jhorsf Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 Andy not telling you what they are going to do with the van YOU OWN not Fiat is disgusting and all in the name of customer service and satisfaction , just a thought but maybe they cant tell you as they dont have a plan ( clue ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 17, 2009 Share Posted May 17, 2009 If Fiat are monitoring this site,the comments which have been made don't seem to have illicited any response. Or are they holed up in their bunker hoping it will all go away. I await with interest for any postings from the Newbury show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Isn't it time for a mass rally, this would highlight the seriousness of the lack of the response from Fiat and the media would have a field day. It is very disappointing that manufacturers and dealers are keeping a low profile and don't seem to be pressurizing them to resolve the reverse gear juddering problem. When it is stated that the problem is being caused because of driving technique then I think they are scrapeing the bottom of the barrel, a clutch either works or it doesn't and a reverse gear should be of a suitable ratio to propel the vehicle backwards without causing it to shake to bits. What planet are they off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Having been told off by Fiat via a personal E-mail for my comments I have refrained from posting on this topic, BUT now is the time to have a rally driving round Fiat UK HQ - maybee the media will be looking for a change in the news from Politics and MP's. Well done to those Manufacturers who have taken on Ford etc as a base to give us some choice. As Fiat appear to be giving Andy the brush off, then what hope for the rest of our comunity ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I have not posted in this thread before, but i am wondering what is the dealers stance in all of this. Are they informing potential customers that there is a problem, or are they also burying there heads in the sand. I am sure they wont admit to the problem if they think they have another sale possibly looming, would that not construe as mis-representing? or will they just say that things have been sorted with this and when any complaints arise its a matter for Fiat and not the dealer. Even buying used, probably returned or changed through disgust what chance that dealers are not just trying to get rid of all the problem vehicles whatever the outcome. I for one will just have to hang on another few years til all this pontification by Fiat is resolved before i will consider purchasing again. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 The dealer I bought mine from last year told me just two weeks ago that they had only ever had one problem reported (other than mine) and it was sorted out straight away. They will have sold hundreds of X250's in the last two years. I do believe that the dealers will say absolutely anything to make a sale, since after the sale they simply refer any base vehicle problems back to Fiat to resolve. My advice - don't buy a Fiat and don't believe the sales pitch or what Fiat say because neither can be trusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 18, 2009 Author Share Posted May 18, 2009 I've had loads of emails from owners, recent purchasers, and potential buyers over the last 18 months outlining the lies being spun by the dealers. Obviously they can't be named or we'll get unplugged. At the very beginning of this fiasco they just ignored the whole issue and denied everything, but as the knowledge of it grew they were forced to change their tactics. Since then the most common fib has been: 'Nah, this is the model which isn't affected' - with the model affected changing according to which van the buyer was looking at, and/or which were offering the best margins for them. The second most popular has been: 'Well yes there was a problem, but it has all been sorted out now'. Pressing them on how it has all been sorted out results in vague statements about dates and production changes. I can't name the dealer but I got an email yesterday from chap who had ordered a 3 litre manual model from a very (very) large German manufacturer and had asked up front about the transmission issues and been told that, categorically, the 3 litre models were unaffected and that the whole matter had been exaggerated with a just a single Peugeot affected to their knowledge. So he placed his deposit, but then started wondering......and sent me an email asking I knew of any 3 litre models having had problems. Upshot is that he has now cancelled his order for the Fiat based German van and agreed to buy a Ford based model. So they can't lose can they? Even when they are caught out they seem to be doing well out of it. Loads of other folk have part-exchanged their juddering Ducatos for something else and - bingo- another sale. This defect has proved a bit of a bonus for some dealers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andy mccord Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 What i cant understand is, if the reverse gear is to high then the judder effect should be predictable at all times, what i mean by this is, why does my van reverse normally on flat tarmac, but judders badly on flat grass? somethings not quite right (^) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I have just got back from Broadway Caravan Club site, I met an disgruntled owner of a Autotrail 2.3. To date he has nothing done despite reporting the problem in May 2008. He has been told nothing is wrong. His symtons were exactly the same as mine, but I have had the bodged modifications, he is getting nothing, and is under the impression Fiat are going to recall all these vans ?. He brought his van 2 weeks before me from the same dealer, and reported the problem straight away, however, the dealer told trading standards my van was the first they have heard of the problem, and no one else has complained. What a little lier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Andy That just about sums up the general thoughts of many who would be looking to buy a used x250. These vans will be 2 years old by now and if the