AndyStothert Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Brambles musings/daydreaming seem plausible, but after doing a lot more daydreaming than most on this topic, and having owned one, and spoken to hundreds of other owners it seems that he may have grasped the wrong bit of the stick. The judder whilst taking up the clutch is not the culprit for ruining gearboxes. It is the vibration which resonates through the whole vehicle whilst attempting to reverse at a speed slow enough to be safe on steep hills with the clutch fully disengaged. This means, at 5mph, which is still too fast in some circumstances, because of the high gearing, that the engine is spinning at tickover speed (about 800rpm). As the engine requires to be moving at about 1300rpm to generate the required torque for a steep hill the vibration at 800rpm and lack of power causes the vibration and results in the reverse gear touching the nearest bit of metal - the 2nd gear synchro cone. This is exactly what has happened to all the damaged gearboxes, and I can confirm that when ours went the first time I had the clutch fully disengaged the whole way up the hill. When the Fiat technician drove it he decided to slip the clutch a bit more to keep the engine in its comfort zone - and promptly cooked the clutch. Whether there is any real variation in the way these things will reverse is questionable and almost impossible to quantify. All the 2.3 litre vans I've driven have been very similar - but as expected with a gearing problem, the heavier they were the worse the problem. If we look at the two extremes which have now had the modifications - mine, a MWB panel van 3300kg GVW, and Melvin's a humungous coachbuilt 4250kg - prior to the mods ours would quite readily reverse on the level or a slight incline without any problems at all. Most owners would have thought there was no defect whatsoever - even though it had previously ruined a box. Melvin's wasn't happy even on the level. Everybody would realise there is an issue here. That is a huge variation, but totally predictable. After the slightly lower ratio gear has been installed Melvin's now reverses on the level without any problems, and many owners (and Fiat dealers) may think it to be OK until a hill is put in its way backwards, when it still struggles. Ours, the lightweight one, now reverses up a 1 in 5, and has done several times, which it couldn't do before. But it still feels like the gearbox is going to drop to bits, or the clutch have to take more stick than it should. In the long term this is certainly no good to me because of the places I take it, and to Melvin no use either because even a moderate hill could kill it. We all need a lower reverse gear ratio, and for the 4 ton plus vehicles using the same ratios as the lightweights is nonsense. Just plain cheap bad design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hi Andy. Musings, the word I should have used. Day dreaming - yep that as well. Can you clarify one thing. Do some vehicles judder with 1300 rpm clutch slipping or not slipping? If No, then agree my musings are off the mark if it only occurs at 800 rpm. I accept fully the gearing is too high, and clutch burn. I was under impression even when reversing at higher 'unsafe' speeds judder still occurred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 As promised I have blanked out my case no and personel details, dont be shy, the more of us who are willing to stand up and be counted, the sooner this matter will be resolved. Our Ref: / RCU -000XXXX 13 May 2009 Dear Mr XXXXX Re: Your vehicle Reg No: XXXXXXXX Model: DUCATO Motor home Thank you for your letter regarding your dispute with Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited. I am sorry to learn of the problems that you have experienced with your vehicle. Having reviewed your correspondence I believe that your case requires further investigation and have therefore referred your case to Conciliation under the terms of the Motor Industry Code of Practice for New Cars. I have forwarded a copy of your letter to Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited who will conduct an investigation into your case and provide us with a progress report or conclusion within 10 working days. It is quite normal not to receive any further communication from the Codes Advisory and Conciliation Service during this period, however you may be contacted by the manufacturer. As soon as I have been advised by Fiat Group Automobiles UK Limited of the outcome of their investigation into your complaint I will conduct a review of your case and when satisfied with the outcome I will write again. Further information about the Code Advisory and Conciliation Service and the Motor Industry Code of Practice for New Cars is available from our website www.motorindustrycodes.co.uk. Yours sincerley Sent electronically Consumer Enquiries The Society of Manufacturers & Traders Ltd. Tel:+44(0)870 7518 270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 AndyStothert - 2009-05-13 3:15 PM steep hills with the clutch fully disengaged. I had the clutch fully disengaged the whole way up the hill. Andy, forgive me questioning the above two quotes from your last message, but what exactly do you mean by "fully disengaged"? To my way of thinking "fully disengaged" would mean that the clutch pedal was fully pressed and thus the vehicle would not be moving at all. Do you mean the exact opposite and that the clutch pedal was undepressed and thus the clutch was not being slipped at all? Just curious (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Melvin, I contacted SMMT and didn't even get a reply. What is the secret of your success? Maybe you could pm me a copy of your letter so that I can use it as a template. Many thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 yeti - 2009-05-13 6:43 PM Melvin, I contacted SMMT and didn't even get a reply. What is the secret of your success? Maybe you could pm me a copy of your letter so that I can use it as a template. Many thanks in advance. I have PM you Melvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wellsgofar Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Melvin, Not wanting to be a pain, but if possibe , could you pm me with the details of you letter aswell, with numerous complaints, this can only help to solve the problem. Regards Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hi Andy. Have I realy got the total