results during my trip. I will make further posts as necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libby Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 I see Brambles explanations as probably exactly what the unknown reasons are. I see it all as too many variables to completely cure one problem and the reasons why some vehicles are supposidly not affected. Even structural assemblies by different mechanics can vary and produce different RF waves throughout an assembly. Isn't this why the FI racing system is so costly for just a handfull of cars? I've had a little experience on racing motorcycle frames where a problem in one area was cured by attention in another. I have my doubts there is ever an answer to this FIAT one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 i think bump made more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 how about the reverse gear ratio is still too high, the Fiat technician who rebuilt my gearbox clearly stated ' there was room for a lower reverse ratio, but Fiat obviously decide not to' As regards the SMMT I already have a case file no. they have asked for further information. I will keep you informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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