previous owner had not reported any problems to Fiat nor had a case file, what would the warrenty be worth, USELESS!!!! There will be a lot of vans traded in which have been returned by disgruntled owners who choose another base vehicle and just got rid. Can the dealer get away with just saying that the problem does not affect this model/make, will this blatent lies not present mis-selling and therefor reportable to trading standards? Or do they offer every potential customer a trial run without hills? Is there any way joe public can check if any modifications have been carried out? paperwork etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kedavi Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 andy mccord - 2009-05-18 12:23 PM ...why does my van reverse normally on flat tarmac, but judders badly on flat grass? somethings not quite right (^) Andy Andy, There is much more rolling resistance on grass than tarmac, so your van is under more load when reversing on grass. It has a similar effect to the additional load when going uphill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Melvin, What model of Auto-trail was it that you saw on Broadway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 Rolandrat It was an Apache on a Maxi 40 chassis, unfortunately he does not use a computer and is convinced Fiat will come good, that till he meet me and my loud mouth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I can't say I've followed this sad saga very closely, but I have seen articles/letters in various leisure-vehicle-related publications, including the piece in Practical Motorhome that stated Fiat(UK)'s position regarding what was being (and would be) done to address the juddering problem in this country and what the warranty position was. As far as I can see there is still a lot of confusion as far as motorhome manufacturers, dealers and owners are concerned. I'm sure it would be helpful is someone (I guess it will have to be Andy Stothert) can summarise in simple terms what 'modifications' to existing judder-afflicted motorhomes are currently being offered and what modifications (if any) are known to be in the pipeline. My understanding (such as it is) is that, other than engine-management re-mapping (which may well apply to all Ducatos, Boxers and Relays), the only mechanical 'fixes' currently being offered (and, realistically, ever likely to be offered) just apply to motorhomes with 6-speed gearboxes and the Fiat 2.3litre motor or Peugeot/Citroen 2.2litre motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Derek Uzzell - 2009-05-19 9:54 AM I can't say I've followed this sad saga very closely, but I have seen articles/letters in various leisure-vehicle-related publications, including the piece in Practical Motorhome that stated Fiat(UK)'s position regarding what was being (and would be) done to address the juddering problem in this country and what the warranty position was. As far as I can see there is still a lot of confusion as far as motorhome manufacturers, dealers and owners are concerned. I'm sure it would be helpful is someone (I guess it will have to be Andy Stothert) can summarise in simple terms what 'modifications' to existing judder-afflicted motorhomes are currently being offered and what modifications (if any) are known to be in the pipeline. My understanding (such as it is) is that, other than engine-management re-mapping (which may well apply to all Ducatos, Boxers and Relays), the only mechanical 'fixes' currently being offered (and, realistically, ever likely to be offered) just apply to motorhomes with 6-speed gearboxes and the Fiat 2.3litre motor or Peugeot/Citroen 2.2litre motor. Hello Derek,I think Andy said he would be away for a week or two, so he may not pick up on and Answer your comments right away, and its nice to see you back on this thread, which I know doesn't effect your Motorhome ,I only wish it did not being nasty or anything here,its just that we could do with someone of your calibre to add weight to the Quest for a workable solution to this now fast becoming epic saga ,and in-line with what your saying not only is it confusing to onlookers of this thread as to what is being done in the Name of a Fix/Modification its confusing to many of us with the Problem as were not hearing anything from Fiat UK ,other than what has been said in the Publications you mentioned , Last weekend I was on the Large car park on the sea Front in Stranraer (Motorhomes allowed there)and a few of People I was speaking to said they do not buy Magazines and most of the more senior owners dont have a computer so are completely unaware of what is going on, of the three owners of the X250 based Motorhomes I have spoken with all three thought reverse gear was really fast ,two went onto relate the Italian tank story of 1 forward and five reverse gears on Italian tanks in WWII, they manage they say by slipping thier clutch ,all I could do is ask them what the long term consequences of this would be, the majority of replies was it would be someone else's problem by the time it was out of Warranty (nice if you can do that) so that endorses what Aljen was saying about when the time comes to up date/Grade his motorhome, the majority of the newer Motorhomes are on the X250 chassis will all of those trading in be aware of the problem suffered by this model will the Selling agent tell them?Will the agents tell any prospective owner any of this , I agree with you Derek someone needs to correlate the Factual Modifications now being done and also Perhaps a list of people effected (if they are willing to submit the info) with thier Names addresses Model and year of Motorhome, to be kept confidential but be available to say someone like Andy Stothert ( if he is willing) to have as proof of Numbers to not only fiat but to be available should he need it to prove his claims with any other official body, Andy would have to be asked should effected owners Agree. as a finishing word It is beyond comprehension that a International Company would single out individuals and tell them in albeit a round about way to keep thier mouths shut , What is happening to this land of free speech so vigorously deafended in two world