wrong end of the stick. My impression has been all along the judder not ony occurred when engine speed was low, as you say 800 RPM reversing with...... , my words, no slippage, but with higher engine speeds as well with or without clutch slipping. If it is a case of judder only occurs when the engine speed is low and the engine is labouring it is not surpising it judders. At 800 rpm with teh revvbese ratio used it wil be almost impossible to dampen the engine vibration but only reduce it somewhat unless gear ratio is improved. Totally agree with the fight to get a change to the reverse gear ratio in this respect ..no dispute or disagreement there. The previous model Ducato also has too high a reverse gear making reversing an art especially up a steep slope, and understand the 3.0 litre is a lot worse. But along along I seemed to have picked up judder occcurs at a higher speed as well which is an issue I have been tryingto understand technically as to what could cause it. I now asume this is a red herring and there is no problem if reversing at (unsafe speeds) or a slipping clutch. Is this correct? I also accept a slipping clutch will cause severe clutch burn, especially if judder is also evident as it will transfer even more energy through a slipping clutch and result in even more heat. I for one am actually extremely frustrated by the recommendation by Fiat to slip a clutch and use higher RPM to reverse up a hill. One can almost count the cost of the wear per reverse action in £s not pennies of clutch life reduction. You said I had the wrong end of the stick, and agree if judder does not occur at higher RPM. Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 13, 2009 Author Share Posted May 13, 2009 Jon, Once you have got it motoring backwards at about 15mph, even on a really steep hill, there is no problem - except of course for the change of undergarments shortly after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Melvin, Many thanks for your response. I have very little letters but I do have records and phone conversations and a complete narrative of the events. O will relate these on the form,but I don't think there is enough space!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Brambles I cannot even use 800 rpm slipping the clutch in reverse even on a smooth flat surface, the van will stall, at 1300 rpm it judders and struggles. To reverse even on my very slight gradient drive I have to use 1600 - 2000 plus and slip the clutch to minimise the judder. Following the transmission modification the first 2 occasion it reversed on the drive easily using 1300 rpm, however, this has been short lived, I am back to slipping the clutch. Prior to any transmission modification if I raised the rpm to around 1400 -1600 and slipped the clutch out by about 2000 rpm the transmission started to smooth out and you could detect the typical differntial whining. After the transmission modifications on a very smooth flat surface( ie reversing onto a Caravan Club hard standing) there is a small improvement, but reverse the van up a medium gradient it is considerably worse. The only way forward is a complete redesign of the transmission, not a diy half baked/bodged. I also have very deep suspicions the material being used in the manufacture of the gearbox/ modfication is of a poor/low grade. As an engineer Brambles you will probably agree this could be a significant explanation why these vans vary so much from identical vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Can all X250 (latest model) Ducato and Boxer owners who haven't been compelled by circumstance to reverse their vehicle up a steep hill or across a soft campsite just try to find the opportunity soon - or before the warranty expires at least. The nature of the problem, especially pertinent to the 6 speed versions, is that the reverse gear ratio is too high, so all of them have the potential to ruin the gearbox or clutch in the wrong circumstances. And we still haven't heard from a single owner who has had the gearbox modifications done by Fiat or Peugeot who is completey satisfied with the results. So it is now probably reasonable to assume that Fiat's claim that this is a definitve solution to the defect, and is proving successful, to be yet another example of their repeated corporate dishonesty. And because it is done in the name of 'business procedures' (i.e saving someone's backside and shareholders cash) doesn't make it any less dishonest by those employees of Fiat UK who are repeating it. They have been trafficking this deception around the motorcaravan publishers and the clubs again recently - that they now have a solution - whereas the owners know very different. It seems that we are dealing with a company who forces its customers to almost declare war on them to get any kind of meaningful response to a generic defect, and to fight them every inch of the way for a real solution. It is now two years since I made my origanal complaint to Fiat about this defect, and it has been an education in big business corruption. I'm going to 'earbash' all the editors again in the next week so can all of you who have had these bodged and/or unsuccessful attempts done on your vehicles please email your club or the magazines you read to put some substance to my regular rantings. And please (unhappy owners only) get in touch with the SMMT as well. email - consumer@motorindustrycodes.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Just to add to Andy's last posting, if you go to the SMMT website there is a standard pro-forma to register your complaint. Details at http://newcars.motorindustrycodes.co.uk.zn.strategiesuk.net/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Friday morning at 10.45 and I see that 'Fiat UK' are again on the forum. I do hope that they find the postings will help them with their ongoing and tireless research and efforts to make every X250 owner a satisfied customer and really keen to buy another Fiat? .............................................or something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 libby - 2009-05-13 2:53 PM I see Brambles explanations as probably exactly what the unknown reasons are. I see it all as too many variables to completely cure one problem and the reasons why some vehicles are supposidly not affected. Even structural assemblies by different mechanics can vary and produce different RF waves throughout an assembly. Isn't this why the FI racing system is so costly for just a handfull of cars? I've had a little experience on racing motorcycle frames where a problem in one area was cured by attention in another. I have my doubts there is ever an answer to this FIAT one. Libby, theyare not the unknown reasons really. They are just spurious thought and ideas. WHat is likely to make a difference and is a very much unknown is the actual coach built body on the back. There are some reports kicking about ( source VOSA) explaining when they tested some vehicles withreported judder the vibration at higher RPM was the bodywork panels and not the engine. Any vibration in the bodywork could have a very large effect on the engine judder both at low and higher RPM. I do not know much about the mule test vehicles Fiat employed, but suspect they did not really have the same characteristic as actual Motor homes in resepct of body panels and furmiture vibrating in resonance with the engine. Very much an unkown as all makes of Motorhome and models will have differemt charateristics. Something the Motorhome builders should surely have tested for themselves and therefore are also respomsible. Of course there seems no getting away from the fact if the gearing had been better for reverse none of this would have arison as a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Brambles - 2009-05-15 12:46 PM There are some reports kicking about ( source VOSA) explaining when they tested some vehicles withreported judder the vibration at higher RPM was the bodywork panels and not the engine. Any vibration in the bodywork could have a very large effect on the engine judder both at low and higher RPM. I do not know much about the mule test vehicles Fiat employed, but suspect they did not really have the same characteristic as actual Motor homes in resepct of body panels and furmiture vibrating in resonance with the engine. Very much an unkown as all makes of Motorhome and models will have differemt charateristics. Something the Motorhome builders should surely have tested for themselves and therefore are also respomsible. Of course there seems no getting away from the fact if the gearing had been better for reverse none of this would have arison as a problem. Of the four Sevel vans I've driven all where panelvans, the first was not driven in any 'testing' conditions, next two where WVM's both juddered on grass slope, last one was PVC it also juddered on grass slope. p.s. it's quite interesting to see the side panels panting in and out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Colin, Was this using high RPM greater than 1300 and slipping the clutch, or below? Jon. Ooops! just noticed your ..."p.s. it's quite interesting to see the side panels panting in and out!" Answers a question - so it is the body panels vibrating. I assumd the panel vans would not have panels vibrating as FIAT would have engineered to minimise panel resonances. Could be very relevant in diagnosing more details of the problem and why judder occurs so readily in some vehicles. Match the panel resonance to the engine resonances and you have a situation to really get things shaking up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I've never taken much interest in figures just how it 'feels' as I'm always looking in mirrors. I have slipped and/or fully engaged clutch at different revs, up very steep hills in Wales as required to maintain safe control of vehicle in real situations and sometimes it felt like judder might start but never does. As for side panels, I'm not sure how much any vibration of mirrors makes it look worse, but gf on one occastion was beside van and commented on the panels panting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I am going to the Newbury show on Saturday, will be interesting what the Sales teams say about the Judder. Could it possibly be a little bending of the truth ?? I hope (nay expect) Ricky aka Grumpy old man, to include some Juddering comments in his show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Considering Fiat state very few owners have complained about reverse gear problems this makes interesting reading, http://www.roadtestreports.co.uk/road-test-reports/Fiat/Ducato/#carreviews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Another website reporting on the judder (from the Peugeot angle) and saying that a fix has been found, but that Fiat and Citroen have yet to decide on what to do: http://www.businesscar.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3663§ioncode=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 spospe - 2009-05-16 5:41 PM Another website reporting on the judder (from the Peugeot angle) and saying that a fix has been found, but that Fiat and Citroen have yet to decide on what to do: http://www.businesscar.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=3663§ioncode=1 Hi spospe, link isnt working, Ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 It worked for me and I found my post from last October but now the links not working (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I don't know what happened with the link, but here it is again and I have checked that it is working properly: http://www.businesscar.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=1&theme=0&storycode=3663 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 I don't know how many of you also look at the Motorhomefacts forum, but there is a thread on there outlining the failure of yet another 2.3 litre clutch at a ridiculoulsy low mileage and the owners attempt to find out what work Fiat are doing on his vehicle to rectify the gearbox woes. He says that the dealers have told him that Fiat have instructed them not to discuss the work or what it entails with him. The dealer I have been using had also been instructed not to discuss anything with me, and another owner also reported this. Just what have they got to hide? Can everyone, please, bombard the magazines and clubs with letters or emails, be you a Fiat customer or potential customer, expressing your concern about the lack of progress, and the unscrupulous way Fiat are handling this matter. I have written to the editors, the clubs, and directors of the largest manufacturers, stating the real facts about Fiat's so called 'successful solution', but it needs substance from everyone else now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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