wars by our forefathers, Beggars Belief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aljen Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Well said Corky I know i am not an owner of x250 just now, but maybe in the next couple of years, and it looks like that all these vans will be on sale somewhere, with or without the modifications. What i would like to see is everyone affected, and maybe selling on, to ensure that any works carried out on the vehicles are logged in the service docs so at least some poor soul has at least a chance of arguing with the dealer. How many dealers will be honest and admit that they have been asked about this problem from customers in the last couple of years? i think they would all know, but would rather sell the problem on. All manufacturers warranties will be long gone and i am sure that wear on the clutch is definatley not covered. I feel for all those affected just now and the head in the sand approach from Fiat and the dealers is simply dishonest. but it is also going to be an ongoing problem at least this year unless the new gearbox/clutch and will always affect future owners for a lot longer as i doubt that Fiat will ever recall all models and upgrade when the new parts are available Simply disgusted Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Unfortunately I'm still here. I was rather hoping Fiat may undo some of the damage to the way the van drives since the 'modifications' before we set off on what will be a 10,000 mile trip. But despite the letters, emails and a telephone call, Fiat have not responded. It may be because I told them I didn't trust the Customer Relations staff member I've been dealing with for the last 18 months. When all this started I did take details of owners not happy with their Ducatos and Boxers, if at first just to establish that a widespread problem did exist. I collected 300 within 4 months at the beginning of 2008, and this did prove that it was widespread enough to warrant some pressure on Fiat and Peugeot. It also almost turned into a full time job, and I was saved from going totally mental with it all by our clearing off to Europe for a few months. What the numbers are now can only be guessed at, but the actual numbers are probably irrelevant as we now know exactly what the problem is - the too high reverse gear ratio, so all of them (the 6 speed versions) are potentially at risk of gearbox or clutch damage as a result of the gearing being so ludicrously high. Because of the size of this thread and the confusion which has resulted from that, the different attitudes of Fiat and Peugeot and there being 3 different models which are all affected in slightly different ways there does seem to be some confusion. And Fiat are not helping by deliberately circulating misinformation through their Press Releases. Strangely I circulated the 'original 300' with an email which sets out how things stand with each manufacturer and model just couple of days ago and I'll sit down later to put it on here. With us due to go off again within the next week or so for quite a while (I'm still hopeful that Fiat will stop being so petty and at least re-settle the engine mountings on our van) I'm not really prepared, right now, to take on any further work on this matter. I can supply any one of the original 300 owners with all the contact details to update the list of unhappy owners, but only them as they all agreed to this free circulation of information under the terms of the Data Protection Act. I'll present what seem to be the facts later as to the modifications etc. I think Derek would have been much better at this than I am, but he has the good sense not to have one of these excellent but flawed vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yeti Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Andy, I sure I speak for all the X250 owners and thank you enormously for your valiant efforts in trying to obtain justice and fair dealing for us. You have built the foundations which can be used to continue to barrack the deaf people at Fiat. They have displayed a rude and cynical attitude to their customers. They have built their 'argument' on half truths and also the statements from,what I can only describe as, wimps. Generally the type of user who buys a van an uses it as a car with an occasional trip out usually on a Sunday to park up and read the papers and then go home or only use the large all singing and dancing sites which have very easy access. The motorcaravan is built for adventure to places like Greece,Italy,Morocco, Scotland and Wales in the winter. How can you have confidence in a vehicle that is likely to throw its clutch in such basic situations as reversing on to a pitch. Has anyone told the Caravan Club that X250 owners can't reverse onto the peg? Once again Any many thanks and enjoy your trip. To mis-quote Star Trek " We are boldly going forwards because we can't get reverse"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Andy I for one would like to endorse Yeti,s Thanks for all you have achieved thus far in this Saga and hope you enjoy your Holiday but come back refreshed to carry on with this Saga , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Hello all. I promised in a posting some time ago to update all with the details if the mods carried out on my boxer based 6 speed 2.2 ltr Autocruise Stargazer. i have now obtained a copy from the dealer of his paperwork for his warranty claim viz "investigate transmission judder when reversing ticket XXXXXXX. primary shaft and clutch fault S&F primary gear, sliding gear,and clutch unit. x pvol0000142 oil x p0000236151 sleeve x p00002311v6 primary shaft x p00002052p8 clutch kit x p0000237076 sliding gear Parts cost 490.13 Labour 887.66 total 1377.79 " As I previously reported, this has only marginally improved the judder situation, and I have requested the file be kept open in the vain hopes that a proper solution will eventually be forthcoming. tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyStothert Posted May 19, 2009 Author Share Posted May 19, 2009 Right, I've not gone yet ( though some might say different). As promised a round-up of where we stand right now, and what I have just circulated to owners whose details I hold from early 2008 after the initial thread on here and the letter in MMM. 100 series 2.2 litre 5 speed models Fiat - no comment about what they intend to do about the complaints from owners of these vans. Peugeot - have recently started fitting a lower ratio reverse gear 'kit' to the vehicles subject of a complaint. I have only heard of one being done so far, and this has proved ineffectual at improving the reversing performance of the vehicle. 3 litre 6 speed models Fiat - No comment about what they intend to do about the complaints from owners of these vans. Peugeot, after initially stating that they would be offering a solution similar to the 5 speed models and the 2.2 litre 6 speed versions ( a lower ratio reverse gear) they now seem to be confused, and aren't sure what will be happening. Some owners of Peugeot 3 litre models have had the clutch changed, but report that this has made no difference to the reversing performance. 6 speed 2.2 litre Peugeot and 2.3 litre Fiat Chaos is the only way to describe things with these models From what Peugeot owners say it appears there are 2 different gearboxes being used by Peugeot - one of which is the same as that used in the Fiat. Peugeot claim that the gearbox now being fitted to the current production 2.2 litre 6 speed vans has a reverse gear ratio the same as 1st gear and that existing vans which this box will fit are having a new gearbox fitted. I have heard of three Peugeots which have had the new box, and whilst owners seem generally happy (2 out of 3 ain't bad), it is reported as being an improvement rather than a complete cure. The variation may well be accounted for by the fact that one of them (an Autocruise) is heavier than the other two (Auto Sleepers). I have had two (that now looks like three after Tony's) Peugeot owners report that the gearbox kit (with reverse gear ratio still about 9 or 10% above 1st) is an improvement, but not a solution. Peugeot have always readily conceded that the reverse gear kit is not a complete solution, but have not yet said what future protection or solution they can offer to owners. Fiat - Firstly said they were offering a multi-stage solution which would be tailored to each individual vehicle as the defect had a multi faceted cause which was different in each vehicle. (Read 'We'll do it as cheap as possible by doing as little as possible here). The 'Engine Moutings Only' solution proved totally useless with just one owner saying it had done the job. And now he's not so sure. Fiat then stopped the engine mounting solution in motorcaravan applications (but carried on in the commercial market) and started fitting the lower ratio reverse gear kit - the same as the Peugeot kit - and not one owner who has had it done reports a completely successful outcome. I think ours is probably the best (as it is the smallest) but unfortunately they have bodged the fitting job and the van now has new 'issues' going forwards. Several other owners also say that they have various judders and whines in the gearbox since. What is readily apparent is that the 5 speed vans (with an overall lower gearing) are much less afflicted than the 6 speed varieties, though this is no consolation to the owners of those who have concerns. I have not heard of a 5 speed model which has damaged either the clutch or gearbox. The 3 litre versions seem to specialise in eating clutches, but not gearboxes. The 2. 2 litre Peugeots and 2.3 litre Fiats are omnivorous, and have an appetite for both clutches and gearboxes in extreme situations (reversing up steep hills or across soft campsites). Whilst Peugeot are still deliberating on the future of the modified vans (as they admit they still aren't perfect) from a conversation I've had today with Fiat they still aren't admitting anything or conceding that the modificatison are anything less than perfect. It's going to be another stressful winter fighting Fiat I suspect..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 I've said this before, I think that the maxi chassis may have a different dif ratio, if so maybe this might make an improvement, although it will increase revs in 6th but IMO this wouldn't be to big a problem, I have often forgotten to change up to 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Andy, I think anyone can see you have put some time and effort into this Saga to come up with such an informative and concise list of models and thier associated problems, as a johnny come lately into this thread I,m impressed by your tenacity and staying power,and I think all the other owners of the effected Vehicles could ill afford you let you give up as their unofficial spokes person on this Matter with Fiat UK, Fiat for thier Part have missed a big Coup by not fitting a new Modified Gearbox to all effected vehicles ,Thus restoring Customer confidence in the Ducato badged vehicles ,and bringing back into the fold so many Former and Prospective buyers.and it,s not yet to late for them to act,but the more bungled attempts to fix this will only show lack of competence in Fiat as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanracer Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 I think I have read all the posts on all the forums and todate I have only read about a Peugeot 5 speed that had work done and its made the matter worse and a post on this forum from a Peugeot owner with a 6 speed box who is happy. Me I have a Peugeot NO FIX. So why do I keep reading Peugeot are ahead of the game they have not tried the engine/gearbox mounts like Fiat and all they can offer is a ECU software download which even Peugeot admit either does not work or does not work in all cases. If anyone knows more please post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 August last year I was at Trewethett Farm Cornwall, a poor gentleman had a 2.2 5 speed small motorhome, his clutch failed big time, Maquis in Plymouth repaired the van. He phoned me in Febuary this year if I had heard anything, his lightweight motorhome judders so badly they are frightened to use it. The van was a Peugeot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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